Lie Angle - Huge Factor?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Maybe I should have added the caveat that anyone that knows about lie and how it affects ball flight might have a light bulb go off when they are suddenly hitting everything poorly. I would think a tour player would periodically have things like that checked.

[Smash Factors]

I can't believe how often this topic comes up on this site and how often people are dead wrong about it.

 

Incorrect ball flight due to lie angle HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TURF INTERACTION. Your toe is not "digging in" and causing the club to open BEFORE impact if your club is too flat. The ball is long gone before you start to make a divot. Repeat that. A divot starts AFTER the ball has left the face. The ball was BEHIND the divot before it went skyward unless you hit it incredibly fat.

 

Lie angle launches the ball left or right of intended target because of the "direction" the loft of the club is pointing at impact. If you make a good swing, on a good path toward your target the bottom grove ideally should be perpendicular to your target line at impact. If it isn't, your launch will be effected adversely. It has NOTHING to do with turf interaction.

 

You simply don't understand what's happening.

 

Typing it in bold doesn't make a diference.

 

IT has EVERYTHING to do with turf interaction. Nobody said it's making the club open before impact. Reread. This gets old. Think about what you're posting before you post it.

 

If you're starting a divot under the ball, you're going to be on adownward angle of a few degrees, especially with a long iron. That is shallow enough, especially form the inside, for a drooping toe to catch the ground slightly early. A good player starts a divot almost immediately under the ball, and it reaches a total low point about 4 inches after the ball. If I'm coming into the ball shallow, and my toe is drooping excessively, then I'm going to start to catch the toe on the ground a little early. This is why you can actually hit fat shots because your lie angle is too flat for your given shaft angle and handle position.

 

If I don't, the only way to NOT have the toe lower than the heel and catch it fat because of it, would be to come in with the heel higher, and therefore I'd start hitting the ball thin, and with a drooping and therefore dynamically open face. Look at your own pictures. How do you suppose you can hit the ball in the middle of the face when the bottom line of the iron is tilted at an angle that would be catching the ball closer to the equator?

How do you propose you hit a ball in the sweetspot if the iron isn't even level?

 

Think about the geometry and physics for 2 seconds next time.

 

Sure the face points to a different spot because of the loft and it's correlation to the lie, but the way the club goes through the ground is also telling for how you're reaching impact. You have to know what to look for and how to use both inputs to make a determination.

 

How do you not see that?

 

How do you suppose the CG will line up if the bottom of the club isn't even parallel to the surface you're striking it off of? It's like hitting off a sidehill lie the whole time. If people used 2 seconds of common sense they'd easily understand how both of those things are factors.

 

Don't believe me? Get a club that is excessively upright or flat and try to hit it solid. Most people without changing a swing, will tell you the impact feels bad. WHy? Because even if they hit the lateral middle of the clubface, they can't actually get the contact point onto the actual sweetspot of the club regularly because the iron is excessively tilted at impact. You're basically blading it. Look at the pics. If the divot is that unbalanced, why would would the impact also not be similar? The divot shows the exact condition that the club was in immediately after it strikes the ball. How would you expect to have flawless impact and take a misshapen divot? In a proper swing, that won't happen.

 

http://www.golfwrx.c.../07/loftLie.png

 

Look at how low or high the heel or the toe is in relation to the CG when any one part of the sole hits the ground? This is why lie angle matters for more than just hitting pushes or pulls.

 

It impacts the overrall quality of the strike, the divot, the direction and the feel.

 

I don't really agree with much of what you are saying here. You seem to think that a good player is starting his divot underneath the ball. That's really not the case. On properly struck shots, you may be brushing the grass under the ball, but the leading edge is not digging in unless you're hitting it fat. If you're digging into the dirt and hitting the ball at the same time, it's a fat shot. With properly struck shots, the leading edge doesn't dig until after the ball is off the face.

 

And just because the toe is down a little bit doesn't mean it's going to dig early. Unless the toe is down several degrees, you still have to hit it fat in order for the toe to dig during ball compression.

 

Let's say your ball is teed up 2 inches. If the toe of your iron is down a couple degrees or up a couple degrees, the ball with launch off of it's intended path even if hitting the center of the face. That's the reality of bad lie angles. It directly affects accuracy regardless if there's turf interference or not.

 

Hit some balls off a chalk line. Properly struck shots will take a divot and leave the chalk line in tact....toe down or not.

[Ajlepisto]

If you are starting the divot exactly right under the ball - you're hitting it fat.

 

Second, even when it's close to just under the ball (a very little bit past where the ball was sitting) that doesn't mean the club is in contact with the ball and the ground at the same time. Impact with the ball actually deflects the club head down into the turf - but the ball is long gone before that interaction can effect the face for lie angles that are reasonably off the ideal for the player.

 

Finally, if you are going to try and use geometry as an argument, do the actual math before coming to any conclusion. Sure if you want to crank the lie angle so they are off by huge amounts (as they are in some of those 'diagrams') then the ground might come into play. But not when the lie angles are off by normal amounts. Even at 5* too flat or upright, the heel or toe is not even 1/2 mm lower then it would be for a perfect lie angle. And the soul of the club isn't perfectly flat as it is in those diagrams either. There is a reason they are designed to be curved.

 

http://www.tutelman....downdeflect.php

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=OStvJf9qdUA

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=6dG9hb3_blo

 

 

So no, turf interaction will almost never be an issue when the lie angles are off for a well struck shot.

 

There was a study about low points here: http://www.golfwrx.c...er-skill-level/

 

Notice that the higher the handicap, the further forward the low point is. That means the divot starts later. Better players start the divot fairly soon after the ball and have a low point that is closer to the ball. That's how you come in shallow. In many cases the divot begins under the ball, to just barely past it. If you're shallow, or hitting out of longer grass and your toe is lower than the heel, you can feel it catch before the heel. This is what makes impact feel bad. It's not jerking the club open in your hands necessarily, but you can feel the toe catching if the irons are too flat. If you hit the middle of the iron anyway you can't even feel the ball impact and if you're playing a forged head usually the sound is muted enough to where your impact feel is almost entirely relying on the ground interaction. You can watch pros react to this feel constantly when they let go of the club or something but still hit a decent shot.

 

That shows you, especially as a better player, the better the handicap, the more consistent and actually closer to the ball the divot starts.As well as the sooner the player has their average lowpoint.

 

The divot for most good players begins just after the ball is contacted. People think a good divot starts inches after you hit the ball. Maybe on a specialty wedge shot, but in other cases, no. The Tutleman study even pretty much spells this out, and you linked to it! The downward blow of the best players are heavily influenced by the deflection of the clubhead at impact, not an actual vertical drop of the entire clubshaft.

 

Also wedges are the ones typically more curved than irons. Some players even have theirs ground to be flatter. A rounder sole allow for some versatility, but it doesn't really matter.

 

If too flat of a lie doesn't cause improper turf interaction then I don't know what game you're playing. Maybe you just aren't sensitive enough, or a good enough iron striker to sense it? Lots of pros talk about this. Obviously they feel it too. Hit ANY iron too flat or too upright for you and you will immediately feel a difference in the quality of the strike and the quality of the turf interaction.

 

Especially with long irons, where the AoA is very shallow.

 

Nobody is insisting the ground is opening the clubface. This is what people just don't seem to udnerstand. What IS happening is the face is pointed in the wrong direction because of the loft, and the strike suffers, as well as the resulting feel through the turf. For many, the strike quality isn't even felt because they aren't that sensitive. So you have to rely on the ground interaction for someone to tell you it felt like they were too toe down. Some people still can't tell. That's why people use lie boards to measure.

 

If you play with a bladed iron that offers no forgiveness though, you can instantly feel a groove or so thin, and the toe digging.

 

Also look at the gif in your linked article: http://www.tutelman....<!--NoParse1-->

 

If you mark where the bottom of the ball is, notice that the club deflects downward from the impact of the ball at nearly the same point. When I said "under the ball" I didn't mean the literal MM of surface area that is resting on the ground. But it's still under the ball in terms of where the leading edge of the ball is. In other words, you don't see where the divot starts until the ball leaves because the divot is beginning in the ground under where the ball was resting. Just your curser on the bottom of the ball. The club deflects down and hits the dirt very close to that exact spot. Also you can see even visually that the toe is deflecting down more than the heel at that point. Look at the change of orientation of the grooves.

 

Also read the paragraph below that.

 

It clearly says that the downward deflection of the club after impact changes nearly 12*. That is immediately after the ball leaves the face. While the ball is on the face it says it changes something like 6 degrees:

 

Clubhead approaching ball: -0.4º

Average angle during impact:-6.3º

Average angle from first contact to maximum compression: -4.3º

Average angle from maximum compression to separation: -8.4º

Immediately after separation: -12.5º

 

That is substantial. It goes from -.4 down to -12 down. With the toe doing most of the traveling. So of course too flat of a lie angle is going to feel bad through the turf. And if you're a good player, you're going to want to rectify that by trying to get the toe to come through higher. Which can be almost impossible to do unless you make a swing change to somehow keep the heel of the club lower and shift something.

 

Also in that article:

The clubhead is definitely deflected downward at impact. The divot taken by an iron is at least as much due to the downward deflection as it is to the angle of attack before the clubface contacts the ball. In fact, PGA Tour players have rather shallow angles of attack, but their clubheads are traveling much more downward after the ball is gone.

 

The only way to do this would be the start a divot as soon as the shaft deflects. This matches up with that Trackman study of the low point of the best player being the closest to the ball. He's striking it the most solidly and the club then deflects down to start the divot sooner.

 

The thing that gets me is that you can easily test this yourself by taking a club that is a few degrees too flat and trying to hit it. Especially off of a mat where the surface is hard and the noise will be prominent.

[Ajlepisto]

I can't believe how often this topic comes up on this site and how often people are dead wrong about it.

 

Incorrect ball flight due to lie angle HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TURF INTERACTION. Your toe is not "digging in" and causing the club to open BEFORE impact if your club is too flat. The ball is long gone before you start to make a divot. Repeat that. A divot starts AFTER the ball has left the face. The ball was BEHIND the divot before it went skyward unless you hit it incredibly fat.

 

Lie angle launches the ball left or right of intended target because of the "direction" the loft of the club is pointing at impact. If you make a good swing, on a good path toward your target the bottom grove ideally should be perpendicular to your target line at impact. If it isn't, your launch will be effected adversely. It has NOTHING to do with turf interaction.

 

You simply don't understand what's happening.

 

Typing it in bold doesn't make a diference.

 

IT has EVERYTHING to do with turf interaction. Nobody said it's making the club open before impact. Reread. This gets old. Think about what you're posting before you post it.

 

If you're starting a divot under the ball, you're going to be on adownward angle of a few degrees, especially with a long iron. That is shallow enough, especially form the inside, for a drooping toe to catch the ground slightly early. A good player starts a divot almost immediately under the ball, and it reaches a total low point about 4 inches after the ball. If I'm coming into the ball shallow, and my toe is drooping excessively, then I'm going to start to catch the toe on the ground a little early. This is why you can actually hit fat shots because your lie angle is too flat for your given shaft angle and handle position.

 

If I don't, the only way to NOT have the toe lower than the heel and catch it fat because of it, would be to come in with the heel higher, and therefore I'd start hitting the ball thin, and with a drooping and therefore dynamically open face. Look at your own pictures. How do you suppose you can hit the ball in the middle of the face when the bottom line of the iron is tilted at an angle that would be catching the ball closer to the equator?

How do you propose you hit a ball in the sweetspot if the iron isn't even level?

 

Think about the geometry and physics for 2 seconds next time.

 

Sure the face points to a different spot because of the loft and it's correlation to the lie, but the way the club goes through the ground is also telling for how you're reaching impact. You have to know what to look for and how to use both inputs to make a determination.

 

How do you not see that?

 

How do you suppose the CG will line up if the bottom of the club isn't even parallel to the surface you're striking it off of? It's like hitting off a sidehill lie the whole time. If people used 2 seconds of common sense they'd easily understand how both of those things are factors.

 

Don't believe me? Get a club that is excessively upright or flat and try to hit it solid. Most people without changing a swing, will tell you the impact feels bad. WHy? Because even if they hit the lateral middle of the clubface, they can't actually get the contact point onto the actual sweetspot of the club regularly because the iron is excessively tilted at impact. You're basically blading it. Look at the pics. If the divot is that unbalanced, why would would the impact also not be similar? The divot shows the exact condition that the club was in immediately after it strikes the ball. How would you expect to have flawless impact and take a misshapen divot? In a proper swing, that won't happen.

 

http://www.golfwrx.c.../07/loftLie.png

 

Look at how low or high the heel or the toe is in relation to the CG when any one part of the sole hits the ground? This is why lie angle matters for more than just hitting pushes or pulls.

 

It impacts the overrall quality of the strike, the divot, the direction and the feel.

 

I don't really agree with much of what you are saying here. You seem to think that a good player is starting his divot underneath the ball. That's really not the case. On properly struck shots, you may be brushing the grass under the ball, but the leading edge is not digging in unless you're hitting it fat. If you're digging into the dirt and hitting the ball at the same time, it's a fat shot. With properly struck shots, the leading edge doesn't dig until after the ball is off the face.

 

And just because the toe is down a little bit doesn't mean it's going to dig early. Unless the toe is down several degrees, you still have to hit it fat in order for the toe to dig during ball compression.

 

Let's say your ball is teed up 2 inches. If the toe of your iron is down a couple degrees or up a couple degrees, the ball with launch off of it's intended path even if hitting the center of the face. That's the reality of bad lie angles. It directly affects accuracy regardless if there's turf interference or not.

 

Hit some balls off a chalk line. Properly struck shots will take a divot and leave the chalk line in tact....toe down or not.

 

Again, you simply aren't paying attention.

 

Nobody is saying lie angle doesn't effect where the loft is going.

 

But you're totally dismissing the turf interaction a poor lie angle also changes. Which changes how we swing the club. I saw literally hundreds of golfers change their swing over lie angle changes in the course of several minutes doing fittings. It completely changes how you strike the ball, and then almost immediately how you will swing in order to improve your strike. Many people will completely change what they're doing because of something as simple as a 2* lie angle change.

 

On a machine, yes, it will only change starting direction, and the face to path relationship. But players control their dynamic lie angle more than people realize. There are lessons on youtube that go over this specifically. Mark Crossfield has talked and given live lessons to players where he teaches them about controlling their dynamic lie angle to hit different shots, or correct a mistake. Understanding how to control and work with a given lie angle can help you hit draws or fades. But when you're not setup to your given baseline with lie, you're severely limited in what you can do and what you can understand.

 

Someone else said it perfectly, Lie is the most overlooked aspect of clubfitting by most golfers and it nearly always produces an almost immediate result.

 

I just don't understand how people are fighting this point when you can go outside in your yard right now and actually feel what I'm saying. The divot starts much closer to the ball on average in the best players. The low poitn is sooner than you think, and the club is much shallower than you think. The divot is a byproduct of impact and not something you're trying to create by hitting down excessively on the ball.

 

This completely matches up with the notion that some of the best ball strikers in the history of the game didn't always take divots, or large ones. In fact many were pickers, and only took marginal turf divots. Like Greg Norman.

 

It literally says and show it in that Tutleman study that was supposedly going to refute it. It shows massive angle changes due to impact and the proof that good players are coming in quite shallow in order to achieve their given negative AoA numbers that Trackman shows as tour averages.

[A.Princey]

I'm sorry, but when the COG of the club enters the turf later than the perimeter of the clubhead(either heel or toe), it's going to feel like garbage, no matter how well struck the shot is. It's almost like a twisting sensation, and that my friends, is definitely not butter....

[Stuart_G]

There was a study about low points here: http://www.golfwrx.c...er-skill-level/

 

 

Interesting but not really relavent to any point I was addressing. The issue I was responding to isn't how close it starts, but whether it starts close enough to influence the interaction between the club face and the ball AND whether that influence is enough to make a difference in the ball flight. Once the start of the divot is past a certain point, the ball doesn't care how close it might be to that point.

 

 

If too flat of a lie doesn't cause improper turf interaction then I don't know what game you're playing. Maybe you just aren't sensitive enough, or a good enough iron striker to sense it? Lots of pros talk about this. Obviously they feel it too. Hit ANY iron too flat or too upright for you and you will immediately feel a difference in the quality of the strike and the quality of the turf interaction.

 

Especially with long irons, where the AoA is very shallow.

 

Nobody is insisting the ground is opening the clubface. This is what people just don't seem to udnerstand. What IS happening is the face is pointed in the wrong direction because of the loft, and the strike suffers, as well as the resulting feel through the turf. For many, the strike quality isn't even felt because they aren't that sensitive. So you have to rely on the ground interaction for someone to tell you it felt like they were too toe down. Some people still can't tell. That's why people use lie boards to measure.

 

Yes some were arguing that it was effecting the direction of the face and that change was effecting the ball flight.

 

And why are you assuming the quality of the strike suffers? If the d-plane is tilted a couple of degrees, the ball flight certainly is effected a bit and therefore the results of the stroke my be off from what was intended but the quality of the strike is generally considered to be more a function of the impact location on the face and the energy that is transferred from the club to the ball (which is a function of club head speed, dynamic loft and AoA, and face to path relationship). So in that context, the strike would only be effected if you have a club with a sweet spot that is sensitive to the impact location moving a millimeter or two. And considering the vast majority of players are not that consistent with their strikes to begin with, the effect from the lie angle being a little off is negligible.

 

As to "proper turf interaction" that's completely subjective and really irrelevant to my point. So if you want to argue that a change in feel from the turf interaction causes you to swing differently to compensate, and that swing change effects the results, go right ahead. I may be doubtful about it and would need to see some actual objective evidence (not just anecdotal) to validate in my mind- but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. I'll even buy the possibility that for some, the look of the club at address due to different lie angles can lead to a person making adjustments to the swing which can effect the results. But in both those cases, any changes come from a different dynamic of the club coming into impact and not from the fact that the face happens to be tilted a degree or two. Nor is there any support that the dynamic really needs to change for any reason, it's only a requirement that the player is imposing on themselves.

 

 

And the proper lie angle for me is 2* up so I hit irons that are too flat all the time - every time I demo/test a new model head or want to try out a new/different shaft or bug a friend to try theirs.

 

 

Also look at the gif in your linked article: http://www.tutelman....<!--NoParse1-->

 

If you mark where the bottom of the ball is, notice that the club deflects downward from the impact of the ball at nearly the same point. When I said "under the ball" I didn't mean the literal MM of surface area that is resting on the ground. But it's still under the ball in terms of where the leading edge of the ball is. In other words, you don't see where the divot starts until the ball leaves because the divot is beginning in the ground under where the ball was resting. Just your curser on the bottom of the ball. The club deflects down and hits the dirt very close to that exact spot. Also you can see even visually that the toe is deflecting down more than the heel at that point. Look at the change of orientation of the grooves.

 

Also read the paragraph below that.

 

It clearly says that the downward deflection of the club after impact changes nearly 12*. That is immediately after the ball leaves the face. While the ball is on the face it says it changes something like 6 degrees:

 

Clubhead approaching ball: -0.4º

Average angle during impact:-6.3º

Average angle from first contact to maximum compression: -4.3º

Average angle from maximum compression to separation: -8.4º

Immediately after separation: -12.5º

 

That is substantial. It goes from -.4 down to -12 down. With the toe doing most of the traveling. So of course too flat of a lie angle is going to feel bad through the turf. And if you're a good player, you're going to want to rectify that by trying to get the toe to come through higher. Which can be almost impossible to do unless you make a swing change to somehow keep the heel of the club lower and shift something.

 

There is nothing there that supports those conclusions. All that is independent of the lie angle. It's going to be the same for a perfectly fit lie angle as it is for one that's a few degrees off.

 

In fact if that aspect of your argument was true, the point about "with the toe doing most of the traveling" (it's not exactly true but that doesn't matter with respect to turf interaction) then even a club with a perfectly fit lie angle would have toe down turf interaction ('poor' by your defn). And it would be impossible to avoid that toe down turf interaction with out having a significantly upright lie angle at impact to compensate - which would then screw up the ball flight from the tilted d-plane.

 

In fact, that effect of the club moving down is one of a few reasons why the lie board is a poor way to check the proper lie angle.

[rangersgoalie]

When I played full time, I checked my lies on avg every two months. I did practice quite a bit, and usually I would have a few clubs off between 1/2 to 1 degree.

I checked them on the same Mitchell machine in one of the trailers on tour.

 

My lw and sw were one degree flat on that machine. 7,8,9 three degrees flat. Rest were two degrees

 

I used lines and hitting off turf to test.

 

Always got significantly flatter results on lie boards

[dlygrisse]

And any good player will definitely notice when their short irons are off by a couple degrees.

 

Patrick Reed couldn't.

 

I can't find the video right now and I don't have time to search, but there was a clip of John Day doing a club fitting and he was having them adjust his lie angles 1/4 of a degree to get them perfect. said it made a difference in ball flight.

 

Most good players can adapt to the clubs they are swinging, and some people are more sensitive to it than others, but it 100% makes a difference.

[Stuart_G]

Most good players can adapt to the clubs they are swinging, and some people are more sensitive to it than others, but it 100% makes a difference.

 

To the ball flight - certainly can make a difference. And the better (more consistent) the player, the more noticeable the difference could be. That a good player can 'groove' a swing and stay consistent particularly during a single session is not in contention. But spread that out over a longer period of time and more and more possibilities for other sources for changes in ball flight can easily creep in.

[Smash Factors]

But you're totally dismissing the turf interaction a poor lie angle also changes. Which changes how we swing the club. I saw literally hundreds of golfers change their swing over lie angle changes in the course of several minutes doing fittings. It completely changes how you strike the ball, and then almost immediately how you will swing in order to improve your strike. Many people will completely change what they're doing because of something as simple as a 2* lie angle change.

 

Yes, and it needs to be dismissed. Again, you seem to think that divots are happening under the ball where it most definitely isn't. Then, you talk about how adjusting the lie angle changes the way you swing. But, we're not really taking about what happens after the clubs are bent, are we? No. We talking about swinging with clubs that need adjustment. Just because your toe is down a couple degrees, doesn't mean that you'll be digging divots under the ball. After doing several hundred fittings you've somehow come to the conclusion that a bad lie angle influences people to dig divots under the ball. It doesn't. Have you even been to a driving range and hit balls off the grass? Have you seen where your divots occur? You think that adjusting the toe down a degree or two is gonna put your leading edge down into the dirt underneath the ball? It won't. Your assumption of this is ridiculous.

 

On a machine, yes, it will only change starting direction, and the face to path relationship. But players control their dynamic lie angle more than people realize. There are lessons on youtube that go over this specifically. Mark Crossfield has talked and given live lessons to players where he teaches them about controlling their dynamic lie angle to hit different shots, or correct a mistake. Understanding how to control and work with a given lie angle can help you hit draws or fades. But when you're not setup to your given baseline with lie, you're severely limited in what you can do and what you can understand.

 

That basically has nothing to do with this conversation. And even if it did, if a person with perfectly adjusted lie angles suddenly addressed the ball toe up or toe down it would not result in divots underneath the ball. Those are very minor adjustments to posture and ball position that won't suddenly move the low point of the arc back 3 or more inches. The low point is almost always out in front of the ball, even with the irons when they are played off the left side of the body.

 

.....The divot starts much closer to the ball on average in the best players. The low point is sooner than you think, and the club is much shallower than you think.

 

This is just wrong. I know where my low point is and where the divot is happening. It's not where you think it is; don't tell me my lie angles are perfect and that if I had them adjusted down a degree or two it would drastically move the low point under the ball.

 

Then, you use the term "Shallow". The more shallow you come in, the less likely you are to dig divots under the ball. A steep angle of attack will get the divot happening closer to where you're talking about. Even still, by coming in steep, the ball will be inches off the face before the divots does anything to the face angle. Turf interaction from poor lie angles is not the big factor influencing ball flights that you think it is. There are times where the face meets the ball at the exact same time that the leading edge digs into the dirt. In those cases yes, it will move the ball around but those are fat shots. If the shot is not fat, the odds of the turf influencing the ball is almost non existent. Nearly always, the ball will have left the face before the turf can have anything to say about it.

[cav5]

Didn't read every post but if you're not changing the essence of your swing then lie angle really only effects the ball flight. If you are adjusting the swing for lie angIe than that is totally different and in my opinion not advised. You will have worse results changing your swing based on the lie angle than just accepting it and it's effect on the ball. Golf isn't about aiming the clubface, its about aiming the ball. You clubs are only crooked if you think they are. You can play just fine with crooked clubs if the holes you play don't dogleg lol.

 

For me I think it becomes the players job to be aware of this and change his or her orientation to the target accordingly. I'm not highly technical in the nuances of trackman and ballflight laws nor do I think they matter much. I really think it depends on the intent of your swing. I prefer the sole on flat on the ground obviously as this provides the the straightest and easiest to aim ball flight.

[bph7]

Didn't read every post but if you're not changing the essence of your swing then lie angle really only effects the ball flight. If you are adjusting the swing for lie angIe than that is totally different and in my opinion not advised. You will have worse results changing your swing based on the lie angle than just accepting it and it's effect on the ball. Golf isn't about aiming the clubface, its about aiming the ball. You clubs are only crooked if you think they are. You can play just fine with crooked clubs if the holes you play don't dogleg lol.

 

For me I think it becomes the players job to be aware of this and change his or her orientation to the target accordingly. I'm not highly technical in the nuances of trackman and ballflight laws nor do I think they matter much. I really think it depends on the intent of your swing. I prefer the sole on flat on the ground obviously as this provides the the straightest and easiest to aim ball flight.

 

Flat on the ground at address or impact? The latter matters and is pretty hard to measure exactly.

[Atrayn]

Didn't read every post but if you're not changing the essence of your swing then lie angle really only effects the ball flight. If you are adjusting the swing for lie angIe than that is totally different and in my opinion not advised. You will have worse results changing your swing based on the lie angle than just accepting it and it's effect on the ball. Golf isn't about aiming the clubface, its about aiming the ball. You clubs are only crooked if you think they are. You can play just fine with crooked clubs if the holes you play don't dogleg lol.

 

For me I think it becomes the players job to be aware of this and change his or her orientation to the target accordingly. I'm not highly technical in the nuances of trackman and ballflight laws nor do I think they matter much. I really think it depends on the intent of your swing. I prefer the sole on flat on the ground obviously as this provides the the straightest and easiest to aim ball flight.

 

Flat on the ground at address or impact? The latter matters and is pretty hard to measure exactly.

 

It really matters if your hand plane isn't as close at impact as it was at address. How exact? It depends on the golfer. For Jason Day, it's 1/4 of a degree. For me, it's a degree and a half. It can be very obvious if you generally hit a straight ball. If your tendency is either a fade or a draw, it won't be quite as noticeable.

[cav5]

Didn't read every post but if you're not changing the essence of your swing then lie angle really only effects the ball flight. If you are adjusting the swing for lie angIe than that is totally different and in my opinion not advised. You will have worse results changing your swing based on the lie angle than just accepting it and it's effect on the ball. Golf isn't about aiming the clubface, its about aiming the ball. You clubs are only crooked if you think they are. You can play just fine with crooked clubs if the holes you play don't dogleg lol.

 

For me I think it becomes the players job to be aware of this and change his or her orientation to the target accordingly. I'm not highly technical in the nuances of trackman and ballflight laws nor do I think they matter much. I really think it depends on the intent of your swing. I prefer the sole on flat on the ground obviously as this provides the the straightest and easiest to aim ball flight.

 

Flat on the ground at address or impact? The latter matters and is pretty hard to measure exactly.

 

Impact. I agree, deff hard to measure. If the ball flight is compressed and straight I'd say its probably okay though. In my experience, the lie angle, and offset has much more effect on ball flight than face angle does.

[GLF4EVR]

I'm sorry, but when the COG of the club enters the turf later than the perimeter of the clubhead(either heel or toe), it's going to feel like garbage, no matter how well struck the shot is. It's almost like a twisting sensation, and that my friends, is definitely not butter....

 

I am just a tinker with equipment, but have experienced what you are describing. Years (6?), back when I was getting more consistent with ball striking I started paying attention to my divots (irons). The majority were deeper in the toe end. That season I had just started using a forged iron. So I went thru doing the static & dynamic lie for my irons, 4-PW (47), & my 52 & 58 wedge. It came out where the 4 iron was bent about 1.5 degrees upright. Then it slowly progressed down to the 58 being close to 4 degrees upright.

 

Changed my divots significantly! However had to adjust the swing just a little. Now had a good tendency to pull a short iron. The pull still creeps up every now & then, but the majority of the irons are actually on the line I try to hit them. Providing I swing correctly & not like a moron. Did not get to play much this season, so the moron swing was hanging around way more than I care to talk about. Anyway hope this at least gives you some of the input you are looking for. The closest club fitter to me is about 250 miles away, so I have learned how to do my own stuff. This web site has been a great learning tool for it.

[Ajlepisto]

There was a study about low points here: http://www.golfwrx.c...er-skill-level/

 

 

Interesting but not really relavent to any point I was addressing. The issue I was responding to isn't how close it starts, but whether it starts close enough to influence the interaction between the club face and the ball AND whether that influence is enough to make a difference in the ball flight. Once the start of the divot is past a certain point, the ball doesn't care how close it might be to that point.

 

 

If too flat of a lie doesn't cause improper turf interaction then I don't know what game you're playing. Maybe you just aren't sensitive enough, or a good enough iron striker to sense it? Lots of pros talk about this. Obviously they feel it too. Hit ANY iron too flat or too upright for you and you will immediately feel a difference in the quality of the strike and the quality of the turf interaction.

 

Especially with long irons, where the AoA is very shallow.

 

Nobody is insisting the ground is opening the clubface. This is what people just don't seem to udnerstand. What IS happening is the face is pointed in the wrong direction because of the loft, and the strike suffers, as well as the resulting feel through the turf. For many, the strike quality isn't even felt because they aren't that sensitive. So you have to rely on the ground interaction for someone to tell you it felt like they were too toe down. Some people still can't tell. That's why people use lie boards to measure.

 

Yes some were arguing that it was effecting the direction of the face and that change was effecting the ball flight.

 

And why are you assuming the quality of the strike suffers? If the d-plane is tilted a couple of degrees, the ball flight certainly is effected a bit and therefore the results of the stroke my be off from what was intended but the quality of the strike is generally considered to be more a function of the impact location on the face and the energy that is transferred from the club to the ball (which is a function of club head speed, dynamic loft and AoA, and face to path relationship). So in that context, the strike would only be effected if you have a club with a sweet spot that is sensitive to the impact location moving a millimeter or two. And considering the vast majority of players are not that consistent with their strikes to begin with, the effect from the lie angle being a little off is negligible.

 

As to "proper turf interaction" that's completely subjective and really irrelevant to my point. So if you want to argue that a change in feel from the turf interaction causes you to swing differently to compensate, and that swing change effects the results, go right ahead. I may be doubtful about it and would need to see some actual objective evidence (not just anecdotal) to validate in my mind- but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. I'll even buy the possibility that for some, the look of the club at address due to different lie angles can lead to a person making adjustments to the swing which can effect the results. But in both those cases, any changes come from a different dynamic of the club coming into impact and not from the fact that the face happens to be tilted a degree or two. Nor is there any support that the dynamic really needs to change for any reason, it's only a requirement that the player is imposing on themselves.

 

 

And the proper lie angle for me is 2* up so I hit irons that are too flat all the time - every time I demo/test a new model head or want to try out a new/different shaft or bug a friend to try theirs.

 

 

Also look at the gif in your linked article: http://www.tutelman....<!--NoParse1-->

 

If you mark where the bottom of the ball is, notice that the club deflects downward from the impact of the ball at nearly the same point. When I said "under the ball" I didn't mean the literal MM of surface area that is resting on the ground. But it's still under the ball in terms of where the leading edge of the ball is. In other words, you don't see where the divot starts until the ball leaves because the divot is beginning in the ground under where the ball was resting. Just your curser on the bottom of the ball. The club deflects down and hits the dirt very close to that exact spot. Also you can see even visually that the toe is deflecting down more than the heel at that point. Look at the change of orientation of the grooves.

 

Also read the paragraph below that.

 

It clearly says that the downward deflection of the club after impact changes nearly 12*. That is immediately after the ball leaves the face. While the ball is on the face it says it changes something like 6 degrees:

 

Clubhead approaching ball: -0.4º

Average angle during impact:-6.3º

Average angle from first contact to maximum compression: -4.3º

Average angle from maximum compression to separation: -8.4º

Immediately after separation: -12.5º

 

That is substantial. It goes from -.4 down to -12 down. With the toe doing most of the traveling. So of course too flat of a lie angle is going to feel bad through the turf. And if you're a good player, you're going to want to rectify that by trying to get the toe to come through higher. Which can be almost impossible to do unless you make a swing change to somehow keep the heel of the club lower and shift something.

 

There is nothing there that supports those conclusions. All that is independent of the lie angle. It's going to be the same for a perfectly fit lie angle as it is for one that's a few degrees off.

 

In fact if that aspect of your argument was true, the point about "with the toe doing most of the traveling" (it's not exactly true but that doesn't matter with respect to turf interaction) then even a club with a perfectly fit lie angle would have toe down turf interaction ('poor' by your defn). And it would be impossible to avoid that toe down turf interaction with out having a significantly upright lie angle at impact to compensate - which would then screw up the ball flight from the tilted d-plane.

 

In fact, that effect of the club moving down is one of a few reasons why the lie board is a poor way to check the proper lie angle.

 

I don't understand how you guys just don't get it.

 

Of course lie doesn't impact what the toe is doing. But it does make a different where the toe started from. Impact suffers because the lie angle makes the club play longer or flatter. You're only looking at D plane as a line. But what you need to also understand is how the sweet spot rotates and travels in 3D while on that D plane. Look at a golf swing for 2 seconds? 1.5mm on a club with your measurement is almost a groove width depending on the iron you're using.

 

But if you have an incorrect lie - when the toe IS drooping and flexing down it WILL hit the ball incorrectly, AND start the ball wherever the face is point.

 

This is such a basic, basic concept I don't understand how you guys just keep repeating the same thing over and over and still don't get it.

 

Go hit balls off a sidehill lie. Ignore ball flight for a second. Focus on the contact. Where does it hit on the face of the club? And how does it feel? When you start to get too large of a change, even if you have a good swing, you have to make compensations to hit the middle of the clubface.

 

Hitting the middle of the clubface, and having the club come through the ball level dynamically is more important than ball flight. Otherwise you're just hitting straight balls with a bad swing. Congrats.

 

Impact is the ultimate factor. And right after impact, is what your body feels. Tell me how a good player can strike the ball well when the lies don't fit them. It's uncomfortable.

 

Everyone keep saying a good player will adapt.

 

Sure. Some can. But why?! Just bend them to fit your swing and posture and call it done. I really don't get it.

 

Nobody said those physics were impacted by the lie angle. But put on your critical thinking hat for a second and just do some of it. You can literally try this out yourself. Look at the others who can vouch for it first hand. I can as well. I've fit hundreds of golfers and have seen this happen over and over again.

 

That's why you fit lie dynamically, not statically. It matters. How it goes through the ball, and how it goes through the turf is the immediate byproduct of that.

 

Yes it goes toe down. Why do you think a properly fitting lie will statically be toe high at address? Hm. To compensate for the physics demonstrated in that article. But hey - whatever.

[Ajlepisto]

But you're totally dismissing the turf interaction a poor lie angle also changes. Which changes how we swing the club. I saw literally hundreds of golfers change their swing over lie angle changes in the course of several minutes doing fittings. It completely changes how you strike the ball, and then almost immediately how you will swing in order to improve your strike. Many people will completely change what they're doing because of something as simple as a 2* lie angle change.

 

Yes, and it needs to be dismissed. Again, you seem to think that divots are happening under the ball where it most definitely isn't. Then, you talk about how adjusting the lie angle changes the way you swing. But, we're not really taking about what happens after the clubs are bent, are we? No. We talking about swinging with clubs that need adjustment. Just because your toe is down a couple degrees, doesn't mean that you'll be digging divots under the ball. After doing several hundred fittings you've somehow come to the conclusion that a bad lie angle influences people to dig divots under the ball. It doesn't. Have you even been to a driving range and hit balls off the grass? Have you seen where your divots occur? You think that adjusting the toe down a degree or two is gonna put your leading edge down into the dirt underneath the ball? It won't. Your assumption of this is ridiculous.

 

On a machine, yes, it will only change starting direction, and the face to path relationship. But players control their dynamic lie angle more than people realize. There are lessons on youtube that go over this specifically. Mark Crossfield has talked and given live lessons to players where he teaches them about controlling their dynamic lie angle to hit different shots, or correct a mistake. Understanding how to control and work with a given lie angle can help you hit draws or fades. But when you're not setup to your given baseline with lie, you're severely limited in what you can do and what you can understand.

 

That basically has nothing to do with this conversation. And even if it did, if a person with perfectly adjusted lie angles suddenly addressed the ball toe up or toe down it would not result in divots underneath the ball. Those are very minor adjustments to posture and ball position that won't suddenly move the low point of the arc back 3 or more inches. The low point is almost always out in front of the ball, even with the irons when they are played off the left side of the body.

 

.....The divot starts much closer to the ball on average in the best players. The low point is sooner than you think, and the club is much shallower than you think.

 

This is just wrong. I know where my low point is and where the divot is happening. It's not where you think it is; don't tell me my lie angles are perfect and that if I had them adjusted down a degree or two it would drastically move the low point under the ball.

 

Then, you use the term "Shallow". The more shallow you come in, the less likely you are to dig divots under the ball. A steep angle of attack will get the divot happening closer to where you're talking about. Even still, by coming in steep, the ball will be inches off the face before the divots does anything to the face angle. Turf interaction from poor lie angles is not the big factor influencing ball flights that you think it is. There are times where the face meets the ball at the exact same time that the leading edge digs into the dirt. In those cases yes, it will move the ball around but those are fat shots. If the shot is not fat, the odds of the turf influencing the ball is almost non existent. Nearly always, the ball will have left the face before the turf can have anything to say about it.

 

There is a study right in your face and you still don't get it.

 

Good players, especially off of tight lies, will be impacted by a lie that doesn't fit. Toe droops happens, pros talk about turf interaction, and that's what they're talking about.

 

You're just flat out, 100% wrong. The divot starts almost immediately after the ball. Watch the slow motion videos. You're not hitting the ball way before your divot starts. Players who hit the ball higher, like Rory, and other pros who can almost pick it are 100% impacted by a lie angle that is too flat. Also too upright, although that doesn't always manifest itself through the turf the same way. The only videos that showed the club entering the ground dramatically after the ball were struck off a tee, or had a rearward ball position (that's Tiger hitting a stinger) so they're going to have different data.

 

The lie angle doesn't impact your low point, but it makes the club come into the gournd toe down, more so than the heel. If they're too flat. So you tell me. If you have a divot starting toe first, what's that going to do to the feel of your shot? Also what is that going to do to your impact point on your clubface? And your starting direction. You guys just don't get it. Clearly you don't have enough experience, or you just haven't ever tried it yourself.

 

Go take a club, bend it 2 degrees flat, and go hit off a mat. You will instantly feel a different. Especially in your long iron. THe mat is unforgiving and you will feel and hear the impact of the club on the ground. Will you automatically hit it fat? Maybe not. But the byproduct of a lie that is too flat for a good player can cause that. You didn't read what I said.

 

If you are playing a lie that is too flat, the only way to hit the ball solidly is to shallow your downswing enough to compensate for it. That can cause all sorts of issues if you're getting it underneath. THe club goes through the ball and ground better, but the swing doesn't fit you. Why do you think that toe is marking? Because that's what hitting the ground. The heel isnt even getting INTO the ground in most cases. So you're going to take bad divots that feel terrible, and it usually makes you swing completely different in order to compensate for it. If you know how. If you don't, then you just continue doing whatever you're doing and it feels terrible.

 

And if you are starting your divot near the ball, which despite who you think you are (you're not a tour pro, sorry) good players come into the ball very shallow and are starting a divot closer to the ball than you are, and their low point is sooner than yours. Look at the study. Link was right there for you.

 

If you know what your low point is, then what is it? Trackman will give you an actual number. We can assume your low point is 4 inches past the ball as that's as average for a good player. Since you seem to say you are.

 

So we can tell where your divot will start based on that number.

 

If you're trying to hit a long iron, with an iron that is too flat for you, you will start to catch the ball slightly fat. Or, you will have to hit down more degrees to compensate for the toe droop. The whole point of lie fitting to begin with is to get the club to strike the ball level. After impact the club deflects and toe droops an amount that is dependent on your shaft. It something is coming in toe down, the toe is lower than the heel is. If you're trying to get the sole of the club to move through the strike level, which it's supposed to, and which it's designed to, then you will catch the toe too early. If it's 1 degree too flat, maybe you won't really notice. It depends how shallow you are into the ball.

 

You guys crack me up.

 

The study itself shows a -.04 angle of decent on the club. That's virtually level. Incorrect lie will most definitely impact your impact if you have anything close to the PGA tour averages for AoA. The data was right. there.

 

Here you go, since you obviously don't even bother to look yourself:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=7DilkNzniNY

 

Put your mouse under the ball. Where does that divot start? AND some would even say he hit down a ton on it because it's so long. Well, maybe, but it's starting really really close to that ball there isn't it?

 

Here's a picture from an article from Tom Watson. Staged? Maybe. But look, the divot sure looks like it's starting almost beneath the ball, now isn't it.

 

http://media.golfdig...consistency.jpg

 

 

Nobody said it starts immediately under the ball. On a wedge, maybe, if you're using the bounce. But the ball COVERS the area of turf where your divot starts. It might not be resting on it, because the ball is round and only a small portion of it is in contact with the ground. But most good strikers start their divot before it gets past the leading edge of the ball. Nobody cares where YOUR low point is. In fact, according to the data, if yours is that much further than the ball, then you're statistically more likely to be a higher handicap player. So, who cares? It's not about you, as an individual.

 

Here's more:

 

Lexi. Look how back the ball position is! Woa...she might be hitting way down and starting that divot way out past the ball....Oh. Maybe not. In fact, hey, it's starting awfully close to that ball even though it's pretty far back in her stance. Weird.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=vyLRWxtx_w4

 

Speith: https://www.youtube....h?v=skaYXnQ7iXY

 

Here is Tiger, The king of hitting down. Look wher ethe grass begins to fly? Really close to the ball.

 

Rory:

 

 

In fact look, here is a new video of Rory. He's obviously been starting to release the club later, but look at the long iron and then his 3 wood. Those are pure, but the ground is actually being struck way, way closer to the ball.

 

He's starting his divots later with his short irons now, for whatever reason. He didn't always. As you can see in the other video. That's why I said, the longer the club especially, the flatter your swing becomes, and the more important having too flat or a lie for example, will impact it. You get the toe drooping too much when you're essentially trying to pick the ball and the only way to not get the toe into the ground too much is to leave the heel up. How does that not impact your strike quality? How don't you get that?

 

This is the thing. You can basically predict where the divot will start because in order to get the sweet spot down to the ball the club has to reach a certain height. Unless your handle is more forward than another (Like Dustin Johnson, for example) then you're going to have to start your divot fairly soon after the ball because the club is beginning to reach the bottom of it's arc sooner. Rory sometimes holds on longer than others as well and starts his divot later. Seems to be that the guys who play with stronger grips start the divot later because they're coming in with less dynamic loft. They also tend to have a lot of speed, which lets them get away with it. I'm not sure anyone has ever looked at low point in relation to release or grip style but it could be interesting. Either way though, the sweetspot has to get down to the ball somehow. So either you're coming in with the handle more in front to shift your low point forward more and hit down more, or you're going to have to allow the club to release enough to at least get it down to the ball on time. Why do you think people struggle when they move the ball dramatically further back in their stance? Because it's difficult to release the club on time when you've got it that far back. You can hit fat and thin shots all day trying to learn to hit a hard shot off your back foot.

 

So if the swing bottom is roung, and a PGA top 10 player has a low point that is closer to the ball than anyone else with a higher handicap, where do you think their divot is going to start? It can't be starting before the ball. But it also can't be starting way after, because the low point is coming quicker.

 

How does that not make sense?

 

I've backed up everything with video, the study linked to apparently prove it wrong just reiterates the importance of it, and all you're doing is saying that you know something, with virtually no proof.

 

Show me, then, that too flat of a lie (not .5 degrees here, come now) will not impact strike location. I will SEND YOU face and lie tape. Go put it on your club, and go hit off something that will mark it. Then bend the iron a few degrees flat, and do it again. If you don't change your swing, your results are going to be different. There is no way that isn't happening. No way.

 

Here:

 

He even says. He hits one 4 up and then another 4 flat. Extreme? Yes, but it shows you that the lie will change how impact feels because you're striking the ball with a clubface that isn't lining up how it's supposed to line up. Too upright can make everything feel like it's thin. Too flat can feel liek the club will dig toe early. It rips the club open in your hands.

 

No. I've said. That's not what causes the ball to start right. WE ALL KNOW THAT. But as you get flatter in lie and longer in the club, it can make it feel almost impossible to not get the toe into the ground too early and ruin impact.

[Zurb]

I played with clubs that were too flat for me for years. I stuggled with toe strikes. The clubs are worn in that area. A new fitment, a new lie angle, and the strikes are now center. The difference is night and day.

[North Butte]

When I get new clubs I try them out for a couple rounds and if I like them, I'll stick with them for at least 100 rounds or so. Sometimes more.

 

After a while I will managed to put my wear pattern somewhere near the center of the face and make turf contact with something close to the center of the sole. Even with irons or wedges having somewhat different lengths, lie angles or weights.

 

That tells me that my swing, within reasonable bounds, tends to adapt to whatever clubs I'm using. So the question becomes, which clubs cause my swing to "adapt" in ways that create the best and most consistent results. That is not always the same as asking which clubs seem to work the best hitting ball into a net or on a driving range. It takes quite an extended period of actual play to know if a slightly different-spec set will turn out to be good for my game or bad, on balance.

[A.Princey]

Well, I've hit some irons that I've adjusted 3deg more upright and the turf interaction is night and day. Divots are now wider and the club glides through the ground and feels fantastic, ball flight is strong and flush but does start a little left as should be expected, but I will just change setup a minor amount to get direction centered. I think I'm on to something and I like the results so far, but time will tell once I adjust to the upright look of the clubs at address.

[Smash Factors]

The lie angle doesn't impact your low point, but it makes the club come into the gournd toe down, more so than the heel. If they're too flat. So you tell me. If you have a divot starting toe first, what's that going to do to the feel of your shot? Also what is that going to do to your impact point on your clubface? And your starting direction. You guys just don't get it. Clearly you don't have enough experience, or you just haven't ever tried it yourself.

 

I'm not arguing what it does to things like "Feel", "Impact point" on the clubface and "Starting point". I'm arguing that the ball has left the face before the turf has impact on it.

 

Go take a club, bend it 2 degrees flat, and go hit off a mat. You will instantly feel a different. Especially in your long iron. THe mat is unforgiving and you will feel and hear the impact of the club on the ground. Will you automatically hit it fat? Maybe not. But the byproduct of a lie that is too flat for a good player can cause that. You didn't read what I said.

 

IMO, more than 2 degrees flat would be necessary get those types of results.

 

If you are playing a lie that is too flat, the only way to hit the ball solidly is to shallow your downswing enough to compensate for it. That can cause all sorts of issues if you're getting it underneath. THe club goes through the ball and ground better, but the swing doesn't fit you. Why do you think that toe is marking? Because that's what hitting the ground. The heel isnt even getting INTO the ground in most cases. So you're going to take bad divots that feel terrible, and it usually makes you swing completely different in order to compensate for it. If you know how. If you don't, then you just continue doing whatever you're doing and it feels terrible.

 

I'm not arguing any of the things you are talking about here.

 

And if you are starting your divot near the ball, which despite who you think you are (you're not a tour pro, sorry) good players come into the ball very shallow and are starting a divot closer to the ball than you are, and their low point is sooner than yours. Look at the study. Link was right there for you.

 

Okay. Here's some screen shots from this study you keep talking about.

 

Before impact.

 

 

After Impact. Ball has left the face, leading edge has no turf interaction. Please do not attempt to convince me that with the leading edge two degrees down that the club will be digging a divot.

 

 

After impact. Ball is long gone when the divot actually starts a few inches out in front of the ball.

 

 

My points have been made. I've used photos from your own references to prove my points.

[Ajlepisto]

The lie angle doesn't impact your low point, but it makes the club come into the gournd toe down, more so than the heel. If they're too flat. So you tell me. If you have a divot starting toe first, what's that going to do to the feel of your shot? Also what is that going to do to your impact point on your clubface? And your starting direction. You guys just don't get it. Clearly you don't have enough experience, or you just haven't ever tried it yourself.

 

I'm not arguing what it does to things like "Feel", "Impact point" on the clubface and "Starting point". I'm arguing that the ball has left the face before the turf has impact on it.

 

Go take a club, bend it 2 degrees flat, and go hit off a mat. You will instantly feel a different. Especially in your long iron. THe mat is unforgiving and you will feel and hear the impact of the club on the ground. Will you automatically hit it fat? Maybe not. But the byproduct of a lie that is too flat for a good player can cause that. You didn't read what I said.

 

IMO, more than 2 degrees flat would be necessary get those types of results.

 

If you are playing a lie that is too flat, the only way to hit the ball solidly is to shallow your downswing enough to compensate for it. That can cause all sorts of issues if you're getting it underneath. THe club goes through the ball and ground better, but the swing doesn't fit you. Why do you think that toe is marking? Because that's what hitting the ground. The heel isnt even getting INTO the ground in most cases. So you're going to take bad divots that feel terrible, and it usually makes you swing completely different in order to compensate for it. If you know how. If you don't, then you just continue doing whatever you're doing and it feels terrible.

 

I'm not arguing any of the things you are talking about here.

 

And if you are starting your divot near the ball, which despite who you think you are (you're not a tour pro, sorry) good players come into the ball very shallow and are starting a divot closer to the ball than you are, and their low point is sooner than yours. Look at the study. Link was right there for you.

 

Okay. Here's some screen shots from this study you keep talking about.

 

Before impact.

 

 

After Impact. Ball has left the face, leading edge has no turf interaction. Please do not attempt to convince me that with the leading edge two degrees down that the club will be digging a divot.

 

 

After impact. Ball is long gone when the divot actually starts a few inches out in front of the ball.

 

 

My points have been made. I've used photos from your own references to prove my points.

 

Go a few frames forward in that video and your point falls apart. Actually. Look at your 3rd picture. What's the dark mark beginning right above the line you just made? Hm. Perhaps some of the early stages of the club interacting with the turf? Couldn't be....could it?

 

 

 

1. I said the divot starts under the leading edge of the ball on most shots. I specifically said NOT directly under the small surface area that is contacting the ground. Where did you mark it? At the lowest point. So, firstly, your line is in the wrong place. Also, at this camera angle, which is slightly ahead and angled at him, the ball appears further back in his stance. So if you're marking the middle of the ball, you actually need to account for the angle. But either way, it doesn't really matter in this case, because the pictures are pretty clear.

 

2. Let's go a few frames forward from your post. Any particular reason you didn't want to post the rest of them? Oh, I know...because once the grass and dirt has a chance to actually react to the club instead of the club forcing it forward, you start to see where the grass is being disturbed. Awfully close to that ball there, huh?

 

How do you think you could NOT almost immediately take a divot on a proper strike with the toe deflecting down something like 8 degrees almost immediately? Look at the Tutelman article. The numbers are right there. The club experiences massive droop at and through impact?

 

Here you go. Once the dirt begins to clear you can see the grass is clearly a lighter shade almost directly where the ball was which shows that the club was already beginning to interact with it. Then the actual dirt shows a small distance after that as the club continues to descend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can clearly see, in the last picture, that the grass is lighter green at the red line, with the small spot I circled in your picture actually showing on the left side of my line. That means the club is already beginning to interact with the ground. Not the dirt, but nobody ever said that. I said the divot and turf interaction more or less under the ball. It's clearly demonstrated here.

 

You can argue all you want about the merits of feel and lie angle, but that's going to be a losing battle because there are others here that can attest to it.

 

Nobody said the club hits the ball and the ground at the same time.

 

1. I said that the lie angle, specifically if it's flat, matters through impact because the club can come in unlevel and ruin the feel of impact for a player because of the twisting motion that the club will do when the toe hits resistance before the heel. If you're very shallow, and take the ball slightly before hitting the ground, as most good players do (again proven with the low point data) then if your lie angles are off, especially the flatter the club is (like a long iron) you will often experience a poor strike on the club face, a direction issue (that's all physics, and nobody said otherwise) but also on the quality of the strike and the starting point of the turf interaction.

 

Any time the heel or the toe start interacting with the ground first, it's going to feel terrible through impact, if that trend continues and the club hits enough resistance to have one side begin to slow down faster than the other.

 

Hit an iron 1 degree too flat, you'll feel this. 2, definitely. Anything more and the impact will be so different that I just don't see how in the world you could argue this, at all.

 

Look at the driving range video of Rory. When he hits his 3w the grass is actually disturbed almost BEHIND the ball. Clearly the more shallow you are, the more lie matters. Why else would they made the bottom sole of a wood or a hybrid rounded like that? Or put rails on the Baffler? To help the club slide across the ground. Because you're coming in so shallow that often times you might strike the ground slightly before the ball. So clearly even the people making the clubs know that turf interaction is important and can save a shot here and there.

[A.Princey]

The dynamic fit/bend(upright) was definitely the way to go. Now, I'm not afraid of how my shots will feel and know when contact was poor because it will also reflect as such in the ball flight. I've had to adjust my swing to accommodate the face angle but it's for the better I believe in the long run. I am going to an open stance and staying behind the ball more now for a shallower attack and playing a straight-to-fade shot. Before, I was attempting this change and thin shots were all too likely so I could only manage my long irons off the tee this way, but now it's playable off the deck as well. Still adjusting to everything, but I've made a lot of really good swings the last time out and look forward to grooving this in. Just have to make the new swing feel comfortable and I think I will be getting better instead of fighting a toe-digging, hook miss like before. Freedom vs constant management/maintenance....

[fjk]

Here's a basic basic concept.

 

The variance from swing to swing in a typical golfer is more than 1*.

 

In fact the levelness of the lie will vary more than 1*.

 

If you grip down 1" on your club does impact suddenly feel terrible? because it's now 1* flatter.

 

 

To illustrate how small 1* is, realize that the difference in one tick on a clock is 6*.

 

So while correct lie angle fitting is important... It's not nearly as dramatic as some people make it out to be.

[nsxguy]

Here's a basic basic concept.

 

The variance from swing to swing in a typical golfer is more than 1*.

 

In fact the levelness of the lie will vary more than 1*.

 

If you grip down 1" on your club does impact suddenly feel terrible? because it's now 1* flatter.

 

 

To illustrate how small 1* is, realize that the difference in one tick on a clock is 6*.

 

So while correct lie angle fitting is important... It's not nearly as dramatic as some people make it out to be.

 

THIS !!! The idea that you can't hit the sweet spot of the club if your lie is off by a couple of degrees is ludicrous.

 

And this is one of the reasons why your average golfer doesn't (and doesn't need to) get fitted.

 

Unless they're unusually tall, short or have unusually long or short arms, the standard, off the rack lie angle clubs will suit them just fine.

 

Get into the (roughly) scratch or better category and then you probably strike it consistently enough to want to get your lie angles just so.

[North Butte]

I just played two rounds with a set of irons 2-1/2 degrees flatter than my everyday set. No difference in contact pattern or left-right tendency. Shooting in the eighties I'm nowhere near good enough to attribute any specific effects to just a couple degrees of lie angle. Not even close, wouldn't matter if I played each set 100 rounds.

[A.Princey]

Play with clubs 5+ degrees flat and tell me how it goes.... Better yet, do it with MB's and tell me how flush you're still hitting them.

 

I can play to a wide range of setups and club specs, but feeling comfortable in any given one is whole other story.

[nsxguy]

Play with clubs 5+ degrees flat and tell me how it goes.... Better yet, do it with MB's and tell me how flush you're still hitting them.

 

Oy........... :rolleyes: