Swing Weight and Swing Feel

golfer55082 · February 27, 2019

This year, I bought an IZ 6S driver shaft, and installed to my son's Ping G400 Max driver. The length of the shaft is longer than normal, measured at 45". The total play length when installed is 45.875". As a result, the Swing Weight is D7, larger/heavier than a standard driver (which is D2-D3). I assumed that this club will feel very heavy, but my son claims that it does not feel heavy at all. As a matter of fact, he swings very well with this club - the distance is long and the dispersion is tight.

My question is if swing weight is the only deciding factor of "how heavy a club feels like". I thought so, but it does not seem to be the case from my son's experience. His 3H has a swing weight value of D2.5, but he says it swing as heavy as the driver which is D7.

Ideas? Should I cut his driver shaft to bring the swing weight down?

Valtiel · February 28, 2019

The only reason you would cut it down would be to improve strike and dispersion, which if they don't need improving then is a waste of time.

And to answer your question, no, swing weight is not the only deciding factor in how heavy a club feels. Static weight is just as important and is likely the reason his 3H feels as heavy as it does. Do you know what shaft is in that one?

I personally play my driver around the same number, between D6 and D8 @ 45.25" currently. The D2-D4 standard for current drivers is not some holy grail that everyone should conform to, plus the idiosyncrasies of swing weight as a measurement need to be considered if he is using heavier than normal grips. Bottom line is; if it works, don't mess with it.

golfer55082 · February 28, 2019

The only reason you would cut it down would be to improve strike and dispersion, which if they don't need improving then is a waste of time.

And to answer your question, no, swing weight is not the only deciding factor in how heavy a club feels. Static weight is just as important and is likely the reason his 3H feels as heavy as it does. Do you know what shaft is in that one?

I personally play my driver around the same number, between D6 and D8 @ 45.25" currently. The D2-D4 standard for current drivers is not some holy grail that everyone should conform to, plus the idiosyncrasies of swing weight as a measurement need to be considered if he is using heavier than normal grips. Bottom line is; if it works, don't mess with it.

Thanks for replying. His 3H is Callaway Epic Hybrid with GD Tour AD DI 85S shaft, 39.75" long (-0.25" than standard), 374 g, D2.5. His driver is 45.875" long, 323 g.

Stuart_G · February 28, 2019

There are quite a few things that can contribute to how heavy a club feels - and surprising to some, one of them can be shaft stiffness. The difference between too stiff and too heavy can be very fuzzy for some since both effect how the club feels as it resists accelleration. And of course swing mechanics plays a big part as well.

BUT the important point here about swing weight - it is NOT an absolute measurement of heft or weight feel. So comparing SW across different clubs with different lengths and different shaft weights is pointless and usually counterproductive. Only look at it in the context of relative changes. e.g. if a particular club feels too heavy, then it may be worth trying to lower the swing weight for that club.

And we can't forget that grip weight or butt weight can actually screw up the reading a swing weight scale will give. True swing weight is what the swing weight scale would show if the club had a 50 gm grip. No more, no less.

Valtiel · February 28, 2019

That is an interesting point about shaft stiffness. The AD-IZ definitely has some load and kick to it, a characteristic that could for some "dampen" the heft of the head feeling, especially with a much longer length.

How tall is your son golfer55082? Can you describe is overall swing characteristics e.g. upright/flat, quick/smooth tempo, long/short etc etc.

jvincent · February 28, 2019

My question is if swing weight is the only deciding factor of "how heavy a club feels like". I thought so, but it does not seem to be the case from my son's experience. His 3H has a swing weight value of D2.5, but he says it swing as heavy as the driver which is D7.

Ideas? Should I cut his driver shaft to bring the swing weight down?

SW is definitely NOT the only thing that affects feel.

Total weight is also very important, and for me is actually more important than SW.

Don't forget that SW is a measure of the balance of the club. It's possible to have two clubs which are different in total weight by 40g and still have the same SW. They will feel very different.

golfer55082 · February 28, 2019

He is 13 and half years old and 5'6". I don't know his swing speed but the driver carry distance at SkyTrak with the long driver has been consistently at 240-250, which leads to 260+ total distance. His swing tempo is smooth and swing shape is intermediate - not too much upright or flat. His backswing stops a hair short of parallel to the ground and he does not do a "full" full finish in order to keep under control.

I don't mind sharing his recent swings of 6i and driver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqEErJe4qk

That is an interesting point about shaft stiffness. The AD-IZ definitely has some load and kick to it, a characteristic that could for some "dampen" the heft of the head feeling, especially with a much longer length.

How tall is your son golfer55082? Can you describe is overall swing characteristics e.g. upright/flat, quick/smooth tempo, long/short etc etc.

Stuart_G · March 14, 2019

The traditional swingweighting system for golf clubs has been solidly proven among millions of golfers for nearing a century now, and it continues to essentially be the gold standard for matching clubs at the moment, a credit to its inventor.

"Gold Standard"? Not sure I'd go that far. "ONLY widely available standard/tool available" is more accurate.

And while I certainly agree it has been used for a very long time to successfully match clubs, that was largely due to the limited variation in club building components. With the historically more recent availability of a wide range of shaft weights, shaft balance points, grip weights, and even true counterbalancing and (more importantly) the much longer playing lengths in the longer clubs, many assumptions upon which the concept was based are no longer valid and it's become easier and easier to go outside the context in which it was designed to be used and therefore much easier to mis-use.

Don't get me wrong, it's still can be a very useful tool - but successful use requires a much better understanding of the proper and improper ways to use it then it required for the majority of it's history. You want to match the irons in your set, it's still a very good tool. But start messing with different shafts or different grips or the length increments, then it's a fine blue printing tool but no longer a very good matching tool.

Valtiel · March 14, 2019

Unfortunately, your knowledge will not really increase (at least not correctly) based on the responses you received as a whole to this point regarding your inquiry. For instance, anyone stating that the true swingweight value of a golf club is what the scale reads only when a 50-gram grip is installed is proving (very publicly) that he/she has no idea whatsoever of what swingweighting is all about. These unknowing statements have extensively damaged the clubfitting trade over time (especially the independent trade).

It is not a matter of "true" swingweight, whatever that is supposed to mean, it is a matter of how people have been incorrectly using it. It is the frequent "chasing of numbers" that leads people down the wrong path that many of us have attempted to correct. A swingweight number is only "valid" if you take into account all the variables e.g. grip weight, shaft balance point, and head weight. Someone thinks that their driver should always be "D4" without knowing what D4 represents, because once you change grip weight, add counter weight, or use a counter balanced shaft, D4 is no longer D4 because of the static weight.

So with some due respect, you're using some awfully harsh words towards people with an awful lot of experience in the field based on a misguided notion that swingweight is a "gold standard". It isn't, it is the simple standard in the absence of a more economical solution. MOI matching proves that the swingweight method was merely a poor mans alternative that is what was possible at the time it was created. As golfers have begun experimenting with larger/heavier grips, counter balanced shafts, and back weighting, the shortcoming of the basic swingweight method have become clear.

Stuart_G · March 14, 2019

It is not a matter of "true" swingweight, whatever that is supposed to mean, it is a matter of how people have been incorrectly using it.

Actually It's both (or they are both the same thing). "True Swing Weight" is just a term used to help people use the scale in the way that it was originally intended and designed to be used - a tool to help match weight feel to a certain degree by adjusting predominantly HEAD WEIGHT (and nothing more) in the context of small length changes.

Yes shaft weight and balance point act as another can of worms - but they don't completely mess up the SW scale's ability to do it's job the way that grip weight does.

Howard_Jones · March 14, 2019

This year, I bought an IZ 6S driver shaft, and installed to my son's Ping G400 Max driver. The length of the shaft is longer than normal, measured at 45". The total play length when installed is 45.875". As a result, the Swing Weight is D7, larger/heavier than a standard driver (which is D2-D3). I assumed that this club will feel very heavy, but my son claims that it does not feel heavy at all. As a matter of fact, he swings very well with this club - the distance is long and the dispersion is tight.

My question is if swing weight is the only deciding factor of "how heavy a club feels like". I thought so, but it does not seem to be the case from my son's experience. His 3H has a swing weight value of D2.5, but he says it swing as heavy as the driver which is D7.

Ideas? Should I cut his driver shaft to bring the swing weight down?

Try to put a piece of tape on top of the grip who takes play length down to 45.00"

that will also give the feel of going down, and in this case 5.25 SWP so you can try off "more standard like specs" and see if that improves anything, then you know if its right or wrong to play it as it is or if changes should be done.

Howard_Jones · March 30, 2019

> @golfer55082 said:

> Valtiel wrote:

>

> The only reason you would cut it down would be to improve strike and dispersion, which if they don't need improving then is a waste of time.

>

> And to answer your question, no, swing weight is not the only deciding factor in how heavy a club feels. Static weight is just as important and is likely the reason his 3H feels as heavy as it does. Do you know what shaft is in that one?

>

> I personally play my driver around the same number, between D6 and D8 @ 45.25" currently. The D2-D4 standard for current drivers is not some holy grail that everyone should conform to, plus the idiosyncrasies of swing weight as a measurement need to be considered if he is using heavier than normal grips. Bottom line is; if it works, don't mess with it.

>

> Thanks for replying. His 3H is Callaway Epic Hybrid with GD Tour AD DI 85S shaft, 39.75" long (-0.25" than standard), 374 g, D2.5. His driver is 45.875" long, 323 g.

Im very late to the party but here is some numbers who might explain it. (why SW values dont tell the whole story)

If we want to make to clubs to "feel equal" to each other, like a driver and a 3W, we have to look at both play length difference, shaft weight progression, shaft balance point and head weight (assuming we use the same grip)

-for each inch play length difference, use 5 grams uncut shaft weight pr inch

This case is 45.875" to 39.75" = 6.125 " x 5 grams = 30.6 grams UP as uncut shaft weight from driver to that 3W.

If nothing is done to head weight, the difference is in the area of 10 gram, so when we add them, we get 40 grams.

That 3W is 374 grams minus 40 grams = 334 grams driver...but its "only" 323. thats why the 3W dont feel lighter at D2.5 because its not a lighter club "relative speaking" when we compare the numbers, its actually 11 grams to the light side, and if grips is the same, its NOT head weight thats missing but shaft weight (to make it equal to the 3W in feel of weight, and at this play length, BUTT SIDE by using a CW balanced shaft at plus 11 grams from whats in there now)

If thats was target, that CW shaft would bring SW value down 4-5 SWP and then this 2 clubs, at THIS play length difference would feel "equal" (if that was target, i wrote this up to explain the difference only, but some adjustment of head weight might be needed to if equal MOI value was target)

Both Total weight progression, and ACTUAL weight distribution must be known to do the numbers "dead on", but this is how it looks if those shafts has the same balance point (or close to the same)

This chart was made to find a good starting point for testing of shaft weight when we have a club that works as it should as reference point (any club), and its based on the same system with 5 grams uncut shaft weight for each inch play length difference

https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/ipb/monthly_06_2017/post-174728-0-11400700-1496683995.png

As fitting parameters and importance

#1 - Play length

#2 - Total weight

#3 - Balance - NOT sw value.

So this is a school example of a case where this priority show up by itself, and tells Total weight IS more important than SW.

Stuart_G · March 30, 2019

> @kostuj said:

> Compared with loony MOI golf club matching, swingweight is certainly still the gold standard of golf club matching. Assuming that one properly understands the mechanics of both specifications, and even though it admittedly does not work consistently for everyone, swingweight can at least be called a legitimate golf club specification. It comprises a rational concept(s) that golfers can use to help regulate their swings and that golfers of all abilities can appreciate.

>

> MOI theory and practice, on the other hand, comprise multiple irrational concepts on multiple levels that are so absurd (even for golfers) and can easily hurt one's swing performance, it is almost as if supporters of the specification are purposely trying to destroy their own industry (and they are succeeding). Selecting between the two is a no brainer for anyone who really wants to be able to swing and play his/her best, unless as mentioned above the technicalities of one or both specifications are not comprehended properly.

Interesting viewpoint - considering the swing weight concept and scale was born from and has it's roots in (as you call it) "MOI theory and practice". Builders knew of, understood, and were using MOI concepts long before the SW scale and concept came to be. But the math was tedious and time consuming so the swing weight scale was designed as an easier and more convenient way to approximate MOI matching w/o having to do those calculations by hand. And (as I mentioned before), as an MOI approximation it worked fairly well back then (although opinions differed on where the fulcrum should be) in the context of what equipment choices were available back then. And as previously stated, even now it can still work fine as an approximation as long as one understands the original limitations.

But the point is that modern MOI measurements and concepts are nothing new or radically different from the original swing weight concepts. All it is really is is just a further refinement of the exact same concept and the two (SW and MOI) are really just minor variations of the same thing. The main difference being that the direct MOI measurements don't rely on nearly the same number of assumptions inherent in the swing weight scale usage so (in theory at least) can be used over a wider context.

vadersfather · March 30, 2019

So much great info in this thread , and imo, valtiel is right on about people chasing numbers . While dialing in my gamer, i did many range sessions until it just feels perfect . So after that, i take it in to get it re gripped , and my guy checks the sw and its E2. That number sounds ridiculous, but its perfect for me. Dont fret the numbers man!

RogerinNewZealand · March 30, 2019

IF you do shorten the driver...trim like one third of an inch 8mm and try then a further one third inch if needed...dont just cut One Inch . Sometimes shortenibg ruins the feel and useage of the club. I Know ! Dont over thing stuff with golf clubs.If he's happy you are a Great Dad ☺