Still hitting lots of blocks, hooks, occasional shank

[Snarkesor]

 

> @Krt22 said:

> ^^ You can only turn like Rory if your arms are in sync with your pivot, that is very hard to do when your arms get so deep and then you need to spend what little time you have in transition manipulating the club from such an extreme position

>

> OP..I agree extension is a good thing, but you cant look at that and only that while ignoring everything else. Your problem is you are "still" hitting hooks/blocks/shanks, and the answer to that is still largely backswing related IMO. That's doesn't mean you need to go back to the old swing, but it is very easy for ams to overdo things in the other direction (me being 100% guilty of this as well!)

 

For sure— I suppose I'm just reacting to the notion that I was in a better position at the top in my older swing, which goes against the teaching of my instructor as well as the results I've been getting on the course. Still have a lot of work to do, obviously. I'm going to definitely try to train my arms better- starting with trying to really figure out my takeaway and hinge.

[Snarkesor]

> @wagolfer7 said:

> Old Swing - better takeaway and position on the top - absolutely no hip rotation - this made it so you couldn't get a deeper extension as you call it

>

> New Swing - Matt Wolfe looking takeaway, over the line at the top - Good Hip Rotation - this is the difference and why you feel the new swing is better. By allowing you hips to open up, you are getting a deeper backswing. However with your new position at the top, it's very hard to get consistent results.

>

> Solution - get a good instructor to walk you through the proper steps to correct your takeaway, without removing your ability to rotate your hips how you are now.

>

> Quick Solution - Posture - so many amateurs don't realize how much posture can influence your swing path. You need to get a little taller, make sure your hips are not pointing down. Your old swing, your hips are tilted down, this makes it so you can't rotate them. Also get closer to the ball. I don't know what iron you are using in your original post, but you are standing too far away. When you do that, you have no choice but to swing flat, unless you make an effort not to. Which is what you are doing now. You have to make a move with your arms (lifting) to not go flat. Stand taller, closer to the ball, and you'll realize you can rotate your shoulders and not get too far inside.

>

>

>

Sounds like great analysis. I think you're right that there needs to be more of a synthesis between what I was doing before and now- rotation I have now, with the takeaway I had before.

 

[KMeloney]

> @Snarkesor said:

> I do take lessons- though not as often as I'd like. I don't mean to seem defensive, but the old backswing position is something that we've worked hard to get away from. The proof is that my handicap has dropped precipitously as I've incorporated more extension into my backswing, and my ball striking in terms of both distance and general consistency is much improved.

>

>

>

> Now, I do agree that I need to work on my takeaway and wrist conditions, particularly at the top of my backswing.

 

What are these top and bottom pics showing here?

[Snarkesor]

> @KMeloney said:

> > @Snarkesor said:

> > I do take lessons- though not as often as I'd like. I don't mean to seem defensive, but the old backswing position is something that we've worked hard to get away from. The proof is that my handicap has dropped precipitously as I've incorporated more extension into my backswing, and my ball striking in terms of both distance and general consistency is much improved.

> >

> >

> >

> > Now, I do agree that I need to work on my takeaway and wrist conditions, particularly at the top of my backswing.

>

> What are these top and bottom pics showing here?

 

 

Just showing the side on images at the top of my current backswing and from a year ago. Wrist position aside, I think the current one shows a much better turn back.

[Krt22]

> @Snarkesor said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > > @Snarkesor said:

> > > I do take lessons- though not as often as I'd like. I don't mean to seem defensive, but the old backswing position is something that we've worked hard to get away from. The proof is that my handicap has dropped precipitously as I've incorporated more extension into my backswing, and my ball striking in terms of both distance and general consistency is much improved.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Now, I do agree that I need to work on my takeaway and wrist conditions, particularly at the top of my backswing.

> >

> > What are these top and bottom pics showing here?

>

>

> Just showing the side on images at the top of my current backswing and from a year ago. Wrist position aside, I think the current one shows a much better turn back.

 

Bigger turn yes, but depending on which school of thought you are in, some may say your lead knee is now kicking in too much now, which will make creating room for the arms harder, which is further compounded by how behind you the arms get in the backswing as well.

[wagolfer7]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Snarkesor said:

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > @Snarkesor said:

> > > > I do take lessons- though not as often as I'd like. I don't mean to seem defensive, but the old backswing position is something that we've worked hard to get away from. The proof is that my handicap has dropped precipitously as I've incorporated more extension into my backswing, and my ball striking in terms of both distance and general consistency is much improved.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Now, I do agree that I need to work on my takeaway and wrist conditions, particularly at the top of my backswing.

> > >

> > > What are these top and bottom pics showing here?

> >

> >

> > Just showing the side on images at the top of my current backswing and from a year ago. Wrist position aside, I think the current one shows a much better turn back.

>

> Bigger turn yes, but depending on which school of thought you are in, some may say your lead knee is now kicking in too much now, which will make creating room for the arms harder, which is further compounded by how behind you the arms get in the backswing as well.

 

As well as his shoulder moving his head further from the ball.

[Snarkesor]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @Snarkesor said:

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > @Snarkesor said:

> > > > I do take lessons- though not as often as I'd like. I don't mean to seem defensive, but the old backswing position is something that we've worked hard to get away from. The proof is that my handicap has dropped precipitously as I've incorporated more extension into my backswing, and my ball striking in terms of both distance and general consistency is much improved.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Now, I do agree that I need to work on my takeaway and wrist conditions, particularly at the top of my backswing.

> > >

> > > What are these top and bottom pics showing here?

> >

> >

> > Just showing the side on images at the top of my current backswing and from a year ago. Wrist position aside, I think the current one shows a much better turn back.

>

> Bigger turn yes, but depending on which school of thought you are in, some may say your lead knee is now kicking in too much now, which will make creating room for the arms harder, which is further compounded by how behind you the arms get in the backswing as well.

 

 

Yes, my instructor wants to see my front knee work more towards the ball as opposed to back towards my left leg in the back swing.

 

What can I do to keep my arms from getting so deep?

 

[Krt22]

> @Snarkesor said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @Snarkesor said:

> > > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > > @Snarkesor said:

> > > > > I do take lessons- though not as often as I'd like. I don't mean to seem defensive, but the old backswing position is something that we've worked hard to get away from. The proof is that my handicap has dropped precipitously as I've incorporated more extension into my backswing, and my ball striking in terms of both distance and general consistency is much improved.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, I do agree that I need to work on my takeaway and wrist conditions, particularly at the top of my backswing.

> > > >

> > > > What are these top and bottom pics showing here?

> > >

> > >

> > > Just showing the side on images at the top of my current backswing and from a year ago. Wrist position aside, I think the current one shows a much better turn back.

> >

> > Bigger turn yes, but depending on which school of thought you are in, some may say your lead knee is now kicking in too much now, which will make creating room for the arms harder, which is further compounded by how behind you the arms get in the backswing as well.

>

>

> Yes, my instructor wants to see my front knee work more towards the ball as opposed to back towards my left leg in the back swing.

>

> What can I do to keep my arms from getting so deep?

>

 

I have/had the same issue, it's tough to shake if you have done it a long time, my thought is a P2 to just hinge the club straight up while finishing your shoulder turn.

[glk]

Culprit is your left arm - instead of folding it pulls backs and drags your right arm across your chest then folds - reason why you are more flat in old swing and with your new swing you take the club outside and steeper but you still use the right arm to drag the club too much across you. Inside takeaway can be club head behind the hands too early or arms working too across the chest (or a combo of both) - you have the later. Gets you too deep and you don't recover in transition so you end up with arms trailing, etc.

taking the club away outside isn’t helping either.

 

Pretty simple drill with check points for backswing.

 

Edited cause noted you are a lefty. Sorry.

[Krt22]

Nice vid, I like Cogorno and Chris Ryan's stock top of the backswing. Plenty of rotation/extension in both.

[glk]

> @Krt22 said:

> Nice vid, I like Cogorno and Chris Ryan's stock top of the backswing. Plenty of rotation/extension in both.

 

Simple and effective. Arms do just what they need to do by end of takeaway then it the pivot. Combo this with the planemate and you might have something, eh. But lots of little details in mastering a good arm action and body pivot.

 

Zach Allen has a nice drill to feel where you should be at the top. From setup, put club on you trail shoulder, make a pivot, extend arms - gets those arms in a great spot and great way to learn what they should “feel” like at the top. Helps to “feel” the destination. I do it at least once a month in front of a mirror both fo and Dtl. I’m one of those idiots that checks my setup weekly too.

[KMeloney]

> @Snarkesor said:

> Just showing the side on images at the top of my current backswing and from a year ago. Wrist position aside, I think the current one shows a much better turn back.

 

Ok, so the top one is the new, and the bottom is the old, yes?

 

Personally, I am/was hoping that'd be the case. I, for one, really have to have my lead knee bend out toward the ball and NOT in toward my back knee. If I don't, then my weight goes too far back over (and past?) my trail foot, and I get stuck back there. When I get too much weight back there, I can't shift in enough time, everything stalls, and I hit hooks.

 

Now, my main swing thought is to have my front knee go out as I turn my hips (this keeps my pivot centered while letting the pressure go to my rear heel and front toe). Then, if I keep my levels, all I have to do is straighten my front leg, and it opens my hips and pulls me into a proper hitting position. It also eliminates a slide forward. Lot of speed, too.

[DShepley]

I'd just work on path if I was you. Less inside out and more neutral. Drop a range bucket or empty water bottle outside and target side of the ball while you hit to force you to react and have a straighter path. You have an athletic move, so I wouldn't worry much about positions at the top, etc, just learn to get the club head moving on a better path through impact and the rest will get better. Golf is what the ball does, not how your swing looks.

[Snarkesor]

Thanks to everyone for all of the very thoughtful comments. I think the first order of business needs to be correcting takeaway and the way I hinge the club up, with a general aim to better incorporate my arms with my pivot. It's likely that I developed the weird outside takeaway move I do to compensate for an underlying inside move which is occurring with respect to the way my left arm (rear arm in my case) works behind my body. I suspect that has its roots from my forehand from tennis days growing up, where I had a huge looping motion. It's something I think you can get away with in tennis, to good effect as well, but in golf the arms need a much better connection to the pivot.

 

It's something I've noticed that while there seems to be a lot of content on youtube and around the web about the initial takeaway, there's much less about what should occur immediately after—how the club should hinge up, how the rear arm folds, how the lead arm rotates, etc. Most of what I see is just something along the lines of perform a good takeaway then turn to the top. With my flaws, that's just not enough detail...

[glk]

> @Snarkesor said:

> Thanks to everyone for all of the very thoughtful comments. I think the first order of business needs to be correcting takeaway and the way I hinge the club up, with a general aim to better incorporate my arms with my pivot. It's likely that I developed the weird outside takeaway move I do to compensate for an underlying inside move which is occurring with respect to the way my left arm (rear arm in my case) works behind my body. I suspect that has its roots from my forehand from tennis days growing up, where I had a huge looping motion. It's something I think you can get away with in tennis, to good effect as well, but in golf the arms need a much better connection to the pivot.

>

> It's something I've noticed that while there seems to be a lot of content on youtube and around the web about the initial takeaway, there's much less about what should occur immediately after—how the club should hinge up, how the rear arm folds, how the lead arm rotates, etc. Most of what I see is just something along the lines of perform a good takeaway then turn to the top. With my flaws, that's just not enough detail...

 

A couple of feels I use when I work on takeaway and backswing is to feel my elbow of my lead arm always points to the ground - and that my trail arm elbow also points to the ground when it folds. Hard to early roll or over roll the lead arm if you keep the elbow pointing down - and also difficult to pull the trail arm behind you if you feel it's elbow pointing to the ground. Like all things they don't have to exactly point at the ground but certainly you don't want them pointed significantly away from you (not really bad but just makes the adjust in transition more difficult)

[Krt22]

Monte's the efficient swing video series has a really good break down of all 3 key positions of the backswing (shaft parallel, left arm parallel, top of the swing), for both the arms/wrists as well as the lower body. All the info is out there on youtube, but you need to dig through quite a bit of content to put it all together. The video series it all there is a concise easy to follow format.

[Atrayn]

IMHO I think you have an issue with what “extension” in the backswing is.

[http://youtu.be/xTrc3eixnzo](https://youtu.be/xTrc3eixnzo "https://youtu.be/xTrc3eixnzo")

[Snarkesor]

> @Atrayn said:

> IMHO I think you have an issue with what “extension” in the backswing is.

> [http://youtu.be/xTrc3eixnzo](https://youtu.be/xTrc3eixnzo "https://youtu.be/xTrc3eixnzo")

 

Can you elaborate? I think I have plenty of the extension as it’s described in the video you linked, but my arm movements are completely out of sync with it.

[Atrayn]

When you are trying to get more extension, what is your thought? There’s a lot in that video

[Atrayn]

Of the two images above you have more arm extension or “push away” in the one with the baseball hat. More body extension in the 2nd. You need to blend the two a bit better.

[Nard_S]

You received a lot of solid advice here, the big kahuna is trail arm action and what has helped with my own (trail issues) is allowing and even pro actively rotate it's forearm internally (CW for lefty). Not mentioned but have noticed is that lead side in transition is too glued to body. Getting lead shoulder to drop slightly and rotate away from head is something that will need addressing at some point, but 1st things first.

[Snarkesor]

> @Atrayn said:

> Of the two images above you have more arm extension or “push away” in the one with the baseball hat. More body extension in the 2nd. You need to blend the two a bit better.

 

Yes, I think you’re right. I posted those images because another user found an older swing I posted here when I was looking for swing advice a year or so ago. He thought that I achieved a better backswing position with that older swing. The side-on view though shows that I don’t extend my body at all- I really do the opposite, it’s like I’m crunching down as I turn back. I think my body turn and extension is much better in the picture where I’m dressed in gray. As you and others have pointed out, I gotta get the arms working better in my new backswing though.

 

 

[Krt22]

I battle with proper extension as well. In my experience, proper extension, hip action/pivot, and arm structure all more linked than one might think

[Snarkesor]

> @Nard_S said:

> You received a lot of solid advice here, the big kahuna is trail arm action and what has helped with my own (trail issues) is allowing and even pro actively rotate it's forearm internally (CW for lefty). Not mentioned but have noticed is that lead side in transition is too glued to body. Getting lead shoulder to drop slightly and rotate away from head is something that will need addressing at some point, but 1st things first.

 

If I’m rotating the trail forearm internally that will make the shaft steeper, right? Is the idea to make sure that the shaft doesn’t get too far behind me?

 

I see what you are saying about the lead shoulder not getting any separation in transition. My hope is that as I achieve a better top of the backswing position with less extreme depth, the leading shoulder being pulled taut against my chest due to my rear arm working to far back, that this might be mitigated on its own.

 

[Nard_S]

> @Snarkesor said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > You received a lot of solid advice here, the big kahuna is trail arm action and what has helped with my own (trail issues) is allowing and even pro actively rotate it's forearm internally (CW for lefty). Not mentioned but have noticed is that lead side in transition is too glued to body. Getting lead shoulder to drop slightly and rotate away from head is something that will need addressing at some point, but 1st things first.

>

> If I’m rotating the trail forearm internally that will make the shaft steeper, right? Is the idea to make sure that the shaft doesn’t get too far behind me?

>

> I see what you are saying about the lead shoulder not getting any separation in transition. My hope is that as I achieve a better top of the backswing position with less extreme depth, the leading shoulder being pulled taut against my chest due to my rear arm working to far back, that this might be mitigated on its own.

>

 

Yeah, I would term it getting more arm lift. That lift helps keep trail from pulling away from torso and keeping forearm in line with spine angle. Someone mentioned having trail set like your a waiter holding tray, going internal gets you there.

 

As for the lead shoulder, yeah, take care of earlier stuff but at least for me, it is something that has to be worked through a bit because it was ingrained and getting that separation was new and it really encompasses entire left side and not just shoulder.

[Snarkesor]

Some improvement today... trying to feel left (rear) arm staying out in front of me, more hinge...

 

 

I think another issue is simply the butt of the club working away from my body right as I start my backswing. From that initial disconnection, my arms are always out of sync, sometimes I recover, sometimes I don’t...

 

Anyways greatly appreciate all the great advice. Looking forward to more critique!

[Shades234]

I agree with everything @Krt22 has said in this thread. I'm struggling with all 3 of the same things (blocks, push hooks, and the occassional shank) and my instructor has me working on more or less what he's saying.

 

Boils down to adding a pul-cut shot to my bag and feeling like I can swing the club left. Especially with the long irons

[Krt22]

> @Shades234 said:

> I agree with everything @Krt22 has said in this thread. I'm struggling with all 3 of the same things (blocks, push hooks, and the occassional shank) and my instructor has me working on more or less what he's saying.

>

> Boils down to adding a pul-cut shot to my bag and feeling like I can swing the club left. Especially with the long irons

 

I'm mostly speaking from experience, battled similar woes for some time. (2+dang years!). Getting over "Swing to right field" and "hit the inside of then ball " has been a PITA. Much like the OP I can take things to the extreme (path was 8-9 right at one point).

[Snarkesor]

 

Some improvement thanks to the comments received last post. Thought I’d try a bit of golf instruction crowdsourcing for the new year to coincide with the introduction of the new MP-20s into my bag. I think I’ve cleaned up my takeaway quite a bit. I feel like my arms still work back too deep at the the top of my backswing, which is promoting a big in to out path in the downswing. Do I need more trail arm fold and earlier hinge of the club in the backswing? Or is it more a matter of getting my lead arm off my chest in transition? Thanks for having a look everyone.

[dap]

You don't appear to be early extending but your pelvis moves closer to the ball at impact than they were at address which is a fault of most amateurs. One of the features of most tour pro swings is how stable in space(from dtl view) their pelvis remains as they rotate. It's not hard to understand that if your pelvis moves closer to the ball you will be cramped for room at impact increasing the likelihood of a shank.

You need to rotate your hips on the downswing in a way the pelvis doesn't move out towards the ball. A good feel is that the right hip(right handed player) is the door hinge and the left hip is the door that swings open. That will help the hips rotate without the pelvis moving out towards the ball.