moe norman vs. conventional swing

[FireDragon76]

 

Moe Norman stood further away from the ball and held his arms higher at address, making the shaft of the club run much more inline with his left arm (coincidentally, he was also left handed). He did not have a perfectly "one plane" swing, but his setup address and impact positions were very similar. A conventional swing holds the hands hanging from the arms below the chin and the club is swept back to various different angles, and the impact position is often different from setup.

 

My question is... which is better? Why do most golfers hold the club conventionally? Is the Moe Norman setup superior and people are too blinded by tradition- is the conventional setup arbitrary? Moe most likely had high-functioning autism and wasn't afraid to be different, so he came up with this stance on his own. That doesn't mean it's necessarily superior but perhaps there are good reasons why he developed this habit that are worth exploring.

 

I have tried both setups and I am not so great at both (my problem is going from woods to short irons my brain gets stuck in divot mode). I notice I make different kinds of errors with each, but in terms of how they feel, they both feel like golf swings and use some of the same basic skills. With the Moe Norman setup it feels a little more like swinging a club (hence a tendency to hit rather than swing), with a more conventional setup I notice a tendency to feel "stuck" sometimes, although I have gotten around this somewhat by using a shorter swing.

[EmperorPenguin]

My question is this: if Moe Norman's swing is touted to be the best ever or yada yada, why is there not a single playe--zero, not one, and none even resembling that swing--on the PGA Tour who uses that swing?

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1416577975' post='10482505']
My question is this: if Moe Norman's swing is touted to be the best ever or yada yada, why is there not a single playe--zero, not one, and none even resembling that swing--on the PGA Tour who uses that swing?
[/quote]

Maybe because nobody teaches the kids that stuff?

[FireDragon76]

[quote name='EmperorPenguin' timestamp='1416577975' post='10482505']
My question is this: if Moe Norman's swing is touted to be the best ever or yada yada, why is there not a single playe--zero, not one, and none even resembling that swing--on the PGA Tour who uses that swing?
[/quote]


If a group of people all do something, that doesn't mean its the correct way to do it. That's just a logical fallacy. There's all sorts of forces at work as to why people choose a particular way to swing a golf club. Many people might be unaware there are any choices, for starters.

Look at Carl Petterson's swing. It isn't exactly like Moe Norman's but its closer to Moe than a conventional swing. He also gets a lot of comments about an "ugly swing" because it's so unconventional and doesn't resemble the modern "athletic" swing. The PGA tour is full of self-taught or swings that are unconventional in one way or another.

I'm not saying Moe's swing must be better.. but I am wondering just what exactly the setup does for the rest of the swing vs. a more conventional swing. Why does the modern athletic swing so many golfers use keep the hands so low?

[RichieHunt]

Most of Moe's swing was not unconventional. He just had a funny setup with his hands high and arms straight out while he stood a long ways from the ball with his feet as wide as you'll ever see. After that, the only thing unconventional is probably his move at the finish where he tried to finish at the target. The ball is long gone by then though. He did keep his right foot planted on the ground for a long time, but there are other players that have done that, they just do it with a much narrower stance.

 

There's nothing unorthodox about this position though. Get here at impact and great things will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[juststeve]

The picture Richie posted is remarkable for how little he has rotated by the time he gets to impact. Hips and shoulders slightly open and open to nearly the same degree. That is to say, very little separation between the hips and shoulders.

Steve

[SPIF]

 

Moe Norman stood further away from the ball and held his arms higher at address, making the shaft of the club run much more inline with his left arm (coincidentally, he was also left handed). He did not have a perfectly "one plane" swing, but his setup address and impact positions were very similar. A conventional swing holds the hands hanging from the arms below the chin and the club is swept back to various different angles, and the impact position is often different from setup.

 

My question is... which is better? Why do most golfers hold the club conventionally? Is the Moe Norman setup superior and people are too blinded by tradition- is the conventional setup arbitrary? Moe most likely had high-functioning autism and wasn't afraid to be different, so he came up with this stance on his own. That doesn't mean it's necessarily superior but perhaps there are good reasons why he developed this habit that are worth exploring.

 

I have tried both setups and I am not so great at both (my problem is going from woods to short irons my brain gets stuck in divot mode). I notice I make different kinds of errors with each, but in terms of how they feel, they both feel like golf swings and use some of the same basic skills. With the Moe Norman setup it feels a little more like swinging a club (hence a tendency to hit rather than swing), with a more conventional setup I notice a tendency to feel "stuck" sometimes, although I have gotten around this somewhat by using a shorter swing.

 

This site is quite the addiction for you!

[Dinosaur]

as often as this thread comes up, not a lot is said other than to talk about the man himself, the accuracy, and the question as to why nobody on tour does it.

I believe this swing is very easy to emulate and after only a few swings most are amazed at the solid ball striking and accuracy. Most do not stick with it however and even they themselves can not explain why. I know that I have tried and have had excellent results starting out vowing that I am going to definitely employ it but what happens is that after a few holes, other things begin to creep in and the swing breaks down. It's almost as if the body is saying "what?, is this all there is to it", something is missing. This can't be right". Then after reading one of these threads, or looking at some footage, I think I should give it another try. "Rinse, Repeat".

I would agree with Richie that in Norman's early days, his swing was not nearly so pronounced and not so different than anybody's. Then came the demo's and clinics. As for the tour, many elements of the swing appear in a number of players. Petterson and Stricker and even Jason Day are but a few that come to mind.

The posed finish at the end could be attributed to the wide stance and straight arm action making such a finish seem natural when you attempt it. Even that little "pointing" move at the end which I call an "apostrophie".

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1416588307' post='10483377']
The picture Richie posted is remarkable for how little he has rotated by the time he gets to impact. Hips and shoulders slightly open and open to nearly the same degree. That is to say, very little separation between the hips and shoulders.

Steve
[/quote]

I think he's rotated quite a bit. He's certainly open with his hips and his shoulders. He's not Robert Garrigus at impact, but there's still a decent amount of rotation.

I don't think his super wide stance helped with rotating and his left knee would remain flexed for a long time.






RH

[juststeve]

[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1416589671' post='10483531']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1416588307' post='10483377']
The picture Richie posted is remarkable for how little he has rotated by the time he gets to impact. Hips and shoulders slightly open and open to nearly the same degree. That is to say, very little separation between the hips and shoulders.

Steve
[/quote]

I think he's rotated quite a bit. He's certainly open with his hips and his shoulders. He's not Robert Garrigus at impact, but there's still a decent amount of rotation.

I don't think his super wide stance helped with rotating and his left knee would remain flexed for a long time.






RH
[/quote]

You're certainly right about the wide stance hindering rotation. As to the rest a certain amount of rotation is automatically produced when the hands and arms swing the club through the ball. I don't know that I see any rotation that wouldn't be accounted for by that, but its only one picture.

Steve

[The Pearl]

Perhaps a distant comparison is Rick Barry and the underhanded free throw. I am not sure it is a method for everybody, but considering some of the atrocious FT shooting, particularly from many of the front court players, somebody would have given it a shot.

[FireDragon76]

I wonder how physically demanding this swing is? When I look at videos of the Norman, his swing looks powerful and there's a lot of shoulder and upper body rotation, and some hip action. It doesn't look easy at all like some of the vertical swings I see. But I suspect they rely more on timing than Norman's swing.

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='FireDragon76' timestamp='1416593928' post='10483893']
I wonder how physically demanding this swing is? When I look at videos of the Norman, his swing looks powerful and there's a lot of shoulder and upper body rotation, and some hip action. It doesn't look easy at all like some of the vertical swings I see. But I suspect they rely more on timing than Norman's swing.
[/quote]

Moe probably hit more balls than anybody on the planet during his time playing golf and I don't ever recall him having any injury issues or complaining about injuries. And he wasn't exactly a fine physical specimen either and often had to sleep in his car, sleep in bunkers, etc.

I wouldn't draw the conclusion that his swing won't cause injuries, but I don't think it gave him a problem either.





RH

[farmer]

I've read about Moe N., but never anything in depth. Did he chip and hit sand shots or other short pitches with the same setup and basic motion?

[Dinosaur]

more than likely lots of info avail. Try Google, or Moe Norman Academy, Graves etc. I recall seeing some you tube videos as well.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHmq4xhS_bI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHmq4xhS_bI[/url]

[FireDragon76]

One bit about Moe that may be a clue... he was left-handed but played with right-handed clubs, probably due to starting out poor. I know experimenting with the Moe Norman swing and a much more vertical swing (watching videos of Dave Seeman and emulating that swing), that the two swings are different in the feel. Moe said the left arm pulls the club for power. My left shoulder is not the strongest and I'm guessing the swing relies a lot upon the left arm.

I still like the idea of fooling around with this swing from time to time- its what I started out emulating when I decided to take up golf. In the past reading books and trying to emulate the older swings from the 70's didn't work well, there was too much coordination involved, too much movement of this or that. The Natural Golf/Graves take on the Norman swing keeps in fairly simple. I'd probably go take lessons as I live in Orlando but I can't afford the 600 price for 2 days instruction (the only instruction that has really worked for me "on my own" is watching Ron Sisson's videos, but he's not focused on mechanics).

Moe hit all the shots with the same basic setup. He was very good playing out of bunkers, pitching, and other aspects of the short game. Not so good at putting. As the clubs got shorter his swing starts to look more conventional, though- its most unorthodox looking with a driver.

Dino is right, if this swing has an obvious weakness, its how easy it is for bad habits to creep into it and cause things to break down. Consistency was actually a problem for me after starting out pretty good, in the end I figured I'd just start out with a new swing for a while. Good instruction and practice is definitely a must, just like any other swing.

I'd love to see more research on engineering a better golf swing from the ground up. Too many great pro golfers have had their careers ended due to injury (Annika Sorenstam being one that immediately comes to mind). There's so much focus on distance, not a lot of focus on how you create a golf swing that doesn't wreck your body.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='FireDragon76' timestamp='1416638075' post='10487051']
One bit about Moe that may be a clue... he was left-handed but played with right-handed clubs, probably due to starting out poor. I know experimenting with the Moe Norman swing and a much more vertical swing (watching videos of Dave Seeman and emulating that swing), that the two swings are different in the feel. Moe said the left arm pulls the club for power. My left shoulder is not the strongest and I'm guessing the swing relies a lot upon the left arm.

I still like the idea of fooling around with this swing from time to time- its what I started out emulating when I decided to take up golf. In the past reading books and trying to emulate the older swings from the 70's didn't work well, there was too much coordination involved, too much movement of this or that. The Natural Golf/Graves take on the Norman swing keeps in fairly simple. I'd probably go take lessons as I live in Orlando but I can't afford the 600 price for 2 days instruction (the only instruction that has really worked for me "on my own" is watching Ron Sisson's videos, but he's not focused on mechanics).

Moe hit all the shots with the same basic setup. He was very good playing out of bunkers, pitching, and other aspects of the short game. Not so good at putting. As the clubs got shorter his swing starts to look more conventional, though- its most unorthodox looking with a driver.
[/quote]

Look for Kirk Junge. As far as I know he will relocate to Florida till end of the year. He worked with Graves for years and is less expensive. He also provides an online program.

[Dinosaur]

I doubt if I will really pursue Moe Norman's swing as taught by Graves Academy. Currently I am finding the offerings by Shawn Clements better suited. His concepts are fairly traditional, but his method of instruction is very comfortable and he has an ability to get things across in a manner that resonates. He has tons of stuff available on you tube. I almost feel guilty of taking advantage of his free offerings. There are several members on this forum that use a Moe Norman swing exclusively. Other forums as well. A guy that comes to mind goes by "Rusty Red Cab" (I think). He has taken the Graves Academy in person and swears by it. One thing that I take exception to in the Graves thing is that once they get your name, you can expect to find solicitations in your in box almost daily, but that's marketing.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='FireDragon76' timestamp='1416593928' post='10483893']
I wonder how physically demanding this swing is? When I look at videos of the Norman, his swing looks powerful and there's a lot of shoulder and upper body rotation, and some hip action. It doesn't look easy at all like some of the vertical swings I see. But I suspect they rely more on timing than Norman's swing.
[/quote]

The swing is very hard on the teeth as Moe's teeth were just a bunch of black nubs.

[Millbrook]

I believe EA Tischler, who has a biomechanical approach, said that he sees the swing evolving more towards Mo's method over time.

[FireDragon76]

[url="http://youtu.be/5T_inYYgNcg"]http://youtu.be/5T_inYYgNcg[/url]

This video has a comparison of Kirk Junge and Moe Norman vs. Tiger Woods. It's really what got me intrigued. In the video you can see Tiger's spine angle changing. It's not a huge amount but its a little bit. Whereas Kirk and Moe have the same spine angle throughout the swing.

This video got me interested in this swing because I have a weak back, I'm not in great shape (but I'm really working on trying to get better), and I have fibromyalgia which means any soreness tends to really set off pain signals. Still, I have trouble learning a swing on my own, and I've found forums such as The Sand Trap more loaded with Stack and Tilt fans and often derisive of other swing methods, so it hasn't been helpful in getting feedback on my swing without it getting derailed.

I'd also be curious if the spine differenecs play out across all conventional swinging golfers.

[nitram]

[quote name='FireDragon76' timestamp='1416638075' post='10487051'] [b] There's so much focus on distance[/b], not a lot of focus on how you create a golf swing that doesn't wreck your body.
[/quote]

This is the biggest reason I see people veering from the Moe swing.

[Largechris1]

[quote name='nitram' timestamp='1416772041' post='10492533']
[quote name='FireDragon76' timestamp='1416638075' post='10487051'] [b] There's so much focus on distance[/b], not a lot of focus on how you create a golf swing that doesn't wreck your body.
[/quote]

This is the biggest reason I see people veering from the Moe swing.
[/quote]

I'm sure distance is part of the reason, but from a few excellent longer articles about Moe posted here, I just think we need all the time to bear in mind with Moe the ridiculous number of balls he hit every day. If he had a more conventional swing, what results would that amount of practice produced? Similar?

[Dinosaur]

hitting more balls does not necessarily result in more consistency. More often than not, the opposite occurs. I can only speak conclusively for myself in that once I hit a certain number of balls, I am more or less done in terms of accuracy, fatigue, perhaps. I have now adopted a practice routine whenever I hit two bad shots in succession, I just stop completely. Sometimes I may resume in a few hours, sometimes not until the next outing. I know that whenever I step out into my range in the mornings, the first five or six are nearly perfect, solid strikes. Quit while I am ahead.

[Cmartingolf]

I grew up in Ontario and met Moe when I was a little kid. I spent my fair share of time around him. He was phenomenal. But...he always said he wasn't long enough. While he was the straightest I've ever seen and likely EVER. I know, Hogan was the man, but Hogan didn't hit his stride until he was into his 30's. Moe was "Pipeline Moe" from the time he was a teenager.

To me, if you don't have a difference between the plane of the left arm and the shaft, you give up a ton of speed potential. Example; hold and aim stick in your hand, perpendicular to your forearm and rotate it. Tons of speed at the distal ends of the aim stick as the forearm rotates in place. Ulnar deviate your thumb, so the stick is in line with your forearm and rotate your forearm, the stick rotates but has no angular speed. To me, that is why Moe, despite being built like a brick sh_t house, wasn't as long as most common pro hitters and why there aren't more guys playing at a high level using that style.

[FireDragon76]

For the moment, I've gone with a more vertical swing, but not keeping my arms quite as close to my body as the "athletic" setup, and standing a little more upright.

I have fibromyalgia and I usually find hitting 30 balls at the driving range is plenty of practice for a day, especially if I am practicing several times a week. I also spend a lot of time chipping before going to driving. After hitting 4-5 balls, I take a break just to rest, since the muscles used in the golf swing are fatigued just as fast as if you were doing a set in weightlifting. Using this method, I seem to get better quality driving. Just banging on balls doesn't seem to lead to good progress because the muscles get tired fast and no improvement is made in the swing. Frequent, short practice seems the way to go.

[Golfrnut]

[quote name='Cmartingolf' timestamp='1416803107' post='10494945'] I grew up in Ontario and met Moe when I was a little kid. I spent my fair share of time around him. He was phenomenal. But...he always said he wasn't long enough. While he was the straightest I've ever seen and likely EVER. I know, Hogan was the man, but Hogan didn't hit his stride until he was into his 30's. Moe was "Pipeline Moe" from the time he was a teenager. To me, if you don't have a difference between the plane of the left arm and the shaft, you give up a ton of speed potential. Example; hold and aim stick in your hand, perpendicular to your forearm and rotate it. Tons of speed at the distal ends of the aim stick as the forearm rotates in place. Ulnar deviate your thumb, so the stick is in line with your forearm and rotate your forearm, the stick rotates but has no angular speed. To me, that is why Moe, despite being built like a brick sh_t house, wasn't as long as most common pro hitters and why there aren't more guys playing at a high level using that style. [/quote]

Ironically enough, I was playing your Moe Norman youtube video in the background last night while cleaning up my back office(I like to sound sophisticated, but it's really just full of golf clubs). I wish the video quality had been a bit higher, but it is what it is for most video from that timeframe. Very fun to watch!

[mikah]

[quote name='FireDragon76' timestamp='1416752654' post='10491287']
[media=]http://youtu.be/5T_inYYgNcg[/media]

This video has a comparison of Kirk Junge and Moe Norman vs. Tiger Woods. It's really what got me intrigued. In the video you can see Tiger's spine angle changing. It's not a huge amount but its a little bit. Whereas Kirk and Moe have the same spine angle throughout the swing.

This video got me interested in this swing because I have a weak back, I'm not in great shape (but I'm really working on trying to get better), and I have fibromyalgia which means any soreness tends to really set off pain signals. Still, I have trouble learning a swing on my own, and I've found forums such as The Sand Trap more loaded with Stack and Tilt fans and often derisive of other swing methods, so it hasn't been helpful in getting feedback on my swing without it getting derailed.

I'd also be curious if the spine differenecs play out across all conventional swinging golfers.
[/quote]




[color=#282828]Moe Normans address position was idiosyncratic, however no one was ‘underplane’ as much as Moe Norman ( Master Move), Ben Hogan and George Knudson. [/color]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1yPPC4RXUQ"]https://www.youtube....h?v=I1yPPC4RXUQ[/url]

(Junge uses Moes swing a few years before his death, after swing change)

[color=#282828]If Tiger goes the way of ‘underplane’ as Chris Como and Sasho MacKenzie discussed in their video; it may be the beginning of the end for right arm straightening and forearm rotation, as THE conventional golf swing? [/color]



[color=#282828]Easier on the back to boot. [/color]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop"]https://www.youtube.....be&app=desktop[/url]

[eagolfpro]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1416676579' post='10488053']
I believe EA Tischler, who has a biomechanical approach, said that he sees the swing evolving more towards Mo's method over time.
[/quote]

To clarify, what I mentioned with regard to Moe Norman's method is that he sets the club and arms closer to his delivery plane at address and that in the future we will see more golfers set-up with the club and arms more closely matching their delivery plane. Most players set the club along what I call the hip-plane at address. Now we see Bryson Dechambeau setting up in the shoulder-plane address alignment. So I believe we will see more golfers address the ball with the club in the torso-plane like Moe Norman, others in the Shoulder-Plane like Bryson (dispite club length) and many will still use a more conventional set-up.

[Hammer28]

My question is this: if Moe Norman's swing is touted to be the best ever or yada yada, why is there not a single playe--zero, not one, and none even resembling that swing--on the PGA Tour who uses that swing?

Bryson dechambeau uses it