2017 NBA Season (incl Draft / Free Agency)

[jerebear21]

Ok at least we are done with the TD over LBJ idiocy.

 

LBJ and Michael are close. MJ still a half step ahead. If he didn't take the 2 year "haitus" and didn't play for the Wizards he would probably 2 steps ahead but he did and his greatness suffered because of that.

 

If you going to call him out for that then you got to call Lebron James out for joining up with All stars twice in his prime. That would make up those lost steps.

 

And when Jordan played in Washington he was almost 40. Come on man. That’s like Karl Malone joining the Lakers at the end of his career. People don’t give Karl flak for that. We remember him for his greatness during the jazz era.

 

They are not close. They will never be close.

[xxio]

Yes.

 

LBJ should have built a team. Just like KD.

 

GOAT is ALL Time. Not just in his prime. If in "prime" only then I would rank Bill Walton who had 2 unbelievably spectacular years over TD, but that is not a reality. Jordan's Wiz years count. So will LBJ's if he makes a comeback at 45.

 

Btw the reason why Pippen's Bulls went 31-31 before Jordan's return. The Bulls tried trading him draft night (to Seattle) and all throughout the season. How's that as a distraction?

[xxio]

Magic made a comeback 15-7-6 and 53 wins.

 

Did that help or hurt?

 

I would say it hurt a bit but not enough to bring him outside top 10 all time because of the 53 wins.

[jerebear21]

Yes.

 

LBJ should have built a team. Just like KD.

 

GOAT is ALL Time. Not just in his prime. If in "prime" only then I would rank Bill Walton who had 2 unbelievably spectacular years over TD, but that is not a reality. Jordan's Wiz years count. So will LBJ's if he makes a comeback at 45.

 

Btw the reason why Pippen's Bulls went 31-31 before Jordan's return. The Bulls tried trading him draft night (to Seattle) and all throughout the season. How's that as a distraction?

 

Jordan went 20+ Ppg as a 40 year old. His body of work is fine.

Discrediting his greatness because he couldn’t score 35 points as a 40 year old is laughable.

[spazo]

It's amazing how everyone in this thread basically agrees but it still reads like an argument

[MtlJeff]

It's amazing how everyone in this thread basically agrees but it still reads like an argument

 

You are correct, you jerk

[F171615]

Can we just disagree to agree.

[cdnglf]

Everyone knows Kareem is the GOAT anyway.

[deadsolid...shank]

Can we just disagree to agree.

 

No!

[xxio]

Yes.

 

LBJ should have built a team. Just like KD.

 

GOAT is ALL Time. Not just in his prime. If in "prime" only then I would rank Bill Walton who had 2 unbelievably spectacular years over TD, but that is not a reality. Jordan's Wiz years count. So will LBJ's if he makes a comeback at 45.

 

Btw the reason why Pippen's Bulls went 31-31 before Jordan's return. The Bulls tried trading him draft night (to Seattle) and all throughout the season. How's that as a distraction?

 

Jordan went 20+ Ppg as a 40 year old. His body of work is fine.

Discrediting his greatness because he couldn’t score 35 points as a 40 year old is laughable.

 

Not saying he was no longer good but he did that playing 37minutes on a losing team.

 

Kareem's doesn't get enough credit because of the last years he hung on (he needed the $$$. House burned down I think). Shaq's Celtics and Cavs years bring Hakeem closer to him.

 

The argument being used against LBJ measures stats AND winning. MJ carrying a losing team at the end of his career counts. He should have stayed retired.

 

You also can't turn around and say Pippen was overrated with slightly better numbers that Wizard-MJ going 31-31 with the trade distraction from day1.

 

Jordan's sidekick was voted 50 Greatest. When LBJ's sidekicks careers are over, only 1 will ever be considered for top 75 all time and even then he will be behind Pippen.

[jerebear21]

Yes.

 

LBJ should have built a team. Just like KD.

 

GOAT is ALL Time. Not just in his prime. If in "prime" only then I would rank Bill Walton who had 2 unbelievably spectacular years over TD, but that is not a reality. Jordan's Wiz years count. So will LBJ's if he makes a comeback at 45.

 

Btw the reason why Pippen's Bulls went 31-31 before Jordan's return. The Bulls tried trading him draft night (to Seattle) and all throughout the season. How's that as a distraction?

 

Jordan went 20+ Ppg as a 40 year old. His body of work is fine.

Discrediting his greatness because he couldn’t score 35 points as a 40 year old is laughable.

 

Not saying he was no longer good but he did that playing 37minutes on a losing team.

 

Kareem's doesn't get enough credit because of the last years he hung on (he needed the $$$. House burned down I think). Shaq's Celtics and Cavs years bring Hakeem closer to him.

 

The argument being used against LBJ measures stats AND winning. MJ carrying a losing team at the end of his career counts. He should have stayed retired.

 

You also can't turn around and say Pippen was overrated with slightly better numbers that Wizard-MJ going 31-31 with the trade distraction from day1.

 

Jordan's sidekick was voted 50 Greatest. When LBJ's sidekicks careers are over, only 1 will ever be considered for top 75 all time and even then he will be behind Pippen.

 

I said pippen is vastly over rated in the context that he was the main reason the bulls broke through.

 

Pippen was never the best player during any of the finals. Jordan would have still won without pippen whereas pippen can’t win with the same bulls team without Jordan. Thus explained why they were 31-31 following pippen second year being the alpha dog. Don’t give me the trade rumors. That team was going no where until Jordan came back.

 

There were games in the finals that pippen didn’t even show up. That’s a fact. Jordan carried everyone of those finals bulls team. (6x finals mvp)

 

Game 6 in 98. Pippen was out most of the game. Jordan didn’t need him to win one of the most epic finals of all time.

 

 

Lebron was shell shocked against the Mavericks and wasted Dwayne wades amazing effort. I guess that should be considered a blip as well? The body of work is there. 6 finals mvp. 6-0 in finals.

[pinhigh27]

You are correct. Losing 6 finals when you are the best player in the league validates where your place is in history. Thanks for correcting me.

 

Again, opinion vs fact. The best players in their world lose games, matches, tournaments, championships, majors. That doesn't mean they aren't who they are still, there is so much more involved than that. Tiger at his peak, Brady, Federer, Serena, etc etc....all have lost. Still looked at as the greatest or one of the best ever in their sports. Not sure what point you're making.

 

Lebron doesn't have the same record as Mj in the finals, though he's been to more. Same with Brady and Montana, that's where a lot of people end their debate simply based on rings. To me that's a bit shallow in the big picture. However, those discussions comparing the two are as valid and legit as it gets. Regardless of personal opinions all four I just mentioned are easily interchangeable for some, or 1 and 2 clearly for others...however likely most people would accept they are the two best there has been and the discussion is there no doubt.

 

How is losing 6 finals not a fact. That in itself is a fact. That’s why you don’t see jerry west ranked in the top 10 even though he was one of the most dominant player of all time. He lost what 8-9 finals? Now your opinion is losing 6 finals don’t matter. But the fact is losing 6 finals do matter. Wilt chamberlain dominated the league 10x more than lebron but we know he will never be the goat. Your bias love affair for lebron is obvious.

 

When you join up with top 10 players in the league and still lose in the final then you’re automatically off the list. Losing to dirk with wade and bosh in their prime. Losing to an old man Duncan and 1 kawhi when he wasn’t even considered elite yet. Those are the facts. Jordan never lost in a final to a team he wasn’t supposed to beat. That’s why he is the goat. He is flawless. Lebron is flawed. Final records speaks for itself. Fact.

 

So all that counts is Finals record? Doesn’t count if you lost before the Finals?

 

This is a great point... It does appear that LeBron making it to the Finals and not winning is actually being detreimental to his legacy. If you look at playoff percentages the numbers are really close, Jordan made it to the Finals but also loss more series before making it there.

 

This was before these playoffs:

 

Jordan won 119 playoff games and lost 60 for a Playoff Win % of 66.48%.

LeBron so far has won 154 games and lost 79, for a total Playoff Win % of 66.09%

 

not to mention maintaining same percentage over more games is more impressive.

 

Also show me a team jordan played that was like golden state. GSW is the best NBA team ever.

[scratchswinger]

Yes.

 

LBJ should have built a team. Just like KD.

 

GOAT is ALL Time. Not just in his prime. If in "prime" only then I would rank Bill Walton who had 2 unbelievably spectacular years over TD, but that is not a reality. Jordan's Wiz years count. So will LBJ's if he makes a comeback at 45.

 

Btw the reason why Pippen's Bulls went 31-31 before Jordan's return. The Bulls tried trading him draft night (to Seattle) and all throughout the season. How's that as a distraction?

 

Jordan went 20+ Ppg as a 40 year old. His body of work is fine.

Discrediting his greatness because he couldn’t score 35 points as a 40 year old is laughable.

 

Not saying he was no longer good but he did that playing 37minutes on a losing team.

 

Kareem's doesn't get enough credit because of the last years he hung on (he needed the $$$. House burned down I think). Shaq's Celtics and Cavs years bring Hakeem closer to him.

 

The argument being used against LBJ measures stats AND winning. MJ carrying a losing team at the end of his career counts. He should have stayed retired.

 

You also can't turn around and say Pippen was overrated with slightly better numbers that Wizard-MJ going 31-31 with the trade distraction from day1.

 

Jordan's sidekick was voted 50 Greatest. When LBJ's sidekicks careers are over, only 1 will ever be considered for top 75 all time and even then he will be behind Pippen.

 

I said pippen is vastly over rated in the context that he was the main reason the bulls broke through.

 

Pippen was never the best player during any of the finals. Jordan would have still won without pippen whereas pippen can’t win with the same bulls team without Jordan. Thus explained why they were 31-31 following pippen second year being the alpha dog. Don’t give me the trade rumors. That team was going no where until Jordan came back.

 

There were games in the finals that pippen didn’t even show up. That’s a fact. Jordan carried everyone of those finals bulls team. (6x finals mvp)

 

Game 6 in 98. Pippen was out most of the game. Jordan didn’t need him to win one of the most epic finals of all time.

 

 

Lebron was shell shocked against the Mavericks and wasted Dwayne wades amazing effort. I guess that should be considered a blip as well? The body of work is there. 6 finals mvp. 6-0 in finals.

 

The last Bulls/ Jazz Finals was far from epic, it was a great ending by MJ but not an epic Finals.

 

That 31/31 team with MJ lost in the second round of the playoffs.

 

Nobody is saying that LeBron is better than MJ. This started when you said Duncan was better than LeBron but you have since sobered up and admitted that you were wrong and that your bias hatred got you all emotional and you made a silly decision. Now it’s time to come to your senses and admit the gap between MJ and LeBron isn’t a shopping mall or Walmart, it’s a 7/11 as the gap has narrowed.

[xxio]

I don't anyone ever said Pippen was the reason the Bulls broke through. The Bulls were Jordan's team.

 

It's just that the year after he first retired Pippen was still able to take them somewhere 55-27.

 

I think MJ's Bulls record without Scotty is 108-138 and MJ posted spectacular numbers but we all know its about individual stats but winning ?.

[jerebear21]

Yes.

 

LBJ should have built a team. Just like KD.

 

GOAT is ALL Time. Not just in his prime. If in "prime" only then I would rank Bill Walton who had 2 unbelievably spectacular years over TD, but that is not a reality. Jordan's Wiz years count. So will LBJ's if he makes a comeback at 45.

 

Btw the reason why Pippen's Bulls went 31-31 before Jordan's return. The Bulls tried trading him draft night (to Seattle) and all throughout the season. How's that as a distraction?

 

Jordan went 20+ Ppg as a 40 year old. His body of work is fine.

Discrediting his greatness because he couldn’t score 35 points as a 40 year old is laughable.

 

Not saying he was no longer good but he did that playing 37minutes on a losing team.

 

Kareem's doesn't get enough credit because of the last years he hung on (he needed the $$$. House burned down I think). Shaq's Celtics and Cavs years bring Hakeem closer to him.

 

The argument being used against LBJ measures stats AND winning. MJ carrying a losing team at the end of his career counts. He should have stayed retired.

 

You also can't turn around and say Pippen was overrated with slightly better numbers that Wizard-MJ going 31-31 with the trade distraction from day1.

 

Jordan's sidekick was voted 50 Greatest. When LBJ's sidekicks careers are over, only 1 will ever be considered for top 75 all time and even then he will be behind Pippen.

 

I said pippen is vastly over rated in the context that he was the main reason the bulls broke through.

 

Pippen was never the best player during any of the finals. Jordan would have still won without pippen whereas pippen can’t win with the same bulls team without Jordan. Thus explained why they were 31-31 following pippen second year being the alpha dog. Don’t give me the trade rumors. That team was going no where until Jordan came back.

 

There were games in the finals that pippen didn’t even show up. That’s a fact. Jordan carried everyone of those finals bulls team. (6x finals mvp)

 

Game 6 in 98. Pippen was out most of the game. Jordan didn’t need him to win one of the most epic finals of all time.

 

 

Lebron was shell shocked against the Mavericks and wasted Dwayne wades amazing effort. I guess that should be considered a blip as well? The body of work is there. 6 finals mvp. 6-0 in finals.

 

The last Bulls/ Jazz Finals was far from epic, it was a great ending by MJ but not an epic Finals.

 

That 31/31 team with MJ lost in the second round of the playoffs.

 

Nobody is saying that LeBron is better than MJ. This started when you said Duncan was better than LeBron but you have since sobered up and admitted that you were wrong and that your bias hatred got you all emotional and you made a silly decision. Now it’s time to come to your senses and admit the gap between MJ and LeBron isn’t a shopping mall or Walmart, it’s a 7/11 as the gap has narrowed.

 

False. I said I picked Duncan over lebron. Which I still would. He has a game and a resume which I for one appreciate more. And the gap will always be a gap. It will never be narrowed. You’re the one who suggest one day it will be narrowed and possibly surpassed.

[jerebear21]

I don't anyone ever said Pippen was the reason the Bulls broke through. The Bulls were Jordan's team.

 

It's just that the year after he first retired Pippen was still able to take them somewhere 55-27.

 

I think MJ's Bulls record without Scotty is 108-138 and MJ posted spectacular numbers but we all know its about individual stats but winning ?.

 

Did you include his rookie season and the 2nd season when he missed half a season with a broken foot? How convenient.

 

And his record was 193-187 including those years and the Washington years which is far from your suggested losing record.

[pinhigh27]

Lol the gap will never be narrowed? What a Homer. If LeBron would win 3 more titles I a row it would be almost impossible to argue he isn't superior. You can say one is above other but to say there's no chance LeBron can ever pass him, you're just being biased.

[jerebear21]

Lol the gap will never be narrowed? What a Homer. If LeBron would win 3 more titles I a row it would be almost impossible to argue he isn't superior. You can say one is above other but to say there's no chance LeBron can ever pass him, you're just being biased.

 

To go with soon to be 6 finals loss? That’s jerry west and wilt chamberlain territory. As long as golden state continues their dominance he will be in the 8-9 finals losses territory when All is said and done.

 

And he has no one to blame but himself. He created this super team era when he took his talent to south beach. That moved and the subsequent led to Kevin Durant going to golden state. I have no hate for lebron. But he did this to himself.

[xxio]

Do you think these Warriors can take any of those Jordan teams to at least a game 6?

[jerebear21]

THIS WARRIORS team.

 

Honestly if they play 10 times, I'll give the edge to warriors 6-4.

[jerebear21]

Super teams getting together.

Bucks with Alcindor joining Roberston.

Lakers with Payton and Malone

Houston with Barkley and Drexler

Celtics with KG and Allen.

 

The only difference is Lebron made it a spectacle (I prefer circus myself) with "the Decision".

 

Come on........ You are reaching. Barkley and drexler joining houston in their mid 30s.....

KG and Allen were the brain child of Boston's management and they too were FAR from their prime.

Lakers payton and malone....... oh goodness sake.

 

They all battled each other in their prime. You seriously have to be trolling now.

[xxio]

Super teams getting together.

Bucks with Alcindor joining Roberston.

Lakers with Payton and Malone

Houston with Barkley and Drexler

Celtics with KG and Allen.

 

The only difference is Lebron made it a spectacle (I prefer circus myself) with "the Decision".

 

Come on........ You are reaching. Barkley and drexler joining houston in their mid 30s.....

KG and Allen were the brain child of Boston's management and they too were FAR from their prime.

Lakers payton and malone....... oh goodness sake.

 

They all battled each other in their prime. You seriously have to be trolling now.

 

Sorry for the deletion. I was going to edit.

 

That Celtics team won a title.

That Lakers team was a Malone injury from a title (that is how important he still was).

That Rockets team was a Stockton 3pointer from the Finals.

[jerebear21]

Super teams getting together.

Bucks with Alcindor joining Roberston.

Lakers with Payton and Malone

Houston with Barkley and Drexler

Celtics with KG and Allen.

 

The only difference is Lebron made it a spectacle (I prefer circus myself) with "the Decision".

 

Come on........ You are reaching. Barkley and drexler joining houston in their mid 30s.....

KG and Allen were the brain child of Boston's management and they too were FAR from their prime.

Lakers payton and malone....... oh goodness sake.

 

They all battled each other in their prime. You seriously have to be trolling now.

 

Sorry for the deletion. I was going to edit.

 

That Celtics team won a title.

That Lakers team was a Malone injury from a title (that is how important he still was).

That Rockets team was a Stockton 3pointer from the Finals.

 

The point is they didn't join in their prime. He's getting flak because it was unprecedented collaboration among superstars to line up their free agency years in advance to eventually join forces. This super team was happening and he was the brainchild of it. Never in the precedent of the league has this ever occurred. Players were traded on the back end of their career or signed for minimum to "chase the ring" which is what all your examples were.

 

That lakers team was soundly defeated 4-1. An old man malone wasn't going to do much against Ben Wallace's Defense.

 

I see that you're trying really hard to defend Lebron and I get it. But he made the decision and he has to bear the burden of it.

 

He forced Durant's hand when he conveniently wrote his homecoming letter. And now he's playing with scrubs because he drove Kyrie away with his indecisiveness. If he was committed to staying in cleveland and finishing his career(as his home letter suggested) then why did he continue to sign those 1 year deals? Kyrie saw that he was about to be left at the alter and decided to chase his own destiny. Lebron essentially buried his own legacy when kyrie left. Had he stayed in cleveland and won 1-2 titles without his south beach hoorah, none of this super team crap would have came up and KD's path would have been different.(KD even admitted Lebron's decision made his decision)

 

GSW was a talented team but it was kerr that created this juggernaut. No one saw this coming. They were a talented team built from nothing and added some sound acquisitions and will go down as one of my favorite team of all time. (PRE-KD of course)

[scratchswinger]

So he will never be nearly as good as MJ because of a decision he made to join another team. I think you are miss understanding the actual criteria for the list of best ever. We are referring to playing the actual game of basketball.

[jerebear21]

So he will never be nearly as good as MJ because of a decision he made to join another team. I think you are miss understanding the actual criteria for the list of best ever. We are referring to playing the actual game of basketball.

 

and losing soon to be 6 finals? Jerry West played at the highest level during his career and is called MR. Logo for a reason (1-8 in finals). Wilt Chamberlain had 55 rebound games and conveniently lead the league in assists when he was criticized for not passing enough. If anything he dominated the league more than lebron did physically (2-4 in finals). Were they both not dominant and dominated the league like never before? Every generation will have players that will be better or dominate the league. There's got to be a line in the sand somewhere.

[scratchswinger]

You mean Wilt Chamberlin of the 60's?

 

This is a roster that he played against. You think this was the best competition in the world? Do me a favor, go get your handicap under 0 before we continue this conversation. I want you to fell what it's like to be the best golfer on your block before we continue with this discussion.

 

 

[jerebear21]

You mean Wilt Chamberlin of the 60's?

 

This is a roster that he played against. You think this was the best competition in the world? Do me a favor, go get your handicap under 0 before we continue this conversation. I want you to fell what it's like to be the best golfer on your block before we continue with this discussion.

 

 

 

classy side swiped. Temper temper. Yes the same chamberlain. Every player of their generation will dominate. Lebron is 6'9 270lbs and is a genetic freak for this generation just like Wilt was for his generation.

 

We know you love lebron. Just admit you're on his balls.

[scratchswinger]

You mean Wilt Chamberlin of the 60's?

 

This is a roster that he played against. You think this was the best competition in the world? Do me a favor, go get your handicap under 0 before we continue this conversation. I want you to fell what it's like to be the best golfer on your block before we continue with this discussion.

 

 

 

classy side swiped. Temper temper. Yes the same chamberlain. Every player of their generation will dominate. Lebron is 6'9 270lbs and is a genetic freak for this generation just like Wilt was for his generation.

 

We know you love lebron. Just admit you're on his balls.

 

I am actually a bigger Jordan fan then I am LeBron, I like Kobe more than LeBron.

 

You basically just proved all of our points... LeBron is a freak among freaks. In a room of the most talented, freaky athletes on the earth at any point and time, LeBron is uncommon compared to the others in that room (Jordan is in the same room as LeBron). He just happens to play basketball and is really good at it. To say that Duncan is better and the gap between MJ and LeBron can never be closed because you don't agree with LeBron's decision to join another team is biased. LeBron is special among special people, he is really f****** good at ball. You should appreciate it now because you had the chance to see the best two ever play in their prime, we may not have this discussion for another 40 years so don't take it for granted and be bitter because of a decision you don't agree with.

[jerebear21]

You mean Wilt Chamberlin of the 60's?

 

This is a roster that he played against. You think this was the best competition in the world? Do me a favor, go get your handicap under 0 before we continue this conversation. I want you to fell what it's like to be the best golfer on your block before we continue with this discussion.

 

 

 

classy side swiped. Temper temper. Yes the same chamberlain. Every player of their generation will dominate. Lebron is 6'9 270lbs and is a genetic freak for this generation just like Wilt was for his generation.

 

We know you love lebron. Just admit you're on his balls.

 

I am actually a bigger Jordan fan then I am LeBron, I like Kobe more than LeBron.

 

You basically just proved all of our points... LeBron is a freak among freaks. In a room of the most talented, freaky athletes on the earth at any point and time, LeBron is uncommon compared to the others in that room (Jordan is in the same room as LeBron). He just happens to play basketball and is really good at it. To say that Duncan is better and the gap between MJ and LeBron can never be closed because you don't agree with LeBron's decision to join another team is biased. LeBron is special among special people, he is really f****** good at ball. You should appreciate it now because you had the chance to see the best two ever play in their prime, we may not have this discussion for another 40 years so don't take it for granted and be bitter because of a decision you don't agree with.

 

False. The same athletic folks from the 60s and 70s saw Wilt as the Freak. The same NBA folks this generation saw Lebron as a freak. Every generation has players that will stand out as an anomaly and will do things that their peers can't. You can't toss out a bunch of white boys and say they're not good players. At the time they were.

 

No one here is bitter. I'm rooting for Lebron to win this series but he won't(which is his own undoing just like his move to south beach tainted his legacy). If anything you're the one that's name calling and making slight comments about my handicap which comes off as childish and bitter. I'm good. I love talking and watching NBA. Not some sheep that follows the ESPN narrative.

 

He can never be close cause he will lose not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6.... and possibly 7, 8, finals. AND the irony of this current GSW superteam was his doing.

[MtlJeff]

Whoa whoa, no one told me there would be Bob Pettit bashing in this thread. He was the Tim Duncan of the 60's. Plus the guy could literally eat in any diner he wanted.