Why no nasty short putts on tour?

[ex0dus]

 

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

If the pins are "improperly placed" on severe slopes or knobs they aren't harder than pins that are properly placed?

 

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that lol.

 

Not necessarily. If the pin is smack dab in the middle of the green and on a slope and the greens are rolling at 8 it's not that difficult. If a pin is located on a flat spot tucked 4 paces behind a bunker and 4 paces from the edge and the greens are rock hard and 12 then it's more difficult. Difficulty takes into account all the factors that play into a situation, not just one (slope).

 

It's not really that complicated, then again this is deteriorating into one of those stupid disputes between people with a lot of knowledge and experience trying to explain something and people with little knowledge or experience going "yeah but I assume it works differently!"

 

If the greens are 8 the uphill putts are going to be rolling back if you miss. If you actually read the topic title it is about short putts. If you are hitting a 4 footer it doesn't matter if it is in the middle of the green or not.

[BenHoganSlam1953]

I've never had a flat putt on a course ... which is why I'm relearning to power through that little bit of break (got outta practice with the technique) and accept if I miss the ball is 3-6 feet past. However, going up through the ranks the current (and past) professional golfers had to deal with the same stuff as us. Personally I don't care either way whether they always have those slippery little sliders, but I have seen enough of them miss short putts to know that they do deal with it - maybe not as much, but they must be ready for it.

[nochct1]

Here is a fact: Jordan Spieths scoring average in college in 2012 was 70.92, he also played 5 event on the PGA tour that season and had a scoring average of 70.639. If the PGA tour is so much harder than what the rest of the course we play, shouldn't there be a difference the other way? Almost every good player who comes on tour from college takes the "challenge" with ease (Rahm being the latest player to do so). I know they are world class and plays a whole other game than us, but I do think playing on the PGA tour gives you an easier game than many here thinks. The setup with no lost balls, hard and fast fairways for extra roll and perfect fast greens makes up for many of the harder problems they face.

 

Have you discussed your theory with anyone who has played on the PGA Tour?

 

[mjen43]

Pins should never be cut on slopes in tournaments. They can be near the edge or bottom of a slope, but I agree with other posters that unless the entire green slopes the hole should be cut on a flattish portion at least three feet around the hole.

 

 

correct.

• An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
  

 

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16

 

These are just recommendations though. There are no rules for where pins can or cannot be placed on the green. They are obviously going to try and avoid placing pins in locations where it is not physically possible to stop the ball, but no sane-minded individual with competitive golf experience would ever argue that pins are easier in competition (especially college and professional level) than in day to day play.

 

I have noticed that the best way to create a heated debate on this forum is to create a thread based on a false premise. Excellent work OP.

[mjen43]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

[Valtiel]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

 

I guess that depends on the definition of "smash", but its pretty safe to say that pros regularly hit 3-5ft putts with enough force to go 10+ feet fairly often. It doesn't shrink the size of the hole, it removes the variable introduced by any break.

[mjen43]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

 

I guess that depends on the definition of "smash", but its pretty safe to say that pros regularly hit 3-5ft putts with enough force to go 10+ feet fairly often. It doesn't shrink the size of the hole, it removes the variable introduced by any break.

 

Lol. Ok. Whatever you say.

 

Educate yourself on effective cup size and capture speed. I cannot do everything for you. Break is not some variable one can eliminate. It must be accurately accounted for.

[Valtiel]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

 

I guess that depends on the definition of "smash", but its pretty safe to say that pros regularly hit 3-5ft putts with enough force to go 10+ feet fairly often. It doesn't shrink the size of the hole, it removes the variable introduced by any break.

 

Lol. Ok. Whatever you say.

 

Ok 10ft might be pushing it a touch, but they regularly hit these short putts with enough force to double the distance of the putt.

 

 

[Thrillhouse]

Here is a fact: Jordan Spieths scoring average in college in 2012 was 70.92, he also played 5 event on the PGA tour that season and had a scoring average of 70.639. If the PGA tour is so much harder than what the rest of the course we play, shouldn't there be a difference the other way? Almost every good player who comes on tour from college takes the "challenge" with ease (Rahm being the latest player to do so). I know they are world class and plays a whole other game than us, but I do think playing on the PGA tour gives you an easier game than many here thinks. The setup with no lost balls, hard and fast fairways for extra roll and perfect fast greens makes up for many of the harder problems they face.

 

Because top tier college events aren't held on courses "we" play too often either. They are set up very difficult as well.

 

This.

 

My buddy is at a big time D1 school right now, his tournaments schedule last year (just college events) included Erin hills, oak tree in Oklahoma, golf club of Georgia, cypress point (match play event, I don't know how hard cypress is because it's short), etc.

 

They play really tough courses at the highest level of D1 college golf, many venues are tougher than some PGA tour venues.

 

To your second point (ristlager): In no way is the PGA tour easier than what we play on the weekend with our buddies. If you were a member at quail hollow it would play easier every week you played it than it does for the tournament because the rough will be down and the green speed will be lower as well, also the greens will be softer so they don't die.

 

This is coupled with the fact that for us, when we play on the weekend, and I know I sound like a broken record here, the pins are all smack dab in the middle of every green, EVERY green! Your greenskeepeer simply doesn't tuck pins the way that the tour (or any tour) does for a professional event. We all spend our non competitive lives with nothing but green light pins all day every day. They just never tuck them, it would slow play down too much if they did. There is a golf digest interview with mark mccumber from the 90s where he's talking about 17 at sawgrass where he played at back then, and he said "it doesn't matter if you're -8 going into that hole playing with your buddies or if it's Friday in the tournament, that hole makes you nervous". The point is that he's playing the same course all year and with his buddies in September it's a cake walk for him, but during the tournament with that setup and those conditions? Way harder.

 

The reason why you don't see lost balls on tour is largely because they aren't blowing it out of bounds too often, it's because they're good, not that hazards disappear that week. Also a hard and fast golf course is always harder than a soft one (way harder), the extra run out doesn't help them as much as people think, that's why when it rains and the course plays soft they shoot a million under, they're just flagging driving range 7 irons all day long and it's hard to miss fairways when 95% of your tee shots land in the fairway anyway, so it eliminates that variable.

[Thrillhouse]

 

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

If the pins are "improperly placed" on severe slopes or knobs they aren't harder than pins that are properly placed?

 

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that lol.

 

Not necessarily. If the pin is smack dab in the middle of the green and on a slope and the greens are rolling at 8 it's not that difficult. If a pin is located on a flat spot tucked 4 paces behind a bunker and 4 paces from the edge and the greens are rock hard and 12 then it's more difficult. Difficulty takes into account all the factors that play into a situation, not just one (slope).

 

It's not really that complicated, then again this is deteriorating into one of those stupid disputes between people with a lot of knowledge and experience trying to explain something and people with little knowledge or experience going "yeah but I assume it works differently!"

 

If the greens are 8 the uphill putts are going to be rolling back if you miss. If you actually read the topic title it is about short putts. If you are hitting a 4 footer it doesn't matter if it is in the middle of the green or not.

 

Where are you playing that this actually happens on a regular basis? Because I've played a ton of golf in my life on a ton of different courses and outside of ironman tournaments where they do that on purpose I've literally never seen it. It's just nonsense.

[mjen43]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

 

I guess that depends on the definition of "smash", but its pretty safe to say that pros regularly hit 3-5ft putts with enough force to go 10+ feet fairly often. It doesn't shrink the size of the hole, it removes the variable introduced by any break.

 

Lol. Ok. Whatever you say.

 

Ok 10ft might be pushing it a touch, but they regularly hit these short putts with enough force to double the distance of the putt.

 

 

 

I think regularly is stretching it. The make rate from 3 feet on tour is 95%. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. I don't think a couple of videos of one notoriously terrible putter and one inconsistent putter, at best, hitting a couple 3 footers 4 feet by is representative of how tour players successfully navigate this range of putts. I think it actually does the opposite and proves my point. Those 5% of missed 3 footers are likely to have some combination of bad speed (probably too hard as I don't see many 3 footers left short on tour) and slightly offline. Those putts you posted all hit the hole. They would have gone in if they did not hit the putts at a speed that effectively shrunk the cup size less than the 4.25" it actually is.

[McCann1]

 

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

If the pins are "improperly placed" on severe slopes or knobs they aren't harder than pins that are properly placed?

 

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that lol.

 

Not necessarily. If the pin is smack dab in the middle of the green and on a slope and the greens are rolling at 8 it's not that difficult. If a pin is located on a flat spot tucked 4 paces behind a bunker and 4 paces from the edge and the greens are rock hard and 12 then it's more difficult. Difficulty takes into account all the factors that play into a situation, not just one (slope).

 

It's not really that complicated, then again this is deteriorating into one of those stupid disputes between people with a lot of knowledge and experience trying to explain something and people with little knowledge or experience going "yeah but I assume it works differently!"

 

If the greens are 8 the uphill putts are going to be rolling back if you miss. If you actually read the topic title it is about short putts. If you are hitting a 4 footer it doesn't matter if it is in the middle of the green or not.

 

Where are you playing that this actually happens on a regular basis? Because I've played a ton of golf in my life on a ton of different courses and outside of ironman tournaments where they do that on purpose I've literally never seen it. It's just nonsense.

OP didn't want to be told his sudden realization of easy pins on tour was actually false. We could have Mike Davis tell him the pins are harder on tour and I don't think OP would believe it

[McCann1]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

 

I guess that depends on the definition of "smash", but its pretty safe to say that pros regularly hit 3-5ft putts with enough force to go 10+ feet fairly often. It doesn't shrink the size of the hole, it removes the variable introduced by any break.

 

Lol. Ok. Whatever you say.

 

Ok 10ft might be pushing it a touch, but they regularly hit these short putts with enough force to double the distance of the putt.

 

 

 

I think regularly is stretching it. The make rate from 3 feet on tour is 95%. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. I don't think a couple of videos of one notoriously terrible putter and one inconsistent putter, at best, hitting a couple 3 footers 4 feet by is representative of how tour players successfully navigate this range of putts. I think it actually does the opposite and proves my point. Those 5% of missed 3 footers are likely to have some combination of bad speed (probably too hard as I don't see many 3 footers left short on tour) and slightly offline. Those putts you posted all hit the hole. They would have gone in if they did not hit the putts at a speed that effectively shrunk the cup size less than the 4.25" it actually is.

I agree with both of you to a point. Yes hitting them firmer is usually the way to go, but not so firm we make the hole smaller. After getting in ample practice to learn the speed I think we adjust to the firmest speed we can manage to take out the most break possible without risking a hard lip out. But we're human, sometimes we hit it a tad soft and sometimes just kill the thing.

[ex0dus]

 

Where are you playing that this actually happens on a regular basis? Because I've played a ton of golf in my life on a ton of different courses and outside of ironman tournaments where they do that on purpose I've literally never seen it. It's just nonsense.

 

You are lucky then. I have seen it a bunch of times. I have also had plenty of downhill putts where the only way to stop it near the hole is to hit the hole. I can just touch the ball with my finger to get it rolling and watch it go 5+ feet past the hole. When you have non-golfers setting the pins you are going to get some bad ones. It was even worse a few years ago. There are some pin positions that they just don't use any more due to all the complaints.

 

My cousin just joined a club (Washington Golf in Arlington, VA) that has a handful of greens that are even worse. I went out there one day in the spring when the greens were slow and on a couple of holes i sat there and hit a bunch of downhill putts just to see if I could get one to stop anywhere near the hole.It was a struggle. If the greens were their normal speeds i wouldn't have been able to keep them on the green. Not coincidentally they about to renovate the course.

 

It is nonsense, and it is the type of nonsense many of us have to deal with on a regular basis. Add in the fact that the greens are bumpier than tour greens and it makes short putts a headache. Hence the thread topic.

 

I think it was Zach Johnson who said his putting immediately got better as soon as he made it to the tour because the greens are so much better.

[nochct1]

Also, those who think tour players "smash" short putts into the back of the hole have no idea what they are talking about. For the most part, they are hitting short putts with ideal speed (which is different depending on many factors green speed, up/down hill, smoothness). It should be common knowledge by now that any putt hit harder than cup speed effectively shrinks the cup size. I dont think tour players are attaining a 95% make rate from 3 feet by hitting these short putts "hard" or "right into the back of the cup." Doing so would shrink the cup to a size that would make a 95% make rate impossible, as well as introducing the risk of 3-putting from an incredibly short distance.

 

I guess that depends on the definition of "smash", but its pretty safe to say that pros regularly hit 3-5ft putts with enough force to go 10+ feet fairly often. It doesn't shrink the size of the hole, it removes the variable introduced by any break.

 

Now I'm confused. I thought there was no break from 3 feet.

[ex0dus]

 

Now I'm confused. I thought there was no break from 3 feet.

 

This is from the first page of the thread.

 

 

Ritchie Hunt (tour stats guy) made a few good posts on this topic awhile back. Basically said the same things they said on the Open telecast - which is they stay below 3% slope.

[Thrillhouse]

 

Where are you playing that this actually happens on a regular basis? Because I've played a ton of golf in my life on a ton of different courses and outside of ironman tournaments where they do that on purpose I've literally never seen it. It's just nonsense.

 

You are lucky then. I have seen it a bunch of times. I have also had plenty of downhill putts where the only way to stop it near the hole is to hit the hole. I can just touch the ball with my finger to get it rolling and watch it go 5+ feet past the hole. When you have non-golfers setting the pins you are going to get some bad ones. It was even worse a few years ago. There are some pin positions that they just don't use any more due to all the complaints.

 

My cousin just joined a club (Washington Golf in Arlington, VA) that has a handful of greens that are even worse. I went out there one day in the spring when the greens were slow and on a couple of holes i sat there and hit a bunch of downhill putts just to see if I could get one to stop anywhere near the hole.It was a struggle. If the greens were their normal speeds i wouldn't have been able to keep them on the green. Not coincidentally they about to renovate the course.

 

It is nonsense, and it is the type of nonsense many of us have to deal with on a regular basis. Add in the fact that the greens are bumpier than tour greens and it makes short putts a headache. Hence the thread topic.

 

I think it was Zach Johnson who said his putting immediately got better as soon as he made it to the tour because the greens are so much better.

 

5 feet past the hole? And you think that's crazy? Lol I think I'm starting to see the issue here. Yeah, tour players are just better than you think, am setups aren't as hard as people think, and golf is hard sometimes. I think that's all there is to it.

 

Issue of perspective, watching the PGA tour on tv makes golf look easy, I think we can chalk it up to that.

[mjen43]

 

Now I'm confused. I thought there was no break from 3 feet.

 

This is from the first page of the thread.

 

 

Ritchie Hunt (tour stats guy) made a few good posts on this topic awhile back. Basically said the same things they said on the Open telecast - which is they stay below 3% slope.

 

A 5' putt on a 9.5 stimp green on a 2% slope can break 6 inches. A 3 footer in the same situation can break 3.6", which is 1.5" outside of the edge of the cup (assuming reasonable speed, of course). Considering tour greens are typically faster than 9.5 on the stimp, that certainly does not seem flat to me.

 

http://puttingzone.com/Downloads/SlopeBreak.pdf

Page 10-11.

[McCann1]

 

Now I'm confused. I thought there was no break from 3 feet.

 

This is from the first page of the thread.

 

 

Ritchie Hunt (tour stats guy) made a few good posts on this topic awhile back. Basically said the same things they said on the Open telecast - which is they stay below 3% slope.

 

A 5' putt on a 9.5 stimp green on a 2% slope breaks 6 inches. A 3 footer in the same situation breaks 3.6", which is 1.5" outside of the edge of the cup (assuming reasonable speed, of course). Considering tour greens are typically faster than 9.5 on the stimp, that certainly does not seem flat to me.

 

http://puttingzone.com/Downloads/SlopeBreak.pdf

Page 10-11.

Can't argue against numbers. This should answer it. Tough but fair pins are all over the tour.

[ex0dus]

 

Where are you playing that this actually happens on a regular basis? Because I've played a ton of golf in my life on a ton of different courses and outside of ironman tournaments where they do that on purpose I've literally never seen it. It's just nonsense.

 

You are lucky then. I have seen it a bunch of times. I have also had plenty of downhill putts where the only way to stop it near the hole is to hit the hole. I can just touch the ball with my finger to get it rolling and watch it go 5+ feet past the hole. When you have non-golfers setting the pins you are going to get some bad ones. It was even worse a few years ago. There are some pin positions that they just don't use any more due to all the complaints.

 

My cousin just joined a club (Washington Golf in Arlington, VA) that has a handful of greens that are even worse. I went out there one day in the spring when the greens were slow and on a couple of holes i sat there and hit a bunch of downhill putts just to see if I could get one to stop anywhere near the hole.It was a struggle. If the greens were their normal speeds i wouldn't have been able to keep them on the green. Not coincidentally they about to renovate the course.

 

It is nonsense, and it is the type of nonsense many of us have to deal with on a regular basis. Add in the fact that the greens are bumpier than tour greens and it makes short putts a headache. Hence the thread topic.

 

I think it was Zach Johnson who said his putting immediately got better as soon as he made it to the tour because the greens are so much better.

 

5 feet past the hole? And you think that's crazy? Lol I think I'm starting to see the issue here. Yeah, tour players are just better than you think, am setups aren't as hard as people think, and golf is hard sometimes. I think that's all there is to it.

 

Issue of perspective, watching the PGA tour on tv makes golf look easy, I think we can chalk it up to that.

 

If you touch a ball with your finger and it rolls over 5 feet past the hole that is an unfair pin, simple as that.

 

I followed Howell and Stanley all day today. I didn't see one pin where that would happen, and those greens were fast. I saw a bunch of downhill putts from both guys. None of the pins looked even remotely unfair. They had no problem stopping downhill putts next to the hole, even leaving a few of them short.

 

I have been going to PGA tour events for over 30 years. I am well aware of how good they are. I am also aware that they don't face the type of pin positions that i see on a typical weekend.

[ex0dus]

 

Now I'm confused. I thought there was no break from 3 feet.

 

This is from the first page of the thread.

 

 

Ritchie Hunt (tour stats guy) made a few good posts on this topic awhile back. Basically said the same things they said on the Open telecast - which is they stay below 3% slope.

 

A 5' putt on a 9.5 stimp green on a 2% slope breaks 6 inches. A 3 footer in the same situation breaks 3.6", which is 1.5" outside of the edge of the cup (assuming reasonable speed, of course). Considering tour greens are typically faster than 9.5 on the stimp, that certainly does not seem flat to me.

 

http://puttingzone.com/Downloads/SlopeBreak.pdf

Page 10-11.

Can't argue against numbers. This should answer it. Tough but fair pins are all over the tour.

 

 

I agree, tough but fair. You aren't going to see many unfair pin positions on tour because their pins are set by professionals that have rules they have to follow.

[McCann1]

doesn't mean they aren't really hard. Pros just get the ball in the hole better than the people watching them. A 3 foot putt can have almost a foot of break and still be within the USGA parameters of a recommended pin. That's nasty

[Valtiel]

I agree with both of you to a point. Yes hitting them firmer is usually the way to go, but not so firm we make the hole smaller. After getting in ample practice to learn the speed I think we adjust to the firmest speed we can manage to take out the most break possible without risking a hard lip out. But we're human, sometimes we hit it a tad soft and sometimes just kill the thing.

 

Agreed, well put(t).

[mark m]

I also have no problem with tough but fair hole locations. In fact, I prefer it. The OP asked why no "really nasty short putts on tour"? As you say, it is because they have real pros setting up the golf course. Again, some of us have had numerous experiences with holes placed in bad nasty spots where the ball could end up 20' away or off the green. This issue is one of the reasons I got involved in my club's leadership. We had pissed off members and the grounds crew guys weren't happy either as it was the pro-shop staff choosing bad locations for our club's tournaments. We got it fixed for the most part. We still see it once in awhile on everyday play, but not in our tournaments (lately). Ever vigilant!

 

There have been quite a few recent threads on hole locations. It is a somewhat common problem for some of us:

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...-pin-positions/

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...elinespractice/

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...ur-home-course/

 

I think this pdf does a great job explaining this issue:

 

http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...2008/080721.pdf

 

A couple of quotes:

 

In reality, there are several factors to consider when determining a hole location, but if it is cut on the putting surface, it is legal.18

A hole should be placed in such a position that no matter where the golfer is putting from, assuming continuous putting surface between himself and the hole, it should be possible to stop the ball within approximately two feet of the hole.19

A green so fast (or a hole cut in such a position) that a ball cannot be stopped near the hole from any point on the green, for example, is an unfair challenge.20

No one likes to see a missed putt roll back or a well-struck putt roll completely off a green when the ball has missed the hole. (That is why they stay under 3% - so the ball will stop on fast greens. Read the pdf. It's not to make them straight easy putts.)

 

In Minnesota, our Golf Association's Tournament Director does a nice job setting up the golf courses for our State Championships. He makes them tough but fair. He uses the back tees and has a reputation for tough hole locations. When he started, some of the guys were squawking that his set-ups were too tough. But I wasn't one of the them. Good scoring proved they were fair.

 

A couple of examples:

 

For the 2007 State Am at Hazeltine National, he used the same hole locations as the 2002 PGA. "Today is the Saturday hole locations from the 2002 PGA" and so on for the other days. (Wouldn't that be great to play Augusta with the typical Sunday hole locations?) I thought that was smart play on his part. I liked it and it also saved him the trouble of measuring and laying out holes for 3 days of play. For the state four-ball, he makes them especially tough. I am somewhat of a pack rat and have just looked at the hole locations sheets from two of them. On one, he had 14 holes where the hole was 4 or 5 yards from the edge. On the other, it is 13 holes 4 or 5 from the edge. But it is really even more as some of the front pins which are shown as on 7 or 8, are really only on 3 or 4 because they are false fronts. That is my experience. YMMV.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[finleysg]

I also have no problem with tough but fair hole locations. In fact, I prefer it. The OP asked why no "really nasty short putts on tour"? As you say, it is because they have real pros setting up the golf course. Again, some of us have had numerous experiences with holes placed in bad nasty spots where the ball could end up 20' away or off the green. This issue is one of the reasons I got involved in my club's leadership. We had pissed off members and the grounds crew guys weren't happy either as it was the pro-shop staff choosing bad locations for our club's tournaments. We got it fixed for the most part. We still see it once in awhile on everyday play, but not in our tournaments (lately). Ever vigilant!

 

There have been quite a few recent threads on hole locations. It is a somewhat common problem for some of us:

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...-pin-positions/

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...elinespractice/

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...ur-home-course/

 

I think this pdf does a great job explaining this issue:

 

http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...2008/080721.pdf

 

A couple of quotes:

 

In reality, there are several factors to consider when determining a hole location, but if it is cut on the putting surface, it is legal.18

A hole should be placed in such a position that no matter where the golfer is putting from, assuming continuous putting surface between himself and the hole, it should be possible to stop the ball within approximately two feet of the hole.19

A green so fast (or a hole cut in such a position) that a ball cannot be stopped near the hole from any point on the green, for example, is an unfair challenge.20

No one likes to see a missed putt roll back or a well-struck putt roll completely off a green when the ball has missed the hole. (That is why they stay under 3% - so the ball will stop on fast greens. Read the pdf. It's not to make them straight easy putts.)

 

In Minnesota, our Golf Association's Tournament Director does a nice job setting up the golf courses for our State Championships. He makes them tough but fair. He uses the back tees and has a reputation for tough hole locations. When he started, some of the guys were squawking that his set-ups were too tough. But I wasn't one of the them. Good scoring proved they were fair.

 

A couple of examples:

 

For the 2007 State Am at Hazeltine National, he used the same hole locations as the 2002 PGA. "Today is the Saturday hole locations from the 2002 PGA" and so on for the other days. (Wouldn't that be great to play Augusta with the typical Sunday hole locations?) I thought that was smart play on his part. I liked it and it also saved him the trouble of measuring and laying out holes for 3 days of play. For the state four-ball, he makes them especially tough. I am somewhat of a pack rat and have just looked at the hole locations sheets from two of them. On one, he had 14 holes where the hole was 4 or 5 yards from the edge. On the other, it is 13 holes 4 or 5 from the edge. But it is really even more as some of the front pins which are shown as on 7 or 8, are really only on 3 or 4 because they are false fronts. That is my experience. YMMV.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

Yes, he does have a bit of a reputation, but in my experience, pins have never been unfair for MGA events.

 

For the MPGA events, we leave it to the local superintendent to set pin locations, with the request that we have a balance of 6 hard pins, 6 easy pins, and the rest somewhere in between.

[mark m]

That State Am at Hazeltine National had some of the firmest greens I've played on. I've also played Bandon, in Ireland, and St. Andrews on true links. I've also played on basically frozen greens up here in the north country. For the first two rounds, you get one morning tee time and one afternoon tee time. For the afternoon round is was pretty silly. You could often not make a ball mark on the greens. All you made was a little dent about the size and depth of a nickel. Approach shots with various irons of all kinds including wedges would bounce as high as the flagstick and it made getting to some of the pins not a realistic goal. When I look back at it, numerous shots come to mind but one really stands out more than the others. It was #13. The exact distance for that round was marked on the tee box (with paint) at 196. Here are the holes - click on #13:

 

https://mnpga.bluego...ngc/aerial.htm#

 

The hole was front center - on 7 yards from front edge. The green depth is 36 yards. It is pretty narrow in front. I hit a towering high 6i in there with a slight cut, right at it. It landed on the green about 3 yards short of the hole and just exploded. A huge bounce and it rolled up and off a small shoulder on the right side of the green pushing it slightly left and then straight back and up one tier to the back edge. I had a 80-90' downhill putt. (Got my par. Yes sir!) I recall the look on Ernie's face when he hit that shot on that par 3 (#7?) at Shinnecock in the last round (playing with the Goose) where it landed on the front and exploded into the back bunker. In competing you just try to do the best you can under the circumstances. But you can look back and make a judgment about whether it was a good set-up or not. In that vein, I do believe the set-up was a little over the top. Regardless, I did thank them for hosting the championship.

 

After the round I talked to the TD, and he asked how it went and so on. Without me asking or saying anything about the firmness of the greens - he told me straight out that the green firmness was not his doing. It was the folks at Hazeltine. We had very little rain heading into the championship and they basically stopped irrigating 2 weeks prior to the tournament. They would just do a spritz in the morning to keep them alive. The top players basically made no birdies in that second afternoon round. One of our top at that time made 0 birdies and I believe he finished second. (He was D1 and been on various pro tours since. Played in the US Open at Pinehurst and a big hitter.) I believe the guy who won made one bird in that round. I think he finished 3 rounds at -1. (The winning score might be incorrect. Just going off memory here. I did look at the hole by hole scores as I was curious how the others scored in those conditions.) Anyway, I don't believe good shots were rewarded as they should have been. They did not want Ams coming in there and shooting low numbers. Richard has thoroughly covered the mentality at play here when he has talked about Oakmont.

 

I also had a hearty laugh when Justin Rose called the set-up at Hazeltine for the Ryder Cup a "pro-am set-up." Hey, we got a "w" but that comment had to tweak some in the membership.

 

Have a great Independence Day

[golfandfishing]

Mark m - if you had access to the old professional or tour balata ball would you have played that at Hazeltine?

[mark m]

Mark m - if you had access to the old professional or tour balata ball would you have played that at Hazeltine?

 

It's a good question. No I would not have. I did not play them back in my wood wood days either. I am 55 now. I was 45 for that tournament. I have always had a high swing speed and generate lots of spin. I tried those old balatas back in the day but hit them out of round in a hurry. During that state am they measured drives on one hole each of the first two days. On the previous hole, #12, I "won" the long drive in the fairway for the day at 341 yards. It probably rolled 30 or 40 yards. (BTW: no prizes for that "win." LOL) I was playing ProV1x. By the way, both of those holes go in the same direction and there was basically no wind at that time. I really don't know if one of those old balls would have made much of a difference under the circumstances. I think changing to a ball like that could also throw off your carry distances and therefore could be a net negative.

[playa]

Another thing to consider is that just cause 3 footers are flat doesn't mean the pin is easy if you are further out than 3 feet. Most times the tricky part is actually getting it to the 3 foot circle.

[mark m]

Another thing to consider is that just cause 3 footers are flat doesn't mean the pin is easy if you are further out than 3 feet. Most times the tricky part is actually getting it to the 3 foot circle.

 

A good example is Augusta. Even though many of the greens are large, they play small. You need precision. More 3 putts there even though Ritchie says they make more short putts there than typical because the greens are so good and true. One hole that comes to mind is number nine. I assume they test it to make sure you can stop the ball on the front tier from the back of the green with a well hit putt. It would have to be near perfect though. No flinching!