ANA rules issue (Merged)

[cohenfive]

My take on this is the following--basically this is the worst ruling in the history of pro golf tours. I can understand the first 2 shot penalty for improperly replacing the ball. That being said, we should have a debate about whether a fan should be able to call in or email in a violation. We should also have a debate about a time limit for assessing a penalty. Personally I think once the next round starts, you should not be able to go back and assess on a prior round regardless.

 

However, even if you agree on the first 2 shot penalty, under no circumstance is it fair or logical to assess the second penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard. Think how absurd this is--given what everyone including the lpga knew Saturday, Lexi signed her card correctly. It then became literally impossible for her to have signed her card properly for a penalty assessed the next day. This makes no sense, and it is just plain unfair to give her a double penalty given the timing.

 

She deserves the trophy, period. The winner should give it to her, otherwise she isn't showing a lot of class imo. Does Lexi have an appeal route with the LPGA? If so she should take it, and if not she should imo consider suing the tour. They stole a major from her. Embarrassing for the game and for the LPGA. Whoever had a hand in the ruling deserves to be fired.

[RSinSG]

 

 

I just used that feedback email to tell them how I feel about their blunder.....rather harshly

 

Recommend everyone do the same. Flood that damn link with "feedback"

 

Me too. Mine was not harsh, nor was I complaining about the penalty for rules violations. I just let them know they lost a long time viewer because of their POLICY to accept input from a million viewers and let it alter the event. That is something they can change tomorrow.

 

And - I am cc'ing my concerns to all of the LPGA sponsors. They need to know how we feel.

[MarkFromTheUK]

Nobody is in the right here, other than the eventual winner.

 

Lexi broke the rules, was punished accordingly, and to the letter of the law. 4 strokes may sound harsh, but that's the correct penalty. She was a bit silly, and paid the price.

 

The LPGA were in a no win situation, and I have to say I have a bit of sympathy for them. They had to act, and there wouldn't have been a right time to do it in the eyes of the public. This would be even worse if it was later discovered that they had brushed the matter under the carpet. They would have been accused of letting a home favourite break the rules in order to win, and Lexi's victory would either be tarnished forever, or taken away from her.

 

The guy who called it in needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and reassess the direction in which his life is going. Perhaps time to move out of mom's basement.

 

As for people who are saying that Ryu should gift the trophy to Thompson, well that's just stupid. You would be rewarding someone for breaking the rules, and punishing someone is is truly innocent in all of this.

[QEight]

Nobody is in the right here, other than the eventual winner.

 

Lexi broke the rules, was punished accordingly, and to the letter of the law. 4 strokes may sound harsh, but that's the correct penalty. She was a bit silly, and paid the price.

 

The LPGA were in a no win situation, and I have to say I have a bit of sympathy for them. They had to act, and there wouldn't have been a right time to do it in the eyes of the public. This would be even worse if it was later discovered that they had brushed the matter under the carpet. They would have been accused of letting a home favourite break the rules in order to win, and Lexi's victory would either be tarnished forever, or taken away from her.

 

The guy who called it in needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and reassess the direction in which his life is going. Perhaps time to move out of mom's basement.

 

As for people who are saying that Ryu should gift the trophy to Thompson, well that's just stupid. You would be rewarding someone for breaking the rules, and punishing someone is is truly innocent in all of this.

 

I totally agree.

[DrRob1963]

This is a catastrophe for golf - women's golf in particular.

This situation simply demonstrates how inappropriate some current rules are. We need rule changes to prevent further disasters like this.

I believe:

1) Scores should be declared final at the end of each day's play.

2) Only on-site officials and players may instigate rule violation queries.

3) Where a player has gained no material advantage by an inadvertent & minor breach of ball positioning (such as ball marking, or dropping a ball), no penalty should apply.

4) If a player signs in good faith for a score, but a third party causes that score to be altered later, no additional penalty should apply.

These changes need to be made for the good of the game - OUR game - and they need to be made NOW!

[dxb]

I've read a lot of this thread prior to watching the replay, I had mistakenly assumed she marked the ball and walked off, not the case.

 

The change in ball position is blatant and would have been easier to explain had she backed off, she's marked it and then chosen a different spot to play the ball from.

 

Was it handled properly by the LPGA? Maybe not.

 

Has she done something wrong and is deserving of a penalty? Definitely.

[QEight]

This is a catastrophe for golf - women's golf in particular.

This situation simply demonstrates how inappropriate some current rules are. We need rule changes to prevent further disasters like this.

I believe:

1) Scores should be declared final at the end of each day's play.

2) Only on-site officials and players may instigate rule violation queries.

3) Where a player has gained no material advantage by an inadvertent & minor breach of ball positioning (such as ball marking, or dropping a ball), no penalty should apply.

4) If a player signs in good faith for a score, but a third party causes that score to be altered later, no additional penalty should apply.

These changes need to be made for the good of the game - OUR game - and they need to be made NOW!

 

While they sound great, all of them would raise more problems.

 

1. usually tournaments are longer than one day, so the scores will be cumulative.

2. fine

3. very difficult to draw the line

4. even if it is later proven totally wrong?

 

How many "tainted" winners we would have...

[soregongolfer]

I just watched it. I don't see a problem with how things went down. As we all know, there isn't a rules official on every hole. We also know that penalties are to be called on ourselves and player honesty is paramount. Lexi was in violation of a rule and assessed two strokes. She was then assessed another two strokes for signing an improper scorecard. That sucks, but it's better than the old way of DQing her. As far as the rules, it was assessed correctly.

 

As for how it was handled, the LPGA found out about the infraction today and acted as quickly as they could. The timing stinks, but it was the right call. How would it look if Lexi went on to win by three strokes and we had video evidence of her infraction? We got the correct winner, and that's not bad for the tour.

[DrRob1963]

This is a catastrophe for golf - women's golf in particular.

This situation simply demonstrates how inappropriate some current rules are. We need rule changes to prevent further disasters like this.

I believe:

1) Scores should be declared final at the end of each day's play.

2) Only on-site officials and players may instigate rule violation queries.

3) Where a player has gained no material advantage by an inadvertent & minor breach of ball positioning (such as ball marking, or dropping a ball), no penalty should apply.

4) If a player signs in good faith for a score, but a third party causes that score to be altered later, no additional penalty should apply.

These changes need to be made for the good of the game - OUR game - and they need to be made NOW!

 

While they sound great, all of them would raise more problems.

 

1. usually tournaments are longer than one day, so the scores will be cumulative.

2. fine

3. very difficult to draw the line

4. even if it is later proven totally wrong?

 

How many "tainted" winners we would have...

1. This must happen, so everybody knows where everyone stands at the start of each round. Any changes must occur straight away, not one or two days later as in this case. Would the NFL or NBL, or even English/Euro football, put up with a situation where the score was being altered later in the game? - even if the original ruling was incorrect? - on a fan's email????? The players need to know where they stand, and so do us fans & spectators.

2. Yep - No more armchair experts - please!

3. Leave it up to the officials' discretion - I don't see that you need an absolute quantified measure, but in this case we're looking at no more than 5mm difference on a "tap-in" 30cm putt, which Lexi holed dead-centre cup. Clearly, there was nil advantage in this case. Mind you, getting sensible officials seems to be a real problem from recent majors.

4. Absolutely! If the player honestly signed their card in good faith, with the information available at that time, why should they suffer an ADDITIONAL penalty from a later or subsequent event beyond their control or knowledge. If they cannot predict the future, they should not be punished for it. I disagree with the penalty for misplacing her ball - but I understand it. The further penalty for a wrong scorecard is just absolutely ridiculous, and laughable. And inappropriate.

Golf has the most fair-minded & honest professional players in the sporting world, and they need to be credited with that - not kicked in the most ridiculous of ways like Lexi was. Today's events only make golf a laughing stock.

I want golf to be decided on the golf course, by the players, not in some committee room by faceless officials.

[Mick Douglas]

I have 2 major issues with this ruling, double jeopardy there is no way she can be hit with the 2 shots for incorrect score card when THEIR OWN RULES don't allow LT to change the card once the 2 shot correct penalty is applied, either poorly written rules or they need another rule where referee is able to rule with discretion.

 

And I struggle to believe that during the final this email was sent by I assume a golf nut and he/she wasn't watching the final round live but re watching the 3rd round .... or he/she doesn't exist and the LPGA are covering their own a**.

[Splitter]

I'm so tired of hearing people talk about the spirit of the game while we watch something like this happen almost every year.

 

No one *knows* why she goofed, but it clearly would not affect the shot. Intent and result are important.

 

To say "we wish they would call in quicker" just shows how out of touch these idiots are. The officials and commentators. I can't believe Rankin is rolling over. From what I've seen of her, I expected different.

 

Feels like everyone trying to keep their jobs and keep the LPGA from looking like the fools that they are. Oh, wait, it's NBC... The group who's only goal is to prop up the LPGA/PGA and shine their helmets.

 

There are so many *MORE* things wrong with the ruling, it's hard to know where to start.

 

If *I* was Ryu, I would have tanked the playoff. No chance I win like that. ZERO.

[DrRob1963]

I'm so tired of hearing people talk about the spirit of the game while we watch something like this happen almost every year.

 

No one *knows* why she goofed, but it clearly would not affect the shot. Intent and result are important.

 

To say "we wish they would call in quicker" just shows how out of touch these idiots are. The officials and commentators. I can't believe Rankin is rolling over. From what I've seen of her, I expected different.

 

Feels like everyone trying to keep their jobs and keep the LPGA from looking like the fools that they are. Oh, wait, it's NBC... The group who's only goal is to prop up the LPGA/PGA and shine their helmets.

 

There are so many *MORE* things wrong with the ruling, it's hard to know where to start.

 

If *I* was Ryu, I would have tanked the playoff. No chance I win like that. ZERO.

I agree 100%! I would not want to win this way. Lexi was clearly the best golfer during this major.

This whole tournament was badly tainted by the whole rules disaster - Ryu won because the LPGA kicked Lexi. Lexi won by 4 on the golf course - that's what matters to me.

[Mick Douglas]

These idiots make the rules up as they go along and pick and choose how to police it for publicity and revenue - maybe I'm wrong but if they sting LT for signing an incorrect score card surely her playing partner did the same so ping her too whist they are in a petty childish mood.

[RBImGuy]

Lexi couldn't handle the situation, she lost, end of story.

Play by the rules and accept and adapt you be a better individual at the end.

[Awsi Dooger]

Nobody is in the right here, other than the eventual winner.

 

Lexi broke the rules, was punished accordingly, and to the letter of the law. 4 strokes may sound harsh, but that's the correct penalty. She was a bit silly, and paid the price.

 

The LPGA were in a no win situation, and I have to say I have a bit of sympathy for them. They had to act, and there wouldn't have been a right time to do it in the eyes of the public. This would be even worse if it was later discovered that they had brushed the matter under the carpet. They would have been accused of letting a home favourite break the rules in order to win, and Lexi's victory would either be tarnished forever, or taken away from her.

 

The guy who called it in needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and reassess the direction in which his life is going. Perhaps time to move out of mom's basement.

 

As for people who are saying that Ryu should gift the trophy to Thompson, well that's just stupid. You would be rewarding someone for breaking the rules, and punishing someone is is truly innocent in all of this.

 

I haven't sampled the entire thread but that's easily the best post among the pages I did read.

 

I agree with everything other than the cliche basement line. Everyone wants to assign lesser qualities to people who call in these violations. I'm always impressed. Bottom line, they saw and detected something that flashed past not only hundreds of thousands if not millions of viewers, but also went beyond TV personnel and tour officials. Everybody thinks they are paying attention. They aren't. There is also some guts involved. If your name or means to decipher your identity leaks out, obviously the SAM (Simplistic Angry Male) type is going to unleash an attack, between beers and between being scared of something else.

 

The viewer made the correct move, IMO. I would have some sympathy for Lexi if there had been a delay...if she had marked the ball and then had reason for her mind to wander, like standing up and looking toward her caddie or playing partner, etc. There was absolutely none of that. She remarked it almost immediately, after never standing up, and it was blatantly in not only a wrong spot but a slightly advantageous spot. If we are to always believe it's accidental then it should be a 50/50 split of better or worse position. It is not close to 50/50, among the known sample size, admittedly small. A few years ago Chella Choi took some online heat for a while after moving her mark on a very short putt, when there was an apparent disturbed area on the green in front of her original line.

 

I agree it was probably nothing more than forgetfulness while aligning the mark on the ball. But since it was so far removed from proper, and Lexi has a history of missing very short putts, she isn't an ideal recipient of full benefit of a doubt.

 

I have no idea how an obvious rules infraction makes one a sympathetic figure, let alone a sudden hero to fans who don't follow the sport. That was the bizarre aspect, IMO.

 

As others have suggested, I agree the penalty should be 2 shots and not 4. Once it's a day later and a penalty is still being accessed we've already established the signed and accepted scorecard is hardly the final word anymore.

 

I have to laugh at the proposals that So Yeon Ryu should have intentionally balked, or that she won't be judged the winner. Gad do I remember all the wasted time and needless stress late in pivotal sporting events, when my preference wasn't going to prevail and I desperately tried to rationalize it as okay, if not beneficial. My team will be remembered fondly. My favorite player will emerge as legend, even in defeat. What a sucker I was. That final result is the dictator. The excuses and peripherals fade. A classy player like So Yeon Ryu is not going to suffer. She'll be described as two-time major champion, and winner of both in head to head playoffs.

 

Lexi will receive a short term bump in approval and popularity. However, the notion expressed by conventional wisdom Judy Rankin that Lexi's game will surge forward as a result of this situation is low percentage and fragile. Much more often than not, athletic success jumpstarts further success while failure -- no matter how it happens -- leads to a more cluttered mind and a performance decline, at least in the short term. As a gambler I started betting against I.K. Kim in matchups almost immediately after her missed the 14 incher at Kraft several years ago. Her game suffered to such extent she played herself out of the matchup listings and eventually she took longer and longer breaks from the game.

[porkman]

What's sad about this is that Golf is one of the few games where players regularly call foul on themselves or call for a ruling on something they aren't sure about. A noble thing that sets the game apart.

 

It really needs to make video evidence inadmissible. If a penalty isn't spotted or called at the time by players or officials, then that's the end of it.

[DrRob1963]

I disagree Awsi, about the emailer. No viewer should be able to influence events during a golf tournament, especially a day after, especially with play in progress - no other sport tolerates such a scenario.

Golf should limit rule interventions to players and officials on the course.

If not, I can see a tremendous problem arising, where viewers start ringing/emailing/texting in minor rule infractions (even from earlier rounds) on the final day to help their favorite player, or even just to disrupt the tournament. If multiple viewers all believe they have seen earlier round infractions, and all ring them in while play is in progress on the final day, how can the tournament function? This has the potential to seriously disrupt golf events. It has to stop.

[forgedforever]

There are obviously two issues here: The LPGA making a ruling based on information provided by a person outside of the competition and grounds and with the use of high definition video, and the timing of the absurd second 2-stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard assessed more than 24 hours after that day's play had ended.

 

It has rightly been discussed in these situations when the person penalized has oftentimes received more scrutiny via more air time on TV than others in the field. There is a need here for equal treatment of all participants. Enough of this initiating an investigation of a rules violation based upon a phone call or email from a source outside of the competition and grounds. Just stop it. Today.

 

Splitter stated, "No one *knows* why she goofed..." Perfectly understandable. Most likely because Lexi is human and we all make mistakes. Thankfully most of us do not make them under a microscope or behind the lens of a high definition camera aided by slow motion replay.

 

What really gets my chili boiling over this incident is the second 2-stroke penalty for the signing of an incorrect scorecard. More than 24 hours after that day's competition was completed. This is going to be the LPGA's main public relations debacle out of this incident. This is simply not sitting well with fair-minded fans.

[DJ Aus]

The potential for gamblers/gambling houses to influence results like this is not something that can be dismissed in all of this. Not that I think that it is the case here but it is a vulnerability that is exposed.

[Milkers]

She got caught cheating and the odds are she does it regularly. Good lesson to learn.

[dciccoritti]

There should be a rules official on EVERY hole. Period.

 

If an opposing player or rules official catches an infraction, you call it on the spot.

 

Once a hole is played it's closed! Once a round is played, it's closed. Period.

 

As for Lexi, there's no doubt in my mind that she knew she placed that coin incorrectly and then proceeded to place the ball incorrectly. However I don't believe there was any intention to gain an advantage. Just a poor placement of the coin which she should have readjusted slightly before picking up the ball.

[tigerstew]

Rules are rules. End of. Right decision. Move on. How u forget how to mark the ball and place it in the correct position is beyond me. Correct decision

[MountainGoat]

There are obviously two issues here: The LPGA making a ruling based on information provided by a person outside of the competition and grounds and with the use of high definition video, and the timing of the absurd second 2-stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard assessed more than 24 hours after that day's play had ended.

 

It has rightly been discussed in these situations when the person penalized has oftentimes received more scrutiny via more air time on TV than others in the field. There is a need here for equal treatment of all participants. Enough of this initiating an investigation of a rules violation based upon a phone call or email from a source outside of the competition and grounds. Just stop it. Today.

 

Splitter stated, "No one *knows* why she goofed..." Perfectly understandable. Most likely because Lexi is human and we all make mistakes. Thankfully most of us do not make them under a microscope or behind the lens of a high definition camera aided by slow motion replay.

 

What really gets my chili boiling over this incident is the second 2-stroke penalty for the signing of an incorrect scorecard. More than 24 hours after that day's competition was completed. This is going to be the LPGA's main public relations debacle out of this incident. This is simply not sitting well with fair-minded fans.

 

This post most clearly states the relevant issues. It's the unequal treatment that most aggravates me. The LPGA is applying a professional conduct standard to one participant it's not applying to the others. Nobody out there replaces their ball on the exact blade of grass upon which it sat prior to marking, because it's essentially impossible. Lexi got cited because she just happened to be on TV. If Lexi herself won't take action against the LPGA, her sponsors certainly should.

[reqq]

99% of the time they line up behind the ball. Now she was standing parallell to the ball so made it harder for her to remember exact spot. Considering Petterson used a tee as ball marker, how many times did she missed the exact spot with her ball? This is the only sport that a outside person can make a huge impact of the score, thats just ridiculous. And one day after, give me a break.

[Mr.Mizzy]

I watched all of this unfold last night. My thoughts are as follows:

1. Viewers should not be able to call in...period. This is unfair to players on TV more who might make an honest mistake. I can't believe players like Wie, Mickleson, Fowler, Woods haven't been hit with silly rulings being called in with how much they are shown in broadcasts. In this case I can't see the advantage she gained on a tap-in.
   
2. However, it is what it is. The rules state this would be a 2 stroke penalty. But, I have a very hard time with an additional 2 for signing an incorrect card when 2 players and officials were good with her score yesterday.
   
3. However #2, it is what it is. The rules also make it an additional 2 strokes.
   

Part of me was hoping she did not end up winning. If she wins, this issue might have blown over fairly quickly, but now with the number of people from all walks calling for heads to roll, maybe...just maybe we can get a little common sense in the rules to our great game.

 

We want to stay traditional with rules? Great! They didn't have TVs or phones when this game began. So perhaps this is one area where tradition should continue. NO MORE CALL INs!

[Sean2]

It's no wonder people make fun of golf. The lack of foresight that went into this "ruling" is breathtaking.

 

If the LPGA and the PGA are going to continue this kind of thing then EVERY shot by EVERY player needs to be viewed (in slo-motion and zoomed in), scrutinized, and adjudicated.

[reqq]

Seems some EU people thinks this is ok?? Guys how many times in our big soccer leagues, every damn week the judge misses a penalty, sees the wrong thing and yet his words are final? Thats ok but this is not? Are you for real?

[Shankieboink]

Just stupid. 4 shot penalty for that? If she got 1 shot penalty for that misstake, but 4? Golf really is a silly stupid game sometimes. I don't care that someone call it in. That's not the problem. The problem is the ruling. People who can't see that a 4 shot penalty is absurd are just blind. Also, what would happen if we watched ice hockey and all of the sudden the other team got a goal dismissed in the end of the game becuse someone call in on a high stick prior to a goal from the first period. No it wouldn't happen becuse ice hockey is a sport. If golf want to be a sport and not just some silly game, s*** like this needs to end.

[FriedEgg]

Simple fix - end the call ins

[tigerstew]

Just stupid. 4 shot penalty for that? If she got 1 shot penalty for that misstake, but 4? Golf really is a silly stupid game sometimes. I don't care that someone call it in. That's not the problem. The problem is the ruling. People who can't see that a 4 shot penalty is absurd are just blind. Also, what would happen if we watched ice hockey and all of the sudden the other team got a goal dismissed in the end of the game becuse someone call in on a high stick prior to a goal from the first period. No it wouldn't happen becuse ice hockey is a sport. If golf want to be a sport and not just some silly game, s*** like this needs to end.

 

Rules are rules. End of. Stop moaning