512 yard eagle stirred up some anger

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm down to 9.0 with my handicap and it's in part bc I'm making better choices. I can hit the long approaches but a higher percentage shot is laying up to a friendly number you like and locking in that par.

 

Let's pretend I make every three out of four approaches by going for it. Par two and birdie one. On the fourth one I hook it long and left and need to drop. Now I'm hitting 4 from someplace where making a 5 is unlikely and 6 is probable and possibly a 7.

 

My confidence in laying up and making 4 pars on the par fives is higher by laying up than going for it. To each their own.

 

Yeah, the proper strategy is to hit the longest shot that doesn't bring trouble into play. Water, OB, sand.

 

I'm not advocating for going at the flag when a miss long left brings a penalty into play.

 

I'm advocating for not slipping into the "lay up to a comfortable number" mentality. There is a whole swath of ground between 100 yards and the pin. Fire away to 20, 30, 40 yards out. I believe I mentioned this above.

 

I find it extremely hard to understand why people would prefer a 100 yard full wedge over a 20 to 30 yard pitch, even from the rough.

 

Someone mentioned sand and mounds. Ok, leave it short of the sand or mounds and pitch up on.

 

Maybe people just have otherworldly skill with their wedges. I mean, I'm more than proficient with my wedges, but I'll take the pitch on every time. And you suck at pitching, practice pitching. Don't use the lay up bandaid.

 

Young, I don't direct all this at you. I like your posts. It's more of a Royal "you."

I think being deadly with wedges from 100 yards-ish is something only really good players can do by and large. There are exceptions sure, but most mid-cappers are going to get up and down more often from 20 or 30 yards than they are from 100. Now that doesn’t account for going for the green and finding yourself in trouble because of a wayward wood, hybrid or long iron. It really is all about course management. I disagree with any philosophy that says “I lay up always” or “I go for it in two always”. That’s where course management and knowing your own game factor in to scoring IMO.

 

Uh oh, Clint you said the magic words, "knowing your game". That phrase is like the Bat Signal for PSG to come in and tell people they really don't know their own game!

 

I think what a lot of people also realize is that, while they won't have near as many birdie looks, or the ones they have won't be as close, but by laying up they are dramatically reducing the chances of bogey or worse.

 

Rawdog, the hole I had mentioned in my post (mounds and stuff) also has heavy trees left and right, just out past the mounds. So if I miss that approach in the mounds, yes I'll likely still make my parr. But if I miss that shot another 15' (which isn't hard to do from 200+ yards) I'm going to struggle to save that par.

[ClintDagger]

I'm down to 9.0 with my handicap and it's in part bc I'm making better choices. I can hit the long approaches but a higher percentage shot is laying up to a friendly number you like and locking in that par.

 

Let's pretend I make every three out of four approaches by going for it. Par two and birdie one. On the fourth one I hook it long and left and need to drop. Now I'm hitting 4 from someplace where making a 5 is unlikely and 6 is probable and possibly a 7.

 

My confidence in laying up and making 4 pars on the par fives is higher by laying up than going for it. To each their own.

 

Yeah, the proper strategy is to hit the longest shot that doesn't bring trouble into play. Water, OB, sand.

 

I'm not advocating for going at the flag when a miss long left brings a penalty into play.

 

I'm advocating for not slipping into the "lay up to a comfortable number" mentality. There is a whole swath of ground between 100 yards and the pin. Fire away to 20, 30, 40 yards out. I believe I mentioned this above.

 

I find it extremely hard to understand why people would prefer a 100 yard full wedge over a 20 to 30 yard pitch, even from the rough.

 

Someone mentioned sand and mounds. Ok, leave it short of the sand or mounds and pitch up on.

 

Maybe people just have otherworldly skill with their wedges. I mean, I'm more than proficient with my wedges, but I'll take the pitch on every time. And you suck at pitching, practice pitching. Don't use the lay up bandaid.

 

Young, I don't direct all this at you. I like your posts. It's more of a Royal "you."

I think being deadly with wedges from 100 yards-ish is something only really good players can do by and large. There are exceptions sure, but most mid-cappers are going to get up and down more often from 20 or 30 yards than they are from 100. Now that doesn’t account for going for the green and finding yourself in trouble because of a wayward wood, hybrid or long iron. It really is all about course management. I disagree with any philosophy that says “I lay up always” or “I go for it in two always”. That’s where course management and knowing your own game factor in to scoring IMO.

 

Uh oh, Clint you said the magic words, "knowing your game". That phrase is like the Bat Signal for PSG to come in and tell people they really don't know their own game!��

 

I think what a lot of people also realize is that, while they won't have near as many birdie looks, or the ones they have won't be as close, but by laying up they are dramatically reducing the chances of bogey or worse.

 

Rawdog, the hole I had mentioned in my post (mounds and stuff) also has heavy trees left and right, just out past the mounds. So if I miss that approach in the mounds, yes I'll likely still make my parr. But if I miss that shot another 15' (which isn't hard to do from 200+ yards) I'm going to struggle to save that par.

Oh I totally agree with you. When in doubt playing conservative is probably smart for most golfers to a certain skill level. That includes me as a 4 HC but when I was around scratch in college I was plagued with playing conservative. So I certainly don’t want to give the impression that I’m out there playing like Seve every day. Even at my best I tried to make putts dead weight because I wanted to lock in par and I was eventually told by my golf coach that I was the definition of “afraid to go low”. Looking back I know what he meant.

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm down to 9.0 with my handicap and it's in part bc I'm making better choices. I can hit the long approaches but a higher percentage shot is laying up to a friendly number you like and locking in that par.

 

Let's pretend I make every three out of four approaches by going for it. Par two and birdie one. On the fourth one I hook it long and left and need to drop. Now I'm hitting 4 from someplace where making a 5 is unlikely and 6 is probable and possibly a 7.

 

My confidence in laying up and making 4 pars on the par fives is higher by laying up than going for it. To each their own.

 

Yeah, the proper strategy is to hit the longest shot that doesn't bring trouble into play. Water, OB, sand.

 

I'm not advocating for going at the flag when a miss long left brings a penalty into play.

 

I'm advocating for not slipping into the "lay up to a comfortable number" mentality. There is a whole swath of ground between 100 yards and the pin. Fire away to 20, 30, 40 yards out. I believe I mentioned this above.

 

I find it extremely hard to understand why people would prefer a 100 yard full wedge over a 20 to 30 yard pitch, even from the rough.

 

Someone mentioned sand and mounds. Ok, leave it short of the sand or mounds and pitch up on.

 

Maybe people just have otherworldly skill with their wedges. I mean, I'm more than proficient with my wedges, but I'll take the pitch on every time. And you suck at pitching, practice pitching. Don't use the lay up bandaid.

 

Young, I don't direct all this at you. I like your posts. It's more of a Royal "you."

I think being deadly with wedges from 100 yards-ish is something only really good players can do by and large. There are exceptions sure, but most mid-cappers are going to get up and down more often from 20 or 30 yards than they are from 100. Now that doesn’t account for going for the green and finding yourself in trouble because of a wayward wood, hybrid or long iron. It really is all about course management. I disagree with any philosophy that says “I lay up always” or “I go for it in two always”. That’s where course management and knowing your own game factor in to scoring IMO.

 

Uh oh, Clint you said the magic words, "knowing your game". That phrase is like the Bat Signal for PSG to come in and tell people they really don't know their own game!��

 

I think what a lot of people also realize is that, while they won't have near as many birdie looks, or the ones they have won't be as close, but by laying up they are dramatically reducing the chances of bogey or worse.

 

Rawdog, the hole I had mentioned in my post (mounds and stuff) also has heavy trees left and right, just out past the mounds. So if I miss that approach in the mounds, yes I'll likely still make my parr. But if I miss that shot another 15' (which isn't hard to do from 200+ yards) I'm going to struggle to save that par.

Oh I totally agree with you. When in doubt playing conservative is probably smart for most golfers to a certain skill level. That includes me as a 4 HC but when I was around scratch in college I was plagued with playing conservative. So I certainly don’t want to give the impression that I’m out there playing like Seve every day. Even at my best I tried to make putts dead weight because I wanted to lock in par and I was eventually told by my golf coach that I was the definition of “afraid to go low”. Looking back I know what he meant.

 

A perfect example of what you said earlier about knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. Hence knowing your game. And also knowing your game on any given day. It is interesting to notice how most people tend to be either very conservative or very daring with their game.

 

 

[JohnnyCashForever]

How would you have responded if you were in the foursome putting out?

 

 

I suspect that it would depend on how I was playing that day.

 

Extremely bad day = "You almost killed all of us! I don't know how I can go on playing under these conditions! Thanks for ruining my life! Where's the beer cart?!?"

 

Good day = "Wow, that was one heck of shot."

[rawdog]

A perfect example of what you said earlier about knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. Hence knowing your game. And also knowing your game on any given day. It is interesting to notice how most people tend to be either very conservative or very daring with their game.

 

What he said makes me think that at the time, he did not realize he was playing too conservatively. Hence why once he realized that, he changed.

 

So how well did he know his game at the time? I don't say it in as blunt of a way, but in general, I don't think people know their games as well as they think they do.

[rawdog]

I'm down to 9.0 with my handicap and it's in part bc I'm making better choices. I can hit the long approaches but a higher percentage shot is laying up to a friendly number you like and locking in that par.

 

Let's pretend I make every three out of four approaches by going for it. Par two and birdie one. On the fourth one I hook it long and left and need to drop. Now I'm hitting 4 from someplace where making a 5 is unlikely and 6 is probable and possibly a 7.

 

My confidence in laying up and making 4 pars on the par fives is higher by laying up than going for it. To each their own.

 

Yeah, the proper strategy is to hit the longest shot that doesn't bring trouble into play. Water, OB, sand.

 

I'm not advocating for going at the flag when a miss long left brings a penalty into play.

 

I'm advocating for not slipping into the "lay up to a comfortable number" mentality. There is a whole swath of ground between 100 yards and the pin. Fire away to 20, 30, 40 yards out. I believe I mentioned this above.

 

I find it extremely hard to understand why people would prefer a 100 yard full wedge over a 20 to 30 yard pitch, even from the rough.

 

Someone mentioned sand and mounds. Ok, leave it short of the sand or mounds and pitch up on.

 

Maybe people just have otherworldly skill with their wedges. I mean, I'm more than proficient with my wedges, but I'll take the pitch on every time. And you suck at pitching, practice pitching. Don't use the lay up bandaid.

 

Young, I don't direct all this at you. I like your posts. It's more of a Royal "you."

I think being deadly with wedges from 100 yards-ish is something only really good players can do by and large. There are exceptions sure, but most mid-cappers are going to get up and down more often from 20 or 30 yards than they are from 100. Now that doesn’t account for going for the green and finding yourself in trouble because of a wayward wood, hybrid or long iron. It really is all about course management. I disagree with any philosophy that says “I lay up always” or “I go for it in two always”. That’s where course management and knowing your own game factor in to scoring IMO.

 

Uh oh, Clint you said the magic words, "knowing your game". That phrase is like the Bat Signal for PSG to come in and tell people they really don't know their own game!��

 

I think what a lot of people also realize is that, while they won't have near as many birdie looks, or the ones they have won't be as close, but by laying up they are dramatically reducing the chances of bogey or worse.

 

Rawdog, the hole I had mentioned in my post (mounds and stuff) also has heavy trees left and right, just out past the mounds. So if I miss that approach in the mounds, yes I'll likely still make my parr. But if I miss that shot another 15' (which isn't hard to do from 200+ yards) I'm going to struggle to save that par.

 

My general opinion is people are too risk averse. It's been shown over and over in behavioral economic studies.

 

If we are trying to avoid bogey, by all means, lay up. If we are trying to shoot our best score over time, it's usually not laying up.

 

Even in your example, say your green is even (conservatively) 20 yards wide. Then you have another, say, 10 yards of mounds on either side. Then 5 yards of buffer til the woods. So you have a clearing that is 50 yards wide where you can land a ball.

 

Decide on the longest club you know you can hit a 50 yard window and swing away. It doesn't have to be the pin. That's my point.

 

Even slightly proficient players can pick a shot shape (let's say fade), aim up the left side of the mounds, and have 40ish yards of width to land the ball. Laying up to 100 yards is stupid in this situation. You hit it as far as you can without bringing hazards into play. And in this case the hazard is the trees.

[deadsolid...shank]

A perfect example of what you said earlier about knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. Hence knowing your game. And also knowing your game on any given day. It is interesting to notice how most people tend to be either very conservative or very daring with their game.

 

What he said makes me think that at the time, he did not realize he was playing too conservatively. Hence why once he realized that, he changed.

 

So how well did he know his game at the time? I don't say it in as blunt of a way, but in general, I don't think people know their games as well as they think they do.

 

Interesting take on it Rawdog. I guess I interpret “knowing my game” in a different manner. When I think of my game I do so in the physical sense. What shots I can or cannot pull off. Can I make that carry, etc.

 

Conservative/Agressive to me is more of a mindset. Or a strategy if you will But I can also certainly see where the tie in could come from and where a person could extrapolate a general “style” of play into a knowledge of their game.

 

But the whole issue is still a huge wormhole that we’re never going to agree on. I give credit to people who have played a long time and can make at least somewhat objective observations about their own game. Even though PSG will quote Broadie till he wears out the keyboard and tell me that I am not “special”, I’ll still tell him that I don’t care how many people Broadie studied, until he knows what is going through my mind as I prepare forand play a shot, NO ONE knows my game better than myself.

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm down to 9.0 with my handicap and it's in part bc I'm making better choices. I can hit the long approaches but a higher percentage shot is laying up to a friendly number you like and locking in that par.

 

Let's pretend I make every three out of four approaches by going for it. Par two and birdie one. On the fourth one I hook it long and left and need to drop. Now I'm hitting 4 from someplace where making a 5 is unlikely and 6 is probable and possibly a 7.

 

My confidence in laying up and making 4 pars on the par fives is higher by laying up than going for it. To each their own.

 

Yeah, the proper strategy is to hit the longest shot that doesn't bring trouble into play. Water, OB, sand.

 

I'm not advocating for going at the flag when a miss long left brings a penalty into play.

 

I'm advocating for not slipping into the "lay up to a comfortable number" mentality. There is a whole swath of ground between 100 yards and the pin. Fire away to 20, 30, 40 yards out. I believe I mentioned this above.

 

I find it extremely hard to understand why people would prefer a 100 yard full wedge over a 20 to 30 yard pitch, even from the rough.

 

Someone mentioned sand and mounds. Ok, leave it short of the sand or mounds and pitch up on.

 

Maybe people just have otherworldly skill with their wedges. I mean, I'm more than proficient with my wedges, but I'll take the pitch on every time. And you suck at pitching, practice pitching. Don't use the lay up bandaid.

 

Young, I don't direct all this at you. I like your posts. It's more of a Royal "you."

I think being deadly with wedges from 100 yards-ish is something only really good players can do by and large. There are exceptions sure, but most mid-cappers are going to get up and down more often from 20 or 30 yards than they are from 100. Now that doesn’t account for going for the green and finding yourself in trouble because of a wayward wood, hybrid or long iron. It really is all about course management. I disagree with any philosophy that says “I lay up always” or “I go for it in two always”. That’s where course management and knowing your own game factor in to scoring IMO.

 

Uh oh, Clint you said the magic words, "knowing your game". That phrase is like the Bat Signal for PSG to come in and tell people they really don't know their own game!��

 

I think what a lot of people also realize is that, while they won't have near as many birdie looks, or the ones they have won't be as close, but by laying up they are dramatically reducing the chances of bogey or worse.

 

Rawdog, the hole I had mentioned in my post (mounds and stuff) also has heavy trees left and right, just out past the mounds. So if I miss that approach in the mounds, yes I'll likely still make my parr. But if I miss that shot another 15' (which isn't hard to do from 200+ yards) I'm going to struggle to save that par.

 

My general opinion is people are too risk averse. It's been shown over and over in behavioral economic studies.

 

If we are trying to avoid bogey, by all means, lay up. If we are trying to shoot our best score over time, it's usually not laying up.

 

Even in your example, say your green is even (conservatively) 20 yards wide. Then you have another, say, 10 yards of mounds on either side. Then 5 yards of buffer til the woods. So you have a clearing that is 50 yards wide where you can land a ball.

 

Decide on the longest club you know you can hit a 50 yard window and swing away. It doesn't have to be the pin. That's my point.

 

Even slightly proficient players can pick a shot shape (let's say fade), aim up the left side of the mounds, and have 40ish yards of width to land the ball. Laying up to 100 yards is stupid in this situation. You hit it as far as you can without bringing hazards into play. And in this case the hazard is the trees.

 

I’m sure you have a very legit reason, but I fail to see where and economic study can be equated to a game of golf. I’m sure it’s probably in that risk factor issue, but that is beside the point.

 

This kind of ties in with out other discussion we’re currently having (knowing your own game)

 

 

Here is the green in question. As you can hopefully tell the front part (which is the part I referenced when I brought this up) is nowhere near 20 yards wide. What you can’t see is the mounds on both sides which are in the four to six foot high range, and covered in thick rough. Then the trees out past them. Pin high, more than 20’ wide either side, is trouble.

 

I still go at it almost every time. The allure of the possible eagle is too strong. But I sure have turned a lot of really good drives into bogeys.

[deadsolid...shank]

Good discussion as always though Rawdog.

[rawdog]

A perfect example of what you said earlier about knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. Hence knowing your game. And also knowing your game on any given day. It is interesting to notice how most people tend to be either very conservative or very daring with their game.

 

What he said makes me think that at the time, he did not realize he was playing too conservatively. Hence why once he realized that, he changed.

 

So how well did he know his game at the time? I don't say it in as blunt of a way, but in general, I don't think people know their games as well as they think they do.

 

Interesting take on it Rawdog. I guess I interpret “knowing my game” in a different manner. When I think of my game I do so in the physical sense. What shots I can or cannot pull off. Can I make that carry, etc.

 

Conservative/Agressive to me is more of a mindset. Or a strategy if you will But I can also certainly see where the tie in could come from and where a person could extrapolate a general “style” of play into a knowledge of their game.

 

But the whole issue is still a huge wormhole that we’re never going to agree on. I give credit to people who have played a long time and can make at least somewhat objective observations about their own game. Even though PSG will quote Broadie till he wears out the keyboard and tell me that I am not “special”, I’ll still tell him that I don’t care how many people Broadie studied, until he knows what is going through my mind as I prepare forand play a shot, NO ONE knows my game better than myself.

 

My definition of "knowing my game" is that I'm making decisions that lead to the desired outcome. Like, literally, do I know what the f*** I need to do to achieve the outcome?

 

You have to figure out the desired outcome. On 18 tee, up 2 in a tournament, desired outcome might be to win the tournament. So you can play more conservatively. Am I eliminating risk of a double with the shots I'm choosing?

 

Skins game Wednesday night? My desired outcome is birdies. I may THINK my best shot at birdie is to lay up, when it really isn't. My goal isn't avoid bogey, it's make birdie. If I lay up, I don't know my game because I don't know what I really need to do for the best shot at achieving my goal.

 

I get what you're saying about the physical. You need to know the possible outcomes of a shot before you hit it in order to have an optimal strategy.

 

But, to me, knowing your game is the ability to take those possible outcomes, process it in your head, and identify the correct strategy depending on your goal.

 

I'm happier knowing I employed the proper strategy but just missed the shot(s) and made par rather than employing the wrong strategy and then falsely congratulating myself for what was a statistically improbable birdie.

 

I might be f***** up in the head, though.

[rawdog]

I'm sure you have a very legit reason, but I fail to see where and economic study can be equated to a game of golf. I'm sure it's probably in that risk factor issue, but that is beside the point.

 

This kind of ties in with out other discussion we're currently having (knowing your own game)

 

 

Here is the green in question. As you can hopefully tell the front part (which is the part I referenced when I brought this up) is nowhere near 20 yards wide. What you can't see is the mounds on both sides which are in the four to six foot high range, and covered in thick rough. Then the trees out past them. Pin high, more than 20' wide either side, is trouble.

 

I still go at it almost every time. The allure of the possible eagle is too strong. But I sure have turned a lot of really good drives into bogeys.

 

What hole is this? I want to Google Earth it.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include one of my favorite studies of all time! 1.6 million putts studied... :D Good quotes by Goydos at the end.

 

PGA Tour pros even admit they are loss adverse and using a sub-optimal strategy.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/sports/golf/16study.html

 

"Even the world’s best pros are so consumed with avoiding bogeys that they make putts for birdie discernibly less often than identical-length putts for par, according to a coming paper by two professors at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. After analyzing laser-precise data on more than 1.6 million Tour putts, they estimated that this preference for avoiding a negative (bogey) more than gaining an equal positive (birdie) — known in economics as loss aversion — costs the average pro about one stroke per 72-hole tournament, and the top 20 golfers about $1.2 million in prize money a year.

 

Contrary to most academic studies involving sports, at which athletes typically scoff, a handful of the tour’s top putters did not dispute this finding. Simply put — if not putt — they admitted to being spooked enough by bogeys that they will ultimately cost themselves strokes to avoid them. Call it the bogeyman."

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm sure you have a very legit reason, but I fail to see where and economic study can be equated to a game of golf. I'm sure it's probably in that risk factor issue, but that is beside the point.

 

This kind of ties in with out other discussion we're currently having (knowing your own game)

 

 

Here is the green in question. As you can hopefully tell the front part (which is the part I referenced when I brought this up) is nowhere near 20 yards wide. What you can't see is the mounds on both sides which are in the four to six foot high range, and covered in thick rough. Then the trees out past them. Pin high, more than 20' wide either side, is trouble.

 

I still go at it almost every time. The allure of the possible eagle is too strong. But I sure have turned a lot of really good drives into bogeys.

 

What hole is this? I want to Google Earth it.

 

 

I'll message you.

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm sure you have a very legit reason, but I fail to see where and economic study can be equated to a game of golf. I'm sure it's probably in that risk factor issue, but that is beside the point.

 

This kind of ties in with out other discussion we're currently having (knowing your own game)

 

 

Here is the green in question. As you can hopefully tell the front part (which is the part I referenced when I brought this up) is nowhere near 20 yards wide. What you can't see is the mounds on both sides which are in the four to six foot high range, and covered in thick rough. Then the trees out past them. Pin high, more than 20' wide either side, is trouble.

 

I still go at it almost every time. The allure of the possible eagle is too strong. But I sure have turned a lot of really good drives into bogeys.

 

What hole is this? I want to Google Earth it.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include one of my favorite studies of all time! 1.6 million putts studied... :D Good quotes by Goydos at the end.

 

PGA Tour pros even admit they are loss adverse and using a sub-optimal strategy.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/sports/golf/16study.html

 

"Even the world’s best pros are so consumed with avoiding bogeys that they make putts for birdie discernibly less often than identical-length putts for par, according to a coming paper by two professors at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. After analyzing laser-precise data on more than 1.6 million Tour putts, they estimated that this preference for avoiding a negative (bogey) more than gaining an equal positive (birdie) — known in economics as loss aversion — costs the average pro about one stroke per 72-hole tournament, and the top 20 golfers about $1.2 million in prize money a year.

 

Contrary to most academic studies involving sports, at which athletes typically scoff, a handful of the tour’s top putters did not dispute this finding. Simply put — if not putt — they admitted to being spooked enough by bogeys that they will ultimately cost themselves strokes to avoid them. Call it the bogeyman."

 

I think everyone who has played for any length of time could have told that.

[rawdog]

I'm sure you have a very legit reason, but I fail to see where and economic study can be equated to a game of golf. I'm sure it's probably in that risk factor issue, but that is beside the point.

 

This kind of ties in with out other discussion we're currently having (knowing your own game)

 

 

Here is the green in question. As you can hopefully tell the front part (which is the part I referenced when I brought this up) is nowhere near 20 yards wide. What you can't see is the mounds on both sides which are in the four to six foot high range, and covered in thick rough. Then the trees out past them. Pin high, more than 20' wide either side, is trouble.

 

I still go at it almost every time. The allure of the possible eagle is too strong. But I sure have turned a lot of really good drives into bogeys.

 

What hole is this? I want to Google Earth it.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include one of my favorite studies of all time! 1.6 million putts studied... :D Good quotes by Goydos at the end.

 

PGA Tour pros even admit they are loss adverse and using a sub-optimal strategy.

 

https://www.nytimes....lf/16study.html

 

"Even the world’s best pros are so consumed with avoiding bogeys that they make putts for birdie discernibly less often than identical-length putts for par, according to a coming paper by two professors at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. After analyzing laser-precise data on more than 1.6 million Tour putts, they estimated that this preference for avoiding a negative (bogey) more than gaining an equal positive (birdie) — known in economics as loss aversion — costs the average pro about one stroke per 72-hole tournament, and the top 20 golfers about $1.2 million in prize money a year.

 

Contrary to most academic studies involving sports, at which athletes typically scoff, a handful of the tour’s top putters did not dispute this finding. Simply put — if not putt — they admitted to being spooked enough by bogeys that they will ultimately cost themselves strokes to avoid them. Call it the bogeyman."

 

I think everyone who has played for any length of time could have told that.

 

They could've expressed, in dollars, how much money players are willing to leave on the table because they are "afraid to make a bogey?"

 

I know what you mean, but one could also make an opposite inference and say there is less pressure on a birdie putt so the make rate should be higher. But, no, instead, the opposite is true.

 

Anyway, the point remains... did these guys know their games? They are the best in the world after all. Of all people, they should. So, either they are knowingly leaving money on the table or they don't know they're using the wrong strategy. Either way, to me, that's fascinating.

 

Sorry to derail the thread.

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm sure you have a very legit reason, but I fail to see where and economic study can be equated to a game of golf. I'm sure it's probably in that risk factor issue, but that is beside the point.

 

This kind of ties in with out other discussion we're currently having (knowing your own game)

 

 

Here is the green in question. As you can hopefully tell the front part (which is the part I referenced when I brought this up) is nowhere near 20 yards wide. What you can't see is the mounds on both sides which are in the four to six foot high range, and covered in thick rough. Then the trees out past them. Pin high, more than 20' wide either side, is trouble.

 

I still go at it almost every time. The allure of the possible eagle is too strong. But I sure have turned a lot of really good drives into bogeys.

 

What hole is this? I want to Google Earth it.

 

EDIT: Forgot to include one of my favorite studies of all time! 1.6 million putts studied... :D Good quotes by Goydos at the end.

 

PGA Tour pros even admit they are loss adverse and using a sub-optimal strategy.

 

https://www.nytimes....lf/16study.html

 

"Even the world’s best pros are so consumed with avoiding bogeys that they make putts for birdie discernibly less often than identical-length putts for par, according to a coming paper by two professors at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. After analyzing laser-precise data on more than 1.6 million Tour putts, they estimated that this preference for avoiding a negative (bogey) more than gaining an equal positive (birdie) — known in economics as loss aversion — costs the average pro about one stroke per 72-hole tournament, and the top 20 golfers about $1.2 million in prize money a year.

 

Contrary to most academic studies involving sports, at which athletes typically scoff, a handful of the tour’s top putters did not dispute this finding. Simply put — if not putt — they admitted to being spooked enough by bogeys that they will ultimately cost themselves strokes to avoid them. Call it the bogeyman."

 

I think everyone who has played for any length of time could have told that.

 

They could've expressed, in dollars, how much money players are willing to leave on the table because they are "afraid to make a bogey?"

 

I know what you mean, but one could also make an opposite inference and say there is less pressure on a birdie putt so the make rate should be higher. But, no, instead, the opposite is true.

 

Anyway, the point remains... did these guys know their games? They are the best in the world after all. Of all people, they should. So, either they are knowingly leaving money on the table or they don't know they're using the wrong strategy. Either way, to me, that's fascinating.

 

Sorry to derail the thread.

 

They do know their own games. But even though they know that, it still happens. That’s the human factor. The intangibles. The gray areas in the statistical black and white world!

[wkuo3]

You had gotten "close" more than once, so what do you think ? It's like those idiots riding the bumpers in front of them going over 60 MPH in traffic. They'll get what's coming to them, just stay the hack away from me when it happens.

 

If someone hit into the green we're still putting and this was not the first time the golf ball had been getting too close...... I had picked up a ProV that flew pass my partners head on a short par 5 and stared back at the guy in the fairway then toss it into the water hazard next to the green. Go have your eagle putt from the hazard if you could find the ball.

[sheppy335]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

[Mikey5e]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

[KAndyMan]

If somebody rolls a ball up short of a green im on from 250+ out i dont usually care. At that distance most the velocity is gone and isnt much of a danger. Sometimes the ground is hard and ball will bounce/roll 50 yards or more. Ive seen them ricochet off cart paths and even couple times a sprinkler head ending up by the green. We have all hit a shot or two and upon ball hitting the ground it takes a MASSIVE bounce that wasnt anticipated. Sounds like dude man was bitter/jealous it took him 4 shots to get where your 2nd ended up.

[ClintDagger]

If somebody rolls a ball up short of a green im on from 250+ out i dont usually care. At that distance most the velocity is gone and isnt much of a danger. Sometimes the ground is hard and ball will bounce/roll 50 yards or more. Ive seen them ricochet off cart paths and even couple times a sprinkler head ending up by the green. We have all hit a shot or two and upon ball hitting the ground it takes a MASSIVE bounce that wasnt anticipated. Sounds like dude man was bitter/jealous it took him 4 shots to get where your 2nd ended up.

Well, maybe he’s jealous but like I said in an earlier post some guys have taken balls to the head on the fly and are understandably sensitive to being hit into especially if it’s happening a 2nd time or more in a round. I honestly get it if that’s the case. In a HS tourney I was walking down the fairway with 2 opponents and we’re just chatting and you hear this “whoosh” and the guy to my right took one on the head from the group behind and it was nasty. If that happened to me I’m sure it would stick with me.

[Hawkeye77]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

[Mikey5e]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

Well, the info that was given was an estimate due to a few factors.

1) trees obscured the view of the green.

2) my distance vision isn't very good.

3) ground was dry and provided a lot of roll.

With those issues, it was difficult to see exactly where the ball landed and how far it rolled. My estimate would be that the ball landed 50 to 100 yards before the green and trickled on up to 10 ft pass the hole. There is no BS going on, that's exactly how it happened, it was a fantastic eagle, but at the same time it rolled into the group that was putting ever so gently. I don't realize how this could be difficult to understand? It's the plain truth.

[KAndyMan]

If somebody rolls a ball up short of a green im on from 250+ out i dont usually care. At that distance most the velocity is gone and isnt much of a danger. Sometimes the ground is hard and ball will bounce/roll 50 yards or more. Ive seen them ricochet off cart paths and even couple times a sprinkler head ending up by the green. We have all hit a shot or two and upon ball hitting the ground it takes a MASSIVE bounce that wasnt anticipated. Sounds like dude man was bitter/jealous it took him 4 shots to get where your 2nd ended up.

Well, maybe hes jealous but like I said in an earlier post some guys have taken balls to the head on the fly and are understandably sensitive to being hit into especially if its happening a 2nd time or more in a round. I honestly get it if thats the case. In a HS tourney I was walking down the fairway with 2 opponents and were just chatting and you hear this whoosh and the guy to my right took one on the head from the group behind and it was nasty. If that happened to me Im sure it would stick with me.

 

Ohh if its flying i agree. Heck if a ball comes flying near me and its more than obvious the person who hit it knew it was headed my way and didnt yell fore. Not proud to admit it but i have walked up to a ball in that situation and hit it into the woods for them. Hopefully the guy you were playing with in HS was ok and didnt have any permanent damage. I got hit square in the back from a guys tee shot on a parallel hole. “Luckily” the ball ricocheted off a tree before it hit me. Still dropped me like sack of hammers instantly and was sore for a few days. I cant imagine taking one to the dome.

[Hack Daddy]

I don’t normally get too worked up (and probably wouldn’t have in this case since the ball rolled up), but you got very close to them earlier. I can understand why he was upset.

 

Once is forgivable, twice it starts to get a little more dicey.

 

That's the only issue with what happened. If it were the first, no harm, no foul. But he did it twice, esp after the guy jumped in his Word not allowed.

 

If it were me, I would have just waited till the green cleared since there was an earlier dispute. Like i always tell my buddy, "you never know, you could absolutely nut one out of the blue."

 

Just let the green clear and keep it pushing.

 

I play with my son, and I do get very agro with him on the course. If its traffic from other holes, not so much an issue. But if you're playing behind us and that ball starts getting in the "wtf" zone, we gonna have some real problems.

[Hawkeye77]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

Well, the info that was given was an estimate due to a few factors.

1) trees obscured the view of the green.

2) my distance vision isn't very good.

3) ground was dry and provided a lot of roll.

With those issues, it was difficult to see exactly where the ball landed and how far it rolled. My estimate would be that the ball landed 50 to 100 yards before the green and trickled on up to 10 ft pass the hole. There is no BS going on, that's exactly how it happened, it was a fantastic eagle, but at the same time it rolled into the group that was putting ever so gently. I don't realize how this could be difficult to understand? It's the plain truth.

 

Fair enough - good 3, btw.

[nsxguy]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

Well, the info that was given was an estimate due to a few factors.

1) trees obscured the view of the green.

2) my distance vision isn't very good.

3) ground was dry and provided a lot of roll.

With those issues, it was difficult to see exactly where the ball landed and how far it rolled. My estimate would be that the ball landed 50 to 100 yards before the green and trickled on up to 10 ft pass the hole. There is no BS going on, that's exactly how it happened, it was a fantastic eagle, but at the same time it rolled into the group that was putting ever so gently. I don't realize how this could be difficult to understand? It's the plain truth.

 

Thanks for the recap.

 

I almost forgot you made an eagle,,,,,,,,,,,,, :rolleyes: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

[RobE]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

 

Now he's trying to say it only rolled 50 to 100 yards, but you're right (unless he was playing on concrete) I call BS too.

Then he tried to say his view of the green was obscured by trees, and he didn't have the common sense to make sure the area short of the green (let alone the green) was clear.

Then he's trying to say his distance vision sucks, but he swears the ball was only barely rolling.

 

And that's the thing my brother in law is always telling me about people and their "stories," he's a court judge, they always skew them so as to not make themselves sound bad and end up sounding really stupid and guilty with all their excuses. When if they'd just own up to their misdeed and shut up they tend to be looked upon more kindly by the jury.

[ramdorsky]

Yeah I wouldnt have been upset about that. Anytime its clearly unintentional there is no reason to be a jerk. Great eagle.

 

Now Mikey my question: was your approach shot hit with your trusty 4 wood? Lol. What degree is yours and model? I dont think a 20* 5 wood is going to work for me.

I have a Callaway XR16 4W that is 17 degree loft. There is a bit of irony in the whole matter in that I have an injured left shoulder that might need surgical repair at the end of the season. As a result I have altered my swing 2 make it easy on the shoulder for no pain, but I gained yardage because of it. My shot shaping was high and straight, which did not produce much roll out on the ball. Now my angle of attack on the golf ball is more level with a slight inside to out swing path causing my ball to launch lower with some draw on it producing large roll outs. No pun intended, but I don't know my own capabilities right now as far as distance. I am actually hitting the ball much farther Now with an injured shoulder than I was before my shoulder was injured. I know it sounds sort of crazy but it's the truth.

Pain is the secret. I get certain pains when I'm swinging poorly. Finding the swing that does the least damage and creates better results is a great feeling.

[Mikey5e]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

 

Now he's trying to say it only rolled 50 to 100 yards, but you're right (unless he was playing on concrete) I call BS too.

Then he tried to say his view of the green was obscured by trees, and he didn't have the common sense to make sure the area short of the green (let alone the green) was clear.

Then he's trying to say his distance vision sucks, but he swears the ball was only barely rolling.

 

And that's the thing my brother in law is always telling me about people and their "stories," he's a court judge, they always skew them so as to not make themselves sound bad and end up sounding really stupid and guilty with all their excuses. When if they'd just own up to their misdeed and shut up they tend to be looked upon more kindly by the jury.

.

Maybe I should go to trial? But hopefully not with your brother-in-law as the judge! If I do I will remember that the jury will be kinder to me if I just tell the flat-out truth then keep my mouth shut, LOL.

Honestly, I feel quite bad about rolling a ball onto the green with the foursome still putting ahead of me, even if it was ever so gently. I know when people hit into me or roll it up on me I don't particularly care for it, although I don't make a court case out of it.?

[nsxguy]

At first mad, then as looking back and seeing you were way back i would change my tune. I would have marked the ball so we could putt and throw it in the woods, Just kidding. I Would then place it back for you so you could make the putt.

 

I would also give you the finger, i mean a wave form the green. no harm no foul

Thanks for the post. Yes, if it came flying in it would be a different story, but the first one rolled up and died 5 yards short of the green and the second one actually rolled onto the green I'm estimating from about a hundred yards out. They would be more of a distraction not a threat. I have re-evaluated my approach on par-fives now. I will probably get flak not from those on the green, but those on the tee waiting behind me.

I know each individual is different, and it is very interesting and sometimes humorous how people have responded to what they would do in this particular situation. Some have said they would get in my face and threaten bodily harm or actually do bodily harm, all the way to those who would say great shot, and everything in between.lol

 

The original post said it landed (not sure when any rolling started after any bouncing) 75 yards from the green.

 

Then the intervening trees that obscured the hole.

 

Now it's 100 yards from the green it rolled up, lol --- and BS.

 

Come on.

 

The threads where folks can't even keep their own written stories straight, well never mind.

 

Now he's trying to say it only rolled 50 to 100 yards, but you're right (unless he was playing on concrete) I call BS too.

Then he tried to say his view of the green was obscured by trees, and he didn't have the common sense to make sure the area short of the green (let alone the green) was clear.

Then he's trying to say his distance vision sucks, but he swears the ball was only barely rolling.

 

And that's the thing my brother in law is always telling me about people and their "stories," he's a court judge, they always skew them so as to not make themselves sound bad and end up sounding really stupid and guilty with all their excuses. When if they'd just own up to their misdeed and shut up they tend to be looked upon more kindly by the jury.

.

Maybe I should go to trial? But hopefully not with your brother-in-law as the judge! If I do I will remember that the jury will be kinder to me if I just tell the flat-out truth then keep my mouth shut, LOL.

Honestly, I feel quite bad about rolling a ball onto the green with the foursome still putting ahead of me, even if it was ever so gently. I know when people hit into me or roll it up on me I don't particularly care for it, although I don't make a court case out of it.��

 

How about when the do it for the 2nd time that day ? Even if it was for an eagle.