2019 ISPS Handa Vic Open Feb 07 - 10

[Raving Shanker]

Hope Su takes it as the great result it is, and maybe the next big Sunday will feel just a little easier to start now. It'll happen.

 

Despite Su's score, she looked very likely today. I thought she gave it a red hot go, and I am optimistic about her future.

[ChronicSlicer]

Hope Su takes it as the great result it is, and maybe the next big Sunday will feel just a little easier to start now. It'll happen.

 

Despite Su's score, she looked very likely today. I thought she gave it a red hot go, and I am optimistic about her future.

 

I think Su has the tools to get it done, I`ll keep rooting for her in the meantime.

[Shilgy]

As far as the men/women comparison goes...I wish they would have done a better job setting up the course to comparable distances. But this event does show a couple things about pro golf. There are many more talented male players, and they handle the tough conditions much better. Given a comparable length course and benign conditions and the women will hang with the men score wise. Howling wind and firm conditions is a big disadvantage for the women.

[Argonne69]

Congrats to Celine. That was a heck of a clutch putting performance. It wasn't pretty at times, but she was nailing those par saves to keep the lead. After a ho hum 2018 with a single top ten, she'll move up significantly on the priority list with her first win.

 

A tip of the cap to Su, who managed to turn her round around and finish strong. Kim, on the other hand, couldn't buy a putt mid-round, and continued the slide.

 

Haru has definitely had better putting days. She was in the mix, but could catch Celine.

 

Ooh, I didn't like what few putts I saw by Jodi. Will her putting woes never cease?

 

Fantastic rounds by Sarah, Charolette, and Aza. 'Not sure if it was the conditions early in the round, or lack of pressure being more or less out of it, but they shot lights out.

 

'Nice week for Alison. Glad to see her playing with some form.

 

I thought it actually turned into a decent tournament with 8 or more players within a couple of strokes of the lead on the final stretch. Anything could have happened. Of course it would have been nice to see a few more shots by the leaders still on the course. The men managed the vast majority of the coverage.

[Argonne69]

As far as the men/women comparison goes...I wish they would have done a better job setting up the course to comparable distances. But this event does show a couple things about pro golf. There are many more talented male players, and they handle the tough conditions much better. Given a comparable length course and benign conditions and the women will hang with the men score wise. Howling wind and firm conditions is a big disadvantage for the women.

 

'No kidding. The women played at least 8 to 10 percent too long. One of the par 3's on the back, the 12th, had a difference of 20 yds. The men were hitting 6/7 irons, and I believe they mentioned that Celine hit a 4 iron.

[ChronicSlicer]

As far as the men/women comparison goes...I wish they would have done a better job setting up the course to comparable distances. But this event does show a couple things about pro golf. There are many more talented male players, and they handle the tough conditions much better. Given a comparable length course and benign conditions and the women will hang with the men score wise. Howling wind and firm conditions is a big disadvantage for the women.

 

Maybe I`m missing something, but how can firm conditions be a big disadvantage for the shorter hitting ladies. If anything that would help with distance off the tee (more roll), which equates to a shorter and likely more accurate second shot into a green. Or no?

[Argonne69]

The women don't put as much spin on the ball hitting the same iron. Hitting longer irons means even less spin. With firm greens it's hard to get the ball to stop, especially downwind. We saw that on a number of holes today, with many players winding up behind the green.

 

Yeah, they get more rollout, but so do the men. The women were generally hitting two clubs more into each green.

[Stooch]

Congrats to Celine on a nice win for the start of her season. To me watching this event, the biggest difference between Men/Women's game is playing in the wind. I didn't follow the men's scores super closely, but the eye test showed me the women's field struggled much more than the Men's. But this is something I've known for a while. In LPGA events with lots of wind, there are the usual suspects who can play and deal with the conditions, while most of the field are putting up crooked numbers.

[ChronicSlicer]

The women don't put as much spin on the ball hitting the same iron. Hitting longer irons means even less spin. With firm greens it's hard to get the ball to stop, especially downwind. We saw that on a number of holes today, with many players winding up behind the green.

 

What is underlined, is my exact point in why being closer to the green would not be a big disadvantage, but the other way around. Regardless of course conditions the closer the better.

[mallrat]

Congrats to Celine. You have to wonder what is going through Celine’s head now. Dropped 9 shots over the weekend to lose the tournament. I feel like she has been up the leader board a few times now and just falls every Sunday.

[4waymiss]

Wow, Celine Boutier looks very different... Double eyelid surgery and maybe something else too.

 

I just love listening to an Asian looking woman speaking English with a French accent.

 

[Argonne69]

Congrats to Celine. You have to wonder what is going through Celine's head now. Dropped 9 shots over the weekend to lose the tournament. I feel like she has been up the leader board a few times now and just falls every Sunday.

 

I assume you mean Kim's head? She's in her 6th season, and she only had 10 previous top 10's. Getting that first win is tough. She's not the only player to struggle with the lead. I'm guessing that the majority of 1st wins are come from behind victories.

[BadgerLin]

Congrats to Celine. You have to wonder what is going through Celine's head now. Dropped 9 shots over the weekend to lose the tournament. I feel like she has been up the leader board a few times now and just falls every Sunday.

 

I assume you mean Kim's head? She's in her 6th season, and she only had 10 previous top 10's. Getting that first win is tough. She's not the only player to struggle with the lead. I'm guessing that the majority of 1st wins are come from behind victories.

 

 

I was thinking mallrat meant Su Oh. Kim didn’t falter until Sunday, and she hasn’t been up on the leaderboard for over a year.

[Shilgy]

The women don't put as much spin on the ball hitting the same iron. Hitting longer irons means even less spin. With firm greens it's hard to get the ball to stop, especially downwind. We saw that on a number of holes today, with many players winding up behind the green.

 

What is underlined, is my exact point in why being closer to the green would not be a big disadvantage, but the other way around. Regardless of course conditions the closer the better.

I was speaking in relative terms for this event. The women were playing longer course, relatively, then the men. So they were hitting longer clubs in than were the men. Firm conditions do not help that.

Your logic seems sound doesn't it? But have you ever heard pros on any tour say a course is more gettable when firm and windy? Or do they say that when soft and no wind? Even taking out the extreme wind a soft course yields lower scores.

[ChronicSlicer]

The women don't put as much spin on the ball hitting the same iron. Hitting longer irons means even less spin. With firm greens it's hard to get the ball to stop, especially downwind. We saw that on a number of holes today, with many players winding up behind the green.

 

What is underlined, is my exact point in why being closer to the green would not be a big disadvantage, but the other way around. Regardless of course conditions the closer the better.

I was speaking in relative terms for this event. The women were playing longer course, relatively, then the men. So they were hitting longer clubs in than were the men. Firm conditions do not help that.

Your logic seems sound doesn't it? But have you ever heard pros on any tour say a course is more gettable when firm and windy? Or do they say that when soft and no wind? Even taking out the extreme wind a soft course yields lower scores.

 

I`m not sure you understand my point, regardless it`s a non issue.

[Shilgy]

The women don't put as much spin on the ball hitting the same iron. Hitting longer irons means even less spin. With firm greens it's hard to get the ball to stop, especially downwind. We saw that on a number of holes today, with many players winding up behind the green.

 

What is underlined, is my exact point in why being closer to the green would not be a big disadvantage, but the other way around. Regardless of course conditions the closer the better.

I was speaking in relative terms for this event. The women were playing longer course, relatively, then the men. So they were hitting longer clubs in than were the men. Firm conditions do not help that.

Your logic seems sound doesn't it? But have you ever heard pros on any tour say a course is more gettable when firm and windy? Or do they say that when soft and no wind? Even taking out the extreme wind a soft course yields lower scores.

 

I`m not sure you understand my point, regardless it`s a non issue.

Pretty sure I understood your point. You feel that firm is "easier" because the players will be longer off the tee meaning they will be having shorter irons into the green. And I'm saying it sounds logical but... soft means you hit more fairways and approach shots stop more quickly as well.

There is a reason the USGA wants firm and fast for the US Open. It's more difficult.

[ChronicSlicer]

The women don't put as much spin on the ball hitting the same iron. Hitting longer irons means even less spin. With firm greens it's hard to get the ball to stop, especially downwind. We saw that on a number of holes today, with many players winding up behind the green.

 

What is underlined, is my exact point in why being closer to the green would not be a big disadvantage, but the other way around. Regardless of course conditions the closer the better.

I was speaking in relative terms for this event. The women were playing longer course, relatively, then the men. So they were hitting longer clubs in than were the men. Firm conditions do not help that.

Your logic seems sound doesn't it? But have you ever heard pros on any tour say a course is more gettable when firm and windy? Or do they say that when soft and no wind? Even taking out the extreme wind a soft course yields lower scores.

 

I`m not sure you understand my point, regardless it`s a non issue.

Pretty sure I understood your point. You feel that firm is "easier" because the players will be longer off the tee meaning they will be having shorter irons into the green. And I'm saying it sounds logical but... soft means you hit more fairways and approach shots stop more quickly as well.

There is a reason the USGA wants firm and fast for the US Open. It's more difficult.

 

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

[Hawkeye77]

Tried to watch twice, couldn’t take it for long. Covering two tourneys at the same time just doesn’t work.

[Raving Shanker]

Tried to watch twice, couldn't take it for long. Covering two tourneys at the same time just doesn't work.

It was interesting and unique. I am not sure if it worked - probably not. Late in the last round there was still a strong possibility that Haru Nomura could win, but they hadn't shown her on the TV coverage, or mentioned her, until she messed up that short par 4 (15th or 16th). It occurred to me then that it would be highly embarrassing if she had won! Covering two tournaments, it was not even possible to cover all the contenders within a tournament!

 

Another moment that seemed odd was when Celine sank the winning putt. Some other girls came on to douse her from water bottles, but they were all getting ushered off the green so the final men's group could hit up. Just awkward!

 

Other way of looking at it though is that there was twice the excitement!

[Shilgy]

 

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

Maybe you could explain it better then? A couple of us misunderstood.

[tbowles411]

I'm not gonna lie, I fell asleep.

[Titleist_PT23]

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

Maybe you could explain it better then? A couple of us misunderstood.

I believe the starting points made were these:

#1. The women were at a disadvantage relative to the men because the women were playing a longer course (vs. how far they drive the ball on average).

#2. The women were at a further disadvantage because it was firm. Hitting longer clubs into the greens than the men made it even harder for the women to stop the ball.

 

Further, even if the men and women had played the same length course (relative to how far they drive the ball) because it was firm the women would have been at a disadvantage to the men because they don't hit the ball as high /with as much spin. I.e. they cannot get the ball to stop on the greens and some pins are nearly impossible to get to even if they are hitting the same 8-iron to the green as the men.

 

Now, just looking at the women themselves. Is playing a 6500 yard course that is firm (drives roll farther, hit a shorter club into the green) easier than playing a 6500 yard course that is soft (have to hit a longer club into the green)? I think the answer, especially at the pro level, is no. Pros (LPGA and PGA) are so good with their irons that if the ball is going to stop where it lands they will tear the course apart. Soft conditions also make it easier to get up and down. Also, wind is often why a course dries out and gets firm. I don't know how to separate the wind factor and its impact on scores from the equation but my gut is the firm course is still more difficult. Just look at Augusta (the course is relatively the same year after year) and the scores when it is firm/soft. Also take Pebble Beach. Assuming Phil goes par-par, he will have shot 136 over the two rounds at Pebble (par will be a shot lower at the U.S. Open in June). It is extremely unlikely anyone in the field will shot 272 there in June (that is what Tiger shot in 2000 and no one else was anywhere close).

[Shilgy]

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

Maybe you could explain it better then? A couple of us misunderstood.

I believe the starting points made were these:

#1. The women were at a disadvantage relative to the men because the women were playing a longer course (vs. how far they drive the ball on average).

#2. The women were at a further disadvantage because it was firm. Hitting longer clubs into the greens than the men made it even harder for the women to stop the ball.

 

Further, even if the men and women had played the same length course (relative to how far they drive the ball) because it was firm the women would have been at a disadvantage to the men because they don't hit the ball as high /with as much spin. I.e. they cannot get the ball to stop on the greens and some pins are nearly impossible to get to even if they are hitting the same 8-iron to the green as the men.

 

Now, just looking at the women themselves. Is playing a 6500 yard course that is firm (drives roll farther, hit a shorter club into the green) easier than playing a 6500 yard course that is soft (have to hit a longer club into the green)? I think the answer, especially at the pro level, is no. Pros (LPGA and PGA) are so good with their irons that if the ball is going to stop where it lands they will tear the course apart. Soft conditions also make it easier to get up and down. Also, wind is often why a course dries out and gets firm. I don't know how to separate the wind factor and its impact on scores from the equation but my gut is the firm course is still more difficult. Just look at Augusta (the course is relatively the same year after year) and the scores when it is firm/soft. Also take Pebble Beach. Assuming Phil goes par-par, he will have shot 136 over the two rounds at Pebble (par will be a shot lower at the U.S. Open in June). It is extremely unlikely anyone in the field will shot 272 there in June (that is what Tiger shot in 2000 and no one else was anywhere close).

I get that-you and I agree. Chronic seemed to be the opposite and feels firmer makes it shorter so it is easier.

[95124hacker]

I'm not gonna lie, I fell asleep.

 

Same here. Didn’t recognize anyone on page 1 of the men’s leaderboard besides Colsaerts.

On the ladies side, sorry but Su Oh battling 2 no-names in the final group with another no-name in the clubhouse wasn’t riveting either. A lot of good ladies missed the cut (Minjee, Charley Hull, Pernilla, Sagstrom, Davies, Joh, Webb, Law, Pressel, Mel Reid).

Can’t wait for the ANA Inspiration. That marks the REAL LPGA season start for me!

[Titleist_PT23]

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

Maybe you could explain it better then? A couple of us misunderstood.

I believe the starting points made were these:

#1. The women were at a disadvantage relative to the men because the women were playing a longer course (vs. how far they drive the ball on average).

#2. The women were at a further disadvantage because it was firm. Hitting longer clubs into the greens than the men made it even harder for the women to stop the ball.

 

Further, even if the men and women had played the same length course (relative to how far they drive the ball) because it was firm the women would have been at a disadvantage to the men because they don't hit the ball as high /with as much spin. I.e. they cannot get the ball to stop on the greens and some pins are nearly impossible to get to even if they are hitting the same 8-iron to the green as the men.

 

Now, just looking at the women themselves. Is playing a 6500 yard course that is firm (drives roll farther, hit a shorter club into the green) easier than playing a 6500 yard course that is soft (have to hit a longer club into the green)? I think the answer, especially at the pro level, is no. Pros (LPGA and PGA) are so good with their irons that if the ball is going to stop where it lands they will tear the course apart. Soft conditions also make it easier to get up and down. Also, wind is often why a course dries out and gets firm. I don't know how to separate the wind factor and its impact on scores from the equation but my gut is the firm course is still more difficult. Just look at Augusta (the course is relatively the same year after year) and the scores when it is firm/soft. Also take Pebble Beach. Assuming Phil goes par-par, he will have shot 136 over the two rounds at Pebble (par will be a shot lower at the U.S. Open in June). It is extremely unlikely anyone in the field will shot 272 there in June (that is what Tiger shot in 2000 and no one else was anywhere close).

I get that-you and I agree. Chronic seemed to be the opposite and feels firmer makes it shorter so it is easier.

Sorry, I know you do. I was hoping to get a civil response from Chronic. Either I don't understand his/her angle or he/she got turned around on some point (happens to all of us) and then the internet forum argument environment prohibited us reaching a solution (happened to me many times).

[ChronicSlicer]

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

Maybe you could explain it better then? A couple of us misunderstood.

I believe the starting points made were these:

#1. The women were at a disadvantage relative to the men because the women were playing a longer course (vs. how far they drive the ball on average).

#2. The women were at a further disadvantage because it was firm. Hitting longer clubs into the greens than the men made it even harder for the women to stop the ball.

 

Further, even if the men and women had played the same length course (relative to how far they drive the ball) because it was firm the women would have been at a disadvantage to the men because they don't hit the ball as high /with as much spin. I.e. they cannot get the ball to stop on the greens and some pins are nearly impossible to get to even if they are hitting the same 8-iron to the green as the men.

 

Now, just looking at the women themselves. Is playing a 6500 yard course that is firm (drives roll farther, hit a shorter club into the green) easier than playing a 6500 yard course that is soft (have to hit a longer club into the green)? I think the answer, especially at the pro level, is no. Pros (LPGA and PGA) are so good with their irons that if the ball is going to stop where it lands they will tear the course apart. Soft conditions also make it easier to get up and down. Also, wind is often why a course dries out and gets firm. I don't know how to separate the wind factor and its impact on scores from the equation but my gut is the firm course is still more difficult. Just look at Augusta (the course is relatively the same year after year) and the scores when it is firm/soft. Also take Pebble Beach. Assuming Phil goes par-par, he will have shot 136 over the two rounds at Pebble (par will be a shot lower at the U.S. Open in June). It is extremely unlikely anyone in the field will shot 272 there in June (that is what Tiger shot in 2000 and no one else was anywhere close).

I get that-you and I agree. Chronic seemed to be the opposite and feels firmer makes it shorter so it is easier.

 

I don`t feel firmer makes it easier at all, I do feel given the course conditions (windy and firm) the firmness of the fairways allowed for more roll out, which would allow for a higher lofted iron/wedge to the green. So from my point of view, hitting a short iron into a firm green would give you better stopping power than a 5i or 6i would.

 

Nothing about firm/wind is good, but when that`s what you got, I`d rather be closer to than longer away.

[Titleist_PT23]

Sorry bud, like I said you didn`t get my point.

Maybe you could explain it better then? A couple of us misunderstood.

I believe the starting points made were these:

#1. The women were at a disadvantage relative to the men because the women were playing a longer course (vs. how far they drive the ball on average).

#2. The women were at a further disadvantage because it was firm. Hitting longer clubs into the greens than the men made it even harder for the women to stop the ball.

 

Further, even if the men and women had played the same length course (relative to how far they drive the ball) because it was firm the women would have been at a disadvantage to the men because they don't hit the ball as high /with as much spin. I.e. they cannot get the ball to stop on the greens and some pins are nearly impossible to get to even if they are hitting the same 8-iron to the green as the men.

 

Now, just looking at the women themselves. Is playing a 6500 yard course that is firm (drives roll farther, hit a shorter club into the green) easier than playing a 6500 yard course that is soft (have to hit a longer club into the green)? I think the answer, especially at the pro level, is no. Pros (LPGA and PGA) are so good with their irons that if the ball is going to stop where it lands they will tear the course apart. Soft conditions also make it easier to get up and down. Also, wind is often why a course dries out and gets firm. I don't know how to separate the wind factor and its impact on scores from the equation but my gut is the firm course is still more difficult. Just look at Augusta (the course is relatively the same year after year) and the scores when it is firm/soft. Also take Pebble Beach. Assuming Phil goes par-par, he will have shot 136 over the two rounds at Pebble (par will be a shot lower at the U.S. Open in June). It is extremely unlikely anyone in the field will shot 272 there in June (that is what Tiger shot in 2000 and no one else was anywhere close).

I get that-you and I agree. Chronic seemed to be the opposite and feels firmer makes it shorter so it is easier.

 

I don`t feel firmer makes it easier at all, I do feel given the course conditions (windy and firm) the firmness of the fairways allowed for more roll out, which would allow for a higher lofted iron/wedge to the green. So from my point of view, hitting a short iron into a firm green would give you better stopping power than a 5i or 6i would.

 

Nothing about firm/wind is good, but when that`s what you got, I`d rather be closer to than longer away.

OK, I see what you are saying. But for this past tournament the firm fairways had everyone's ball running out more, so for the reasons mentioned above I think net-net everything made it harder for the women relatively speaking.

[Argonne69]

Right. The men and women get the same rollout, so the men are still hitting shorter irons into the greens, and given their firmness and the wind, it's still harder than playing in soft conditions. It was no surprise In Gee set the scoring record for a major at the Evian in sloppy conditions. Hitting shots into those greens was like throwing a dart into a dart board.

[Ausgolfgirl1]

Here's my take after having played it. Firmer fairways which is common in Victoria and Adelaide compared to other states of Australia traditionally gives more roll out but makes fairways narrower, having said that the fairways at Thirteenth Beach are quite generous.

 

I've found firm conditions makes scoring worse generally given you can't get at pins as easily, especially when you add wind to the equation. Softer conditions makes this easier. Some pins with the winds on both courses weren't accessible, and a good shot was 20-30 feet away. You have to accept that in those conditions.

 

We prepared our practice based on the extra length and on Wednesday night we got an email saying they would be making changes to the course setup following 'feedback' received. So what actually happened on the Thurs/Fri was some tees were moved back into the position we played them in previous years. I would guess of the 10-12 tees originally scheduled to be made longer on both courses, there were 4-5 moved back each course.

 

So it was a half compromise of sorts. We cannot generate the same spin from 130m with an 8 iron that a male can from 155m with the same 8 iron so it's harder for us with the same club to get at pins they can. The course for the men was very short, lots of times I heard the thud of their tee shot near a par 4 green whilst we were on it.

 

Now having said all this, I personally wanted them to leave the course Longer than previous years because that's how we did our preparation and I felt it would still identify the best players. One of the issues though was we were hitting lots of long irons and fairway woods into par 4's which caused some of the 'feedback' but it didn't bother me. It's an LPGA event and it's not supposed to be easy.

 

The event is a great event and for those that play and the crowd that attend everyone knows how good it is. Everyone wants to complain about equality etc but here we have a tournament that's leading the way in addressing it and people in the golf world still want to have a crack. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. In years to come this will be the event that had a vision and led the way. It's gone from a $200,000aus event to a $1.5 million Aus event in 6 years with many people who believe in it and us players are incredibly lucky. What you can't see on tv is the fact that both genders get to mix all week and the guys can appreciate our games. It helps break down barriers and we enjoy mixing with them as well and we appreciate their talents and marvel at the distances they hit it and compression/spin they generate.

 

We had male players walking around mapping courses whilst we were playing and they were clapping and appreciated our quality shots. This event brings players together and is a window into what the future will look like. I have no doubt in 10 years time there will be many dual gender events. Small steps, big visions. It takes time but companies, sponsors, players and spectators will be getting on board.

[Argonne69]

'Very odd that they altered the course based on "feedback". I could see moving some tees forward based on changing weather forecasts, but not complaints from the players. 'Kind of defeats the purpose of practice rounds, no?