Rolling back the ball

[North Butte]

You gotta love the notion. So and so needs to choose between my idiotic idea #1 and my idiotic idea #2. Because I say so.

[PGArox]

Geoff Shackelford is a narcissistic idiot who likes to hear himself talk.

 

Other than that, I like the guy.

 

Yeah, I'm not too keen on Shack myself. It's one thing to have great knowledge, and to be thought of as an authority by others. But Shack thinks he's an authority.

[carrier street]

I did not read all 54 pages of this because I am not a crazy person, so I apologize if this has been covered.

 

1. What does rolling back the ball X% actually mean? I assume that would mean the max distance a ball could fly in USGA/R&A testing, but what are the real world implications of that? Would it be like Phil said and it would shorten a longer hitter by a greater number of yards than a shorter hitter? Or is it possible that there could be some unintended consequences and such a rolled-back ball would be more penal for slower swing speeds?

 

2. What is the actual concern of the USGA? Is it scoring on the classic courses getting too low? And if so, as a total or in relation to par? If it's in relation to par, why not change par? If it's total score, why not grow a little rough and actually make bunkers bit of a hazard?

 

3. Is the USGA saying this is a game-wide issue, or just for top level PROFESSIONALS? The only data I saw was for the PGA tour, which is a small subset of touring professionals, which is a sliver of all golfers.

 

4. DIDN'T THE USGA JUST HAVE A BIG AD CAMPAIGN STARRING JACK NICKLAUS ABOUT USING THE CLOSER TEES?!?!?!?

 

I know that's a lot of questions, but I will say one thing with certainty: The USGA will eff this up.

[Bye]

Where any of you guys in the USA sent a survey/questionnaire about the proposed new rules and world handicapping system?

 

The reason I ask is I wonder if they will do this at some point with this subject.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

Just flipped over to the tournament. That drive of Tiger’s had to have rolled out at least 25 yards.

 

He’s going to have to hit some drives with serious backspin to bring his average rollout down to 10yards.

[rangersgoalie]

Geoff Shackelford is a narcissistic idiot who likes to hear himself talk.

 

Other than that, I like the guy.

 

Yeah, I'm not too keen on Shack myself. It's one thing to have great knowledge, and to be thought of as an authority by others. But Shack thinks he's an authority.

 

Geoff is one of the best architecture authors right now....

If you don't believe me, just ask Geoff.

 

He's pretty much a stereotypical California douchebag

[radiman]

Uh oh, I see Rory is defending the modern distances. That evil Titleist must have gotten to him and be paying him under the table to push their evil agenda. Will they stop at nothing? Again, there's no way he would have formed his own opinion.

[Shilgy]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

[deadsolid...shank]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

[Shilgy]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

Fine, you win. Every tee shot rolls at least 40-50 yards. That's why these guys are longer than my buddies. Clearly the carry stats are incorrect.

Edit, yes I am saying the average is 10-20. It's longer than that perhaps on flat dry no wind tee shots. But you have uphill and into the wind shots that are much less, even none. So we may not be that far away just looking at it from different angles.

[HitEmTrue]

Radiman,

 

I think you are forgetting that there was a fairly significant change 20 odd years ago, just the other way. You may not have experienced it but some of us did. I’m 38, first played the course I am a member at as a 14 year old with a balata and a persimmon driver. I’ve played there one way or another through all of the changes and have seen first hand how the equipment has affected how the course plays. If you played there from the tips, none of the hazards would be in play from the tee.

 

The thread is 50 odd pages so I guess some of have not read every post. I think I have been fairly clear, my preference would be a 10% roll back for the tour style ball. Taking things back to 1996 distances. I have also said that if the only way it can be done is for everyone, all styles of ball then it shouldn’t happen. 20% is madness, and I have been very clear about that.

 

I don’t think that I am right and you are wrong, it’s just my point of view.

 

Roll back the courses to 1996 distances too, right?

 

No need to.

 

K. So, 2018 layouts with 1996 distances.

It's totally fair if that's what you support, I just wanted to make sure.

 

A ball under pre-2002 standards will go longer distances than before. Better equipment, faster swing speeds.

 

[deadsolid...shank]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

Fine, you win. Every tee shot rolls at least 40-50 yards. That's why these guys are longer than my buddies. Clearly the carry stats are incorrect.

Edit, yes I am saying the average is 10-20. It's longer than that perhaps on flat dry no wind tee shots. But you have uphill and into the wind shots that are much less, every none. So we may not be that far away just looking at it from different angles.

 

I certainly don't think it's 40-50 yards on even a high percentage of shots. And yes, good point on the uphill and into the wind shots.

 

But I think we're still in the thread about tour distances (sometimes I can't even remember what the the thread is about), and that is the context of us talking about the rollouts, whether or not they are excessive. And if cutting them back might address the original issue. Because, to me, as it pertains to this, only the long rollouts are pertinent here. The uphill and into the wind shots don't really factor into this part of the discussion because they aren't an issue. . IMHO anyway.

[HitEmTrue]

I did not read all 54 pages of this because I am not a crazy person, so I apologize if this has been covered.

 

1. What does rolling back the ball X% actually mean? I assume that would mean the max distance a ball could fly in USGA/R&A testing, but what are the real world implications of that? Would it be like Phil said and it would shorten a longer hitter by a greater number of yards than a shorter hitter? Or is it possible that there could be some unintended consequences and such a rolled-back ball would be more penal for slower swing speeds?

 

2. What is the actual concern of the USGA? Is it scoring on the classic courses getting too low? And if so, as a total or in relation to par? If it's in relation to par, why not change par? If it's total score, why not grow a little rough and actually make bunkers bit of a hazard?

 

3. Is the USGA saying this is a game-wide issue, or just for top level PROFESSIONALS? The only data I saw was for the PGA tour, which is a small subset of touring professionals, which is a sliver of all golfers.

 

4. DIDN'T THE USGA JUST HAVE A BIG AD CAMPAIGN STARRING JACK NICKLAUS ABOUT USING THE CLOSER TEES?!?!?!?

 

I know that's a lot of questions, but I will say one thing with certainty: The USGA will eff this up.

 

Is the USGA actually working on rolling the ball back?

 

[DavePelz4]

Geoff Shackelford is a narcissistic idiot who likes to hear himself talk.

 

Other than that, I like the guy.

 

Yeah, I'm not too keen on Shack myself. It's one thing to have great knowledge, and to be thought of as an authority by others. But Shack thinks he's an authority.

 

Geoff is one of the best architecture authors right now....

If you don't believe me, just ask Geoff.

 

He's pretty much a stereotypical California douchebag

 

Dilly dilly! He needs to be sent to the pit of misery.

[deadsolid...shank]

DP, tell us how you really feel about him!

[buckeyefl]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

 

You mean like the uphill driver today that carried a bunker at 285 yars uphill but ended up being a 320+ yard drive? Oh and it came from one of the highest hitters on tour. It almost perfectly matched the uphill 3 wood that rolled 30+. Complete anomalies.

[lowheel]

This idea is in theory just a discussion because in reality if they actually attempted to make a pro ball the manufacturers would sue the USGA and PGA into oblivion. this isnt square grooves where they were given years to comply and had a list for people participating in competition. A pro ball would be chaos to legislate and implement.

[lowheel]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

 

You mean like the uphill driver today that carried a bunker at 285 yars uphill but ended up being a 320+ yard drive? Oh and it came from one of the highest hitters on tour. It almost perfectly matched the uphill 3 wood that rolled 30+. Complete anomalies.

 

LOL, I was thinking about that exact shot when reading this. Not to mention hitting 2/3 irons 240 and they roll out to 267... pretty standard out there

[deadsolid...shank]

Those are just fitting the narrative.

[Golfnutgalen]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

 

You mean like the uphill driver today that carried a bunker at 285 yars uphill but ended up being a 320+ yard drive? Oh and it came from one of the highest hitters on tour. It almost perfectly matched the uphill 3 wood that rolled 30+. Complete anomalies.

 

Do you really think that rolled out 30+ yards? I'd need to see the video again, but it looked more like 10-15 to me.

 

Edit:

The video is on Twitter, really hard to tell, could have been 30 yards, but we never actually saw the ball land or roll out.

https://twitter.com/...ast-and-moving/

[Ashley Schaeffer]

And like you the USGAs mindset is built around emotion and opinion while repeatedly skipping over the obvious and facts. How many years has it been since the ProV1 was introduced? Suddenly its the ball.

 

Jack Nicklaus has been complaining

 

No way! I don't believe it.

[lowheel]

Radiman,

 

I think you are forgetting that there was a fairly significant change 20 odd years ago, just the other way. You may not have experienced it but some of us did. I'm 38, first played the course I am a member at as a 14 year old with a balata and a persimmon driver. I've played there one way or another through all of the changes and have seen first hand how the equipment has affected how the course plays. If you played there from the tips, none of the hazards would be in play from the tee.

 

The thread is 50 odd pages so I guess some of have not read every post. I think I have been fairly clear, my preference would be a 10% roll back for the tour style ball. Taking things back to 1996 distances. I have also said that if the only way it can be done is for everyone, all styles of ball then it shouldn't happen. 20% is madness, and I have been very clear about that.

 

I don't think that I am right and you are wrong, it's just my point of view.

 

Roll back the courses to 1996 distances too, right?

 

No need to.

 

K. So, 2018 layouts with 1996 distances.

It's totally fair if that's what you support, I just wanted to make sure.

 

A ball under pre-2002 standards will go longer distances than before. Better equipment, faster swing speeds.

 

And more crooked by alot...

[Ashley Schaeffer]

 

 

A ball under pre-2002 standards will go longer distances than before. Better equipment, faster swing speeds.

 

And more crooked by alot...

 

Agreed. So, not really congruent to force the old ball on the modern layouts. Courses (and maybe even equipment) would have to be rolled back, or else you'd have a definite disconnect.

[HitEmTrue]

 

A ball under pre-2002 standards will go longer distances than before. Better equipment, faster swing speeds.

 

And more crooked by alot...

 

They don’t regulate spin now, do they? A modern ball, with spin characteristics to meet different needs (just like now)...why would it be more crooked?

 

[15th Club]

And like you the USGAs mindset is built around emotion and opinion while repeatedly skipping over the obvious and facts. How many years has it been since the ProV1 was introduced? Suddenly its the ball.

 

Jack Nicklaus has been complaining

 

No way! I don't believe it.

 

Don't ever do that to me again on this forum, Ashley Schaefer. Don't pull a quote of mine like that, out of context, simply to be used for one of your insulting smart-alecky one-liners. My quote was not one line, "Jack Nicklaus has been complaining."

 

I might suggest that you knew better, and that you were being deliberately mendacious with that out-of-context quote. But I am not so sure what you know.

 

"Reported."

[clevited]

And like you the USGAs mindset is built around emotion and opinion while repeatedly skipping over the obvious and facts. How many years has it been since the ProV1 was introduced? Suddenly its the ball.

 

Jack Nicklaus has been complaining

 

No way! I don't believe it.

 

Don't ever do that to me again on this forum, Ashley Schaefer. Don't pull a quote of mine like that, out of context, simply to be used for one of your insulting smart-alecky one-liners. My quote was not one line, "Jack Nicklaus has been complaining."

 

I might suggest that you knew better, and that you were being deliberately mendacious with that out-of-context quote. But I am not so sure what you know.

 

"Reported."

 

Dude, really? Grow up.

[thug the bunny]

And like you the USGAs mindset is built around emotion and opinion while repeatedly skipping over the obvious and facts. How many years has it been since the ProV1 was introduced? Suddenly its the ball.

 

Jack Nicklaus has been complaining

 

No way! I don't believe it.

 

Don't ever do that to me again on this forum, Ashley Schaefer. Don't pull a quote of mine like that, out of context, simply to be used for one of your insulting smart-alecky one-liners. My quote was not one line, "Jack Nicklaus has been complaining."

 

I might suggest that you knew better, and that you were being deliberately mendacious with that out-of-context quote. But I am not so sure what you know.

 

"Reported."

 

You are getting out of hand 15. Ashley's response was not worthy of report, no matter how out of context. And your reply was borderline threatening - 'Don't ever do that to me again on this forum...' I have been ignoring you for a while because of the nature of your replies in spite of the fact that you called me out directly , but now I am confronting you. Please compose yourself and stick to civilized conversation and don't threaten fellow WRXers.

[15th Club]

I did not read all 54 pages of this because I am not a crazy person, so I apologize if this has been covered.

 

1. What does rolling back the ball X% actually mean? I assume that would mean the max distance a ball could fly in USGA/R&A testing, but what are the real world implications of that? Would it be like Phil said and it would shorten a longer hitter by a greater number of yards than a shorter hitter? Or is it possible that there could be some unintended consequences and such a rolled-back ball would be more penal for slower swing speeds?...

The "X%" discussion is quite a lot of diversion at this point. It should certainly be studied; I feel certain that it has been, in detail. Jack Nicklaus' comment about a "20%" rollback was an offhand comment in the course of an interview. It is not any particular proposal. At this point, that number is largely a distraction.

 

Assuredly, no rollback advocate is seeking to penalize one group of Tour players (like, "long hitters") over another ("short hitters") I expect that no one would have the vaguest idea how to even define those groups. Rest assured that there have been a lot of reduced-distance ball tests and demonstrations already, and there will be more.

 

 

...2. What is the actual concern of the USGA? Is it scoring on the classic courses getting too low? And if so, as a total or in relation to par? If it's in relation to par, why not change par? If it's total score, why not grow a little rough and actually make bunkers bit of a hazard?...

I'll try to speak for the USGA, for the benefit of doing my best to give you an answer; and I'll say that it is absolutely not about scoring, or par. At least not per se. It is about the quality of golf, on the historic championship golf courses, and preserving those courses for future championship play. We've seen years of gradually-increasing-length courses and the need to alter the great championship courses. We are losing, to national competitive play, many older courses that can't be lengthened. And as much as anything, we seem to be building toward longer and longer courses through out the game. And longer and longer playing times, for championship golf, for competitive golf, and for recreational golf. Golf balls are already regulated by the USGA. It is simply time to update the testing protocols to deal with actual play at elite levels nowadays.

 

...3. Is the USGA saying this is a game-wide issue, or just for top level PROFESSIONALS? The only data I saw was for the PGA tour, which is a small subset of touring professionals, which is a sliver of all golfers....

Don't get hung up on "PROFESSIONALS." Because one of the areas of the most acute problems with length is the length of long-hitting collegiate players, and other elite amateurs. I suppose that the PGA Tour and the Augusta National Golf Club can build whatever they want, for a tv audience. Universities, and USGA qualifier sites can't in many cases.

 

The real division here would follow the divide(s) seen the groove rule of 2010. There are elites, and there are recreational players. The elites include professional tour players first and foremost, but then also the ams who play in the NCAA and in national amateur and state amateur competitions.

 

Recreational players are not the reason for, and wouldn't be the target of, any ball rollback. Just like they were not targeted by the groove rule.

 

...4. DIDN'T THE USGA JUST HAVE A BIG AD CAMPAIGN STARRING JACK NICKLAUS ABOUT USING THE CLOSER TEES?!?!?!?

 

I know that's a lot of questions, but I will say one thing with certainty: The USGA will eff this up.

Yes. There was that ad campaign. I really liked it. Did anybody not like it? I've seen numerous people from both sides of this ball rollback debate agree and say that of course many recreational players should move up a set of tees. I think "tee aspiration" is psychologically akin to making Pitching Wedges 41 degrees.

 

Notwithstanding your trashtalk aimed at the USGA, I wonder what you think was wrong/bad/hypocritical/misguided about that ad campaign?

[Shilgy]

the "carry distance" stat is misleading because it's not measuring the same drives as the "driving distance" stat. A perfect example is JB who averaged 304.4 yards of carry in 2009 out of 47 attempts while his driving distance was 304.6 out of 148 attempts. That was an outlier of course, but it proves how the stats can be misleading if you do not take all the information into account.

 

That considered, the average roll out on tour is about 20 yards on the measured holes, but we've also seen balls stop on a dime or roll out 100 yards on a down slope. We've already seen Tiger get -6 yards of roll with a driver and 36 yards of roll with a downhill 3-wood this week.

I would believe the 20 in some events. The radar unfortunately is not used on every tee shot. That said we see plenty of tee shots with little to no roll but they don't fit the narrative.

 

You keep talking about all these shots with little to no rollout. And while they obviously are occurring on occasion, it seems a lot more people are seeing the “narrative” ones as opposed to your no roll out ones. I guess all of us who are seeing the ball roll out are imagining it m

 

You mean like the uphill driver today that carried a bunker at 285 yars uphill but ended up being a 320+ yard drive? Oh and it came from one of the highest hitters on tour. It almost perfectly matched the uphill 3 wood that rolled 30+. Complete anomalies.

 

LOL, I was thinking about that exact shot when reading this. Not to mention hitting 2/3 irons 240 and they roll out to 267... pretty standard out there

It's really shocking a stinger would roll out isn't it?

 

Back on topic will a 20% rollback ball just get 40 yards of roll on every drive instead of 50?

[buckeyefl]

And like you the USGAs mindset is built around emotion and opinion while repeatedly skipping over the obvious and facts. How many years has it been since the ProV1 was introduced? Suddenly its the ball.

 

Jack Nicklaus has been complaining

 

No way! I don't believe it.

 

Don't ever do that to me again on this forum, Ashley Schaefer. Don't pull a quote of mine like that, out of context, simply to be used for one of your insulting smart-alecky one-liners. My quote was not one line, "Jack Nicklaus has been complaining."

 

I might suggest that you knew better, and that you were being deliberately mendacious with that out-of-context quote. But I am not so sure what you know.

 

"Reported."

 

So I guess I was pretty spot on when I was going to say you were acting like a child with your " give me candy or give me cake. Those are the only two options or I'm going to hold my breath until I pass out."