Steeper shoulder plane - just cant do it when hitting ball

[bph7]

[quote name='sludd' timestamp='1425040849' post='11038821']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1412616534' post='10243739']
Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.
[/quote]

Interesting thoughts on the position of the right shoulder at the top - the thing is, the amateur swing showing the very deep position also clearly shows a golfer who is badly out of posture (and standing up somewhat) at the top of the backswing, which has a significant effect on the shoulder plane.

If we look at each of the professionals shown in the thread, they are all able to maintain their initial forward spine angle at the top and this has a major effect on the position of the right shoulder in relation to the toeline. More interesting to me is their "actual" shoulder plane at the top (where the shoulders are pointing at on the ground). Some are way outside the ball to target line (flatter), some are a bit closer to the ball/target line (steeper) but none have a shoulder plane that points inside the ball.

In measuring shoulder plane, we must first be sure the golfer is in a good posture at the top - only then can we identify the true shoulder plane (rather than just the position relative to the toeline). We can see that there is a wide variation in this among the best players, suggesting that steep or flat can work effectively, but one's posture is of critical importance throughout the swing, not just at address.
[/quote]

Professionals are not maintaining forward spine angle, they are left side bending, this is why so many cannot understand this properly...

[Dave D]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1425082614' post='11043829']
[quote name='sludd' timestamp='1425040849' post='11038821']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1412616534' post='10243739']
Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.
[/quote]

Interesting thoughts on the position of the right shoulder at the top - the thing is, the amateur swing showing the very deep position also clearly shows a golfer who is badly out of posture (and standing up somewhat) at the top of the backswing, which has a significant effect on the shoulder plane.

If we look at each of the professionals shown in the thread, they are all able to maintain their initial forward spine angle at the top and this has a major effect on the position of the right shoulder in relation to the toeline. More interesting to me is their "actual" shoulder plane at the top (where the shoulders are pointing at on the ground). Some are way outside the ball to target line (flatter), some are a bit closer to the ball/target line (steeper) but none have a shoulder plane that points inside the ball.

In measuring shoulder plane, we must first be sure the golfer is in a good posture at the top - only then can we identify the true shoulder plane (rather than just the position relative to the toeline). We can see that there is a wide variation in this among the best players, suggesting that steep or flat can work effectively, but one's posture is of critical importance throughout the swing, not just at address.
[/quote]

Professionals are not maintaining forward spine angle, they are left side bending, this is why so many cannot understand this properly...
[/quote]
this video should help those who don't understand replacing forward bend with side bend [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOBfJ7QJW74"]https://www.youtube....h?v=AOBfJ7QJW74[/url]

[Miggaletoe]

[quote name=' Dave D' timestamp='1425115623' post='11046037']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1425082614' post='11043829']
[quote name='sludd' timestamp='1425040849' post='11038821']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1412616534' post='10243739']
Talking about the "space" between different players when measuring their right shoulder position isn't completely legit since you're not measuring players with the same spine angle at address nor necessarily the same club.

Even within the same player, different clubs will give you different spine angles due to their different lengths. The more upright spine angle will cause more "space" in this right shoulder measurement.

You should measure your shoulder plane angle relative to your spine angle and ignore this right shoulder "space" measurement, imo.
[/quote]

Interesting thoughts on the position of the right shoulder at the top - the thing is, the amateur swing showing the very deep position also clearly shows a golfer who is badly out of posture (and standing up somewhat) at the top of the backswing, which has a significant effect on the shoulder plane.

If we look at each of the professionals shown in the thread, they are all able to maintain their initial forward spine angle at the top and this has a major effect on the position of the right shoulder in relation to the toeline. More interesting to me is their "actual" shoulder plane at the top (where the shoulders are pointing at on the ground). Some are way outside the ball to target line (flatter), some are a bit closer to the ball/target line (steeper) but none have a shoulder plane that points inside the ball.

In measuring shoulder plane, we must first be sure the golfer is in a good posture at the top - only then can we identify the true shoulder plane (rather than just the position relative to the toeline). We can see that there is a wide variation in this among the best players, suggesting that steep or flat can work effectively, but one's posture is of critical importance throughout the swing, not just at address.
[/quote]

Professionals are not maintaining forward spine angle, they are left side bending, this is why so many cannot understand this properly...
[/quote]
this video should help those who don't understand replacing forward bend with side bend [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOBfJ7QJW74"]https://www.youtube....h?v=AOBfJ7QJW74[/url]
[/quote]I understand it but have a pretty hard time maintaining right side bend.

[kchuckb]

Did you mean left shoulder?

No, the RIGHT shoulder. Think of it this way....

 

If there was a barrier from the balls of the feet straight up, the right shoulder of almost all professionals and great players would work ON or IN FRONT of that barrier to the top of the swing. There are exceptions of course like Hogan, Kuchar and Zach Johnson, but the overwhelming vast majority do it. If you don't let your RIGHT shoulder get deep, it is extremely difficult to turn your shoulders flat.

 

For example, here's McDowell with a line from the balls of the feet up representing the "barrier" for the right shoulder ...

 

 

And you can see that the right shoulder works up vertically in front of it. This forces the left shoulder to turn down and the overall shoulder tilt is steeper and you can see how little the right shoulder works behind the body. It's much more of an up and down movement.

 

 

 

Those with flat shoulder swings will have the RIGHT shoulder break that barrier at the top often times by a substantial amount.

 

 

A few examples... Stenson...

 

Rory

 

 

Rory with an iron...

 

Oosthuizen

 

Rose

 

 

 

 

 

So, the drill Steve Bann and Chad Phillips had me do was to put an alignment rod right on my toe line and try to FEEL like my right shoulder did NOT get deeper or behind the alignment rod at the top which forces the shoulders to work on a steeper plane. They don't really work that steeply, but that's the FEEL to get them working correctly and it works very well. It is very easy to sense where the alignment rod is as a barrier.

 

 

In my own swing before working with Chad, I was FLATTER than the amateur picture above. My right shoulder would literally be behind my heel line. After two weeks of working on the drill, I had made massive improvements. Excuse the shoddy camera work. The range is flat and the camera was angled.

 

BUT.... It's not it's not something that is fixed forever. I still battle getting too flat. It's just how my body wants to work as I feel that the steeper shoulder turn is just more physically demanding than turning flat. If I go a month or so without checking it, I'll definitely revert back to a flat shoulder turn. Here's an image from my swing that I posted on the forum yesterday.

 

Nice post. Lots of good stuff right there.

[larrybud]

Let's overlay the "flat" guy with the pro. As you can see, the main problem is that his spine angle is way different. The pro is bent over about 40 degrees, while the amateur is bent over about 28 degrees in this example.

So the more upright your spine angle, the 'deeper' your right shoulder will be relative to feet. Do this yourself: Stand straight up and rotate to the right, keeping your shoulder plane at a 90 degree angle to your spine. Your right shoulder will be way behind you.

While it's an interesting observation, it's not a root cause.


[attachment=2648501:overlay.jpg]

[dornstar]

Let's overlay the "flat" guy with the pro. As you can see, the main problem is that his spine angle is way different. The pro is bent over about 40 degrees, while the amateur is bent over about 28 degrees in this example.

 

So the more upright your spine angle, the 'deeper' your right shoulder will be relative to feet. Do this yourself: Stand straight up and rotate to the right, keeping your shoulder plane at a 90 degree angle to your spine. Your right shoulder will be way behind you.

 

While it's an interesting observation, it's not a root cause.

 

 

 

The reality is that most great golfers regardless of setup position change their spine angle during the swing, so the position they start from is largely irrelevant. Hogan is a prime example. He had an upright posture at setup and increased his spine angle in the backswing. Tiger does as well as does most great players. Look at Palmer.... he MASSIVELY increased his spine tilt as well. Why? Because his shoulder turn was essentially vertical. That's like an 80-85* angle the right shoulder worked up on.

 

 

 

Look at that picture.... Most amateur golfers would find turning on that angle ludicrous because they simply don't think of the shoulder "turn" as being a vertical movement. They think of it as a turn around the body which is why so many amateurs suffer from flat shoulder turns and the fact is that it is physically impossible to get into a deep spine angle like that with a flat shoulder turn. If you turn flat, you'll lose posture. If you turn steep, you'll gain it. If you don't understand the vertical element of the shoulder turn and turn flat and deep, you will never regardless of spine angle at address get into that 40* position you mentioned. It's not happening.

 

 

I mean, we're not re-inventing the wheel here. This is nothing more than a different way of thinking about the shoulder turn. The net result is the same thing whether you think about it as the angle your turn your shoulders on or the depth of the right shoulder. Some people can sense the angle their shoulder is turning on. Others can't. I'm one of the people who couldn't and despite years of trying to fix my flat shoulder turn, nothing worked. It wasn't because I couldn't get into the position. I just didn't understand the vertical element of the shoulder turn and because I didn't have the correct conceptual picture in my head, I couldn't figure it out. It wasn't until I was taught to "feel" like my right shoulder stayed in front of my toes at the top of the swing that I understood that vertical element of the turn... and once I understood it, I was able to fix the flat turn basically overnight.

[Krt22]

Ive been battling (and trying to fix) this exact issue. From one of the other posts about this being side bend related, at the top, would a good feel be trying to stretch out my right side/lat?

[Precis1on]

I've been working on this for a while. When I focus too hard on getting my left shoulder down or right shoulder back/up, my arms would disconnect from the swing and cause disaster.

So instead, the swing thought that has worked for me is "[b]Move the arms in a way that causes the left shoulder to drop in front while maintaining forward/side tilt.[/b]" If anything, my backswing actually feels DEEPER and WIDER and my shoulders are on plane. I have a lot more room to work the club to the ball on the downswing without backing away from it in my address. It's a whole new feeling.

Hope that thought gets some of you guys who are struggling or stuck the mind frame of thinking only about the shoulders. Let your arms get your shoulder there. Definitely more than one way to solve this issue, keep hacking at it until you find yours!

[hole in 1]

For those of you that are struggling with too flat a shoulder turn this may help. I've been doing some work on steepening my shoulder turn and have noticed that my lead arm and shoulder were tense and this was contributing to my flatter shoulder turn. Now i actually let my lead arm fold a tiny bit whilst thinking about doing a steeper shoulder turn and this enables me to hold my posture angles a lot better throughout the backswing.

[TB07]

Hip bend does influence the angle that you rotate. A lot of golfers don't setup with enough hip bend. That said, a lot of
golfers also do not tilt/side bend enough regardless of setup. It's impossible to say something is not a root cause because root cause is unique to the individual. Both can be a root cause.

[larrybud]

[quote name='dornstar' timestamp='1425602785' post='11086519']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1425574605' post='11083267']
Let's overlay the "flat" guy with the pro. As you can see, the main problem is that his spine angle is way different. The pro is bent over about 40 degrees, while the amateur is bent over about 28 degrees in this example.

So the more upright your spine angle, the 'deeper' your right shoulder will be relative to feet. Do this yourself: Stand straight up and rotate to the right, keeping your shoulder plane at a 90 degree angle to your spine. Your right shoulder will be way behind you.

While it's an interesting observation, it's not a root cause.


[attachment=2648501:overlay.jpg]
[/quote]
The reality is that most great golfers regardless of setup position change their spine angle during the swing, so the position they start from is largely irrelevant. Hogan is a prime example. He had an upright posture at setup and increased his spine angle in the backswing. Tiger does as well as does most great players. Look at Palmer.... he MASSIVELY increased his spine tilt as well. Why? Because his shoulder turn was essentially vertical. That's like an 80-85* angle the right shoulder worked up on.
[/quote]

I agree that many golfers change their spine angle, so they should fix their spine angle, not just try to turn more vertical.

Also, if you're going to throw numbers out there, you should measure them first. That pic of palmer is a 60 degrees from horizontal, not 80-85. See image below:

[attachment=2657929:palmer_shoulder_turn.png]

[michaeld_2020]

> @dornstar said:

> larrybud wrote:

>

>

>

> Let's overlay the "flat" guy with the pro. As you can see, the main problem is that his spine angle is way different. The pro is bent over about 40 degrees, while the amateur is bent over about 28 degrees in this example.

>

>

>

> So the more upright your spine angle, the 'deeper' your right shoulder will be relative to feet. Do this yourself: Stand straight up and rotate to the right, keeping your shoulder plane at a 90 degree angle to your spine. Your right shoulder will be way behind you.

>

>

>

> While it's an interesting observation, it's not a root cause.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> The reality is that most great golfers regardless of setup position change their spine angle during the swing, so the position they start from is largely irrelevant. Hogan is a prime example. He had an upright posture at setup and increased his spine angle in the backswing. Tiger does as well as does most great players. Look at Palmer.... he MASSIVELY increased his spine tilt as well. Why? Because his shoulder turn was essentially vertical. That's like an 80-85* angle the right shoulder worked up on.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Look at that picture.... Most amateur golfers would find turning on that angle ludicrous because they simply don't think of the shoulder "turn" as being a vertical movement. They think of it as a turn around the body which is why so many amateurs suffer from flat shoulder turns and the fact is that it is physically impossible to get into a deep spine angle like that with a flat shoulder turn. If you turn flat, you'll lose posture. If you turn steep, you'll gain it. If you don't understand the vertical element of the shoulder turn and turn flat and deep, you will never regardless of spine angle at address get into that 40* position you mentioned. It's not happening.

>

>

>

>

>

> I mean, we're not re-inventing the wheel here. This is nothing more than a different way of thinking about the shoulder turn. The net result is the same thing whether you think about it as the angle your turn your shoulders on or the depth of the right shoulder. Some people can sense the angle their shoulder is turning on. Others can't. I'm one of the people who couldn't and despite years of trying to fix my flat shoulder turn, nothing worked. It wasn't because I couldn't get into the position. I just didn't understand the vertical element of the shoulder turn and because I didn't have the correct conceptual picture in my head, I couldn't figure it out. It wasn't until I was taught to "feel" like my right shoulder stayed in front of my toes at the top of the swing that I understood that vertical element of the turn... and once I understood it, I was able to fix the flat turn basically overnight.

 

I have loved reading your comments - can you upload a picture resembling your swing thoughts? Do you imagine a straight line up to the sky from the ball of your foot - and for your right shoulder to stay in front of this line?

[DShepley]

I find that the steep should tilt is more of a function of left spine bend and extension. Your shoulders will turn flat and hand path will be inside if you turn around your forward bend. Try this as an example. Stand straight up and bend your knees slightly keeping your butt under your hips. Now bend your spine to the left as far as you can, next, rotate your shoulders, (maintaining that left bend and extension), so that your back is to the target and you will find yourself in a pretty good backswing position. The spine extension, (standing up bit), and left bend will keep your hands in front of you and the clubhead tracking upward as it moves inside.

[Scottbox]

I'm working on the same issue. I found that my hip turn was too flat, which in turn affects my shoulder plane. These 2 vids offer a really complete understanding of how your shoulder and hip tilts are affected by how you move:

 

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1A2RVZ0PQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1A2RVZ0PQ "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1A2RVZ0PQ")

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9einFokyNU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9einFokyNU "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9einFokyNU")

 

 

 

[tyorke1]

Sometimes when people want to get a steeper turn and I am one what happens is you lower to much and then the back swing gets too short and not complete. You can steepen the shoulder turn and still stay tall actually it will feel like your right shoulder is really high, your chest will expand in the backswing and your shoulder turn will steepen. hope this is clear as mud, side bend right shoulder high chest feels like facing sky in bkswing or at least straight back away from target.

[BB28403]

You guys got your shovels out on this thread didn’t you? Haha