3 years later for Lydia Ko...

[Titleist_PT23]

Personally, I think Lydia deserves as much of the heat for the decline from 2014 to 2016 and onwards as Leadbetter. She hired him and made the changes voluntarily, no?

 

I also don't believe you win as much as she did during those 3 years with something that was so bad.

 

That being said, there are very few players that have technically perfect swings in all respects. And if they do, except early 2000s Tiger, I'm not sure they win more. I am starting to believe that when a player starts a swing change, it gets them working harder, focused more. The new swing is hardly better or worse overall, it just has different trade-offs. In the short-term (after initial familiarity stage) the talented player can manage anything and the addl effort being put in can make things look better. Over an extended period once the "new drug" wears off, the plus and minus of the swing start to show.

 

I would also say that by the time you have been playing for 10 years or so, you are who you are swinging the club. While a complete overhaul can work, I'm not sure the odds are worth it vs making minor tweaks and trying to win with what you have.

[buckeyefl]

> @Argonne69 said:

> The competition is not standing still, though. Her GIR stat in 2016 was good for 31st. Today she's 59th. Her driving accuracy in 2016 was good for 68th. Today she's #95.

>

 

That has nothing to do with the competition though. The constant changes are more to blame than the competition getting better. Hopefully she learns to get away from the parents and make her own decisions.

[Shilgy]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > The competition is not standing still, though. Her GIR stat in 2016 was good for 31st. Today she's 59th. Her driving accuracy in 2016 was good for 68th. Today she's #95.

> >

>

> That has nothing to do with the competition though. The constant changes are more to blame than the competition getting better. Hopefully she learns to get away from the parents and make her own decisions.

 

If the same game is lower ranked than in the past how is that not the competition? If a player averaged 70 strokes per round and was 10th on tour one year and averaged 70 strokes per round a few years later but was 70th on tour that's her parents fault?

That is the point Argonne was making. Perhaps you did not know that? Her performance did not change. But that performance was outdone by more of her peers than in the past.

[TheInfidel]

Two words - LEAD POISONING.

[Ignatius Reilly]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > The competition is not standing still, though. Her GIR stat in 2016 was good for 31st. Today she's 59th. Her driving accuracy in 2016 was good for 68th. Today she's #95.

> > >

> >

> > That has nothing to do with the competition though. The constant changes are more to blame than the competition getting better. Hopefully she learns to get away from the parents and make her own decisions.

>

> If the same game is lower ranked than in the past how is that not the competition? If a player averaged 70 strokes per round and was 10th on tour one year and averaged 70 strokes per round a few years later but was 70th on tour that's her parents fault?

> That is the point Argonne was making. Perhaps you did not know that? Her performance did not change. But that performance was outdone by more of her peers than in the past.

 

I'll just toss out that if she's made too many changes (caddies, coaches, swing) and her game has dropped off from when she was #1, then why should she make another change with her parents? Seems like she did okay with them around. Like, really okay....

[buckeyefl]

Her game dropped off because of the changes which were initiated by Mommy and daddy. She shouldn't have left her coach and the parents should have left ( most) things alone. Instead of firing people right and left they should have just things alone and guarded her against the big mistakes like chasing distance.

 

Her parents are not the best career influence and if you listen closely to broadcasts you will even hear the announcers very subtly mention it which means it's particularly bad.

[Argonne69]

> @agolf1 said:

> Personally, I think Lydia deserves as much of the heat for the decline from 2014 to 2016 and onwards as Leadbetter. She hired him and made the changes voluntarily, no?

>

> I also don't believe you win as much as she did during those 3 years with something that was so bad.

>

> That being said, there are very few players that have technically perfect swings in all respects. And if they do, except early 2000s Tiger, I'm not sure they win more. I am starting to believe that when a player starts a swing change, it gets them working harder, focused more. The new swing is hardly better or worse overall, it just has different trade-offs. In the short-term (after initial familiarity stage) the talented player can manage anything and the addl effort being put in can make things look better. Over an extended period once the "new drug" wears off, the plus and minus of the swing start to show.

>

> I would also say that by the time you have been playing for 10 years or so, you are who you are swinging the club. While a complete overhaul can work, I'm not sure the odds are worth it vs making minor tweaks and trying to win with what you have.

 

It's a valid point. As Obi Wan Kenobi said, "Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?" Lydia won three professional tournaments as an amateur, including back to back LPGA events (CN Canadian Women's Open). Going to Leadbetter was a curious choice. His track record with LPGA players up to that point was mediocre at best. Michelle Wie had fewer wins as a pro at that point than Lydia. Paula had won only once in five years after a great start as a pro in 2005.

 

I was looking at driving distances for 2019 and 2017. There are a number of players who've picked up some decent yardage (Sung Hyun +11 , Brooke +13, Nelly +12 , Amy +12 ), Nasa +15, In-Kyung +19), so it certainly is possible to improve. I have no idea what Leadbetter was teaching that allowed the #1 player in the world to hit it _shorter_.

 

[RainShadow]

I blame PXG. She should have stayed with Callaway.

And Leadbetter, of course.

 

[GoGoErky]

> @RainShadow said:

> I blame PXG. She should have stayed with Callaway.

> And Leadbetter, of course.

>

 

What is pxg’s or leadbetter’s fault? It was shown in here earlier here stats are relatively the same with pxg as Callaway time and she’s had more success under leadbetter than since she left him

[RainShadow]

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @RainShadow said:

> > I blame PXG. She should have stayed with Callaway.

> > And Leadbetter, of course.

> >

>

> What is pxg’s or leadbetter’s fault? It was shown in here earlier here stats are relatively the same with pxg as Callaway time and she’s had more success under leadbetter than since she left him

She was playing better before Leadbetter and while at Callaway. More wins. Stats be damned....

 

 

[Shilgy]

> @RainShadow said:

> > @GoGoErky said:

> > > @RainShadow said:

> > > I blame PXG. She should have stayed with Callaway.

> > > And Leadbetter, of course.

> > >

> >

> > What is pxg’s or leadbetter’s fault? It was shown in here earlier here stats are relatively the same with pxg as Callaway time and she’s had more success under leadbetter than since she left him

> She was playing better before Leadbetter and while at Callaway. More wins. Stats be damned....

>

>

 

What if her competition was worse?

 

That is where the stats come in. If she is doing everything the same, length... GIR...., but she is lower in the rankings for each stat it stands to reason that is why she is not having as good results.

 

Am extreme example of what I'm saying is take your clubs best player. Maybe he wins the Club Championship every year.

Put him on the PGA Tour with the same numbers and he'd get lapped. Ko is experiencing a mini version of that.

[GoGoErky]

> @RainShadow said:

> > @GoGoErky said:

> > > @RainShadow said:

> > > I blame PXG. She should have stayed with Callaway.

> > > And Leadbetter, of course.

> > >

> >

> > What is pxg’s or leadbetter’s fault? It was shown in here earlier here stats are relatively the same with pxg as Callaway time and she’s had more success under leadbetter than since she left him

> She was playing better before Leadbetter and while at Callaway. More wins. Stats be damned....

>

>

 

Better competition now than 3 years ago. If one stays stagnant and the competition gets better that aren’t going to do as good. But since everyone wants to hate on pxg and leadbetter those are easy targets to say they are the fault.

[LICC]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > The competition is not standing still, though. Her GIR stat in 2016 was good for 31st. Today she's 59th. Her driving accuracy in 2016 was good for 68th. Today she's #95.

> > >

> >

> > That has nothing to do with the competition though. The constant changes are more to blame than the competition getting better. Hopefully she learns to get away from the parents and make her own decisions.

>

> If the same game is lower ranked than in the past how is that not the competition? If a player averaged 70 strokes per round and was 10th on tour one year and averaged 70 strokes per round a few years later but was 70th on tour that's her parents fault?

> That is the point Argonne was making. Perhaps you did not know that? Her performance did not change. But that performance was outdone by more of her peers than in the past.

 

Her performance has changed. It has gotten significantly worse from her peak.

[Shilgy]

It is am interesting case. She is a yard and a half longer than in 2014. BUT... She is now ranked 142nd in distance and was 66th in 2014. The question becomes..... In spite of the scoring at a few events are the courses set up with more difficulty than in the past? The players are definitely much longer than in the past. Does that mean pins are being set closer to edges? Are greens firmer and faster? I was a member at Moon Valley in Phoenix when the ladies played there. 6600 was quite long for them at the time as I recall and now seems closer to the norm.

Ko is quite similar to Spieth. A couple years that now appear to be an aberation from the norm. In her career she's had three seasons averaging about 70, two at about 69.5, and so far this year about 70.5. Big difference is the field scoring. In 2013 just 18 players averaged below 71.0 strokes per round. So far this year 37 are doing so. 2018 it was 30.

Same performance will get you worse results and this year she is a half stroke worse. For the record she was still 7th in scoring last year.

[Argonne69]

There are a few tournaments where the length has been stretched, but for the most part the lengths are the same, and the courses are set up the same. Players are hitting it farther, and it's reflected in the lower scoring averages for the top players.

 

I attribute Lydia's increase in scoring to simply not hitting the ball close enough to the hole for birdie opportunities. With all the time she's spent tinkering with her full swing, her wedge game appears to have struggled.

[Shilgy]

> @Argonne69 said:

> There are a few tournaments where the length has been stretched, but for the most part the lengths are the same, and the courses are set up the same. Players are hitting it farther, and it's reflected in the lower scoring averages for the top players.

>

> I attribute Lydia's increase in scoring to simply not hitting the ball close enough to the hole for birdie opportunities. With all the time she's spent tinkering with her full swing, her wedge game appears to have struggled.

 

Do we really know the courses are set up the same? Here in Phoenix the pins seemed more tucked but it didn't show the ladies down.

[Argonne69]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > There are a few tournaments where the length has been stretched, but for the most part the lengths are the same, and the courses are set up the same. Players are hitting it farther, and it's reflected in the lower scoring averages for the top players.

> >

> > I attribute Lydia's increase in scoring to simply not hitting the ball close enough to the hole for birdie opportunities. With all the time she's spent tinkering with her full swing, her wedge game appears to have struggled.

>

> Do we really know the courses are set up the same? Here in Phoenix the pins seemed more tucked but it didn't show the ladies down.

 

Can you really tuck pins at Wildfire? It's a resort course. It's not really designed with tournament play in mind.

[MelloYello]

We should also keep in mind that driving distance may not be the perfect representation of a player's overall "power."

 

Lydia has never struck me as someone who's particularly long with the irons. I've been rather surprised over the last couple of years as I see more and more of the top players on the LPGA hitting their short irons more or less the same distance I do (8i ~ 150yds).

 

Whatever her driving distance, I never got that impression watching Lydia Ko. She always seemed much more reserved and reliant upon mid-iron accuracy. It was her outstanding ability to stick a 5-hybrid close from 175-yds that made her special along with a superb short game.

 

Again, that's totally just my recollection.

[Argonne69]

> @MelloYello said:

> We should also keep in mind that driving distance may not be the perfect representation of a player's overall "power."

>

> Lydia has never struck me as someone who's particularly long with the irons. I've been rather surprised over the last couple of years as I see more and more of the top players on the LPGA hitting their short irons more or less the same distance I do (8i ~ 150yds).

>

> Whatever her driving distance, I never got that impression watching Lydia Ko. She always seemed much more reserved and reliant upon mid-iron accuracy. It was her outstanding ability to stick a 5-hybrid close from 175-yds that made her special along with a superb short game.

>

> Again, that's totally just my recollection.

 

Driving distance is measured on only two holes, and it includes drives that don't find the fairway. A few missed fairways can skew the results. I've seen players average 240 yds one day, and 260 yds the next. That's not a swing issue, but a data issue. The tour has stated that they're going to introduce a ShotLink-type system that measures every shot. If they do, we'll get better results.

 

That said, Lydia is one of the shorter hitters out there. If one tosses out the best and worst round averages, she's in the 250 yd range. In the past she made up for it with a superb short game, and a strong putter. There has to be pressure on her iron game when her fellow competitors are hitting it farther each year. Most of the top players have added significant distance over the past few years, probably due to a combination of fitness, technique, club technology/fitting, and ball improvements. Sung Hyun (+9), Brooke (+12), Jin Young (+8), and Ariya (+15), all multiple time winners in the past few years, have picked up yardage since 2017/18.

[MelloYello]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > We should also keep in mind that driving distance may not be the perfect representation of a player's overall "power."

> >

> > Lydia has never struck me as someone who's particularly long with the irons. I've been rather surprised over the last couple of years as I see more and more of the top players on the LPGA hitting their short irons more or less the same distance I do (8i ~ 150yds).

> >

> > Whatever her driving distance, I never got that impression watching Lydia Ko. She always seemed much more reserved and reliant upon mid-iron accuracy. It was her outstanding ability to stick a 5-hybrid close from 175-yds that made her special along with a superb short game.

> >

> > Again, that's totally just my recollection.

>

> Driving distance is measured on only two holes, and it includes drives that don't find the fairway. A few missed fairways can skew the results. I've seen players average 240 yds one day, and 260 yds the next. That's not a swing issue, but a data issue. The tour has stated that they're going to introduce a ShotLink-type system that measures every shot. If they do, we'll get better results.

>

> That said, Lydia is one of the shorter hitters out there. If one tosses out the best and worst round averages, she's in the 250 yd range. In the past she made up for it with a superb short game, and a strong putter. There has to be pressure on her iron game when her fellow competitors are hitting it farther each year. Most of the top players have added significant distance over the past few years, probably due to a combination of fitness, technique, club technology/fitting, and ball improvements. Sung Hyun (+9), Brooke (+12), Jin Young (+8), and Ariya (+15), all multiple time winners in the past few years, have picked up yardage since 2017/18.

 

Is it possible that her driving rank of 60-something back in the day was inflated?

 

I'm generally on your side of the argument but dropping as far as she has in 2-3 years is pretty nuts. I would believe that over a decade but over 2-3 years things shouldn't be as black and white as they are.

[Argonne69]

I don't think it was inflated. Players like Stacy Lewis, So Yeon, and Na Yeon were in that 248 to 252 range in 2015. Inbee won five times that year. Na Yeon won twice. I don't think driving was as important. Sei Young won three times, but she was only averaging 263. Now that the top players are pushing 270+, the difference of 2 to 3 club lengths is starting to matter.

 

In the span of 2016 to 2019, Brooke has averaged 263, 263, 268, 276. Ariya: 263, 256 (driving iron), 266, 271. Minjee: 260, 258, 258, 267. Sung Hyun: X, 271, 270, 279.

 

The jump from 2017 to 2018 was noticeable. The jump from 2018 to 2019 is really noticeable. Heck, Nelly and Jessica have picked up 10 yds in just this past season.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Argonne69 said:

> I don't think it was inflated. Players like Stacy Lewis, So Yeon, and Na Yeon were in that 248 to 252 range in 2015. Inbee won five times that year. Na Yeon won twice. I don't think driving was as important. Sei Young won three times, but she was only averaging 263. Now that the top players are pushing 270+, the difference of 2 to 3 club lengths is starting to matter.

>

> In the span of 2016 to 2019, Brooke has averaged 263, 263, 268, 276. Ariya: 263, 256 (driving iron), 266, 271. Minjee: 260, 258, 258, 267. Sung Hyun: X, 271, 270, 279.

>

> The jump from 2017 to 2018 was noticeable. The jump from 2018 to 2019 is really noticeable. Heck, Nelly and Jessica have picked up 10 yds in just this past season.

It's interesting how much yardage the existing set of players has been able to add. I figured the number would skew higher over time as younger players joined. None of the people listed above are "old" (and no different than Lydia) but they've been able to add yards. I think the PGA Tour average has picked up the last couple of years too after being relatively stagnant for a while.

 

From the early part of the decade, I think Ryu added about 10 yards (~250 to ~260 at her best). Minjee was ranked 17th in 2015 and is now longer but down to 31st (seems to have been as low as mid-40s at points this year). It seems like ~255-260 would have been about normal/expected for Lydia (and In Gee) at this point to keep pace.

[18majors]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > I don't think it was inflated. Players like Stacy Lewis, So Yeon, and Na Yeon were in that 248 to 252 range in 2015. Inbee won five times that year. Na Yeon won twice. I don't think driving was as important. Sei Young won three times, but she was only averaging 263. Now that the top players are pushing 270+, the difference of 2 to 3 club lengths is starting to matter.

> >

> > In the span of 2016 to 2019, Brooke has averaged 263, 263, 268, 276. Ariya: 263, 256 (driving iron), 266, 271. Minjee: 260, 258, 258, 267. Sung Hyun: X, 271, 270, 279.

> >

> > The jump from 2017 to 2018 was noticeable. The jump from 2018 to 2019 is really noticeable. Heck, Nelly and Jessica have picked up 10 yds in just this past season.

> It's interesting how much yardage the existing set of players has been able to add. I figured the number would skew higher over time as younger players joined. None of the people listed above are "old" (and no different than Lydia) but they've been able to add yards. I think the PGA Tour average has picked up the last couple of years too after being relatively stagnant for a while.

>

> From the early part of the decade, I think Ryu added about 10 yards (~250 to ~260 at her best). Minjee was ranked 17th in 2015 and is now longer but down to 31st (seems to have been as low as mid-40s at points this year). It seems like ~255-260 would have been about normal/expected for Lydia (and In Gee) at this point to keep pace.

 

At Thornberry Creek, Shanshan made a few 30-50 ft. putts and hit 4-5 shots to within 3-4 ft. of the hole to win the tournament.

It took all stars aligned for medium length players to win; something like that just don't happen often.

[Shilgy]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > There are a few tournaments where the length has been stretched, but for the most part the lengths are the same, and the courses are set up the same. Players are hitting it farther, and it's reflected in the lower scoring averages for the top players.

> > >

> > > I attribute Lydia's increase in scoring to simply not hitting the ball close enough to the hole for birdie opportunities. With all the time she's spent tinkering with her full swing, her wedge game appears to have struggled.

> >

> > Do we really know the courses are set up the same? Here in Phoenix the pins seemed more tucked but it didn't show the ladies down.

>

> Can you really tuck pins at Wildfire? It's a resort course. It's not really designed with tournament play in mind.

 

Would you prefer closer to the edges? And yes, there are holes where pins can be tucked. #2 comes to mind. A semi reachable par 5 at 550. Fridays round the pin was front right, right behind the front bunker which spreads about two thirds of the green.

[golfbuddy]

When Lydia first appeared on the scene, she seemed so happy and carefree . . . . and won. Now it is business. Changing clubs, coaches, more traveling, etc. I liked the "old" Lydia and wish her the best.

[OBbogey5]

I honestly think she’s too light. She’s tiny.

[Divot License]

I first saw Lydia play back in 2014, she hit the ball wonderfully and was a joy to watch. I watched her for a few holes last week and also followed her for 9 holes last year at Lytham and it was different. He ball striking doesn't seem the same, her demeanour is different and she's just not got the same aura she used to have.

 

I've read through this great thread and I'm not sure there is one correct answer. The stats seem to be interpret able either way, we all know her history of switching and changing every year but for me it simply feels like expectations and pressure have gotten to her.

In her head she knows she's only 22, has incredible talent, was the undisputed best in the world and that has to have an effect. She has to be wondering what happened and asking why she's not still challenging in the same way. I think that leads to her putting too much pressure on her self to get it back.

 

I don't have an answer to her decline but I would like to see her get s fresh start and stick with it. Change clubs, caddie and coach, take the rest of the season to "sort it all out" and come out next season ready to return to the upper echelons of the game.

 

just my 2 cents

[xxio]

Who would've thought, bomb and gouge on the LPGA.

[buckeyefl]

> @xxio said:

> Who would've thought, bomb and gouge on the LPGA.

 

It's not by any stretch.

[xxio]

The only player in the top 10 who is not way above average off the tee is Inbee. That is from her previous success. I suspect a drop off even further unless she catches fire and matches these girls. Inbee is no longer always no1-2 threat when teeing up. The longer ladies are.

 

Lexi and Ariya miss fairways but have short irons in.

Brook is only there because she has shorter clubs in. If she was average off the tee she would have even less birdie putts to miss.

 

I am a Lydia, Inbee, JY fan in that order because I relate to their games more.