3 years later for Lydia Ko...

[dpb5031]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > What some of the DL might want to look into is what happens off of the tee. You can't teach someone a new skill when they have an unskilled know it all in the players other ear. It happens with Lydia, it happened with Michelle Wie. There's the problem, not a particular instructor.

> > > > >

> > > > > Specifically about DL, some if the haters would fall off of their chairs if they knew who he's worked with behind the scenes over the years. But if course everyone here is an expert in every facet of the game.

> > > >

> > > > @buckeyefl , I have no beef with DL. In fact I think he's incredibly knowledgeable and a great instructor. The question begs though, why the radical change in her golf swing? Was this his idea/plan or do you think the parents pushed a particular agenda that he was compelled to implement.?

> > >

> > > How could he be compelled to implement it?! If the swing was being pushed by her parents, he could have simply said, "No. That swing won't work."

> > >

> > > It's clear that Lydia was using the A swing early in her time with DL. That's his baby.

> >

> > I'll let you figure that out.

> >

> > Heres a hint

> >

> > $$$

>

> So you're saying he's unethical. He'll teach something he doesn't believe in to make a buck. 'Wouldn't say you're wrong.

 

If her parents convinced her that it was necessary to learn to draw the ball to add distance, I could see her buying in. If together they hire DL and tell him that's what they want him to teach her, and they're the ones paying the bill, I can see him taking her in that direction. Now I have no idea, but he also may have warned them that completely changing her swing pattern was not without risk...who knows? In any event, she seems to have lost the "secret sauce," and her swing is entirely different than the one she dominated with hitting those "doinky" but effective little fades.

[DavePelz4]

It's pretty sad when you're not the highest rated Ko on tour

[Argonne69]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> It's pretty sad when you're not the highest rated Ko on tour

 

Lol. #2 isn't bad. Fewer distractions.

[farmer]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @farmer said:

> > Given that LK has been a celebrity since she was a child, has lived in a bubble managed by her parents and managers, I question that she has the self-awareness to sit back and consider her path. To Argonne's point, if DL has had anything to do with that thing MW is trying to play with, he needs to turn in his "Teacher to the Stars" badge and get a job on a grounds crew.

>

> OK, accept for a moment that Lydia and Michelle were messed up by their parents. Fine, that's why I asked about DL's other students. Surely not every single one of his professional students is so effected. Who else has won tournaments with his guiding hand? He's a Top 100 instructor for goodness sake. He has to have dozens of other success stories, no?

 

Nick Faldo is obviously his superstar pupil, but he was a grown man choosing to tear down a swing with which he had success. I believe that Nick Price and CH3 were students at one time or another. I remember the first time I saw MW play. Lovely, flowing swing plenty of length, and literally the next year, her swing was a mess.

[Tingting]

One can argue that the reason why she and Michelle were successful was because of their parents instead of the other way around. Think about all the parents out their pushing their kids to play golf. To a certain extent as a parent it would be hard to give that control as that same control led them to be a professional. As a parent knowing when to give up that control and give it to the young adult and/or coach is a difficult one

[Stooch]

Lydi is part of this "next wave" but she showed up early before the rest and did most of her winning..............things were so much easier when we were teenagers lol. Although I didn't think her fall of would be this bad.

[Argonne69]

'Just thinking about the equipment thing. I can't recall the last time a player with a full Callaway bag won on the LPGA tour. 6ix comes close with a full set or woods and irons, but Vokey wedges.

 

Jin Young plays Bridgestones irons along with her Callaway driver. Srixon has had a great season with Nasa, Minjee, Hannah, and Sei Young (2). Celine has a full bag of PXG clubs. Sung Hyun plays TaylorMade. Nelly has PXG irons, and a Callaway driver. Amu Yang plays Fourteen irons with a Callaway driver. Bronte has a Titleist bag. Lexi plays Cobras. Shanshan won with Honma. Brooke and Hinako are Ping staffers. Gaby won last year with PXG irons and a TM driver. Danielle has a TM driver and Titleist irons. In Gee and Angela play a full set of Ping. I believe Marina plays Srixon irons. Ariya is TM and Titleist.

 

OK, found it. Georgia Hall won the 2018 WBO with Callaway.

 

Now, I'm not dumping on Callaway. At this level the players could probably win with a 30 year old set of Northwestern clubs purchased at a K-Mart blue light special.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Argonne69 said:

> 'Just thinking about the equipment thing. I can't recall the last time a player with a full Callaway bag won on the LPGA tour. 6ix comes close with a full set or woods and irons, but Vokey wedges.

>

> Jin Young plays Bridgestones irons along with her Callaway driver. Srixon has had a great season with Nasa, Minjee, Hannah, and Sei Young (2). Celine has a full bag of PXG clubs. Sung Hyun plays TaylorMade. Nelly has PXG irons, and a Callaway driver. Amu Yang plays Fourteen irons with a Callaway driver. Bronte has a Titleist bag. Lexi plays Cobras. Shanshan won with Honma. Brooke and Hinako are Ping staffers. Gaby won last year with PXG irons and a TM driver. Danielle has a TM driver and Titleist irons. In Gee and Angela play a full set of Ping. I believe Marina plays Srixon irons. Ariya is TM and Titleist.

>

> OK, found it. Georgia Hall won the 2018 WBO with Callaway.

>

> Now, I'm not dumping on Callaway. At this level the players could probably win with a 30 year old set of Northwestern clubs purchased at a K-Mart blue light special.

It is also interesting that Lydia dumped the 5 hybrid along the way (I think she used two different 25* models when she was with Callaway). Clearly, this is not her only issue but it seemed like she could hit any shot with this club.

 

I remember looking at her bag and thinking she hits it 250 off the tee, if she can use a 25* hybrid maybe I should try one (I did, although it was eventually removed, possibly against my better judgement)?

[Argonne69]

I put a 5h in my bag when I saw Graeme McDowell play one in a tournament. I kept it in the bag when I saw Lydia hit hers. If I recall correctly, she hit her 5h on the 18th three times at the CME in 2014. Once in regulation, and twice during the playoff. She stuck it every time.

[Golf Dino]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > What some of the DL might want to look into is what happens off of the tee. You can't teach someone a new skill when they have an unskilled know it all in the players other ear. It happens with Lydia, it happened with Michelle Wie. There's the problem, not a particular instructor.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Specifically about DL, some if the haters would fall off of their chairs if they knew who he's worked with behind the scenes over the years. But if course everyone here is an expert in every facet of the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > @buckeyefl , I have no beef with DL. In fact I think he's incredibly knowledgeable and a great instructor. The question begs though, why the radical change in her golf swing? Was this his idea/plan or do you think the parents pushed a particular agenda that he was compelled to implement.?

> > > >

> > > > How could he be compelled to implement it?! If the swing was being pushed by her parents, he could have simply said, "No. That swing won't work."

> > > >

> > > > It's clear that Lydia was using the A swing early in her time with DL. That's his baby.

> > >

> > > I'll let you figure that out.

> > >

> > > Heres a hint

> > >

> > > $$$

> >

> > So you're saying he's unethical. He'll teach something he doesn't believe in to make a buck. 'Wouldn't say you're wrong.

>

> If her parents convinced her that it was necessary to learn to draw the ball to add distance, I could see her buying in. If together they hire DL and tell him that's what they want him to teach her, and they're the ones paying the bill, I can see him taking her in that direction. Now I have no idea, but he also may have warned them that completely changing her swing pattern was not without risk...who knows? In any event, she seems to have lost the "secret sauce," and her swing is entirely different than the one she dominated with hitting those "doinky" but effective little fades.

_______________

I decided to wade into this discussion because I think that the discussion has become a little polarized – into an either you’re for Lydia (against Leadbetter) or for Leadbetter (against the Ko parents).

 

So in an effort to bring some additional perspective to this discussion, please let me contribute. I apologize now for the length, but I wanted to “do justice” to the topic. I start with the following:

 

Argonne – you’ve adopted the line of reasoning that DL appears to be the problem with Lydia’s decline. In response to Buckeye’s rationale, you have asked him to state a professional win by one of his players. Now, that line of reasoning supposes that DL is the primary problem behind Lydia’s relative decline. As such, it would be unfair to not include Lydia’s wins when she was working with DL. It’s a relatively minor point, but bears noting.

 

Buckeye – it would appear that the line of reasoning that you have adopted is that the primary problem with Lydia’s relative decline is that of over-protective, over active parents that have interfered in the coach and player relationship. The effect of this is that this has negated any value that might have been gleaned from working with a swing coach.

 

To this end though, there is a compelling argument that there are plenty of players that change caddies and coaches and develop into better players or rather, enjoy varying degrees of success. I think that Argonne and some others have offered some good examples. Yet, as compelling as this argument is though, there is a corollary to it – namely, that if DL was the fundamental problem that precipitated Lydia’s decline from No.1, then the logical extension of that is that Lydia should have regained her status as an elite among the elite players having changed coaches, etc. The problem is that did not occur and seems at this point in time of increasingly becoming less and less likely to occur in future.

 

So what is the most plausible explanation? Well, I think in earlier parts of this thread, there was some sincere discussion as to what it was – namely that Lydia came onto the scene at a time when the Women’s game was starting to enter a new phase of its evolution – not too dissimilar to that of the men’s game of several years ago. She played extremely well, perhaps aided by her precociousness as a 15 year old and her well developed practice routines and a solid awareness of her own game.

 

She was an accurate driver of the ball, not necessarily long, but long enough to compete at most events. Her approaches and proximity to the hole seemed to be significantly higher than most of the field and her putting and short game was really good. This translated into wins for her.

 

But, the evolution of the Women’s game was afoot. Lexi was known primarily for her prodigious length off of the tee, Ariya entered the scene with her tremendous length off the tee, Brooke Henderson and Sei Young Kim emerged and are also quite long off the tee as well. Then Sung Hyun Park arrived, adding to the distance aspect of the game. As ably pointed out earlier, that means that even if Lydia had managed to gain 5 yards of length off of the tee, she still would have fallen down the “pecking order” in terms of driving length because the average number of players hitting the ball further continued to grow.

 

Now there are also some interesting data that suggests Lydia’s strongest part of the game has experienced a slight decline as well (iron play, approaches, short game, etc). So, all in all, I think Lydia’s relative decline is somewhat complete. I do not want to say never again, but if she manages to improve facets of her game, she would put herself into contention more and more – and she is definitely talented enough to do that.

 

So that brings us to the issue of her parents. I do agree with the supposition that her parents have gone from being a positive support to her (when she was younger) to becoming more of a detriment.

 

When Lydia was 15 and 16 years of age, she simply went out and played golf and had fun – lots of it! Now, though, as she has matured into a young adult, the burden of expectations (from past success), coupled with the loss of confidence that comes with it, and the disturbing knowledge that her length off of the tee puts her at a relative disadvantage to many of the other top competitors seems to have weighed heavily on her **AND HER PARENTS**.

 

As a person of Asian ancestry myself, there is no shortage of friends, family and acquaintances that can relate to the experience of over bearing parents and the expectations that the parents have of their children and for their children. Golf seems to be one of the sports in which Asian women can successfully compete and compete well. That can only add more fuel to the situation.

 

Practising at a local golf facility with a golf academy, I myself, have observed several Asian parents (mostly Chinese), interfere with the professional coaches that are teaching their children. It was so bad at one point, that the coach refunded one parent’s money and refused to work with the child because of the negative interference.

 

It is anecdotal – there are no quantifiable studies to document how often these situations are experienced, but I do believe that all things being equal, the interference of the parents can play such a detrimental role in the child’s development. To sum up, I do want to recognize that these are individuals and each individual responds to situations in their own ways. It is up to each person to negotiate their own way through golf and indeed life. So it seems Lydia has chosen her path and I think right or wrong, David needs to accept that.

 

 

[Argonne69]

No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

 

I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

 

I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

[JAMH03]

> @"Golf Dino" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > > What some of the DL might want to look into is what happens off of the tee. You can't teach someone a new skill when they have an unskilled know it all in the players other ear. It happens with Lydia, it happened with Michelle Wie. There's the problem, not a particular instructor.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Specifically about DL, some if the haters would fall off of their chairs if they knew who he's worked with behind the scenes over the years. But if course everyone here is an expert in every facet of the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > @buckeyefl , I have no beef with DL. In fact I think he's incredibly knowledgeable and a great instructor. The question begs though, why the radical change in her golf swing? Was this his idea/plan or do you think the parents pushed a particular agenda that he was compelled to implement.?

> > > > >

> > > > > How could he be compelled to implement it?! If the swing was being pushed by her parents, he could have simply said, "No. That swing won't work."

> > > > >

> > > > > It's clear that Lydia was using the A swing early in her time with DL. That's his baby.

> > > >

> > > > I'll let you figure that out.

> > > >

> > > > Heres a hint

> > > >

> > > > $$$

> > >

> > > So you're saying he's unethical. He'll teach something he doesn't believe in to make a buck. 'Wouldn't say you're wrong.

> >

> > If her parents convinced her that it was necessary to learn to draw the ball to add distance, I could see her buying in. If together they hire DL and tell him that's what they want him to teach her, and they're the ones paying the bill, I can see him taking her in that direction. Now I have no idea, but he also may have warned them that completely changing her swing pattern was not without risk...who knows? In any event, she seems to have lost the "secret sauce," and her swing is entirely different than the one she dominated with hitting those "doinky" but effective little fades.

> _______________

> I decided to wade into this discussion because I think that the discussion has become a little polarized – into an either you’re for Lydia (against Leadbetter) or for Leadbetter (against the Ko parents).

>

> So in an effort to bring some additional perspective to this discussion, please let me contribute. I apologize now for the length, but I wanted to “do justice” to the topic. I start with the following:

>

> Argonne – you’ve adopted the line of reasoning that DL appears to be the problem with Lydia’s decline. In response to Buckeye’s rationale, you have asked him to state a professional win by one of his players. Now, that line of reasoning supposes that DL is the primary problem behind Lydia’s relative decline. As such, it would be unfair to not include Lydia’s wins when she was working with DL. It’s a relatively minor point, but bears noting.

>

> Buckeye – it would appear that the line of reasoning that you have adopted is that the primary problem with Lydia’s relative decline is that of over-protective, over active parents that have interfered in the coach and player relationship. The effect of this is that this has negated any value that might have been gleaned from working with a swing coach.

>

> To this end though, there is a compelling argument that there are plenty of players that change caddies and coaches and develop into better players or rather, enjoy varying degrees of success. I think that Argonne and some others have offered some good examples. Yet, as compelling as this argument is though, there is a corollary to it – namely, that if DL was the fundamental problem that precipitated Lydia’s decline from No.1, then the logical extension of that is that Lydia should have regained her status as an elite among the elite players having changed coaches, etc. The problem is that did not occur and seems at this point in time of increasingly becoming less and less likely to occur in future.

>

> So what is the most plausible explanation? Well, I think in earlier parts of this thread, there was some sincere discussion as to what it was – namely that Lydia came onto the scene at a time when the Women’s game was starting to enter a new phase of its evolution – not too dissimilar to that of the men’s game of several years ago. She played extremely well, perhaps aided by her precociousness as a 15 year old and her well developed practice routines and a solid awareness of her own game.

>

> She was an accurate driver of the ball, not necessarily long, but long enough to compete at most events. Her approaches and proximity to the hole seemed to be significantly higher than most of the field and her putting and short game was really good. This translated into wins for her.

>

> But, the evolution of the Women’s game was afoot. Lexi was known primarily for her prodigious length off of the tee, Ariya entered the scene with her tremendous length off the tee, Brooke Henderson and Sei Young Kim emerged and are also quite long off the tee as well. Then Sung Hyun Park arrived, adding to the distance aspect of the game. As ably pointed out earlier, that means that even if Lydia had managed to gain 5 yards of length off of the tee, she still would have fallen down the “pecking order” in terms of driving length because the average number of players hitting the ball further continued to grow.

>

> Now there are also some interesting data that suggests Lydia’s strongest part of the game has experienced a slight decline as well (iron play, approaches, short game, etc). So, all in all, I think Lydia’s relative decline is somewhat complete. I do not want to say never again, but if she manages to improve facets of her game, she would put herself into contention more and more – and she is definitely talented enough to do that.

>

> So that brings us to the issue of her parents. I do agree with the supposition that her parents have gone from being a positive support to her (when she was younger) to becoming more of a detriment.

>

> When Lydia was 15 and 16 years of age, she simply went out and played golf and had fun – lots of it! Now, though, as she has matured into a young adult, the burden of expectations (from past success), coupled with the loss of confidence that comes with it, and the disturbing knowledge that her length off of the tee puts her at a relative disadvantage to many of the other top competitors seems to have weighed heavily on her **AND HER PARENTS**.

>

> As a person of Asian ancestry myself, there is no shortage of friends, family and acquaintances that can relate to the experience of over bearing parents and the expectations that the parents have of their children and for their children. Golf seems to be one of the sports in which Asian women can successfully compete and compete well. That can only add more fuel to the situation.

>

> Practising at a local golf facility with a golf academy, I myself, have observed several Asian parents (mostly Chinese), interfere with the professional coaches that are teaching their children. It was so bad at one point, that the coach refunded one parent’s money and refused to work with the child because of the negative interference.

>

> It is anecdotal – there are no quantifiable studies to document how often these situations are experienced, but I do believe that all things being equal, the interference of the parents can play such a detrimental role in the child’s development. To sum up, I do want to recognize that these are individuals and each individual responds to situations in their own ways. It is up to each person to negotiate their own way through golf and indeed life. So it seems Lydia has chosen her path and I think right or wrong, David needs to accept that.

>

>

 

Thanks for posting. So well written, honest, and well said. Add me as friend when we get that feature here please and thank you.

[Golf Dino]

> @Argonne69 said:

> No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

>

> I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

>

> I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

 

____________________

@Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

 

Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

 

[Golf Dino]

> @JAMH03 said:

> > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > > > What some of the DL might want to look into is what happens off of the tee. You can't teach someone a new skill when they have an unskilled know it all in the players other ear. It happens with Lydia, it happened with Michelle Wie. There's the problem, not a particular instructor.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Specifically about DL, some if the haters would fall off of their chairs if they knew who he's worked with behind the scenes over the years. But if course everyone here is an expert in every facet of the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > @buckeyefl , I have no beef with DL. In fact I think he's incredibly knowledgeable and a great instructor. The question begs though, why the radical change in her golf swing? Was this his idea/plan or do you think the parents pushed a particular agenda that he was compelled to implement.?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How could he be compelled to implement it?! If the swing was being pushed by her parents, he could have simply said, "No. That swing won't work."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's clear that Lydia was using the A swing early in her time with DL. That's his baby.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll let you figure that out.

> > > > >

> > > > > Heres a hint

> > > > >

> > > > > $$$

> > > >

> > > > So you're saying he's unethical. He'll teach something he doesn't believe in to make a buck. 'Wouldn't say you're wrong.

> > >

> > > If her parents convinced her that it was necessary to learn to draw the ball to add distance, I could see her buying in. If together they hire DL and tell him that's what they want him to teach her, and they're the ones paying the bill, I can see him taking her in that direction. Now I have no idea, but he also may have warned them that completely changing her swing pattern was not without risk...who knows? In any event, she seems to have lost the "secret sauce," and her swing is entirely different than the one she dominated with hitting those "doinky" but effective little fades.

> > _______________

> > I decided to wade into this discussion because I think that the discussion has become a little polarized – into an either you’re for Lydia (against Leadbetter) or for Leadbetter (against the Ko parents).

> >

> > So in an effort to bring some additional perspective to this discussion, please let me contribute. I apologize now for the length, but I wanted to “do justice” to the topic. I start with the following:

> >

> > Argonne – you’ve adopted the line of reasoning that DL appears to be the problem with Lydia’s decline. In response to Buckeye’s rationale, you have asked him to state a professional win by one of his players. Now, that line of reasoning supposes that DL is the primary problem behind Lydia’s relative decline. As such, it would be unfair to not include Lydia’s wins when she was working with DL. It’s a relatively minor point, but bears noting.

> >

> > Buckeye – it would appear that the line of reasoning that you have adopted is that the primary problem with Lydia’s relative decline is that of over-protective, over active parents that have interfered in the coach and player relationship. The effect of this is that this has negated any value that might have been gleaned from working with a swing coach.

> >

> > To this end though, there is a compelling argument that there are plenty of players that change caddies and coaches and develop into better players or rather, enjoy varying degrees of success. I think that Argonne and some others have offered some good examples. Yet, as compelling as this argument is though, there is a corollary to it – namely, that if DL was the fundamental problem that precipitated Lydia’s decline from No.1, then the logical extension of that is that Lydia should have regained her status as an elite among the elite players having changed coaches, etc. The problem is that did not occur and seems at this point in time of increasingly becoming less and less likely to occur in future.

> >

> > So what is the most plausible explanation? Well, I think in earlier parts of this thread, there was some sincere discussion as to what it was – namely that Lydia came onto the scene at a time when the Women’s game was starting to enter a new phase of its evolution – not too dissimilar to that of the men’s game of several years ago. She played extremely well, perhaps aided by her precociousness as a 15 year old and her well developed practice routines and a solid awareness of her own game.

> >

> > She was an accurate driver of the ball, not necessarily long, but long enough to compete at most events. Her approaches and proximity to the hole seemed to be significantly higher than most of the field and her putting and short game was really good. This translated into wins for her.

> >

> > But, the evolution of the Women’s game was afoot. Lexi was known primarily for her prodigious length off of the tee, Ariya entered the scene with her tremendous length off the tee, Brooke Henderson and Sei Young Kim emerged and are also quite long off the tee as well. Then Sung Hyun Park arrived, adding to the distance aspect of the game. As ably pointed out earlier, that means that even if Lydia had managed to gain 5 yards of length off of the tee, she still would have fallen down the “pecking order” in terms of driving length because the average number of players hitting the ball further continued to grow.

> >

> > Now there are also some interesting data that suggests Lydia’s strongest part of the game has experienced a slight decline as well (iron play, approaches, short game, etc). So, all in all, I think Lydia’s relative decline is somewhat complete. I do not want to say never again, but if she manages to improve facets of her game, she would put herself into contention more and more – and she is definitely talented enough to do that.

> >

> > So that brings us to the issue of her parents. I do agree with the supposition that her parents have gone from being a positive support to her (when she was younger) to becoming more of a detriment.

> >

> > When Lydia was 15 and 16 years of age, she simply went out and played golf and had fun – lots of it! Now, though, as she has matured into a young adult, the burden of expectations (from past success), coupled with the loss of confidence that comes with it, and the disturbing knowledge that her length off of the tee puts her at a relative disadvantage to many of the other top competitors seems to have weighed heavily on her **AND HER PARENTS**.

> >

> > As a person of Asian ancestry myself, there is no shortage of friends, family and acquaintances that can relate to the experience of over bearing parents and the expectations that the parents have of their children and for their children. Golf seems to be one of the sports in which Asian women can successfully compete and compete well. That can only add more fuel to the situation.

> >

> > Practising at a local golf facility with a golf academy, I myself, have observed several Asian parents (mostly Chinese), interfere with the professional coaches that are teaching their children. It was so bad at one point, that the coach refunded one parent’s money and refused to work with the child because of the negative interference.

> >

> > It is anecdotal – there are no quantifiable studies to document how often these situations are experienced, but I do believe that all things being equal, the interference of the parents can play such a detrimental role in the child’s development. To sum up, I do want to recognize that these are individuals and each individual responds to situations in their own ways. It is up to each person to negotiate their own way through golf and indeed life. So it seems Lydia has chosen her path and I think right or wrong, David needs to accept that.

> >

> >

>

> Thanks for posting. So well written, honest, and well said. Add me as friend when we get that feature here please and thank you.

 

___________________

Thank you for the kind words! If there is that function on here, then I'll definitely do that!

[Argonne69]

I believe Inbee Park is a good case study. She had three wins in 2014, and five wins in 2015. The same as Lydia. Inbee has had only two wins since 2015, and a gold medal. Lydia has had five wins in that time frame, and a silver medal. Granted, Inbee has played fewer events in 2017 and 2018, but she's pretty close to Lydia this season.

 

Inbee is slightly longer off the tee, and 10% more accurate, but is still a short hitter compared to the younger players. Her 74.26% GIR is 5% better than Lydia's, but she still isn't winning at the same rate that she did four seasons ago.

 

The stats that allowed these players to dominate a few years back have quickly become no better than mid pack.

[Titleist_PT23]

I agree with the general point about the competition. Unfortunately, for whatever reason Lydia's own game has slipped as well (nearly all of her stats are still sliding on an absolute level and she's roughly a shot higher in scoring vs. the 2014-2016 timeframe).

 

Inbee looks to be hitting it about the same (excluding 2016 when she was hurt) but her scoring has also slipped a bit under a shot per round. Most of the decline appears to be from putting.

 

Overall I don't disagree with the statement about stats that could dominate 5 years ago vs. mid pack now. It is an interesting question whether the players' games just aren't as sharp or if the courses are different that they can't get as close to the pins as they did a few years ago. It was mentioned before that many courses appear to be the same with only events like the USWO and KPMG Women's PGA really lengthening out the courses, so I tend to believe that Inbee is just off a bit more (I think it's clear Lydia is not close to the same).

 

Somewhat surprisingly, Inbee has had a lot of chances recently, including in the majors. I don't think any of them were choke jobs, but she seems to have stalled out a lot on the weekends and just hasn't been able to grab another big one for whatever reason. But for Inbee it probably doesn't matter much. She's the most accomplished South Korean golfer but even if she won a couple more it's unlikely she'd be the most influential. I guess she could move up the all-time rankings a bit, but eventually someone will do the same. She's also seems to have set the expectation for everyone that no one gives her crap for not getting it done. For example, SHP is taking a lot of heat for not getting it done either of the last two weeks. But an add'l win would change the narrative for her quite a bit so it's easy to understand why the criticism comes.

[Argonne69]

> @"Golf Dino" said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> >

> > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> >

> > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

>

> ____________________

> @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

>

> Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

>

 

No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

 

If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

[Argonne69]

> @agolf1 said:

> I agree with the general point about the competition. Unfortunately, for whatever reason Lydia's own game has slipped as well (nearly all of her stats are still sliding on an absolute level and she's roughly a shot higher in scoring vs. the 2014-2016 timeframe).

>

> Inbee looks to be hitting it about the same (excluding 2016 when she was hurt) but her scoring has also slipped a bit under a shot per round. Most of the decline appears to be from putting.

>

> Overall I don't disagree with the statement about stats that could dominate 5 years ago vs. mid pack now. It is an interesting question whether the players' games just aren't as sharp or if the courses are different that they can't get as close to the pins as they did a few years ago. It was mentioned before that many courses appear to be the same with only events like the USWO and KPMG Women's PGA really lengthening out the courses, so I tend to believe that Inbee is just off a bit more (I think it's clear Lydia is not close to the same).

>

> Somewhat surprisingly, Inbee has had a lot of chances recently, including in the majors. I don't think any of them were choke jobs, but she seems to have stalled out a lot on the weekends and just hasn't been able to grab another big one for whatever reason. But for Inbee it probably doesn't matter much. She's the most accomplished South Korean golfer but even if she won a couple more it's unlikely she'd be the most influential. I guess she could move up the all-time rankings a bit, but eventually someone will do the same. She's also seems to have set the expectation for everyone that no one gives her crap for not getting it done. For example, SHP is taking a lot of heat for not getting it done either of the last two weeks. But an add'l win would change the narrative for her quite a bit so it's easy to understand why the criticism comes.

 

There are only so many hours in a day. I firmly believe Lydia's dropoff in her short game, including wedges play and putting, is due to spending too much time farting around with her full swing. I **really** wish the LPGA published scrambling stats. We'd see if the numbers bare out my assumption rather quickly.

 

[dpb5031]

I'd like to hear from some of the more knowledgeable instructors on these forums. What are your thoughts on her radical swing changes? Why would any coach attempt to change the swing DNA of a player as dominant as Lydia?

 

I can understand minor tweaks, but the changes to her swing have not been minor. I'm not bashing Leadbetter as it may have been Lydia and/or her parents driving the bus, but why would anyone mess with a winning formula? It doesnt take much for a player to lose "the edge"...

[Stooch]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > >

> > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > >

> > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> >

> > ____________________

> > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> >

> > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> >

>

> No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

>

> If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

 

I view coaches or teachers a little differently, a complete overhaul is dangerousit can destroy your game. If you're gonna mess with your swing I'm less resistent to subtle changes within your current swing, such changes in club position at different intervals or body position at certain points in your swing. I think changing your swing to chase distance is a fools errand. Any player who wants to get longer should do it by working out and strengthening their core or by trying to increasing swing speed.

 

I guess here my different take on coaches, I think they can be a great help with short game issues but like all things you need to be taught by someone who knows what they're doing. But if an LPGA pro is looking for a teacher I'd avoid Leadbetter like the plague, but after watching Morgan Pressel the last couple months I might give Martin Hall a call lol

[buckeyefl]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > >

> > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > >

> > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> >

> > ____________________

> > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> >

> > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> >

>

> No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

>

> If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

 

Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

 

I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

 

Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

[buckeyefl]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I'd like to hear from some of the more knowledgeable instructors on these forums. What are your thoughts on her radical swing changes? Why would any coach attempt to change the swing DNA of a player as dominant as Lydia?

>

> I can understand minor tweaks, but the changes to her swing have not been minor. I'm not bashing Leadbetter as it may have been Lydia and/or her parents driving the bus, but why would anyone mess with a winning formula? It doesnt take much for a player to lose "the edge"...

 

I covered it in one of the links I provided. Daddy was reading in the media what people thought they should do and so he interfered more than usual. This isn't coming from just one source and it was out there long before DL spoke up.

Sorry it was in the other thread.

 

Gary Hermansson, the New Zealand team psychologist for the last five Olympic Games, met Ko in Rio last year. While he hasn't worked with her professionally, Hermansson has seen this type of situation develop between young athletes and their parents before.

 

He says the young athletes can sometimes bear a 'guilt' for the sacrifices their parents make as they grow in their chosen sport, with negative effects.

 

"People have been talking a lot about her being free to be herself rather than having the entourage or the family pressure on her—but you'd want to look at ways to do that constructively, not where it's like you try to brutalise the parents and say 'keep out of this," Hermansson tells VICE NZ.

 

"You might want to manage that a bit better and educate the parents around what they might be saying or doing. A lot of it is very subtle."

Hermansson says that, along with giving Ko the space she needs to rediscover her basic enjoyment of golf, her camp's priority should be linking up with professional help to help her get things back on track.

 

https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/vbm98m/remembering-the-time-lydia-kos-mum-gave-me-the-evils

 

http://www.koreadailyus.com/golf-daddy-light-and-shadow-of-korean-female-golfers/

 

Gyung-bin Lim, a commentator of JTBC Golf channel, has been living in the U.S. for 20 years and he analyzed Michelle Wie’s ups and downs. “When Michelle had a troubling slump, most of comments under her articles say that ‘her father is still ruining her,’ or ‘her parents should be away from her.’ I remember one of her games 3 Years ago, where she ended up with sloppy 4 putts on the green. She seemed very upset at something, which turned out to be something against her father. She was mad at her father’s constant reproach, so she showed her careless attitude by hitting almost 80 shots.” Lim also expressed concerns about Lydia Ko that she may follow Wie’s path, “Early success, early burnout.”

 

“A slight change in the swing stance leads to a huge difference in playing golf. But Lydia changed everything – swing coach, caddie and clubs – at once. **Her father started to worry about his daughter who statistically lost distance and accuracy recently, so he looked for an advice to improve her performance. But he should have left the decision up to experts”, said Lim.**

 

“Golf daddies did so many great jobs in raising Korean golfers to top players in major international golf championships,” said Won Park, In Gee Chun’s mentor. “Parents of professional golfers, they not only sacrifice for the children but also endure all the stresses, rumors, and obstacles around the golfer. That’s why these parents are so obsessive about reputation of their children. When a young golfer goes into a slump and starts to hear criticism, his or her parents get more emotional and recall the difficult times they had in the past.”

[dpb5031]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > I'd like to hear from some of the more knowledgeable instructors on these forums. What are your thoughts on her radical swing changes? Why would any coach attempt to change the swing DNA of a player as dominant as Lydia?

> >

> > I can understand minor tweaks, but the changes to her swing have not been minor. I'm not bashing Leadbetter as it may have been Lydia and/or her parents driving the bus, but why would anyone mess with a winning formula? It doesnt take much for a player to lose "the edge"...

>

> I covered it in one of the links I provided. Daddy was reading in the media what people thought they should do and so he interfered more than usual. This isn't coming from just one source and it was out there long before DL spoke up.

 

So you're saying the parents pushed for the radical swing change? I dont doubt it.

 

Still, I'm surprised Leadbetter, with all of his knowledge and experience, would agree to mess with something that was obviously working and was natural to Lydia.

 

Reminds me of Butch with DJ's bowed left wrist at top of backswing. He knew better than to try to change it

[ibradley]

I think Lydia just doesn’t have the length to dominate anymore. It may have messed with her mind.

[Argonne69]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > >

> > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > >

> > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > >

> > > ____________________

> > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > >

> > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > >

> >

> > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> >

> > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

>

> Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

>

> I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

>

> Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

 

Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

 

I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

 

Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

 

Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

 

[NoFancyUsername.]

 

Interesting read.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7335673/How-unbelievably-talented-golf-player-ordinary-former-coach-blames-PARENTS.html

[Stooch]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > >

> > > > ____________________

> > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > >

> > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > >

> > >

> > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > >

> > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> >

> > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> >

> > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> >

> > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

>

> Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

>

> I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

>

> Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

>

> Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

>

 

I can't remember but was Danielle Kang with DL when she the KPMG or had she switched to Butch Harmon by then?

[Argonne69]

> @Stooch said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > >

> > > > > ____________________

> > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > >

> > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > >

> > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > >

> > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > >

> > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> >

> > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> >

> > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> >

> > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> >

> > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> >

>

> I can't remember but was Danielle Kang with DL when she the KPMG or had she switched to Butch Harmon by then?

 

I believe your're right. DK worked with DL for years, and had one win at the KPMG. She dumped DL for Butch in late 2018, and she won a month later. Listening to Danielle talk about Butch, it sounds like he focuses more on the mental side of her game, which has been her biggest issue for years.

 

[18majors]

> @Stooch said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > >

> > > > > ____________________

> > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > >

> > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > >

> > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > >

> > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > >

> > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> >

> > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> >

> > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> >

> > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> >

> > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> >

>

> I can't remember but was Danielle Kang with DL when she the KPMG or had she switched to Butch Harmon by then?

 

Jessica and Nelly Korda have been at Leadbetter Academy all their lives; even though their direct coach isn't DL.

[dpb5031]

> @18majors said:

> > @Stooch said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ____________________

> > > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > > >

> > > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > > >

> > > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > > >

> > > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> > >

> > > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> > >

> > > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> > >

> > > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> > >

> > > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> > >

> >

> > I can't remember but was Danielle Kang with DL when she the KPMG or had she switched to Butch Harmon by then?

>

> Jessica and Nelly Korda have been at Leadbetter Academy all their lives; even though their direct coach isn't DL.

 

They have excellent golf swings IMO, especially for being such tall girls.