Insertion depth of Ping's w/hosel weights (G410, G700, i500?)

[Nessism]

On 10/23/2020 at 10:22 PM, ws6 said:

@NessismI just read you used shaft beads, not something I thought I'd ever read on here.  Glad it worked out for you.  

 

Ouch!  That hurts.  

You won't catch me using "shafting beads"...but that DP8410NS that has "glass beads to control bond line thickness" built in.    

 

I'm really happy with that adhesive.  It's designed to tolerate poor prep and it even bonds to oily surfaces.  https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Scotch-Weld-Acrylic-Adhesive-DP8410NS/?N=5002385+3293242481&rt=rud

[Socrates]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:20 AM, Nessism said:

 

Ouch!  That hurts.  

You won't catch me using "shafting beads"...but that DP8410NS that has "glass beads to control bond line thickness" built in.    

 

I'm really happy with that adhesive.  It's designed to tolerate poor prep and it even bonds to oily surfaces.  https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Scotch-Weld-Acrylic-Adhesive-DP8410NS/?N=5002385+3293242481&rt=rud

Contain glass beads (0.010" diameter) to control bond line thickness

 

Certainly couldn't use something that small to center a shaft in a hosel.  I just marvel at the concept that people think that works.  It will help prevent too tight a fit and forcing out all the epoxy from the bond line though.

 

Interesting that you can speed up the cure process, but it doesn't say how long to apply the heat. 5 min? 30 min?  Any idea Ness?

[Nessism]

56 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Interesting that you can speed up the cure process, but it doesn't say how long to apply the heat. 5 min? 30 min?  Any idea Ness?

 

There is a relationship between time and temperature and strength.  If the temperature is higher the cure time will be lower, but there are limits to temp of course.  DP420 has some specific info about temp vs. time but not this acrylic adhesive stuff.

[dubbelbogey]

Just catching up on this thread after being directed here from the more current one. @Nessism 's photo of one of the failed bonds is interesting in how glossy the remaining epoxy on the shaft is in the bonding region. It clearly did not bond well to the interior surface of the hosel bore. As we have all experienced, what is typical is that there is a good film of residue on both the bore surface as well as the shaft when a shaft is pulled, indicating good bond to both surfaces. Here, there's virtually nothing left on the interior of the hosel.

 

While the short bonding area might well be exacerbating the issue here, I think you were correct in suspecting that regular epoxies don't like to bond with the particular alloy of that clubhead. At least not when prepped in the typical manner. Maybe some sort of extra rough texturing (sandblasting?) could provide more mechanical grip.

 

Anyway, very glad there seems to be an adhesive that works well in this setup. Too bad it's likely to affect others who aren't aware this might be a potential problem.

[johngalt312]

On 10/29/2020 at 10:29 AM, Nessism said:

 

There is a relationship between time and temperature and strength.  If the temperature is higher the cure time will be lower, but there are limits to temp of course.  DP420 has some specific info about temp vs. time but not this acrylic adhesive stuff.

150* F, duration unknown.  Can likely call 3M and speak to their engineers to find out. 

[Ou8it]

So dont buy the 410 or 700 clubs?

[Chef Otto]

So I bought some new shafts for my i500 and I am going to just replace my 8 iron first and hit some balls before doing the whole set. When I set the ferrule I noticed the huge amount of space in the hosel so I came to WRX to see what I could find...........I am not one to give up without a fight and I bought some red ferrules from Billy Bobs that are not collared. What I did was get some Brampton Epoxy PRO-FIX 5&10 Rapid Cure and some glass beads. This is a slow and tedious process as I will need to do one club at a time. Without the collared ferrule I use a good bit of epoxy and get the shaft and ferrule to sit all lined up with the hosel and give the excess that seeps out a quick wipe then hold in place to it sets. This is why I went with the quick cure so I held the head in place by hand for around 7-8 minutes.  I will need to mix epoxy for 1 club at a time........Just set the 8 iron and going to give it a test tomorrow off the mat in the garage. 

I am only replacing the 4-U so 8 irons if I like the new shafts. I will report back if they dont hold but they should be fine. 

 

[Socrates]

4 hours ago, Chef Otto said:

So I bought some new shafts for my i500 and I am going to just replace my 8 iron first and hit some balls before doing the whole set. When I set the ferrule I noticed the huge amount of space in the hosel so I came to WRX to see what I could find...........I am not one to give up without a fight and I bought some red ferrules from Billy Bobs that are not collared. What I did was get some Brampton Epoxy PRO-FIX 5&10 Rapid Cure and some glass beads. This is a slow and tedious process as I will need to do one club at a time. Without the collared ferrule I use a good bit of epoxy and get the shaft and ferrule to sit all lined up with the hosel and give the excess that seeps out a quick wipe then hold in place to it sets. This is why I went with the quick cure so I held the head in place by hand for around 7-8 minutes.  I will need to mix epoxy for 1 club at a time........Just set the 8 iron and going to give it a test tomorrow off the mat in the garage. 

I am only replacing the 4-U so 8 irons if I like the new shafts. I will report back if they dont hold but they should be fine. 

 

I guess 20+ posts of good advice weren't convincing enough.  

[Nessism]

13 hours ago, Socrates said:

I guess 20+ posts of good advice weren't convincing enough.  

 

🙃😬

 

I'm happy to report that the clubs are holding up well.  Reading back through this thread I'm a little embarrassed to say the failures were primarily my fault; poor prep was the main root cause of the problem.

 

With most clubs you don't need to be so manic with prep but not so with these newer Ping's.  The insertion depth is short and they use long collared ferrules which cut into the bonding area.

 

My recommendations for anyone reshafting newer Ping's (and any iron in truth):

 

- Use a torch on the hosel to break down the epoxy and as soon as the head separates use either a wire brush tool or scraper of some kind to remove epoxy from the hosel (and shaft as need be) while the epoxy is still hot.

 

- Clean the hosel with MEK or acetone

 

- Using a clean (new) sanding sleeve on a rotary tool w/ mandrel abrade the hosel ID until you have a bright shinny metal surface

 

- Clean again with MEK/acetone

 

- Similarly prep your shafts and degrease

 

- Use QUALTY epoxy/acrylic adhesive that has a minimum of 3000 psi lap shear strength when bonding stainless steel

 

- During assembly use proper Ping collared ferrules.  Golfworks sells some good ones.  The 410 ferrules in particular are excellent.

 

- Use plenty of adhesive during assembly, coating both the shaft and hosel ID

 

- For the strongest bond wait until the adhesive kicks off and gets firm then apply heat: 120F @90 mins or 140F @ 60 mins.  This will increase the bond strength over a room temp. cure.

 

Last step is to take your clubs to the course and hit the $hit out of them.  Nothing but birdies and eagles allowed.  This part on you of course.😉

[Nessism]

@Stuart_G

Being the clubho that I am I've decided to reshaft my 410's back to stock and move them on.  Hit the hosel with a full size propane torch for a 10-15 seconds and the DP8410NS released no problem.  

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Nessism said:

@Stuart_G

Being the clubho that I am I've decided to reshaft my 410's back to stock and move them on.  Hit the hosel with a full size propane torch for a 10-15 seconds and the DP8410NS released no problem.  

 

Sorry, my memory is not that good and I didn't make any posts in this thread so I might need a reminder.  Back then, did I ask about this in another thread or did I say something somewhere to indicate I thought there might be a problem?

 

[Nessism]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry, my memory is not that good and I didn't make any posts in this thread so I might need a reminder.  Back then, did I ask about this in another thread or did I say something somewhere to indicate I thought there might be a problem?

 

 

Ah, it seems my memory is the faulty one...

 

In one of our lovely epoxy threads here you questioned the temp breakdown temp of the DP8410NS, thinking it might be on the high side...thus my comment. 

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

Ah, it seems my memory is the faulty one...

 

In one of our lovely epoxy threads here you questioned the temp breakdown temp of the DP8410NS, thinking it might be on the high side...thus my comment. 

 

Now you mention it, I do remember that comment.    Just curious, is that the amount of time you usually use with propane?   That (or really a bit less) is what I typically use for a butane torch.   But as long as it breaks before the graphite shaft tip gets too hot, that's all that matters.  

 

The skill of the puller is probably much more important than the epoxy breaking temp.  If "too high" a breaking temp would ever be an issue, I think it would be more likely to be one for beginners or less experienced builders.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Stuart_G

[dlow206]

do the Glide wedges have the same type of short insertion depth issues?

[Nessism]

13 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

do the Glide wedges have the same type of short insertion depth issues?

 

Not the early Glide's.  I'm not sure about the 3 & 4 though, but I doubt it.

 

And the problem with the newer Ping clubs isn't strictly the insertion depth.  It's about the hosel design in its entirety; It's too loose around the shaft, not very deep, and the long ferrule collar reduces bonding surface area.

[dlow206]

Just now, Nessism said:

 

Not the early Glide's.  I'm not sure about the 3 & 4 though, but I doubt it.

 

And the problem with the newer Ping clubs isn't strictly the insertion depth.  It's about the hosel design in its entirety; It's too loose around the shaft, not very deep, and the long ferrule collar reduces bonding surface area.

 

Right, saw those other issues mentioned

 

Found the same types of issues (but probably not as drastic as Ping) with bonded Callaway fairway woods, shaft was way loose even with the Callaway collar. I didn't feel like I was going to get a good bond with DP 460, so went with DP 420NS and that worked well. The 420NS has good bonding strength with stainless steel compared to 420, but i think those published specs are stainless steel to stainless steel, whereas i was installing graphite to stainless steel (it would be a graphite shaft as well in the wedge if i buy one). 

 

In general, seems like Ping just does things differently with their build approach, stuff like the short insertion depth with the long collars, as well as how they do the assembly. i got to see them building clubs in-person at Ping WRX when i got fitted for my Ping PLD Custom putter and it was interesting to see how they build their clubs. 

[Birddog2]

On 11/22/2021 at 1:10 PM, Nessism said:

@Stuart_G

Being the clubho that I am I've decided to reshaft my 410's back to stock and move them on.  Hit the hosel with a full size propane torch for a 10-15 seconds and the DP8410NS released no problem.  

Ness, were the hosel weights intact when you re-shafted the 410s?  If not, did you use any kind of tip weight to make up the difference?  Been wary about doing anything because of the weight... 

[Nessism]

22 minutes ago, Birddog2 said:

Ness, were the hosel weights intact when you re-shafted the 410s?  If not, did you use any kind of tip weight to make up the difference?  Been wary about doing anything because of the weight... 

 

The weights fit down into a passage at the bottom of the hosel, and I have no clue how they can be removed.  To my knowledge, Wishon was the first with hosel weights like these, and he put a screwdriver slot in them so you could crack them loose and get them out if need be.  The Ping weights have no such slot, thus no easy way to get them loose for extraction.  If you are worried that they will fall out or come out with the shaft, relax.  There is no such concern.  

 

Realize also, that a heavy weight will be taller than a lighter, and shorter, weight, and Ping uses plastic spacers to normalize the insertion depth.  When pulling the shafts, these plastic spacers may get damaged, so make sure after everything is all said and done that you have consistent insertion depth across the set.  If some heads have an insertion depth beyond 1.1" or so, you might have lost the spacer.  

[Birddog2]

On 5/13/2022 at 7:56 PM, Nessism said:

 

The weights fit down into a passage at the bottom of the hosel, and I have no clue how they can be removed.  To my knowledge, Wishon was the first with hosel weights like these, and he put a screwdriver slot in them so you could crack them loose and get them out if need be.  The Ping weights have no such slot, thus no easy way to get them loose for extraction.  If you are worried that they will fall out or come out with the shaft, relax.  There is no such concern.  

 

Realize also, that a heavy weight will be taller than a lighter, and shorter, weight, and Ping uses plastic spacers to normalize the insertion depth.  When pulling the shafts, these plastic spacers may get damaged, so make sure after everything is all said and done that you have consistent insertion depth across the set.  If some heads have an insertion depth beyond 1.1" or so, you might have lost the spacer.  

 

@Nessism

 

Ness, curious what you used for any missing/damaged spacers...   thanks again!

[Nessism]

2 hours ago, Birddog2 said:

 

@Nessism

 

Ness, curious what you used for any missing/damaged spacers...   thanks again!

I used a plastic airsoft ball, shaved to size.🤨

[Birddog2]

1 hour ago, Nessism said:

I used a plastic airsoft ball, shaved to size.🤨

Wow, interesting; did you flatten it or just drop in?  

[Nessism]

8 minutes ago, Birddog2 said:

Wow, interesting; did you flatten it or just drop in?  

It was the perfect height, so I just dropped it in.

[Birddog2]

Thanks Ness!  My 410s have SF i95 R that are feeling a bit stiff/heavy; I am thinking about trying the Recoil 95 or the new 80.  🏌🏼‍♂️ 

[Nessism]

11 minutes ago, Birddog2 said:

Thanks Ness!  My 410s have SF i95 R that are feeling a bit stiff/heavy; I am thinking about trying the Recoil 95 or the new 80.  🏌🏼‍♂️ 

 

You won't know what's down in the hosel until you pull the shafts.  It might be that you don't even have any spacers.  Just be ready to measure insertion depth and make sure they are all consistent.  Expect just a smig over 1" insertion.  If some are 1.25", then there is supposed to be a spacer under the shaft.  They often get chewed up when cleaning the old epoxy out of the hosel.  

[animalgolfs]

8 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

You won't know what's down in the hosel until you pull the shafts.  It might be that you don't even have any spacers.  Just be ready to measure insertion depth and make sure they are all consistent.  Expect just a smig over 1" insertion.  If some are 1.25", then there is supposed to be a spacer under the shaft.  They often get chewed up when cleaning the old epoxy out of the hosel.  

Is that what the blue tip inserts are - spacers? 

[Nessism]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:50 AM, animalgolfs said:

Is that what the blue tip inserts are - spacers? 

 

Oops, didn't see this question.  To answer, though, the answer is yes.  Ping uses either a spacer, to normalize insertion depth to 1", or a cap, to keep adhesive from smothering the hosel weight.

 

And speaking of adhesive.  Saw this video showing Ping using some sort of green adhesive for their modern clubs.  I'm pretty sure this is some flavor of 3M acrylic adhesive.

 

[CaymanS]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:08 AM, Nessism said:

Glue failed in my 410's AGAIN. I'm at a total loss. I spent a LOT of time during the build: cleaning the shafts, hosels, washing out the hosels with alcohol after abrading the metal with a sanding sleeve on a dremel to rough up the metal, and using high grade industrial epoxy - Loctite Hysol E-60HP. I've been building clubs for more than 20 years and never one time have I had a club fail...but now I don't know what to do. The epoxy stuck great to the shaft but not to the metal in the hosel.

The problem as I see it is that 1) there is only 1" of insertion depth, 2) the collared ferrule take away about 3/8" of contact area between the shaft and hosel, and 3) the hosel has that typical loose Ping fit.

Anyone want to buy a set of G410's?

 

BTW, the mesh stuff on the tip is fiberglass drywall tape. I go around the tip 2X and it snugs up the shaft fit in the hosel to keep the shaft from tilting in the hosel while the glue drys.

 

 

Did you replace the fiberglass drywall tape with an alternative in the final build or did the beads take up the slack?

[Nessism]

10 minutes ago, CaymanS said:

Did you replace the fiberglass drywall tape with an alternative in the final build or did the beads take up the slack?

 

Yes on the fiberglass tape.  

[CaymanS]

1 minute ago, Nessism said:

 

Yes on the fiberglass tape.  

Pardon my ignorance, but does yes mean you did or did not use it?

[Nessism]

11 minutes ago, CaymanS said:

Pardon my ignorance, but does yes mean you did or did not use it?

Yes, I used the tape.  Spacer beads do next to nothing when building golf clubs.