How adjustable drivers actually work. Everyone should be required to watch this to be allowed to pos

[Cwebb]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412101845' post='10212993']

So I started searching around to see how other people set up driver heads for measurement. Found a very well written article from Roy McNix that actually uses Wishon photos for the article. Truly a must read article.

[url="http://mcnixgolf.com/go-low/lie-loft/"]http://mcnixgolf.com/go-low/lie-loft/[/url]

As I read through the article a few times, two statements stood out:

[i]if the head is not positioned properly for lie and face angle, the loft measurement will never be correct.[/i]
&
[i]In this position, the score lines will almost never be parallel with the base of the specs machine.[/i]

[/quote]

If I recall, this article was actually written by Tom Wishon. He then gave his clubmakers permission to use the article on their websites

[cspin]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1412215647' post='10221151']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412192825' post='10219193']
From Pg 6 of report
[attachment=2440619:IMG_2613.JPG]
[/quote]

Well, in just looking at that picture, it does look like that setup is the lie angle in this case. I see equal space on either side of the center touch point. If it was setup too upright, we would see more space on the heel side of the touch point
[/quote]

The referenced quote from Pg 6 of the report states that "all four of the drivers were manufactured with score lines parallel to the ground line tangent..." I have read but not studied all the posts in this thread, but it sure seems that Tom has clearly explained that he does not rely on score lines when measuring with the green machine, but would consider them after knowing that they were in fact parallel. I believe he would have tested each driver first, before placing them in the green machine based on score lines. If I am off in my interpretation it is likely because I have not studied this close enough, or simply do not understand all the minutia. I am also sure someone will point out if I am off base, and the report does indeed support the position that rybo suggests.

Interesting topic, just wonder now whether my hand selected component driver (not Wishon) which is said to be 10* loft and 1* open, is in fact that. I have been to many different club makers who come up with different measurements on drivers and fairway woods. Who new it was that difficult to accurately measure loft, lie and face angle.

[Redhaze737]

I have not read this entire thread, but did ask Mr. Wishon to send me his analysis. I play a Titleist and like it, but laughed my butt off after reading the true specs of the adjustable head. What an eye opener. I wondered why when I adjusted the loft the ball still seemed to go pretty much where the previous setting sent it.

[ImBurningStarIV]

Not sure why everyone keeps jumping on rybo, he makes a compelling argument. And why can't we have a bit of a debate in this thread? I'm personally learning from this from both Tom and rybo, even though I feel like every Tom Wishon post is about how he's been designing clubs for 30 years, and all major OEM adjustable drivers don't work because they're all 14° loft and 12° open on every setting.

[ronsc1985]

[quote name='ImBurningStarIV' timestamp='1412258497' post='10223477']
Not sure why everyone keeps jumping on rybo, he makes a compelling argument. And why can't we have a bit of a debate in this thread?
[/quote]

Simple, groupies act like groupies.

Those with an formal engineering or science based education tend to be more skeptical of "it's my way or the highway" analysis especially if there is a financial interest involved.

[Ri_Redneck]

Absolutely amazing. If any of you who believe that adjustable hosels do nothing get your irons bent to specific specs, you're nothing but a hypocrite. It's the same freakin' thing. Changing the loft is changing the loft!

WOW!!

BT

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412359738' post='10230585']
Absolutely amazing. If any of you who believe that adjustable hosels do nothing get your irons bent to specific specs, you're nothing but a hypocrite. It's the same freakin' thing. Changing the loft is changing the loft!

WOW!!

BT
[/quote]

It's also the same thing on putters....even large mallet putters that have a very pronounced way in which they want to sit (face angle spec). The only way to adjust loft on a putter, is through "effective loft" or what the loft is at a 0* face angle

[Farrow]

[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1412193220' post='10219215']
plz god make this joker stop posting. You are not going to win a technical argument with Tom Wishon. You sound down right argumentative and disrespectful to one of the most cherished contributors to this site. Tom goes out of his way to answer questions and enlighten us here when he is under no obligation to. Show some respect.
[/quote]

Why not question someone else's opinions? Just because Tom has been selling golf clubs for a few decades doesn't mean he's the end all of everything golf. He's got a pony in the race so of course he's going to push his product. Without a doubt he has fan base on this site, but just because someone provides their own evidence doesn't mean they are argumentative or a joker. Obviously the real OEM's have fairly unanimously decided a new method of loft measurement was needed and the biggest point of contention I think people really have with Tom's opinions, especially myself, is about the usefulness of the adjustable golf clubs.

In reality, the adjustable technology is probably the greatest thing that has ever happened to the average consumer. It makes the fitter's job easier and it gives the consumer the ability to have a club fully set up to their specs. No longer do you have to grab ten drivers off the rack and try to find the one that sits most closely to your favored face angle. You can try multiple shafts to find which works best, and compare them back to back rather than trying one, figuring out you don't like it, then waiting for the club to be reshafted only to go do it all over again. With fixed hosel drivers this could take days or even weeks, now it can take less than an hour with a few turns of a wrench.

No matter how you measure a head, whether you choose to do it the modern way or the old way, the performance of the modern technology is undeniable.

[pingfool]

[quote name='Farrow' timestamp='1412464242' post='10236497']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1412193220' post='10219215']
plz god make this joker stop posting. You are not going to win a technical argument with Tom Wishon. You sound down right argumentative and disrespectful to one of the most cherished contributors to this site. Tom goes out of his way to answer questions and enlighten us here when he is under no obligation to. Show some respect.
[/quote]

Why not question someone else's opinions? Just because Tom has been selling golf clubs for a few decades doesn't mean he's the end all of everything golf. H[i][b]e's got a pony in the race so of course he's going to push his product.[/b][/i] Without a doubt he has fan base on this site, but just because someone provides their own evidence doesn't mean they are argumentative or a joker. Obviously the real OEM's have fairly unanimously decided a new method of loft measurement was needed and the biggest point of contention I think people really have with Tom's opinions, especially myself, is about the usefulness of the adjustable golf clubs.

In reality, [i][b]the ble technology is probably the greatest thing that has ever happened to the average consumeadjustar[/b][/i]. It makes the fitter's job easier and it gives the consumer the ability to have a club fully set up to their specs. No longer do you have to grab ten drivers off the rack and try to find the one that sits most closely to your favored face angle. You can try multiple shafts to find which works best, and compare them back to back rather than trying one, figuring out you don't like it, then waiting for the club to be reshafted only to go do it all over again. With fixed hosel drivers this could take days or even weeks, now it can take less than an hour with a few turns of a wrench.

No matter how you measure a head, whether you choose to do it the modern way or the old way, the [i][b]performance of the modern technology is undeniable.[/b][/i]
[/quote]

bravo -

took 6pgs for someone to nail it - thank you

consider this coffin closed

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412193566' post='10219241']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1412193220' post='10219215']
plz god make this joker stop posting. You are not going to win a technical argument with Tom Wishon. You sound down right argumentative and disrespectful to one of the most cherished contributors to this site. Tom goes out of his way to answer questions and enlighten us here when he is under no obligation to. Show some respect.
[/quote]
How am I being disrespectful? I have posted my opinion, provided compelling supportive information for my opinions and beyond, no rude comments, included pictures, etc.
[/quote]hmmm? look at the ratio of likes to posts for Mr. Rybo.

[cxx]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1412473515' post='10237241']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412193566' post='10219241']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1412193220' post='10219215']
plz god make this joker stop posting. You are not going to win a technical argument with Tom Wishon. You sound down right argumentative and disrespectful to one of the most cherished contributors to this site. Tom goes out of his way to answer questions and enlighten us here when he is under no obligation to. Show some respect.
[/quote]
How am I being disrespectful? I have posted my opinion, provided compelling supportive information for my opinions and beyond, no rude comments, included pictures, etc.
[/quote]hmmm? look at the ratio of likes to posts for Mr. Rybo.
[/quote]

I suppose for some it is about popularity.

[Farrow]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1412514540' post='10238555']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1412473515' post='10237241']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412193566' post='10219241']
[quote name='Albatross85' timestamp='1412193220' post='10219215']
plz god make this joker stop posting. You are not going to win a technical argument with Tom Wishon. You sound down right argumentative and disrespectful to one of the most cherished contributors to this site. Tom goes out of his way to answer questions and enlighten us here when he is under no obligation to. Show some respect.
[/quote]
How am I being disrespectful? I have posted my opinion, provided compelling supportive information for my opinions and beyond, no rude comments, included pictures, etc.
[/quote]hmmm? look at the ratio of likes to posts for Mr. Rybo.
[/quote]

I suppose for some it is about popularity.
[/quote]

I think what Tom Gski is trying to say is not that this is a popularity contest. If that were so I'm sure TW has enough fanboys on this site to "win". Rather Rybo seems to have plenty of people that agree with him, and therefore they've "liked" the posts they agree with.

[rybo]

After some thought I believe when Maltby states 1*loft:1*Face angle he is referring to a the rotation of an unsoled club. Take a 0* face angle club and rotate the shaft 90*. The loft and face angle move at a constant 1:1 ratio.

For those who state .5* Loft:1* Face Angle I believe this comes from the fact of needing an equal amount of opposing movement to offset any change.

If I did the math correct, I now believe when Tom states a .6*:1* loft to face angle, it really is .67*/1* loft to face angle. Also can not make the .6* work mathematically. On the other hand, .67* works across both Taylormade and Titleist.


Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points?

[jewofgolf]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
After some thought I believe when Maltby states 1*loft:1*Face angle he is referring to a the rotation of an unsoled club. Take a 0* face angle club and rotate the shaft 90*. The loft and face angle move at a constant 1:1 ratio.

For those who state .5* Loft:1* Face Angle I believe this comes from the fact of needing an equal amount of opposing movement to offset any change.

If I did the math correct, I now believe when Tom states a .6*:1* loft to face angle, it really is .67*/1* loft to face angle. Also can not make the .6* work mathematically. On the other hand, .67* works across both Taylormade and Titleist.


Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points?
[/quote]

The .5* effective loft change for every 1* of face angle change from the sin(30*) = .50

That is, based on a 60* lie angle, you can use that rule of thumb.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
After some thought I believe when Maltby states 1*loft:1*Face angle he is referring to a the rotation of an unsoled club. Take a 0* face angle club and rotate the shaft 90*. The loft and face angle move at a constant 1:1 ratio.

For those who state .5* Loft:1* Face Angle I believe this comes from the fact of needing an equal amount of opposing movement to offset any change.

If I did the math correct, I now believe when Tom states a .6*:1* loft to face angle, it really is .67*/1* loft to face angle. Also can not make the .6* work mathematically. On the other hand, .67* works across both Taylormade and Titleist.


[b]Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points? [/b]
[/quote]

With the Smart Pad, the touch point does not change with the loft adjustments. The common touchpoint is the thin raised "pad" just behind the face on the sole of the head about 1/2" wide. Every other part of the sole rises from there. It gives about the same contact area as an iron. Thus, the golfer does not get the impression that the wood actually soles itself, it more or less is squared up just like an iron. Yeah, it's tiny and in firm grass like bermuda, it's not gonna matter a bit. But then, do any of them? I have played the ACP since it came out and can attest that the face can be easily oriented regardless of the loft setting.I also have a sack full of other drivers (as most others here do) and can attest that they do not have this same characteristic.

However, as Tom and many others here are aware, I am an anomaly. I square the clubface with my grip. I DO NOT depend on the natural soling point of the club to set the face because I DO NOT believe the turf on a given golf course is consistent enough to be dependable to do that. Apparently this goes against the common practice of most golfers, but I refuse to believe it is wrong. I do it with my irons, why not with my woods? So, face angle as a fitting parameter, is a moot point IMHO.

BT

[Dinosaur]

I have a question for Tom, Rybo or whomever......I have two drivers, both with lofts of 10.5. One is the R7 Limited, the other is an older Burner with Super Steel Sole and Bubble shaft. The burner is more prone to sky balling than the R-7. Surely, it is my swing, but is something I notice lately. fwiw, both have the same length shaft. The older Burner has the smaller head obviously, not much larger than the old persimmons.

edit: I guess I should add, that I only have noticed this because I am hitting both from a mat and rubber tee which is higher than I would normally be hitting from on the course. (may have just answered my own question, but will wait for your responses if you are so inclined).

[cspin]

Many of these posts seem to be overlooking a very fundamental concept. When you hold your driver at address and are set up to your target line, the shaft is going to extend from the club head in a certain direction (up, down, forward, backward) to where you are gripping the club in your hands. On a [u]non-adjustable[/u] driver the golfer needs to physically move the shaft up, down, forward or backward by moving the grip to affect loft, lie and face angle. This can be done with the club on the ground or in the air. If the club is built properly, the club head should have the correct loft, lie and face angle at the point where your hands are accustomed to being at address/impact. Everyone holds the club in a certain position, and that should not be altered to achieve desired loft, lie and face angle. In other words, why should the golfer manipulate his/her hands (and thus the shaft) into a position to where the club [u]then[/u] has the desired loft, lie and face angle?! I recognize that where you start is not necessarily where you will be at impact, but altering your starting position (whether the club is soled on the ground or hovering in the air) would have to require swing adjustments to get the club back to where it needs to be at impact.

I do not see how this concept changes when dealing with [u]adjustable[/u] woods. The adjustability does not change the physical dimensions of the head of the club, rather the angle in which the shaft extends out of it. You may be able to hover the club in the air to avoid the grounds influence on the sole of the club, but that does not change the fact that the shaft is in any number of different locations in your setup based on how the shaft is adjusted. You could adjust the shaft so that it is in the position that you are accustom to holding the club at, but the loft, lie and face angle are going to be affected. If you find the combination of a head that is in the desired orientation you need for best results, and the shaft exits that head at the proper angle to where it ends up in the position where you typically hold the club in your set-up, you have accomplished pretty much all that is possible from a fitting standpoint. That is no different if you have an adjustable or non-adjustable driver.

The loft, lie and face angle on a wood cannot be changed, regardless of whether it is soled or hovered in the air. The club head "is what it is." What can be changed (whether through adjustable shaft adapters, manually bending hosels, etc.) is the orientation of where the club head is at in relation to your hands (which are holding the grip). This is no different on woods that have sole plates that have minimal contact with the ground at address (previously mentioned Cobra Smartpad sole). The handle of the club most still be moved (either manually or by adjustment) to make the unchangeable and "built-in" loft, lie and face angle on a wood head change.

I am admittedly not an engineer or math wiz, but am fairly confident that the above is correct. There may be a better way of explaining it. Perhaps an example would be to consider a 3" x 3" x 3" square box on the end of a shaft. The square box "is what it is." It has 0* of loft and 0* face angle when square to the target line. If the bottom of the box is sitting on the ground (or hovering in the air parallel to the ground) the shaft would come out the corner of the box at a certain angle until it reaches your hands. Moving your hands (with the grip in them) in different directions will change all the angles of the box on the end of the shaft. The same thing happens if the shaft were to be adjusted at the point where it enters the box. If you adjust the shaft orientation coming out of the box but keep your hands in the same location as you always do in your set up, it will result in the box having different loft, lie and face angles.

[rybo]

[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412743993' post='10253631']
Many of these posts seem to be overlooking a very fundamental concept. When you hold your driver at address and are set up to your target line, the shaft is going to extend from the club head in a certain direction (up, down, forward, backward) to where you are gripping the club in your hands. [size=5][b] On a [u]non-adjustable[/u] driver the golfer needs to physically move the shaft up, down, forward or backward by moving the grip to affect loft, lie and face angle.[/b][/size] This can be done with the club on the ground or in the air. If the club is built properly, the club head should have the correct loft, lie and face angle at the point where your hands are accustomed to being at address/impact. Everyone holds the club in a certain position, and that should not be altered to achieve desired loft, lie and face angle. In other words, why should the golfer manipulate his/her hands (and thus the shaft) into a position to where the club [u]then[/u] has the desired loft, lie and face angle?! I recognize that where you start is not necessarily where you will be at impact, but altering your starting position (whether the club is soled on the ground or hovering in the air) would have to require swing adjustments to get the club back to where it needs to be at impact.
[/quote]

This is at the heart of the issue being discussed; and the issue is there is another way to effect loft/face angle........by simply rotating the the shaft while maintaining the lie angle. The handle of the club does not change location and the face angle can be opened or closed which causes a change in loft. When this rotation occurs the club can no longer be soled AND maintain the handle of the club in the same location. The handle of the club only changes location when soled. [b]This is why a shaft rotation of 1* open face angle will add loft and a bend or adjustment of a hosel to a 1* open face angle will decrease loft.[/b]

A 1* Face angle : .67* loft is the outcome when the shaft is simply rotated and the clubhead is not soled after the rotation.

A 1* Face angle : .5* loft is the outcome when hosel is adjusted or bent


Now this is where the R1 in theory provides a solution to both of these in one package. The FCT hosel changes the loft at 1*:.5* and the ASP changes face angle to loft at 1.33*:.67* loft.

The reason TM chose the change of 1.33* for the ASP is this is the equally opposing amount of a .67* loft change that occurs when the shaft is simply rotated.


Now what I am trying to figure out is where is Titleist's starting point for loft/face angle. They use a dual axis hosel so there are another set of variables involved. For the ring with the number settings, they change FA:loft at 1* : .75*; and this ratio in fractional terms is 1*/.75*=1.33*. So I a I am starting to think Titleist is jumping directly to the .67* rotational loft change. The ring with the letter settings, they again change face angle and loft at the same rate of change just in a smaller amount. They have a few other things going on with the fact they emphatically state all lofts are 'effective lofts' which means the lofts are when the club is not soled and that the standard A1 setting will have a .5* open face angle. So there are many things to account for when trying to figure out exactly where Titleist is starting from and I have just not spent enough time doing the calculations to figure out the movements.

The Titleist and TaylorMade hosels change loft/face angles to lie angles in much different ways. Titleist is a 4 x 4 box with constant lie angles and Taylormade has a constant rise and fall of both loft/FA and lie angles. Titleist also seems to be working more in what TM calls the upright settings. Below is a plot of the FA/loft to lie angle.
[attachment=2449825:IMG_2636.JPG]

[rybo]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412714710' post='10251077']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
[b]Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points? [/b]
[/quote]

With the Smart Pad, the touch point does not change with the loft adjustments. The common touchpoint is the thin raised "pad" just behind the face on the sole of the head about 1/2" wide. Every other part of the sole rises from there. It gives about the same contact area as an iron. Thus, the golfer does not get the impression that the wood actually soles itself, it more or less is squared up just like an iron. Yeah, it's tiny and in firm grass like bermuda, it's not gonna matter a bit. But then, do any of them? I have played the ACP since it came out and can attest that the face can be easily oriented regardless of the loft setting.I also have a sack full of other drivers (as most others here do) and can attest that they do not have this same characteristic.

However, as Tom and many others here are aware, I am an anomaly. I square the clubface with my grip. I DO NOT depend on the natural soling point of the club to set the face because I DO NOT believe the turf on a given golf course is consistent enough to be dependable to do that. Apparently this goes against the common practice of most golfers, but I refuse to believe it is wrong. I do it with my irons, why not with my woods? So, face angle as a fitting parameter, is a moot point IMHO.

BT
[/quote]

I agree the common touch point is the thin raised pad, however when you change loft via the hosel, the touch point along the pad has to move to maintain a square face angle. The smartpad is quite similar to TM's ASP on the R1, except it is the closer to the face so a much smaller amount of corrective FA is needed to keep the club head sitting square.

[Fixxin' Stixx]

As a clubmaker, I ensure the client is fully aware of the ramifications of spine aligning the shaft and setting it in a neutral (A1 for Titleist) position unless they have a specific setting to accommodate (natural draw/fade). In essence, the adjustable clubhead really doesn't allow for exploiting the various settings unless you have a completely balanced shaft, which means without a spine/flat line/NBD, which is almost impossible.

[Dinosaur]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412773273' post='10254401']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412714710' post='10251077']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
[b]Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points? [/b]
[/quote]

With the Smart Pad, the touch point does not change with the loft adjustments. The common touchpoint is the thin raised "pad" just behind the face on the sole of the head about 1/2" wide. Every other part of the sole rises from there. It gives about the same contact area as an iron. Thus, the golfer does not get the impression that the wood actually soles itself, it more or less is squared up just like an iron. Yeah, it's tiny and in firm grass like bermuda, it's not gonna matter a bit. But then, do any of them? I have played the ACP since it came out and can attest that the face can be easily oriented regardless of the loft setting.I also have a sack full of other drivers (as most others here do) and can attest that they do not have this same characteristic.

However, as Tom and many others here are aware, I am an anomaly. I square the clubface with my grip. I DO NOT depend on the natural soling point of the club to set the face because I DO NOT believe the turf on a given golf course is consistent enough to be dependable to do that. Apparently this goes against the common practice of most golfers, but I refuse to believe it is wrong. I do it with my irons, why not with my woods? So, face angle as a fitting parameter, is a moot point IMHO.

BT
[/quote]

I agree the common touch point is the thin raised pad, however when you change loft via the hosel, the touch point along the pad has to move to maintain a square face angle. The smartpad is quite similar to TM's ASP on the R1, except it is the closer to the face so a much smaller amount of corrective FA is needed to keep the club head sitting square.
[/quote]

I am not knowledgeable enough to warrant even commenting on this thread, but in regards to the club "self soling", it reminds me of a golfer I met in the Navy. He gave a demonstration during a instructors school and brought to class several persimmon drivers. He explained that the easiest and consistent way to sole the club was to grasp it loosely in the hands, rest it on the ground in reverse orientation, toe down, and release the grip. The club would just roll over and according to him, be in the correct position. His name was of all things, Johnny Walker. This was some 40 years or so ago.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412773273' post='10254401']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412714710' post='10251077']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
[b]Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points? [/b]
[/quote]

With the Smart Pad, the touch point does not change with the loft adjustments. The common touchpoint is the thin raised "pad" just behind the face on the sole of the head about 1/2" wide. Every other part of the sole rises from there. It gives about the same contact area as an iron. Thus, the golfer does not get the impression that the wood actually soles itself, it more or less is squared up just like an iron. Yeah, it's tiny and in firm grass like bermuda, it's not gonna matter a bit. But then, do any of them? I have played the ACP since it came out and can attest that the face can be easily oriented regardless of the loft setting.I also have a sack full of other drivers (as most others here do) and can attest that they do not have this same characteristic.

However, as Tom and many others here are aware, I am an anomaly. I square the clubface with my grip. I DO NOT depend on the natural soling point of the club to set the face because I DO NOT believe the turf on a given golf course is consistent enough to be dependable to do that. Apparently this goes against the common practice of most golfers, but I refuse to believe it is wrong. I do it with my irons, why not with my woods? So, face angle as a fitting parameter, is a moot point IMHO.

BT
[/quote]

I agree the common touch point is the thin raised pad, however when you change loft via the hosel, the touch point along the pad has to move to maintain a square face angle. The smartpad is quite similar to TM's ASP on the R1, except it is the closer to the face so a much smaller amount of corrective FA is needed to keep the club head sitting square.
[/quote]

The TM ASP works in conjunction with the leading edge of the sole, which also rests on the ground. Since these two parts are relatively far apart compared to the small footprint of the Smart Pad, I do not agree with your analogy here. The Cobra woods head, IMHO, are made for golfers like me who want the sole of our driver and FWs to influence the shot as little as possible. The TM ASP, I believe, was added to negate the FA change that happens when their hosel adapter is adjusted.

And YES, I DO use the R11 FWs. However, I have the ASP cranked to it's most open setting and the ACP typically set anywhere from Std to Lower so that I really only deal with the front part of the sole interacting with the turf. Just wanted to point that out before someone else did.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412743993' post='10253631']
Many of these posts seem to be overlooking a very fundamental concept. When you hold your driver at address and are set up to your target line, the shaft is going to extend from the club head in a certain direction (up, down, forward, backward) to where you are gripping the club in your hands. On a [u]non-adjustable[/u] driver the golfer needs to physically move the shaft up, down, forward or backward by moving the grip to affect loft, lie and face angle. This can be done with the club on the ground or in the air. If the club is built properly, the club head should have the correct loft, lie and face angle at the point where your hands are accustomed to being at address/impact. Everyone holds the club in a certain position, and that should not be altered to achieve desired loft, lie and face angle. In other words, why should the golfer manipulate his/her hands (and thus the shaft) into a position to where the club [u]then[/u] has the desired loft, lie and face angle?! I recognize that where you start is not necessarily where you will be at impact, but altering your starting position (whether the club is soled on the ground or hovering in the air) would have to require swing adjustments to get the club back to where it needs to be at impact.

I do not see how this concept changes when dealing with [u]adjustable[/u] woods. The adjustability does not change the physical dimensions of the head of the club, rather the angle in which the shaft extends out of it. You may be able to hover the club in the air to avoid the grounds influence on the sole of the club, but that does not change the fact that the shaft is in any number of different locations in your setup based on how the shaft is adjusted. You could adjust the shaft so that it is in the position that you are accustom to holding the club at, but the loft, lie and face angle are going to be affected. If you find the combination of a head that is in the desired orientation you need for best results, and the shaft exits that head at the proper angle to where it ends up in the position where you typically hold the club in your set-up, you have accomplished pretty much all that is possible from a fitting standpoint. That is no different if you have an adjustable or non-adjustable driver.

The loft, lie and face angle on a wood cannot be changed, regardless of whether it is soled or hovered in the air. The club head "is what it is." What can be changed (whether through adjustable shaft adapters, manually bending hosels, etc.) is the orientation of where the club head is at in relation to your hands (which are holding the grip). This is no different on woods that have sole plates that have minimal contact with the ground at address (previously mentioned Cobra Smartpad sole). The handle of the club most still be moved (either manually or by adjustment) to make the unchangeable and "built-in" loft, lie and face angle on a wood head change.

I am admittedly not an engineer or math wiz, but am fairly confident that the above is correct. There may be a better way of explaining it. Perhaps an example would be to consider a 3" x 3" x 3" square box on the end of a shaft. The square box "is what it is." It has 0* of loft and 0* face angle when square to the target line. If the bottom of the box is sitting on the ground (or hovering in the air parallel to the ground) the shaft would come out the corner of the box at a certain angle until it reaches your hands. Moving your hands (with the grip in them) in different directions will change all the angles of the box on the end of the shaft. The same thing happens if the shaft were to be adjusted at the point where it enters the box. If you adjust the shaft orientation coming out of the box but keep your hands in the same location as you always do in your set up, it will result in the box having different loft, lie and face angles.
[/quote]

I agree with your entire post. The only thing I would like to mention is something that gets lost in this whole measurement argument. I play golf. I don't measure the clubheads (any more). That being said, knowing what the loft of a given clubhead is and how it is measured allows me to know what loft I am preparing to present to the ball when I hold the club is a specific manner, REGARDLESS of how accurate I am able to do that. For years people have been accepting the loft printed on the clubheads with no issues. Suddenly when they can adjust it, all h*ll breaks loose and no one knows what the loft is any more. Really, nothing changed in the general design of the clubhead except the ability to slightly tilt the shaft in the bore. The same thing Tom did with his design years ago, just a little easier to do. All the arguments about the FA to Loft ratio is nothing but math. At a 45* lie, it's 1:1. Changing the lie, changes the ratio. With the current group of driver lie angles being from 58 to 62, it's ballpark 1: .65. No one can discern with .5* loft change anyway, so the heads are marked fine to begin with and all the adjustment tables are close enough for the avg. golfer.

People have gotten so caught up in the numbers these days that they have forgotten to just swing the club.

BT

[rybo]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412791078' post='10255977']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412773273' post='10254401']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412714710' post='10251077']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
[b]Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points? [/b]
[/quote]

With the Smart Pad, the touch point does not change with the loft adjustments. The common touchpoint is the thin raised "pad" just behind the face on the sole of the head about 1/2" wide. Every other part of the sole rises from there. It gives about the same contact area as an iron. Thus, the golfer does not get the impression that the wood actually soles itself, it more or less is squared up just like an iron. Yeah, it's tiny and in firm grass like bermuda, it's not gonna matter a bit. But then, do any of them? I have played the ACP since it came out and can attest that the face can be easily oriented regardless of the loft setting.I also have a sack full of other drivers (as most others here do) and can attest that they do not have this same characteristic.

However, as Tom and many others here are aware, I am an anomaly. I square the clubface with my grip. I DO NOT depend on the natural soling point of the club to set the face because I DO NOT believe the turf on a given golf course is consistent enough to be dependable to do that. Apparently this goes against the common practice of most golfers, but I refuse to believe it is wrong. I do it with my irons, why not with my woods? So, face angle as a fitting parameter, is a moot point IMHO.

BT
[/quote]

I agree the common touch point is the thin raised pad, however when you change loft via the hosel, the touch point along the pad has to move to maintain a square face angle. The smartpad is quite similar to TM's ASP on the R1, except it is the closer to the face so a much smaller amount of corrective FA is needed to keep the club head sitting square.
[/quote]

The TM ASP works in conjunction with the leading edge of the sole, which also rests on the ground. Since these two parts are relatively far apart compared to the small footprint of the Smart Pad, I do not agree with your analogy here. The Cobra woods head, IMHO, are made for golfers like me who want the sole of our driver and FWs to influence the shot as little as possible. The TM ASP, I believe, was added to negate the FA change that happens when their hosel adapter is adjusted.

And YES, I DO use the R11 FWs. However, I have the ASP cranked to it's most open setting and the ACP typically set anywhere from Std to Lower so that I really only deal with the front part of the sole interacting with the turf. Just wanted to point that out before someone else did.

BT
[/quote]

BT,

If there is a FA/loft change via the hosel then there has to be equally opposite amount of FA/loft by some other means for the face angle to sit square. There is no way around this. The Smartpad simply changes the sole point for the leading edge. I know you have some type of a machinist background, so soling points are datum targets.

There is a huge difference between changing face angle via the ASP vs the FCT. The ASP changes the soled loft, while the FCT changes the effective loft. While it works the same on a R11s fairway wood, the change is not as noticeable as it is on the R1. Take the R1 in the 10* loft setting, N ASP setting, there are two ways to change face angle. You could leave the FCT at 10* and move the ASP either 1.33*, 2.66* or 4* open and closed. Changing face angle this way is the equivalent to rotating the shaft and there will be a measurable soled loft change. The other option is to leave the ASP at N and change the FCT which allows for 1*, 2.5* and 4* of open and closed face angle change. Changing the face angle in this manner only changes the effective loft, (the soled loft will remain at 10*). Look at each of these in their respective 4* face angle settings. One has a soled loft of 10* while the other will have a soled loft of 12*, one will effectively play like 8* and the other will play like 10*. They are not the same and will not play the same.

Since you set face angle by other means then soling the entire discussion of face angle has no meaning to you. However since you do not sole the club, then you definitely want to know what the loft of the club is in the unsoled 0* face angle position.

[rybo]

[quote name='Fixxin' Stixx' timestamp='1412790426' post='10255911']
As a clubmaker, I ensure the client is fully aware of the ramifications of spine aligning the shaft and setting it in a neutral (A1 for Titleist) position unless they have a specific setting to accommodate (natural draw/fade). In essence, the adjustable clubhead really doesn't allow for exploiting the various settings unless you have a completely balanced shaft, which means without a spine/flat line/NBD, which is almost impossible.
[/quote]

Fixxin'

While this is off topic, I'll respond.

Personally I do not put as much concern in spine alignment of shafts as I used to. Shaft consistency has improved many times over from the early days where one shaft to the next could have huge differences. Manufacturers are constantly improving their processes, manufacturing techniques, materials and even the machines the shafts are made on. I have had everything from simple homemade spine aligners to PURE'd shafts and quite honestly I have never seen a difference in down range target accuracy. I also play extra stiff shafts so the potential for a wobbly shaft to have any real noticeable effect has pretty much been minimized.

I believe the FA/effective loft changes via the hosel have a much greater effect then any amount of shaft distortion negating/enhancing the settings.

[cspin]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412793412' post='10256191']
[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412743993' post='10253631']
Many of these posts seem to be overlooking a very fundamental concept. When you hold your driver at address and are set up to your target line, the shaft is going to extend from the club head in a certain direction (up, down, forward, backward) to where you are gripping the club in your hands. On a [u]non-adjustable[/u] driver the golfer needs to physically move the shaft up, down, forward or backward by moving the grip to affect loft, lie and face angle. This can be done with the club on the ground or in the air. If the club is built properly, the club head should have the correct loft, lie and face angle at the point where your hands are accustomed to being at address/impact. Everyone holds the club in a certain position, and that should not be altered to achieve desired loft, lie and face angle. In other words, why should the golfer manipulate his/her hands (and thus the shaft) into a position to where the club [u]then[/u] has the desired loft, lie and face angle?! I recognize that where you start is not necessarily where you will be at impact, but altering your starting position (whether the club is soled on the ground or hovering in the air) would have to require swing adjustments to get the club back to where it needs to be at impact.

I do not see how this concept changes when dealing with [u]adjustable[/u] woods. The adjustability does not change the physical dimensions of the head of the club, rather the angle in which the shaft extends out of it. You may be able to hover the club in the air to avoid the grounds influence on the sole of the club, but that does not change the fact that the shaft is in any number of different locations in your setup based on how the shaft is adjusted. You could adjust the shaft so that it is in the position that you are accustom to holding the club at, but the loft, lie and face angle are going to be affected. If you find the combination of a head that is in the desired orientation you need for best results, and the shaft exits that head at the proper angle to where it ends up in the position where you typically hold the club in your set-up, you have accomplished pretty much all that is possible from a fitting standpoint. That is no different if you have an adjustable or non-adjustable driver.

The loft, lie and face angle on a wood cannot be changed, regardless of whether it is soled or hovered in the air. The club head "is what it is." What can be changed (whether through adjustable shaft adapters, manually bending hosels, etc.) is the orientation of where the club head is at in relation to your hands (which are holding the grip). This is no different on woods that have sole plates that have minimal contact with the ground at address (previously mentioned Cobra Smartpad sole). The handle of the club most still be moved (either manually or by adjustment) to make the unchangeable and "built-in" loft, lie and face angle on a wood head change.

I am admittedly not an engineer or math wiz, but am fairly confident that the above is correct. There may be a better way of explaining it. Perhaps an example would be to consider a 3" x 3" x 3" square box on the end of a shaft. The square box "is what it is." It has 0* of loft and 0* face angle when square to the target line. If the bottom of the box is sitting on the ground (or hovering in the air parallel to the ground) the shaft would come out the corner of the box at a certain angle until it reaches your hands. Moving your hands (with the grip in them) in different directions will change all the angles of the box on the end of the shaft. The same thing happens if the shaft were to be adjusted at the point where it enters the box. If you adjust the shaft orientation coming out of the box but keep your hands in the same location as you always do in your set up, it will result in the box having different loft, lie and face angles.
[/quote]

I agree with your entire post. The only thing I would like to mention is something that gets lost in this whole measurement argument. I play golf. I don't measure the clubheads (any more). That being said, knowing what the loft of a given clubhead is and how it is measured allows me to know what loft I am preparing to present to the ball when I hold the club is a specific manner, REGARDLESS of how accurate I am able to do that. For years people have been accepting the loft printed on the clubheads with no issues. Suddenly when they can adjust it, all h*ll breaks loose and no one knows what the loft is any more. Really, nothing changed in the general design of the clubhead except the ability to slightly tilt the shaft in the bore. The same thing Tom did with his design years ago, just a little easier to do. All the arguments about the FA to Loft ratio is nothing but math. At a 45* lie, it's 1:1. Changing the lie, changes the ratio. With the current group of driver lie angles being from 58 to 62, it's ballpark 1: .65. No one can discern with .5* loft change anyway, so the heads are marked fine to begin with and all the adjustment tables are close enough for the avg. golfer.

People have gotten so caught up in the numbers these days that they have forgotten to just swing the club.

BT
[/quote]


I agree. Swinging the club is the name of the game. If you know how your clubs are set up, you can learn something from your good and bad shots, assuming you know a thing or two about the swing and ball flight. Once you get dialed in within reason, you are freed up to play and make necessary swing adjustments as you are playing. I can't think of any circumstance where getting your clubs dialed in to your swing could possibly hurt your game. I do agree that too much focus on angles and degrees can mess with your head. But every person needs to know how they are wired for such info, and whether it is info overload or interesting/helpful. I personally do not think one iota about my sticks while I am playing. I can get too caught up in aim and line on the putting green at times, but that is about it.

[BillyZ2]

Even as TW explained the topic so thoroughly, and eloquently, I still have a hard time grasping all the technology. I overcome this limited brain capacity of mine by going to the appropriate golf store to demo 10 to 15 drivers before I purchase. I find the right one that suits my swing and go with it.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412794868' post='10256309']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412791078' post='10255977']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412773273' post='10254401']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412714710' post='10251077']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1412651114' post='10247155']
[b]Lastly if Cobras Smartpad is able to produce 0* face angles across multiple loft settings that would infer different touch points are occurring along the the sole when the hosel is adjusted to different loft settings. Did each of the different adjusted loft settings for all of the OEM's in the report have different touch points? [/b]
[/quote]

With the Smart Pad, the touch point does not change with the loft adjustments. The common touchpoint is the thin raised "pad" just behind the face on the sole of the head about 1/2" wide. Every other part of the sole rises from there. It gives about the same contact area as an iron. Thus, the golfer does not get the impression that the wood actually soles itself, it more or less is squared up just like an iron. Yeah, it's tiny and in firm grass like bermuda, it's not gonna matter a bit. But then, do any of them? I have played the ACP since it came out and can attest that the face can be easily oriented regardless of the loft setting.I also have a sack full of other drivers (as most others here do) and can attest that they do not have this same characteristic.

However, as Tom and many others here are aware, I am an anomaly. I square the clubface with my grip. I DO NOT depend on the natural soling point of the club to set the face because I DO NOT believe the turf on a given golf course is consistent enough to be dependable to do that. Apparently this goes against the common practice of most golfers, but I refuse to believe it is wrong. I do it with my irons, why not with my woods? So, face angle as a fitting parameter, is a moot point IMHO.

BT
[/quote]

I agree the common touch point is the thin raised pad, however when you change loft via the hosel, the touch point along the pad has to move to maintain a square face angle. The smartpad is quite similar to TM's ASP on the R1, except it is the closer to the face so a much smaller amount of corrective FA is needed to keep the club head sitting square.
[/quote]

The TM ASP works in conjunction with the leading edge of the sole, which also rests on the ground. Since these two parts are relatively far apart compared to the small footprint of the Smart Pad, I do not agree with your analogy here. The Cobra woods head, IMHO, are made for golfers like me who want the sole of our driver and FWs to influence the shot as little as possible. The TM ASP, I believe, was added to negate the FA change that happens when their hosel adapter is adjusted.

And YES, I DO use the R11 FWs. However, I have the ASP cranked to it's most open setting and the ACP typically set anywhere from Std to Lower so that I really only deal with the front part of the sole interacting with the turf. Just wanted to point that out before someone else did.

BT
[/quote]

BT,

If there is a FA/loft change via the hosel then there has to be equally opposite amount of FA/loft by some other means for the face angle to sit square. There is no way around this. The Smartpad simply changes the sole point for the leading edge. I know you have some type of a machinist background, so soling points are datum targets.

There is a huge difference between changing face angle via the ASP vs the FCT. The ASP changes the soled loft, while the FCT changes the effective loft. While it works the same on a R11s fairway wood, the change is not as noticeable as it is on the R1. Take the R1 in the 10* loft setting, N ASP setting, there are two ways to change face angle. You could leave the FCT at 10* and move the ASP either 1.33*, 2.66* or 4* open and closed. Changing face angle this way is the equivalent to rotating the shaft and there will be a measurable soled loft change. The other option is to leave the ASP at N and change the FCT which allows for 1*, 2.5* and 4* of open and closed face angle change. Changing the face angle in this manner only changes the effective loft, (the soled loft will remain at 10*). Look at each of these in their respective 4* face angle settings. One has a soled loft of 10* while the other will have a soled loft of 12*, one will effectively play like 8* and the other will play like 10*. They are not the same and will not play the same.

Since you set face angle by other means then soling the entire discussion of face angle has no meaning to you. However since you do not sole the club, then you definitely want to know what the loft of the club is in the unsoled 0* face angle position.
[/quote]

You are exactly correct. For me, all the ASP is used for is to move the rear sole contact point out of the picture. I want as little sole touching the ground as possible when I use a wood. This is more important with FWs than the driver. I (and several others) refer to it as sole interaction. I don't care if the FA SITS square, because I don't depend on that. I HOLD it square, just like I do an iron. When I used persimmon woods, I worked the soles of my FWs down so that they were out of the way. Once I moved to metalwoods, it became VERY difficult to find FW heads that I liked. I grew up playing in Texas where we had HARD thin fairways and hitting a 3w off that was borderline impossible. If you couldn't find an open-faced 3w, your shots felt like drop-kicks because the sole of the club would slap the ground at impact. Especially when playing a fade. Now, with these woods, I just play my FWs like a long iron and it's automatic. I see it as a huge advantage over those who don't setup this way because it makes hitting FW woods so easy.

With the driver, squaring the face with your grip means that hosel adjustments are only for loft. When I play the R11 driver, I had no issues using the entire range of hosel adjustment. I have the same success with the ACP. All of the other drivers I tried, are okay till I start wanting to use the higher lofts, then rear part of the sole starts bothering me. Mostly because I tee the ball somewhat low and tend to sweep the ground with my tee shots. I have tried in vain to execute hitting up on the ball and, at my age, it is physically uncomfortable and a strain.

As for what adjustments do, I have found it is far easier to look at it this way. Loft is an angular relationship between the shaft and the face. A golfer striving to hit a straight shot typically has the goal of delivering the clubhead to the ball with the face square with their path and the loft applied at that moment is the only loft that matters. When hitting a fade, you plan to deliver the clubhead slightly open to the path and the loft applied at that moment will be slightly higher than the loft applied at square...UNLESS the golfer changes their swing to deloft the clubhead at impact. A draw is just the opposite. I accept the theory that FA can be used to help those with poor swings, but I honestly believe that any accomplished golfer manipulates the face of the club depending on the shot they plan to hit.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412795730' post='10256379']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412793412' post='10256191']
[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412743993' post='10253631']
Many of these posts seem to be overlooking a very fundamental concept. When you hold your driver at address and are set up to your target line, the shaft is going to extend from the club head in a certain direction (up, down, forward, backward) to where you are gripping the club in your hands. On a [u]non-adjustable[/u] driver the golfer needs to physically move the shaft up, down, forward or backward by moving the grip to affect loft, lie and face angle. This can be done with the club on the ground or in the air. If the club is built properly, the club head should have the correct loft, lie and face angle at the point where your hands are accustomed to being at address/impact. Everyone holds the club in a certain position, and that should not be altered to achieve desired loft, lie and face angle. In other words, why should the golfer manipulate his/her hands (and thus the shaft) into a position to where the club [u]then[/u] has the desired loft, lie and face angle?! I recognize that where you start is not necessarily where you will be at impact, but altering your starting position (whether the club is soled on the ground or hovering in the air) would have to require swing adjustments to get the club back to where it needs to be at impact.

I do not see how this concept changes when dealing with [u]adjustable[/u] woods. The adjustability does not change the physical dimensions of the head of the club, rather the angle in which the shaft extends out of it. You may be able to hover the club in the air to avoid the grounds influence on the sole of the club, but that does not change the fact that the shaft is in any number of different locations in your setup based on how the shaft is adjusted. You could adjust the shaft so that it is in the position that you are accustom to holding the club at, but the loft, lie and face angle are going to be affected. If you find the combination of a head that is in the desired orientation you need for best results, and the shaft exits that head at the proper angle to where it ends up in the position where you typically hold the club in your set-up, you have accomplished pretty much all that is possible from a fitting standpoint. That is no different if you have an adjustable or non-adjustable driver.

The loft, lie and face angle on a wood cannot be changed, regardless of whether it is soled or hovered in the air. The club head "is what it is." What can be changed (whether through adjustable shaft adapters, manually bending hosels, etc.) is the orientation of where the club head is at in relation to your hands (which are holding the grip). This is no different on woods that have sole plates that have minimal contact with the ground at address (previously mentioned Cobra Smartpad sole). The handle of the club most still be moved (either manually or by adjustment) to make the unchangeable and "built-in" loft, lie and face angle on a wood head change.

I am admittedly not an engineer or math wiz, but am fairly confident that the above is correct. There may be a better way of explaining it. Perhaps an example would be to consider a 3" x 3" x 3" square box on the end of a shaft. The square box "is what it is." It has 0* of loft and 0* face angle when square to the target line. If the bottom of the box is sitting on the ground (or hovering in the air parallel to the ground) the shaft would come out the corner of the box at a certain angle until it reaches your hands. Moving your hands (with the grip in them) in different directions will change all the angles of the box on the end of the shaft. The same thing happens if the shaft were to be adjusted at the point where it enters the box. If you adjust the shaft orientation coming out of the box but keep your hands in the same location as you always do in your set up, it will result in the box having different loft, lie and face angles.
[/quote]

I agree with your entire post. The only thing I would like to mention is something that gets lost in this whole measurement argument. I play golf. I don't measure the clubheads (any more). That being said, knowing what the loft of a given clubhead is and how it is measured allows me to know what loft I am preparing to present to the ball when I hold the club is a specific manner, REGARDLESS of how accurate I am able to do that. For years people have been accepting the loft printed on the clubheads with no issues. Suddenly when they can adjust it, all h*ll breaks loose and no one knows what the loft is any more. Really, nothing changed in the general design of the clubhead except the ability to slightly tilt the shaft in the bore. The same thing Tom did with his design years ago, just a little easier to do. All the arguments about the FA to Loft ratio is nothing but math. At a 45* lie, it's 1:1. Changing the lie, changes the ratio. With the current group of driver lie angles being from 58 to 62, it's ballpark 1: .65. No one can discern with .5* loft change anyway, so the heads are marked fine to begin with and all the adjustment tables are close enough for the avg. golfer.

People have gotten so caught up in the numbers these days that they have forgotten to just swing the club.

BT
[/quote]


I agree. Swinging the club is the name of the game. If you know how your clubs are set up, you can learn something from your good and bad shots, assuming you know a thing or two about the swing and ball flight. Once you get dialed in within reason, you are freed up to play and make necessary swing adjustments as you are playing. I can't think of any circumstance where getting your clubs dialed in to your swing could possibly hurt your game. I do agree that too much focus on angles and degrees can mess with your head. But every person needs to know how they are wired for such info, and whether it is info overload or interesting/helpful. I personally do not think one iota about my sticks while I am playing. I can get too caught up in aim and line on the putting green at times, but that is about it.
[/quote]

I laugh every time I hear someone say they have their driver "dialed in". Dialed in to what? Today's conditions and what course? Do you need max carry, max rollout, max wind penetration, minimum spin or a combination of some of those? If I'm playing a super-soft tight course in the morning and a links style firm course in the afternoon, will the same dialed in driver work to my benefit on both. It's doubtful. But with a twist of the wrench, I'm ready for both.

BT

[cspin]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412822094' post='10258371']
[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412795730' post='10256379']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1412793412' post='10256191']
[quote name='cspin' timestamp='1412743993' post='10253631']
Many of these posts seem to be overlooking a very fundamental concept. When you hold your driver at address and are set up to your target line, the shaft is going to extend from the club head in a certain direction (up, down, forward, backward) to where you are gripping the club in your hands. On a [u]non-adjustable[/u] driver the golfer needs to physically move the shaft up, down, forward or backward by moving the grip to affect loft, lie and face angle. This can be done with the club on the ground or in the air. If the club is built properly, the club head should have the correct loft, lie and face angle at the point where your hands are accustomed to being at address/impact. Everyone holds the club in a certain position, and that should not be altered to achieve desired loft, lie and face angle. In other words, why should the golfer manipulate his/her hands (and thus the shaft) into a position to where the club [u]then[/u] has the desired loft, lie and face angle?! I recognize that where you start is not necessarily where you will be at impact, but altering your starting position (whether the club is soled on the ground or hovering in the air) would have to require swing adjustments to get the club back to where it needs to be at impact.

I do not see how this concept changes when dealing with [u]adjustable[/u] woods. The adjustability does not change the physical dimensions of the head of the club, rather the angle in which the shaft extends out of it. You may be able to hover the club in the air to avoid the grounds influence on the sole of the club, but that does not change the fact that the shaft is in any number of different locations in your setup based on how the shaft is adjusted. You could adjust the shaft so that it is in the position that you are accustom to holding the club at, but the loft, lie and face angle are going to be affected. If you find the combination of a head that is in the desired orientation you need for best results, and the shaft exits that head at the proper angle to where it ends up in the position where you typically hold the club in your set-up, you have accomplished pretty much all that is possible from a fitting standpoint. That is no different if you have an adjustable or non-adjustable driver.

The loft, lie and face angle on a wood cannot be changed, regardless of whether it is soled or hovered in the air. The club head "is what it is." What can be changed (whether through adjustable shaft adapters, manually bending hosels, etc.) is the orientation of where the club head is at in relation to your hands (which are holding the grip). This is no different on woods that have sole plates that have minimal contact with the ground at address (previously mentioned Cobra Smartpad sole). The handle of the club most still be moved (either manually or by adjustment) to make the unchangeable and "built-in" loft, lie and face angle on a wood head change.

I am admittedly not an engineer or math wiz, but am fairly confident that the above is correct. There may be a better way of explaining it. Perhaps an example would be to consider a 3" x 3" x 3" square box on the end of a shaft. The square box "is what it is." It has 0* of loft and 0* face angle when square to the target line. If the bottom of the box is sitting on the ground (or hovering in the air parallel to the ground) the shaft would come out the corner of the box at a certain angle until it reaches your hands. Moving your hands (with the grip in them) in different directions will change all the angles of the box on the end of the shaft. The same thing happens if the shaft were to be adjusted at the point where it enters the box. If you adjust the shaft orientation coming out of the box but keep your hands in the same location as you always do in your set up, it will result in the box having different loft, lie and face angles.
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I agree with your entire post. The only thing I would like to mention is something that gets lost in this whole measurement argument. I play golf. I don't measure the clubheads (any more). That being said, knowing what the loft of a given clubhead is and how it is measured allows me to know what loft I am preparing to present to the ball when I hold the club is a specific manner, REGARDLESS of how accurate I am able to do that. For years people have been accepting the loft printed on the clubheads with no issues. Suddenly when they can adjust it, all h*ll breaks loose and no one knows what the loft is any more. Really, nothing changed in the general design of the clubhead except the ability to slightly tilt the shaft in the bore. The same thing Tom did with his design years ago, just a little easier to do. All the arguments about the FA to Loft ratio is nothing but math. At a 45* lie, it's 1:1. Changing the lie, changes the ratio. With the current group of driver lie angles being from 58 to 62, it's ballpark 1: .65. No one can discern with .5* loft change anyway, so the heads are marked fine to begin with and all the adjustment tables are close enough for the avg. golfer.

People have gotten so caught up in the numbers these days that they have forgotten to just swing the club.

BT
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I agree. Swinging the club is the name of the game. If you know how your clubs are set up, you can learn something from your good and bad shots, assuming you know a thing or two about the swing and ball flight. Once you get dialed in within reason, you are freed up to play and make necessary swing adjustments as you are playing. I can't think of any circumstance where getting your clubs dialed in to your swing could possibly hurt your game. I do agree that too much focus on angles and degrees can mess with your head. But every person needs to know how they are wired for such info, and whether it is info overload or interesting/helpful. I personally do not think one iota about my sticks while I am playing. I can get too caught up in aim and line on the putting green at times, but that is about it.
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I laugh every time I hear someone say they have their driver "dialed in". Dialed in to what? Today's conditions and what course? Do you need max carry, max rollout, max wind penetration, minimum spin or a combination of some of those? If I'm playing a super-soft tight course in the morning and a links style firm course in the afternoon, will the same dialed in driver work to my benefit on both. It's doubtful. But with a twist of the wrench, I'm ready for both.

BT
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Dialed in (fitted) to a shaft, length and head that produces the general ball flight you are looking for. Unless you are very accomplished, most golfers would do well to have a driver and swing that produces a launch and shape that can be reliably repeated. Say, take the left side out of play and maximize carry and role out. If you are going from high winds and dry conditions, to no wind and a wet course...that is a different ball game. Personally, I can adjust to that by tee height and throttling the swing down when into the wind. There may be people, including yourself, that are able to keep everything in their swing and set up the same, and just ratchet the driver into a different configuration. If you know what works and can make the adjustments that way, good deal. Being able to adjust your club head to fit conditions is a nice option if the golfer knows what they are doing. I have not taken it to that level, but perhaps one day I will when I have more time to practice and play with adjustments. For now, it is one driver fitted to my stock swing. No desire to change the adjustments from what I know works, until such time that I can experiment.