Shaft lean during practice swing but Casting during real swing !!

[Brock Landers]

Intent.

[GolfTurkey]

NEVER work on NOT DOING SOMETHING...

 

Isn't that a logical contradiction...this would mean working on not not doing something? :)

[GeorgeBailey]

[PowderedToastMan]

NEVER work on NOT DOING SOMETHING...

You post some good stuff mik, but this is complete nonsense. For sports psychology, your sentiment is accurate. However, we are talking swing changes.

 

Let me alter the semantics to fit your statement. Instead of “don’t move your head forward”, I’ll say “keep your head here”. Is that better? Even though this particular scenario, the OP needs to understand why he can’t move his head forward like that and have shaft lean.

 

Your positive post probably created doubt, which is the funny thing. OP is getting some good stuff in that second page, stuff you probably agree with, but then add your post which creates doubt, all because someone said “don’t”. Maybe expand a bit and add a thought the OP can use that doesn’t include “don’t”.

[moehogan]

Head and upper body just as far forward in both pics ... amount of arm travel is different.

 

 

[djamhour]

Take a friend with you to the range. Let that friend use one of your golf clubs.

-Get in your setup with some side tilt. Now have your friend stand behind you and use that club to check if your shoulder alignment is parallel to your target.

-Now have your friend stand in front of you, standing a few feet away from you and reaching out with the grip of the club, and resting it on the left side of your head

-Now make golf swings, not letting your head hit that shaft until after impact (or not at all).

 

It’s going to take a lot of hard work. It’s going to feel awful. You’ll hit a lot of fat shots for a while. But stick with it and you’ll play the best golf of your life.

 

Edit: If you don’t see results in a few weeks, come back and we will recommend a good pro in your area to help you out.

 

Thanks a lot for the detailed responses. As far as the spine tilt, is it more of the whole spine leaning right by shifting my pelvis left a bit or just lowering the right shoulder some? I always understood pelvis should be in the middle of your feet. I’m planning on having something rigged to where I don’t need anyone there like a shaft coming out of my bag with a headcover or something, you mentioned not letting head hit shaft until after impact or at all? Is that possible without a reverse C finish? Thanks alot

[mikpga]

Honestly, I just took a quick glimpse at the OP, and did not look at any of the responses...

 

What caught my attention, was his/her statement that he/she is not trying to cast...

 

The intent of my response was to NOT focus on the "problem", rather to identify what needs to be the focus...

 

No different than a golfer telling him/herself not to hit it in the water, focus on where you want the ball to go...

 

Just offering a "mental" perspective if you will, not a "swing fix" perspective...

 

Feel free to criticize as necessary...

[PowderedToastMan]

Head and upper body just as far forward in both pics ... amount of arm travel is different.

 

 

What’s your point? Move the real swing a few frames forward and you’ll see he’s scooping at it even more. He’s already adding loft in the still you posted. He’s not magically going to have shaft lean in a few frames, because that’s impossible.

 

I swear I’ve seen people posting completely irrelevant side by side pictures a larger than normal amount lately on this site. I have no idea what you’re even trying to demonstrate with this graphic. The only thing I’m jealous of is your ability to create such a graphic.

[PowderedToastMan]

Take a friend with you to the range. Let that friend use one of your golf clubs.

-Get in your setup with some side tilt. Now have your friend stand behind you and use that club to check if your shoulder alignment is parallel to your target.

-Now have your friend stand in front of you, standing a few feet away from you and reaching out with the grip of the club, and resting it on the left side of your head

-Now make golf swings, not letting your head hit that shaft until after impact (or not at all).

 

It’s going to take a lot of hard work. It’s going to feel awful. You’ll hit a lot of fat shots for a while. But stick with it and you’ll play the best golf of your life.

 

Edit: If you don’t see results in a few weeks, come back and we will recommend a good pro in your area to help you out.

 

Thanks a lot for the detailed responses. As far as the spine tilt, is it more of the whole spine leaning right by shifting my pelvis left a bit or just lowering the right shoulder some? I always understood pelvis should be in the middle of your feet. I’m planning on having something rigged to where I don’t need anyone there like a shaft coming out of my bag with a headcover or something, you mentioned not letting head hit shaft until after impact or at all? Is that possible without a reverse C finish? Thanks alot

As far as the finish goes, just allow your body to react once you learn to keep your head back at impact. If it moves forward after, that’s fine. If not, that’s fine too. You won’t necessary have a reverse C but I suppose it’s possible. Plenty of guys on tour who keep the head steady a long time without arching their back. Impact is the important thing.

 

Rigging something up seems excessive, but give it a go if you can figure something out. Just recording yourself feeling like you’re doing the move can work. Then you can watch and see if you’re doing it enough.

 

As for setup, I think feeling like bumping your left hip forward a bit and tilting your spine a bit back is the way to go. That right shoulder needs to drop down at address a bit. Look at some face on views of some of your favourite tour pros at address and see how it compares to yours and what differences you notice.

 

I’m not advocating the move, but visualizing Tiger’s old driver swing might help, when he would move his head away from the target in the backswing, then keep it there in the downswing. He stayed way behind it, creating a slinging motion. In reality, you won’t do this, but it will help you fix your issue.

[moehogan]

Head and upper body just as far forward in both pics ... amount of arm travel is different.

 

 

What's your point? Move the real swing a few frames forward and you'll see he's scooping at it even more. He's already adding loft in the still you posted. He's not magically going to have shaft lean in a few frames, because that's impossible.

 

I swear I've seen people posting completely irrelevant side by side pictures a larger than normal amount lately on this site. I have no idea what you're even trying to demonstrate with this graphic. The only thing I'm jealous of is your ability to create such a graphic.

 

You actually helped make my point even though it went right over your head. It's NOT the DS slide or the forward head position at impact causing the scoop. If the vids would have had a higher fps and I could have matched them exactly, it would have been even more obvious.

 

Look at the head position of each swing relative to the trees in the background or better yet the OP's feet ... almost exactly the same. So how does the practice swing have shaft lean while the real swing produces a scoop when the head positions are identical? See post #12 for the answer.

[PowderedToastMan]

Head and upper body just as far forward in both pics ... amount of arm travel is different.

 

 

What's your point? Move the real swing a few frames forward and you'll see he's scooping at it even more. He's already adding loft in the still you posted. He's not magically going to have shaft lean in a few frames, because that's impossible.

 

I swear I've seen people posting completely irrelevant side by side pictures a larger than normal amount lately on this site. I have no idea what you're even trying to demonstrate with this graphic. The only thing I'm jealous of is your ability to create such a graphic.

 

You actually helped make my point even though it went right over your head. It's NOT the DS slide or the forward head position at impact causing the scoop. If the vids would have had a higher fps and I could have matched them exactly, it would have been even more obvious.

 

Look at the head position of each swing relative to the trees in the background or better yet the OP's feet ... almost exactly the same. So how does the practice swing have shaft lean while the real swing produces a scoop when the head positions are identical? See post #12 for the answer.

I disagree. I think the reason he has shaft lean in the practice swing with the forward head position is because there’s no ball and he can swing however he wants. With the ball, his coordination kicks in and does what it needs to actually hit the ball.

[Golf nerd]

I agree with Moehogan. It s not the movement to the target. One can start so far left and keep the angles.

Would be a very steep angle of attack and not the desired end result.

Op is casting early in transition. Seems to be a hit impulse, maybe also grip pressure at the top is different.

 

 

 

I would suggest to do a drill for couple of days and watch if there is any change happening.

Something like this.

[Lefthook]

If you look closely at the trial swing at impact you will see that OP's right hand is in a very strong grip position. But when you study his grip at address his right hand is in a weak position. The only way this can happen is with a wide open club face at impact.

 

OP, you need a stronger grip to hit the ball with your trial swing.

[GolfChannel]

They are 2 completely different transitions from back-swing to down-swing. In your practice swing, you are allowing your lower body to begin the transition to the down-swing and thus dropping the club inside as it should be. On your real swing, you are beginning the down-swing with the arms and completely out of sequence. You attempt to catch up (cast) but the damage is already done.

[djamhour]

I agree with Moehogan. It s not the movement to the target. One can start so far left and keep the angles.

Would be a very steep angle of attack and not the desired end result.

Op is casting early in transition. Seems to be a hit impulse, maybe also grip pressure at the top is different.

 

 

 

I would suggest to do a drill for couple of days and watch if there is any change happening.

Something like this.

 

I’ve recently found out about my really right grip pressure so I’m still working on that. It could be that still, maybe seeing the ball gives me that hitters impulse too? I don’t know. Golf sucks haha

 

If you look closely at the trial swing at impact you will see that OP's right hand is in a very strong grip position. But when you study his grip at address his right hand is in a weak position. The only way this can happen is with a wide open club face at impact.

 

OP, you need a stronger grip to hit the ball with your trial swing.

 

So simply I wouldn’t have hit the ball with my practice swing because of a weak grip? Could be got a lot of work ahead.

 

They are 2 completely different transitions from back-swing to down-swing. In your practice swing, you are allowing your lower body to begin the transition to the down-swing and thus dropping the club inside as it should be. On your real swing, you are beginning the down-swing with the arms and completely out of sequence. You attempt to catch up (cast) but the damage is already done.

 

What’s crazy is that, Ive literally had the same swing thoughts for both swings just ball there probably changes everything for me. Might be hitters impulse? Ive worked on loosening up my grip pressure recently so that could be it as well.

[GolfChannel]

No worries, I only know because I have been fighting the same issue since coming back to the game in January. I have been trying to hold my top position for just a bit longer to allow my hips to fire and start the downswing and naturally keep the lag and width I created, but I keep starting my lower body and down-swing at the same time which allows me to play well enough, but robbing me of a lot of power and consistency.

[ayan]

What’s crazy is that, Ive literally had the same swing thoughts for both swings just ball there probably changes everything for me. Might be hitters impulse? Ive worked on loosening up my grip pressure recently so that could be it as well.

 

I am most definitely not trying to belittle what anyone else has said, because I believe every response you've received makes a valid point. You've gotten a lot of information about body pieces doing this and doing that. That can surely work, but there is a chance you may end up losing sight of what it is that you're trying to do, what the task at hand is. If you haven't heard about something like "the towel drill," you may want to try that. It's very simple: set up for a small chip, say 20-40 yards with a wedge, and put a towel in line with the ball about 6 inches behind it (i.e., away from the target, to the right of you at set up). I suggest a wedge and a small chip since you will have a very narrow stance (which will help keep your low point fairly fixed), tend to stay connected, have hardly if any weight shift, etc., so not a lot to worry about other than hitting the ball. Chip to the intended target with the intent to strike ball first then ground, which will require you miss the towel. As you can successfully do that, bring the towel a little closer to the back of the ball up until about a clubhead's length away. With the towel this close, you will not get away with brushing the ground behind the ball while still missing the towel. As you do this well, turn back a little farther during the backswing and hit a longer chip, then a pitch, then three quarter shots. I can assure you that until your mind gets it, your body may be able to make all the right moves coming into impact but your hands will probably get twitchy at the last minute and flick at the ball because that's the way your brain is comfortable striking the ball at this time. I believe that unless the intent is right, and we've had a chance to get used to it, every now and then we may be able to hit a perfect shot, but it will be by accident -- just like the case of a pro can mishitting the ball at times is also an accident. If you video yourself successfully doing the chip towel drill, missing the towel and having the ball travel in the air towards the intended target, I can assure you that you will see yourself naturally retaining the wrist angles much more and having some shaft lean at impact. If you own that move, whether ball is in the middle of your stance, back or forward, you will soon find yourself on the other side of this issue (casting).

[TTGolf77]

The hands need to start working up before the clubhead hits the ball. It’s easy to do when there’s no ball to hit but most people’s brains don’t get it when u put a ball in front of them. Then the hands stall because they don’t go up.

 

Setting up with secondary tilt is just a band aid.

[jut111]

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best. I'm with powdered. It's plain as day. Op would miss the ball completely if he put the practice swing in action. Low point too far foward.

[TTGolf77]

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best. I'm with powdered. It's plain as day. Op would miss the ball completely if he put the practice swing in action. Low point too far foward.

 

His low point is below the left shoulder in his practice swing exactly where it’s supposed to be.

[djamhour]

What’s crazy is that, Ive literally had the same swing thoughts for both swings just ball there probably changes everything for me. Might be hitters impulse? Ive worked on loosening up my grip pressure recently so that could be it as well.

 

I am most definitely not trying to belittle what anyone else has said, because I believe every response you've received makes a valid point. You've gotten a lot of information about body pieces doing this and doing that. That can surely work, but there is a chance you may end up losing sight of what it is that you're trying to do, what the task at hand is. If you haven't heard about something like "the towel drill," you may want to try that. It's very simple: set up for a small chip, say 20-40 yards with a wedge, and put a towel in line with the ball about 6 inches behind it (i.e., away from the target, to the right of you at set up). I suggest a wedge and a small chip since you will have a very narrow stance (which will help keep your low point fairly fixed), tend to stay connected, have hardly if any weight shift, etc., so not a lot to worry about other than hitting the ball. Chip to the intended target with the intent to strike ball first then ground, which will require you miss the towel. As you can successfully do that, bring the towel a little closer to the back of the ball up until about a clubhead's length away. With the towel this close, you will not get away with brushing the ground behind the ball while still missing the towel. As you do this well, turn back a little farther during the backswing and hit a longer chip, then a pitch, then three quarter shots. I can assure you that until your mind gets it, your body may be able to make all the right moves coming into impact but your hands will probably get twitchy at the last minute and flick at the ball because that's the way your brain is comfortable striking the ball at this time. I believe that unless the intent is right, and we've had a chance to get used to it, every now and then we may be able to hit a perfect shot, but it will be by accident -- just like the case of a pro can mishitting the ball at times is also an accident. If you video yourself successfully doing the chip towel drill, missing the towel and having the ball travel in the air towards the intended target, I can assure you that you will see yourself naturally retaining the wrist angles much more and having some shaft lean at impact. If you own that move, whether ball is in the middle of your stance, back or forward, you will soon find yourself on the other side of this issue (casting).

 

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I’ve heard of that drill but never tried it. I feel like can miss the towel and still hit the ball while casting through impactt. . I’ll take a few videos today at the range of working on some new swing thoughts

[NikeGolferTX]

 

You can thank me later.

[PowderedToastMan]

OP, in case you are getting confused, there are different ways to resolve your issue. There are thousands of great teachers out there who use different drills and different terminology to achieve the same result.

 

Pick one method on this thread that makes sense to you, and keep working on it. The ultimate goal is an impact position with the head back, hands forward, and some shaft lean. Do whatever sounds the best to get there.

 

If you can’t do it on your own, I’d recommend Dan Carraher for your particular swing. Get one online lesson and he’ll have you doing the right drills to keep you going for a couple months.

[djamhour]

 

You can thank me later.

 

I know all about GG, I’ve watched pretty much every video on YouTube. I was actually working on his pivot the last couple weeks but it’s a completely different move than I’m used to so I need a lot of work.

 

OP, in case you are getting confused, there are different ways to resolve your issue. There are thousands of great teachers out there who use different drills and different terminology to achieve the same result.

 

Pick one method on this thread that makes sense to you, and keep working on it. The ultimate goal is an impact position with the head back, hands forward, and some shaft lean. Do whatever sounds the best to get there.

 

If you can’t do it on your own, I’d recommend Dan Carraher for your particular swing. Get one online lesson and he’ll have you doing the right drills to keep you going for a couple months.

 

Thanks, I understand what everyone saying. It’s actually about trying out what works. I’ve tried getting a lesson a while back before but He wasn’t trying to fix my problem but give me bandaids and telling me aim way left so I can play my slice and things like that. I paid for 2 lessons upfront because some local guy told me about him and he was good and what not. I didn’t even go back for my 2nd lesson.. so I’d have to do a lot of research on someone and feel comfortable he’s not just there to tell me like fix my posture one lesson. Another lesson fix my takeaway, I’m a college student that’s not working st the moment but too addicted with golf to stop practicing.

[djamhour]

UPDATED SWINGS, only swing thought is head stays back in downswing. Still have the same issues. Took a DTL as well

 

Face On swing with only thought is Head Back at impact

http://youtube.com/watch?v=js1V793QjOU

 

DTL swing with only thought is head back as well

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IZ1I0jOjAzI

 

 

I know I’m extremely steep, OTT and have a very long backswing. Willing to try out some recommendations. Before I originally posted I was working on my pivot (GG’s method) and shortening backswing. I have been trying to work on that ever since I’ve seen Montes casting video ,which made me also aware of my grip pressure in my right hand especially

[Socrates]

Look at where your hips are (rotation-ally) at impact and then go look at a video of a tour player to see the difference. Your hips have stopped rotating before impact and now all you can do is flip it. Setup is better and so is the takeaway.

 

Edit: Now you're stylin' ;)

[golfie1]

Club face wide open on DS. strengthen grip a tad. You need the motorcycle grip twist move from the top all the way to impact.

[davep043]

Look at where your hips are (rotation-ally) at impact and then go look at a video of a tour player to see the difference. Your hips have stopped rotating before impact and now all you can do is flip it. Setup is better and so is the takeaway.

 

Edit: Now you're stylin' ;)

This is what I see, if the hips stall, you almost have to flip the club. Others can help with drills and feels too, but your lower body needs to continue rotating, the hips should be 30 to 40 degrees open by the time you contact the ball. During the forward swing the left leg extends slightly, left hip moves vertically up and away from the target line. Personally, I do slow drills doing exactly that, concentrating on the hips, while not releasing the club at all, but feeling the hands kind of follow the left hip around and up. I progress to short swings at a ball, still concentrating on rotation, still not releasing the wrist set.

[dap]

Not enough hip turn at the top of the backswing. Right hip needs to get deeper. This is especially crucial if you tend to come OTT. A deeper right hip gives your right elbow and arm more room to swing from the inside.

 

Greg Norman's RPB swing thought is a good one. Stands for right pocket back. A good deep hip turn is not natural and needs work sometimes.

[moehogan]

Right shoulder problem confirmed with DTL vid. It is being internally rotated instead of externally rotated early in the DS. Result is a steep shaft that wants to tumble early so you're forced to stall and try to steer the clubhead to the ball, resulting in the scoop.