Why no nasty short putts on tour?

[suprfli6]

Let's keep in mind who is setting the pins for the day. At a tour event each hole is placed by someone who is hired by the tour and is paid and trained to do it properly. At your home course it might be some $10 an hour hung over stoner who showed up at 6:00 am and was told to go change the holes for the day. Or it might be done in a well thought out manner by a highly professional greens superintendent.

 

Local munis could be pot luck.

There are a couple pin positions on the two courses I play the most where you can have a 6-8 foot uphill putt roll back to your feet. And if you're anywhere on the other side of the hole, you either make the putt or have a 10+ footer coming back up the hill. I haven't seen many pins like that on tour (nor should I, it's stupid).

[Thrillhouse]

 

 

 

 

I'm going to preface this by saying that if you look at my post I agreed that they don't slap pins on stupid slopes like you sometimes see out of lazy grounds crew workers who set pins poorly.

 

That being said you have both me and Chad McCann who have both played professional golf and D1 college golf, who have played as much if not more golf on the types of setups ams play regularly and who have real experience with the course setups in professional golf, and we're both saying the pins in professional golf are waaaay harder than what ams see during their Saturday morning rounds.

 

We aren't pulling this out of thin air, we're speaking from real life experience, this isn't what we assume to be true, this is us telling you guys how it actually works. Do they look for flattish spots? For sure, because it's supposed to be tough but fair, but they go tucking pins like crazy because it's often the only way to protect scoring.

 

If they played tour events with the pins set up the way they do the other 51 weeks out of the year you'd start to see winning scores of -40 some weeks. Tour pins are harder.

 

I can't speak for others but in my case that is flat out wrong. The pins that i see routinely are far harder then you would see at a tour event.

 

I have had hit uphill putts that missed the hole and rolled backwards plenty of times, sometimes several feet. Downhill putts that wouldn't stay on the green unless they hit the hole no matter how easy they are hit.

 

Sure the greens are faster at a tour event, but the slopes around the pins aren't even close to what i normally see. I have attended dozens of PGA tour events over the years and i can see very clearly where the pins are.

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

 

[disco111]

I remember some years back, I think it was at Riviera, USGA was in charge and there was one hole that caused a mini uproar. I think it was Payne Steward who's first putt stopped short of the hole (not by much) and then proceeded to roll back and past him. (Perhaps one of our WRX historians can validate this) Tried looking this up, but don't really know how to title it to find it. Anyway, I think the USGA made a definitive directive on how and where to position the hole after this..........

[sekrah]

The tour could use a few "improperly placed pins". These guys have gotten so good the game has become stale to watch on television.

 

But I guess if everyone is okay with TV ratings swirling down the toilet, it's fine. Please whatever you do, don't do anything to try to make the game more interesting to watch. That would be blasphemy.

[Thrillhouse]

I remember some years back, I think it was at Riviera, USGA was in charge and there was one hole that caused a mini uproar. I think it was Payne Steward who's first putt stopped short of the hole (not by much) and then proceeded to roll back and past him. (Perhaps one of our WRX historians can validate this) Tried looking this up, but don't really know how to title it to find it. Anyway, I think the USGA made a definitive directive on how and where to position the hole after this..........

 

Olympic club, 1998 US Open.

[sekrah]

"Mini uproar" = It got people talking about golf.

 

 

Eliminate all mini uproars.

[McCann1]

Also for those that haven't been in Monday qualifiers, those pins are purposely set up easy. I'm sure pace of play is partly why, but regardless monday pins are in no way similar to actual event pins.

[dwboston]

I remember some years back, I think it was at Riviera, USGA was in charge and there was one hole that caused a mini uproar. I think it was Payne Steward who's first putt stopped short of the hole (not by much) and then proceeded to roll back and past him. (Perhaps one of our WRX historians can validate this) Tried looking this up, but don't really know how to title it to find it. Anyway, I think the USGA made a definitive directive on how and where to position the hole after this..........

 

Olympic Club. 1998 - Lee Janzen's 2nd US Open win.

[ex0dus]

 

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

If the pins are "improperly placed" on severe slopes or knobs they aren't harder than pins that are properly placed?

 

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that lol.

[stu_man]

The pins are ridiculous. They rarely have perfectly flat putts around the holes

This isnt true, the tour wont put cup on a slope of more than 2.5%

 

They might not be ridiculous as far as putting them on extreme slopes goes (which is silly anyway IMO), but they are ridiculous as far as tucking them and cutting them near the edges goes. Tour pins are waaaay harder than anything an amateur sees, ever.

 

Thrill,

 

You are one of the best here at the wrx, but I'm sorry to say you are way off on this one.

 

The tour basically uses USGA recommendations for hole placements: flat spots, enough room to stiff a required shot from good position, and at least 4 yards from the edges. (The only one I can think of where it isn't 4 yards is the back location on the very short par 4 #10 at Riviera. The back of that green is about 7 yards wide – split that and it's 3.5 yards or 10 feet from the edge.)

 

Sorry to say some of us have to put up with a-holes/idiots placing holes where they should not. I have played in tournaments with very firm and fast greens. Multiple holes tucked to 5 to 6 FEET (on greens roughly 30 x 30 yards) from the edge. Also placed on knobs or edges of slopes where a slight miss will leave you with 15-20'. (We have had these situations in our Club Championship more than once.) Even played a pro-am where the green had had major back to front slope and if you got above the hole you could not stop it and it would roll off the green if not holed. That hole was backed up and you could watch the clown show. Good for you guys if you haven't had to put up with stuff.

 

Ritchie Hunt (tour stats guy) made a few good posts on this topic awhile back. Basically said the same things they said on the Open telecast - which is they stay below 3% slope. He also mentioned that the players make more short putts at Augusta because the greens are fast and so smooth. (I believe he said less than 8'.) He also mentioned that they also 3 putt more there as they have a hard time from long distance getting it close enough to make the next one. Look, "these guys are good" but let's not get carried away. They basically have the same conditions each week and have excellent green maps as well.

 

Best,

MM

 

I'm going to preface this by saying that if you look at my post I agreed that they don't slap pins on stupid slopes like you sometimes see out of lazy grounds crew workers who set pins poorly.

 

That being said you have both me and Chad McCann who have both played professional golf and D1 college golf, who have played as much if not more golf on the types of setups ams play regularly and who have real experience with the course setups in professional golf, and we're both saying the pins in professional golf are waaaay harder than what ams see during their Saturday morning rounds.

 

We aren't pulling this out of thin air, we're speaking from real life experience, this isn't what we assume to be true, this is us telling you guys how it actually works. Do they look for flattish spots? For sure, because it's supposed to be tough but fair, but they go tucking pins like crazy because it's often the only way to protect scoring.

 

If they played tour events with the pins set up the way they do the other 51 weeks out of the year you'd start to see winning scores of -40 some weeks. Tour pins are harder.

 

I think the bolded was the entire point of this thread. And you just answered it. As you know playing high level tournament golf, one of the most important aspects to playing well is getting the ball into that 3 foot circle when you're out of position. There is a reason every player out there emphasizes this. If you get it around there, it's almost automatic because you're going to have very little slope no matter what side of the hole you're on. You also pointed out that at that level when you're playing a practice round that you can go look for flat spots in the most ridiculous positions on the greens and you can bet there will be a pin there.. so that's what you practice to. You don't go pitching to spots on slopes like you see at some courses.

[finleysg]

https://www.si.com/v...hat-much-harder

 

An article from SI about that pin on 18 at Olympic Club.

[sekrah]

https://www.si.com/v...hat-much-harder

 

An article from SI about that pin on 18 at Olympic Club.

 

Yep.. Tsk tsk.. Press coverage about golf. Can't have anything of that. Get these boring pin locations in there that won't draw any attention to ourselves.. We might accidently lure someone that isn't a curmudgeon into watching the game.

[hybrid25]

I believe that the pros are so talented and skilled that they make it look easy. In my opinion, there's nothing more impressive than a golfer who can lag putt with consistency, and that's exactly what the pros can do. They make it look easy because they are that good.

[golfandfishing]

Most club level golfers under estimate their lack of ability and over estimate the difficulty of their course. What they consider firm, fast and tucked is actually soft, accessible and green light for tour players. What a tour player considers tucked has club members calling for board meetings and firings of the GM, HP and super.

 

PS - when your super tells you the greens are rolling at 11 and he topped off the rough at 3 inches they are actually 9.5 and 1.75".

[Shilgy]

The tour could use a few "improperly placed pins". These guys have gotten so good the game has become stale to watch on television.

 

But I guess if everyone is okay with TV ratings swirling down the toilet, it's fine. Please whatever you do, don't do anything to try to make the game more interesting to watch. That would be blasphemy.

So your fix is to add windmills to the greens? Difficult is fine, tricked up insanity is not. May I assume you feel folks only watch auto racing for the wrecks?

[Thrillhouse]

 

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

If the pins are "improperly placed" on severe slopes or knobs they aren't harder than pins that are properly placed?

 

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that lol.

 

Not necessarily. If the pin is smack dab in the middle of the green and on a slope and the greens are rolling at 8 it's not that difficult. If a pin is located on a flat spot tucked 4 paces behind a bunker and 4 paces from the edge and the greens are rock hard and 12 then it's more difficult. Difficulty takes into account all the factors that play into a situation, not just one (slope).

 

It's not really that complicated, then again this is deteriorating into one of those stupid disputes between people with a lot of knowledge and experience trying to explain something and people with little knowledge or experience going "yeah but I assume it works differently!"

[golfandfishing]

"then again this is deteriorating into one of those stupid disputes between people with a lot of knowledge and experience trying to explain something and people with little knowledge or experience going "yeah but I assume it works differently!"

 

I'm stealing this. Thank you.

[JeffreySpicoli]

 

I'm going to preface this by saying that if you look at my post I agreed that they don't slap pins on stupid slopes like you sometimes see out of lazy grounds crew workers who set pins poorly.

 

That being said you have both me and Chad McCann who have both played professional golf and D1 college golf, who have played as much if not more golf on the types of setups ams play regularly and who have real experience with the course setups in professional golf, and we're both saying the pins in professional golf are waaaay harder than what ams see during their Saturday morning rounds.

 

We aren't pulling this out of thin air, we're speaking from real life experience, this isn't what we assume to be true, this is us telling you guys how it actually works. Do they look for flattish spots? For sure, because it's supposed to be tough but fair, but they go tucking pins like crazy because it's often the only way to protect scoring.

 

If they played tour events with the pins set up the way they do the other 51 weeks out of the year you'd start to see winning scores of -40 some weeks. Tour pins are harder.

 

I think the bolded was the entire point of this thread. And you just answered it. As you know playing high level tournament golf, one of the most important aspects to playing well is getting the ball into that 3 foot circle when you're out of position. There is a reason every player out there emphasizes this. If you get it around there, it's almost automatic because you're going to have very little slope no matter what side of the hole you're on. You also pointed out that at that level when you're playing a practice round that you can go look for flat spots in the most ridiculous positions on the greens and you can bet there will be a pin there.. so that's what you practice to. You don't go pitching to spots on slopes like you see at some courses.

 

This was the last word in the thread.

 

Everything after it is and will be noise.

[Valtiel]

The pins are ridiculous. They rarely have perfectly flat putts around the holes

 

This is incorrect. Most 3 foot putts on tour are fairly straight. Get to about 5 foot and they can get some slope. You have to understand when you're putting on greens that are running 12 to 13, you can't place pins on slopes.. it would be a blood bath.

 

True, I never understood this until I played a charity tournament that was DESIGNED to be a blood bath like this. I believe the greens were rolling 13-14 they said and they intentionally put holes on slopes as often as possible. It was insane in a hilarious way. The strategy was to always try to smash the ball beyond the hole so it had a chance to go in on the way back.

 

You have to treat this stuff differently when the greens are as pristine as what your pros play on.

[sekrah]

The tour could use a few "improperly placed pins". These guys have gotten so good the game has become stale to watch on television.

 

But I guess if everyone is okay with TV ratings swirling down the toilet, it's fine. Please whatever you do, don't do anything to try to make the game more interesting to watch. That would be blasphemy.

So your fix is to add windmills to the greens? Difficult is fine, tricked up insanity is not. May I assume you feel folks only watch auto racing for the wrecks?

 

No, but putting a pin near some slope is hardly the end of the world.. Add a little risk to a missed putt so these guys can't just freely smash straight 5 footers into the back of the hole. Make golf interesting to watch.

[McCann1]

 

 

Those pins aren't harder, those pins are improperly placed, two different things.

 

If the pins are "improperly placed" on severe slopes or knobs they aren't harder than pins that are properly placed?

 

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that lol.

 

Not necessarily. If the pin is smack dab in the middle of the green and on a slope and the greens are rolling at 8 it's not that difficult. If a pin is located on a flat spot tucked 4 paces behind a bunker and 4 paces from the edge and the greens are rock hard and 12 then it's more difficult. Difficulty takes into account all the factors that play into a situation, not just one (slope).

 

It's not really that complicated, then again this is deteriorating into one of those stupid disputes between people with a lot of knowledge and experience trying to explain something and people with little knowledge or experience going "yeah but I assume it works differently!"

I would love to give some input about professional/high level am golf but apparently the greens I have played on were in fact not difficult and all the tough pins I played on were not as difficult as what some have seen at their course. Your last sentence is spot on

[McCann1]

The tour could use a few "improperly placed pins". These guys have gotten so good the game has become stale to watch on television.

 

But I guess if everyone is okay with TV ratings swirling down the toilet, it's fine. Please whatever you do, don't do anything to try to make the game more interesting to watch. That would be blasphemy.

So your fix is to add windmills to the greens? Difficult is fine, tricked up insanity is not. May I assume you feel folks only watch auto racing for the wrecks?

 

No, but putting a pin near some slope is hardly the end of the world.. Add a little risk to a missed putt so these guys can't just freely smash straight 5 footers into the back of the hole. Make golf interesting to watch.

I don't think you understand this fully...there are pins like that on tour but the reason it looks easy is because that's what the pros do. They hit the short putts with pace. What is routine to them is difficult to guys at home because the guys at home baby it so the next one is good. Pros don't think about missing it.

[Valtiel]

The tour could use a few "improperly placed pins". These guys have gotten so good the game has become stale to watch on television.

 

But I guess if everyone is okay with TV ratings swirling down the toilet, it's fine. Please whatever you do, don't do anything to try to make the game more interesting to watch. That would be blasphemy.

So your fix is to add windmills to the greens? Difficult is fine, tricked up insanity is not. May I assume you feel folks only watch auto racing for the wrecks?

 

No, but putting a pin near some slope is hardly the end of the world.. Add a little risk to a missed putt so these guys can't just freely smash straight 5 footers into the back of the hole. Make golf interesting to watch.

 

Oh leave it alone. Every one of these discussions has some troll with an agenda that's going to keep banging on about it like you have. The number one complaint about golf coverage when THAT thread makes its rounds is too much putting (aside from commercials and Gary McCord). Nothing related to putting is going to "make golf more interesting to watch" because if the forum nerds don't like it then the general public is even less likely too.

[playa]

Pins should never be cut on slopes in tournaments. They can be near the edge or bottom of a slope, but I agree with other posters that unless the entire green slopes the hole should be cut on a flattish portion at least three feet around the hole.

 

This probably explains Phil's putting video where he says most of his practice is three foot putts, and why he bases his entire short game on getting his ball inside the three feet circle.

 

After watching Phils videos I now won't leave the putting green for a competition round until I sink 10 three footers in a row. As someone who is time poor I endorse spending practice time on three foot putts above all else. The extra confidence it brings automatically improves your conversion on six and ten footers too.

[Ristlager]

Here is a fact: Jordan Spieths scoring average in college in 2012 was 70.92, he also played 5 event on the PGA tour that season and had a scoring average of 70.639. If the PGA tour is so much harder than what the rest of the course we play, shouldn't there be a difference the other way? Almost every good player who comes on tour from college takes the "challenge" with ease (Rahm being the latest player to do so). I know they are world class and plays a whole other game than us, but I do think playing on the PGA tour gives you an easier game than many here thinks. The setup with no lost balls, hard and fast fairways for extra roll and perfect fast greens makes up for many of the harder problems they face.

[mjen43]

Here is a fact: Jordan Spieths scoring average in college in 2012 was 70.92, he also played 5 event on the PGA tour that season and had a scoring average of 70.639. If the PGA tour is so much harder than what the rest of the course we play, shouldn't there be a difference the other way? Almost every good player who comes on tour from college takes the "challenge" with ease (Rahm being the latest player to do so). I know they are world class and plays a whole other game than us, but I do think playing on the PGA tour gives you an easier game than many here thinks. The setup with no lost balls, hard and fast fairways for extra roll and perfect fast greens makes up for many of the harder problems they face.

 

Because top tier college events aren't held on courses "we" play too often either. They are set up very difficult as well.

[McCann1]

Here is a fact: Jordan Spieths scoring average in college in 2012 was 70.92, he also played 5 event on the PGA tour that season and had a scoring average of 70.639. If the PGA tour is so much harder than what the rest of the course we play, shouldn't there be a difference the other way? Almost every good player who comes on tour from college takes the "challenge" with ease (Rahm being the latest player to do so). I know they are world class and plays a whole other game than us, but I do think playing on the PGA tour gives you an easier game than many here thinks. The setup with no lost balls, hard and fast fairways for extra roll and perfect fast greens makes up for many of the harder problems they face.

Here is also a fact. There are a lot more good college players that don't sniff the tour than those that are successful on it

[Roadking2003]

They had a web.com qualifier at my home course once. I played the day before and the pin positions for the qualifier were marked. I have never seen pin positions that easy before.

 

I asked the pro about it and he said there is a limit to how much slope there can be around the hole for tour events.

 

The USGA guidelines support that.

[Shilgy]

Here is a fact: Jordan Spieths scoring average in college in 2012 was 70.92, he also played 5 event on the PGA tour that season and had a scoring average of 70.639. If the PGA tour is so much harder than what the rest of the course we play, shouldn't there be a difference the other way? Almost every good player who comes on tour from college takes the "challenge" with ease (Rahm being the latest player to do so). I know they are world class and plays a whole other game than us, but I do think playing on the PGA tour gives you an easier game than many here thinks. The setup with no lost balls, hard and fast fairways for extra roll and perfect fast greens makes up for many of the harder problems they face.

Here is also a fact. There are a lot more good college players that don't sniff the tour than those that are successful on it

That and the fact that any player really impacted by the "never a lost ball because the fans will find it" idea is not scoring well enough to stay on tour anyway.

[Roadking2003]

Pins should never be cut on slopes in tournaments. They can be near the edge or bottom of a slope, but I agree with other posters that unless the entire green slopes the hole should be cut on a flattish portion at least three feet around the hole.

 

 

correct.

• An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
  

 

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16