Tour Pro Driving Distance

[dalehead]

Like everyone else I have time on my hands and the question about the golf ball being too long has heated up again. So I decided to do a little research.

I went to the Tour website and found their list of top 70 drivers for distance. The median (half were longer, half were shorter) was 279 yards. So do we really have a distance problem?

Oh, I forgot to mention these stats are for the Champions tour. But these guys are still pretty good. They might even give a WRX’er a game.

Got me wondering if we really have a distance problem anywhere except the most elite levels.

[Golfrnut]

The problem is not distance per say, it's the fact that technology has improved the equipment faster than courses have improved to handle the change. The designs of the courses were made for a for shorter game, which are now proving to be irrelevant for all but the "shorter" hitters. Most fairway bunkers, par 5s, and the like are no longer a part of the course layout that matters...the only protection is making the hole 500+ yards and closer to 600 for par 5s. Add in the fact that groups like the Tour committee love selling the long ball on TV so they won't grow up rough either to help mitigate the bomb and gouge style of play.

[dalehead]

True, but my point is once you step down from the elite level player, PGA Tour players and WRX’ers, the problem you describe goes away.

[Golfrnut]

I would argue that is necessarily does not. If a course was designed based around an older era of play, some of it's true design is lost with the additional distance brought upon by equipment.

Just by example, I play longer tees at my course just to keep fairway bunkers and the original design in play, and I am by no means a long hitter. If I were to play the average mens tees at my course, or any older course in my area as an example, they are not in play for me. My average drives are in the neighborhood of 250 yds, which falls right in line with the USGAs handicap. In the ballata ball days, they would have easily been in play from the shorter tees. My course has that option, other local municipals are short enough that even from the back tees, they are not in play any more.

[DFS PFD]

Hey guys,

 

Just went to the tour website and saw the average driving distance is 356 yards, so is this really a problem?

 

Oh Yeah I used Long drive tour distances. Sorry if that was misleading

[disco111]

I play muni courses with a regular group of younger guys and they are not at that "elite" level, but they can pound the crap out of the ball. While even playing from the senior tees, they are 40 to 60+ yards past me and I can still move the ball decently. Most par 4, no, all par 4's are nothing more than a flip gap wedge for them on the second shots, were as I'm still hitting 7 or 6 or more depending on wind. They have actually driven some par 4's, were back in the day when I was equal in age and could really play well, there was no way in h**l I could even come close to that distance. These courses are maxed out as far as obtaining any efforts to lengthen any holes, with the possible exception of some par 3's. Now just for grins and giggles, one of the guys brought out some ballata balls and a persimmon driver and had a few of these guys play a hole or two. What an eye opener it was for them and everyone of them said "how in the world did you guys play with these things!". Now as other's have said, the genie is out of the bottle, so now the real question is and really should be, even though the limits have been in place for some time, they apparently have had little to no effect on the distances that some can achieve. So do we allow even further distance gains, from whatever implementations the OEM's can figure out? Now I have not overlooked the physical workout aspect that many elude to, but there are more than a few on the tour that are far from gym Adonis's that still knock it out there with the best of them and you all know who they are........

[bladehunter]

Lol. So yes. When the senior tour averages more than 280 on the limited driving holes they measure , which includes a lot of 3 woods etc , yes. There’s an issue. Why ? That’s around 40 yards more than most of them would have averaged in their college days.

 

I said on the other thread. Hard cap it here and be done with it. But if you don’t. At some point the game will be only pitch and putt. If that’s what YOU want , then fine. But it’s not what I want. So I’ll have to disagree. The “ labron jameses “ of golf are out they’re , when they arrive the regular tour numbers will go towards 400 yards. Then what ? When they are waiting in 5/6 holes a round for greens to clear to tee off. How will that work for pace of play etc.

that’s the real issue. The continued short sighted ness of the USga etc over this. They openly mocked the idea that a pro would play a 460cc driver way back when. And they continually underestimate the ability of top players of all ages to adapt and gain from inside the “ rules”.

[storm319]

As mentioned earlier, the avg distance at LDA championships is ~350 yards and is with much lower regard to accuracy given the football field sized grid that they are bound to. The LDA is the peak of human ability on this front and 400+ yard drives are still not even close to the norm. Given the the LDA averages have remained fairly flat recently, there is little to be concerned with 400 yard drives becoming more common in any capacity, let alone the PGA Tour.

As previously noted in the other debate thread, I agree that the USGA should have limited the max driver volume earlier (like at the same time that they set the COR limit), however I doubt that it would have had much of an impact to the longest players on Tour given that we regularly see these guys exceed 300 yard drives with sub-200 cc fairway metals. The best players in the world are not deviating far from the sweet spot and do not benefit from the forgiveness of a larger head as much as the other 99% of the golfing population does.

As for setting a hard cap, how do you suggest doing that? Basically every universal improvement when it comes to equipment has been limited for approximately the past 15 years, anything else have been negligible gains based on optimization of what has already existed.

[dalehead]

In 2019 average driving distance on the PGA Tour was 293. In 2003 it was 286. So are we over stating the effect of equipment?

[stingerfade]

haha well done.

I just checked sand saves percentage is 89 percent. Oh and was just looking at Seve’s stats lol

[RedWings1]

My 2 cents is that the answer is in the setup of the courses the tour uses. Stop all the fairways from running a 9/10 on the stempmeter and rolling out another 20, 30 & 40 yards after landing. Set up the fairways much tighter. More strategic off the tee if you will. If I guy has the ability to hit it 300 yards carry and keep it in a tighter fairway - congrats that's an awesome ability.

[Golfjack]

Easy just put large bunkers that goes from 270 - 310 yards in the fairway. I've love to see the guys try to carry it over 310 or die trying.

[bladehunter]

No. You need to go back to pre 460cc and graphite to see the real effect. Not that a 7-10 yard average jump isn’t a gain.

 

besides. Flip the question backwards. If we are overstating it. Then. What’s the harm in rolling it back ? Won’t matter much .. right ?

[bladehunter]

The thing you aren’t considering is how many 400 yarders they hit just off the grid. Golf is going the way of playing from the next fairway over as being a strategy.

but let’s not talk about those hacks. In my opinion those guys for the most part are about as ineffective and inefficient as a sprinkler in a wind storm. Look at the sabdlowskis and champs to show you the way. Those guys are over the LDA average plenty of times and on the course. Doesn’t need to be in fairway. And these are small guys. If you think we won’t see an actual big guy come and hit it farther , I disagree.

and sure. Next will be “ well how do they score “. Doesn’t matter at this point. They are just the beta test that will kick off the real change. Much like the current Rory , JT , Keopka crop .... the next crop will be longer. And score. But it’s the 3rd or more likely 4th crop of tiger babies that I fear. Those are the 360 plus carry guys who can putt. But hey. We can sit around and do nothing just as before. And we know how that will go. ( insert definition of insanity ).

[storm319]

1) line every hole where an errant shot would be playable from the next fairway with white stakes at elite events...grid problem solved without any rule changes.

2) How has Sadlowski fared in real golf settings? Missed cut in his first PGA event, flat performance on the KF Tour, and now missing plenty of cuts on the Canadian Tour. The pinnacle of LDA has not really changed much in the past 20+ years (Jason Zuback was hitting it just as long in the 90's), but the standard deviation of the field is a lot tighter than it was in the past (same with most PGA Tour stats). There is simply much tighter competition rather than having a few guys dominating (some people view that as higher quality competition while others may view that as boring).

3) The USGA did not do nothing, they set limits on anything that would provide universal meaningful distance gains (you may just not agree with where they set the limits and when). If anything, the relative lack of increase over the past 20 years on the elite tours shows that the USGA was successful with these limits. The problem really comes down to the inability for everyone to agree on what "desirable" is and simply pushing for a regulatory rollback without sufficient data to support it is blatantly saying that your subjective opinion is more important than that of someone who disagrees (newsflash, it isn't).

As for the size limit, I agree that the USGA should have acted sooner, but there is little evidence that smaller driver heads would have much of an impact for the longer elite players that this is debate is focused on since they are so incredibly consistent with their impact location.

[dalehead]

We’ve been hearing that the reason today’s tour pros are so long is not just the equipment it’s because they are stronger, more athletic . They work with trainers and spend hours in the gym. Courses are better conditioned. Well all that athleticism and training has resulted in a 7 yard gain in 16 years using similar equipment. The Pro V1 was around in 2003. So we’re graphite shafts and large driver heads. That’s the reason for the comparison. If driving distance wasn't a problem in 2003 why is it today?

if you want to compare to persimmon woods, steel shafts, and balata balls of course there has been a big change in distance. But you could have said the same thing in those days about hickory shafts and featherie balls.

[storm319]

Reverting to "why not" as reasoning to change something clearly points to a lack of objective supporting data. Instead of "why not" lets focus on "why make the change"?

[Sean2]

A lot of Tour venues cut and roll the fairways so the players can get a tremendous amount of roll on their tee shots.

[bladehunter]

Because in 2003 they still had room to add longer tee boxes. And they did. They don’t have that room for the 10 yards they will add in the next 10 years.

[bladehunter]

Disagree. Asking the question in reverse isn’t a revert. It’s actually advancing the conversation and asking one to think . If you can’t think of it from all angles then how can you form an opinion ?

[smashdn]

"The thing you aren’t considering is how many 400 yarders they hit just off the grid. Golf is going the way of playing from the next fairway over as being a strategy."

 

The last LD contest I watched on tv they were using an actual fairway or some strip of land somewhere that had a pretty serious right to left cant. They actually had to account for the amount of rollout in the fact that it would run off the grid. They also did not hit off of real grass but an elevated turf platform. That may have been the only event where that ever happened I don't know. 414 I do remember won it on the men's side. 330 (or thereabouts) for the women's.

If I throttle back 15% in order to keep it in play when I'm capable of 414 I am still getting it out there about 350 yards.

[smashdn]

"If driving distance wasn't a problem in 2003 why is it today?"

 

It was. USGA said it was undesirable, due to any and all reasons, in 2002.

[smashdn]

Can we throw "unfair to change for the average golfer" in as well?

[storm319]

What they said was that any further distance increases beyond the 2002 line in the sand would be "undesirable" however they never defined what "desirable" was. Without an explicit definition of "desirable" we can only deduce that the point up to that joint statement fell within scope of "desirable". Since the elite gains since that time period have been far less than 10-20% rollback recommendations that have been thrown out, a rollback of that amount would be illogical.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

It's wild to think about how babies born when the USGA made its "undesirable" declaration are going to college next fall.

[bladehunter]

@storm319

id venture a guess that the idea of pro players hitting it on average 20 yards longer in their 50s and 60s vs their college and pro debut days was part of the “ undesirable “ idea. Which is the question of the OP for this thread.

[Golfjack]

On that note would you also ask car manufacturers to stop making sports cars with insane HP because it's making cars go faster? Easier to speed? Might kill more people?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The average is 268 on the Champions Tour, but I agree that the top ten drivers are hitting farther than in their prime.

One could also argue that courses were shorter by 20 yards in their prime too.

Pros generally have a lot more “gas left in the tank” than amateurs. Who’s to say that these players like Freddy Couples didn’t have the ability to hit farther in their primes?

From my own observations, I just don’t see that huge an advantage in the newer equipment. What I see are less sideways shots in my game, but pros strike far better than me and would not be affected by bad shots like an amateur.

The other observation I’ve made, 50-60 you don’t really lose that much distance unless you’re really unhealthy. You don’t really drop off until after the 60s. All the players in the top ten are only mid to late 50s.

Not convinced that equipment made this huge difference, but I do agree you can make equipment hit shorter for everyone and keep courses “relevant” whatever that means?

[rangersgoalie]

in the 20 years of playing before getting to champions tour eligibility, the ideals for launch and optimums have moved through a number of evolutions.

 

good players adjust and take advantage of what is learned.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Exactly, this and performance targeted fitness.