Aligning putt with tee

[bknaepen]

Hi all,

 

Let’s assume I mark my ball on the green with the tip of a tee and then lift the ball (the tee is simply layed on the ground).

 

Am I allowed to then move and orient the tee in the direction of the line of putt if I make sure that the tip of the tee remains at exactly the same location (allowing me to replace the ball at it’s exact initial position)?

 

Cheers,

Bernard

[raynorfan1]

You can do whatever you want with the tee, as long as you don't touch the line of putt with it.

 

No need to keep the tip of the tee in the same spot - move it all you want - as long as you can replace the ball correctly.

[rogolf]

You can do whatever you want with the tee, as long as you don't touch the line of putt with it.

 

No need to keep the tip of the tee in the same spot - move it all you want - as long as you can replace the ball correctly.

 

And if he picks the tee up in the process, ie, lifts it off the surface of the green?

[raynorfan1]

Just to clarify; if you mark your ball with the tip of the tee by punching a hole in the green or scratching it with, you can do whatever you want with the tee.

 

If you are using the tee itself as marker, you can't move it (except to pick it up in the process of replacing your ball).

[Newby]

But be sure that any scratch on the surface doesn't indicate the line of putt.

[Augster]

I’m sure this won’t be popular but here goes...

 

If I have the situation correct, the player marks his ball on the Green with a tee laid down. The tip of the tee is where the ball goes. The player then picks up his ball (lifts), and puts it in his pocket. Then he sees the tee isn’t pointing correctly, so he rolls the tee one way or the other being careful to keep the tip in the same place.

 

Is that correct?

 

If so, that’s a penalty of 1-stroke under 20-1 or 18-2. The movement of the mark was not accidental and was not done in the process of marking.

 

In 2019, laying the tee down at all will be a breach of 10-2-2.

[Sawgrass]

I'm sure this won't be popular but here goes...

 

If I have the situation correct, the player marks his ball on the Green with a tee laid down. The tip of the tee is where the ball goes. The player then picks up his ball (lifts), and puts it in his pocket. Then he sees the tee isn't pointing correctly, so he rolls the tee one way or the other being careful to keep the tip in the same place.

 

Is that correct?

 

If so, that's a penalty of 1-stroke under 20-1 or 18-2. The movement of the mark was not accidental and was not done in the process of marking.

 

In 2019, laying the tee down at all will be a breach of 10-2-2.

As you suggest, new 10.2b says:

• 
  The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.
  

But I do not believe this refers to a ball marker, or a ball itself for that matter (both of which are "objects"). If it was meant to encompass balls, one could not use a ball with a line on it which was deliberately oriented to the line of play. And if it was meant to encompass ball markers, many have some printed feature which could be oriented to indicate a line. So I can only presume that these two "alignment aides" remain legal, and a tee used as a marker, pointing out the line of play, would similarly remain legal.

 

In further support of my contention, current Rule 8-2 already uses similar prohibition language, and we know that lined balls are frequently and legally, placed on the green with the intention of showing the player his line of putt.

b. On the Putting Green

 

When the player's ball is on the putting green, the line of putt may be indicated before, but not during, the stroke by the player, his partner or either of their caddies; in doing so the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere for the purpose of indicating a line of putt.

[Augster]

“The player must not set AN OBJECT down”.

 

What makes you believe that doesn’t include ball markers? Is a ball marker “an object”? Does it indicate the line of play? If both are yes, and a tee specifically pointed at the line of play should most certainly be, it has to be illegal in 2019.

 

Unless a ball marker is exempted from “An Object”. A ball marker is equipment. Is a player allowed to put equipment down on the putting green to indicate the line of play? Interpretation 10-2b(3)/1 says a player can’t place a club down to indicate the line of play, and a club is definitely equipment and also “an object”.

 

Since “an object” cannot be placed to indicate the line of play, AND equipment cannot be placed to indicate the line of play, I’d say marking with a tee specifically orientated to show the line of play would be illegal.

[Newby]

Interpretation 10-2b(3)/1 says a player can't place a club down to indicate the line of play,

 

Not quite. Interpretation 10-2b(3)/1 says a player can't place a club down to help the player take a stance.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

As you suggest, new 10.2b says:

• The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.
  

But I do not believe this refers to a ball marker, or a ball itself for that matter (both of which are "objects"). If it was meant to encompass balls, one could not use a ball with a line on it which was deliberately oriented to the line of play. And if it was meant to encompass ball markers, many have some printed feature which could be oriented to indicate a line. So I can only presume that these two "alignment aides" remain legal, and a tee used as a marker, pointing out the line of play, would similarly remain legal.

 

In further support of my contention, current Rule 8-2 already uses similar prohibition language, and we know that lined balls are frequently and legally, placed on the green with the intention of showing the player his line of putt.

b. On the Putting Green

 

 

When the player's ball is on the putting green, the line of putt may be indicated before, but not during, the stroke by the player, his partner or either of their caddies; in doing so the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere for the purpose of indicating a line of putt.

 

With regard to the bit I've underlined and italicised, I thought that's a really interesting point. A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

[Newby]

Doesn't a permissive rule (requiring a ball to be placed or replaced) override a prohibitive rule (using a mark on the ball for alignment) ?

[QEight]

Interpretation 10-2b(3)/1 says a player can't place a club down to indicate the line of play,

 

Not quite. Interpretation 10-2b(3)/1 says a player can't place a club down to help the player take a stance.

 

Perhaps 3->2?

[Newby]

? Please explain

 

But I should have typed 10.2 not 10-2

[Stuart_G]

Doesn't a permissive rule (requiring a ball to be placed or replaced) override a prohibitive rule (using a mark on the ball for alignment) ?

 

Considering the numerous ways a ball can be marked in a way that does not indicate a line of play, I don't see any conflict between the two rules and therefore no need for either one to override the other.

[Newby]

A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

Interpretation 14.2c/1

[Sawgrass]

A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

Interpretation 14.2c/1

That certainly does exempt the "object" of a ball. So we are left with a concern as to whether placing another object, a round ball mark (with, say, a course's name written in a straight line on it) would be a violation if placed with the intent of indicating the line of play. I don't know, but it seems to me to scream for an exception.

[LeoLeo99]

A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

Interpretation 14.2c/1

That certainly does exempt the "object" of a ball. So we are left with a concern as to whether placing another object, a round ball mark (with, say, a course's name written in a straight line on it) would be a violation if placed with the intent of indicating the line of play. I don't know, but it seems to me to scream for an exception.

 

[Sawgrass]

A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

Interpretation 14.2c/1

That certainly does exempt the "object" of a ball. So we are left with a concern as to whether placing another object, a round ball mark (with, say, a course's name written in a straight line on it) would be a violation if placed with the intent of indicating the line of play. I don't know, but it seems to me to scream for an exception.

 

Is Aim Pro going to have to place a sticker over that gold starburst on their package?

[Sawgrass]

Just sent this off to the USGA:

 

 

I see that new Rule 10.2b says in part, “The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made."

I have a question about a ball with an alignment line drawn on it, and a ball marker with some sort of straight line (text for example) printed on it. Both of these are “objects” which could be used to indicate a line.

I presume that new interpretation 14.2c/1 exempts one from a violation when orienting a lined ball, but I’m unclear if it would be a violation if, prior to removing the ball mark, a player used it to help with indicating his line of play.

 

Am I correct in my presumption about the lined ball? And is it a violation to align some marking on a ball marker?

[QEight]

Just sent this off to the USGA:

 

 

I see that new Rule 10.2b says in part, “The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made."

I have a question about a ball with an alignment line drawn on it, and a ball marker with some sort of straight line (text for example) printed on it. Both of these are “objects” which could be used to indicate a line.

I presume that new interpretation 14.2c/1 exempts one from a violation when orienting a lined ball, but I’m unclear if it would be a violation if, prior to removing the ball mark, a player used it to help with indicating his line of play.

 

Am I correct in my presumption about the lined ball? And is it a violation to align some marking on a ball marker?

 

There are these ball markers with a line for aiming and some with a "bay" for the ball. And they have been legal so far. http://www.aimprogolf.com/ and https://www.pgatour.com/news/2008/08/12/cameronballmark.html

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

Interpretation 14.2c/1

 

Sorry, I can't find that on the R&A site. 14.2 only goes to b. Could you link it, please?

[rogolf]

A ball with lines on it to help point the direction to the hole is, strictly speaking, surely illegal under the new 10.2b? Do you think that was an oversight on the part of the rules committee, and might it be amended to clarify that such balls are in fact OK to use?

Interpretation 14.2c/1

 

Sorry, I can't find that on the R&A site. 14.2 only goes to b. Could you link it, please?

[bknaepen]

Going back to the original question :-), I have the impression that the majority votes against being allowed to align the tee after lifting the ball.

 

It's funny because ball markers with alignment aids are now being discussed and these are the ones I had in mind initially (I figured it would be easier to ask the question with a tee instead...).

 

So imagine you have one of those ball markers and that it also includes a spike that allows you to punch it into the ground (like many ball markers have). Are you allowed to rotate the ball marker around it's axis after the ball has been lifted? Given it's punched into the ground at its center, it's 100% certain you can replace the ball at its initial location...

 

ps: I know you are not allowed to rotate the ball itself without marking it.

[raynorfan1]

Going back to the original question :-), I have the impression that the majority votes against being allowed to align the tee after lifting the ball.

 

It's funny because ball markers with alignment aids are now being discussed and these are the ones I had in mind initially (I figured it would be easier to ask the question with a tee instead...).

 

So imagine you have one of those ball markers and that it also includes a spike that allows you to punch it into the ground (like many ball markers have). Are you allowed to rotate the ball marker around it's axis after the ball has been lifted? Given it's punched into the ground at its center, it's 100% certain you can replace the ball at its initial location...

 

ps: I know you are not allowed to rotate the ball itself without marking it.

 

You are very clearly not allowed to move your marker.

 

In the absence of a decision, I would say that "rotating" is, in fact, moving...even if the overall position doesn't change.

[bknaepen]

Can't you argue that the punch in the ground serves as an extra marker marking the position of the marker...

[Sawgrass]

Can't you argue that the punch in the ground serves as an extra marker marking the position of the marker...

You clearly can't rotate the ball without marking it, so I'd assume you can't rotate your marker either. While the marker's spike would surely keep it in the same location, that isn't the determining factor in penalizing a player for rotating his ball, so I'd avoid rotating the marker without the ball in place.

 

Support:

 

18-2/33

 

Rotating Ball on Putting Green Without Marking Position

 

Q.A player rotates his ball on the putting green to line up the trademark with the hole. He did not lift the ball, mark its position or change its position. Is there a penalty?

 

A.Yes, one stroke for touching the ball other than as provided for in the Rules (Rule 18-2). Under Rules 16-1band 20-1, a ball on the putting green may be lifted (or touched and rotated) after its position has been marked. If the player had marked the position of the ball before rotating it, there would have been no penalty.

 

20-1/5.5

 

Ball-Marker Moved Accidentally by Player

 

Q.A player marked the position of his ball on the putting green and lifted the ball. When it was the player's turn to play, he could not find his ball-marker. Subsequently, he found the ball-marker stuck to the sole of his shoe. He concluded that he had accidentally stepped on it while assisting his partner in lining up a putt. What is the ruling?

 

A.The player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 20-1 which requires that the position of a ball be marked before it is lifted, and contemplates that the ball-marker will remain in position until the ball is replaced. The player must place the ball as near as possible to its original position but not nearer the hole - Rule 20-3c.

 

Under the last paragraph of Rule 20-1, a player is exempt from penalty if his ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball or marking its position. In this case the ball-marker was not moved during such process.

[raynorfan1]

Can't you argue that the punch in the ground serves as an extra marker marking the position of the marker...

You clearly can't rotate the ball without marking it, so I'd assume you can't rotate your marker either. While the marker's spike would surely keep it in the same location, that isn't the determining factor in penalizing a player for rotating his ball, so I'd avoid rotating the marker without the ball in place.

 

I think his point is that the "marker" actually isn't the marker - the hole created by the marker is. Then you're spinning an extraneous tool that happens to be on top of the ball marker (the hole).

 

Feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to line a ball up...

[Sawgrass]

Can't you argue that the punch in the ground serves as an extra marker marking the position of the marker...

You clearly can't rotate the ball without marking it, so I'd assume you can't rotate your marker either. While the marker's spike would surely keep it in the same location, that isn't the determining factor in penalizing a player for rotating his ball, so I'd avoid rotating the marker without the ball in place.

 

I think his point is that the "marker" actually isn't the marker - the hole created by the marker is. Then you're spinning an extraneous tool that happens to be on top of the ball marker (the hole).

 

Feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to line a ball up...

I do know that a hole, that is, a defining characteristic of the green's surface, can not be used as a ball mark (any more than a blotch on the green can be used). So, while this is certainly technical to the extreme, I still don't think you can spin the mark. But why the hell not put the ball back down before you do so and remove all doubt?

[rogolf]

Since you're permitted to scratch a line in the green to mark the ball's location, surely creating a hole with a tee is also permitted?

[raynorfan1]

Can't you argue that the punch in the ground serves as an extra marker marking the position of the marker...

You clearly can't rotate the ball without marking it, so I'd assume you can't rotate your marker either. While the marker's spike would surely keep it in the same location, that isn't the determining factor in penalizing a player for rotating his ball, so I'd avoid rotating the marker without the ball in place.

 

I think his point is that the "marker" actually isn't the marker - the hole created by the marker is. Then you're spinning an extraneous tool that happens to be on top of the ball marker (the hole).

 

Feels like a lot of mental gymnastics to line a ball up...

I do know that a hole, that is, a defining characteristic of the green's surface, can not be used as a ball mark (any more than a blotch on the green can be used). So, while this is certainly technical to the extreme, I still don't think you can spin the mark. But why the hell not put the ball back down before you do so and remove all doubt?

 

You can almost certainly use a hole that you made as a mark (though not a hole that was already there).

 

But I agree with Sawgrass in that you should just put the ball down and wiggle the ball and marker around as part of the "process" of marking.