Is the handicap PCC working?

[bazinky]

I've yet to see an adjustment at my club this year. Given how infrequently it seems to be being applied, I'm failing to see what benefit this adjustment really offers. Seems like a lot of effort to develop something that isn't/wasn't really needed.

[phil75070]

I really don't care for any adjustment to my handicap based on what other golfers do. I think there should be some baseline for conditions and make adjustments based on how conditions vary from that baseline. Those conditions could even be on a seasonal basis, perhaps more frequently.

[rzitup]

I have 49 rounds recorded this year. Seven of them were adjusted, five +1's, two -1's. Seems to me it's serving a purpose.

[davep043]

Do you know how many scores were posted that day, and posted before midnight? Its entirely possible that most people stayed home, and/or decided (for vanity reasons) not to post their score. This is a cooperative thing, much of the world has used this type of system for years, hence its inclusion in the WORLD Handicap System. Nobody with significant knowledge has ever suggested that PCC would be invoked very often, it seems to be working pretty much as planned. Who knows, the various Handicap bodies may review the results and tweak the calculations a bit if they think its necessary.

 

[davep043]

How would you identify that "baseline", and how would you make adjustments, if not based on scoring statistics? Anything else would have to be MUCH more subjective.

[bazinky]

That makes me wonder if there is some sort of local component that is not being calculated correctly in my area. We haven't had a single PCC adjustment that I have seen this year, and there have been some pretty extreme weather conditions.14% vs 0% seems pretty far outside the realm of likelihood.

[duffer987]

15-20 mph winds and snow, with the fairways and greens covered in snow at times: makes total sense

[North Butte]

I know New Jersey folk are a hardy lot but surely there wouldn't be enough rounds posted on such a miserable day to qualify for the PCC adjustment.

[davep043]

Every single club is local, the PCC is calculated from the scores posted to each individual club on each day. its ALL local, and it depends on enough people actually posting their scores on the same day that they play.

[duffer987]

Yes that is exactly what I meant by 'makes total sense'.

 

[jmkenn0]

PCC is a long-term thing, especially with the COVID delay. As people get more comfortable entering scores in via their phone, you'll probably see it more. If you are used to walking in and handing the pro your scorecard, then that's probably not going to be put in the day of.

[Mcgeeno]

After prematurely whining I had only seen one PCC adjustment in 30 or so rounds this year, I have had 3-4 in the last 10 rounds. (Both directions and only one was a +2 adjustment)

 

 

[North Butte]

Same here. It took 20-30 rounds for the first PCC to happen to one of my rounds. Then another 20 or so before the second. But now there has been a -1 on three of my last four rounds.

The number of posted rounds per set of tees must be very low. Yesterday there were fewer than 100 rounds played at my home course and we have five sets of tees. The tees I play are less used than most so it's hard to imagine more than 8-10 rounds were even played from my tees. And I'm not sure everyone who plays on a given day posts to GHIN before midnight.

So how many posted round are necessary for the PCC adjustment from a given set of tees? Maybe five or so?

[davep043]

The PCC adjustment is based on all scores posted (before midnight) at a given course for that day's play, from all tees. Its not done on a tee-by-tee basis.
I wonder if your experience, and @Mcgeeno 's, are because more people are posting promptly than they were earlier in the season.

[davep043]

[bulls9999]

Funny you should mention, I looked this weekend at my list of scores and never saw an adjustment for weather conditions and I know darn well here in Oklahoma if you enjoy golf, you better learn to play in the wind.

But I did notice that my recent posting of 2 9-hole scores were combined ("N") and given a higher course rating (136) than my 18 hole scores on the same tees (126) (hmmm.... maybe I didn't check the tee boxes and I posted them from the tips/black instead of the men's/blue .... how do I get that changed?)

[davep043]

On the first part, your handicap is almost certainly based on a lot of rounds played in heavy wind. So your differentials when you play in heavy wind are probably not a whole lot different from the differentials that went into your handicap calculation. The PCC is intended to apply when conditions (as shown by scores posted) are significantly different from "normal".

For the second, you would have to check with the head pro or the handicap committee to get previously posted scores (or CR or slope or whatever) changed. Is it possible that one nine plays tougher than the other? If so, and you play that nine twice in a row, you could end up with a higher slope and CR for the combined score.

[phil75070]

Only requires 8 rounds being turned on from all sets of tees. Here is teh criteria:

The playing conditions calculation (PCC):

Is generally performed only once for a day.Considers acceptable scores submitted on a golf course each day and requires at least eight acceptable scores to determine if an adjustment is required.Includes only acceptable scores submitted by players with a Handicap Index of 36.0 or below.Equals zero if fewer than eight acceptable scores are submitted.Where applicable, does not include scores that are scaled up to 9-hole or 18-hole scores.Can determine an adjustment of -1.0, 0.0, +1.0, +2.0 or +3.0 and is applied in the calculation of Score Differentials for all players.

[rjp1969]

From reading this I conclude that there are very few indexes which are substantially different due to the PCC. DOes anyone know if this is the only reason that non-official handicap sources (like The Grint) are unable to give the calculated indexes from the basic formula? If so, it is starting to feel like a 'special sauce' added to make these external sources unable to give an accurate calculation.

I have been self-calculating for decades and switched to The Grint a couple of years ago. It is frustrating to see an insignificant (I believe) change make it incalculable.

[davep043]

As I understand it, the Grint does offer fully compliant USGA Handicap services. Their data gets loaded to the national records, and is included in the PCC calculation. Its no longer free, but its an official handicap.

[rjp1969]

Yes. I understand that, and my issue is more with the inability to calculate. It takes a concept (if we all use this algorithm, we can compare indexes) and makes it proprietary. I switched to The Grint because it was an easier way to do what I have been doing on my own for a long time. Now they have made it impossible without paying somebody, and for a reason that doesn't seem to have a real impact. Just grousing a bit, I guess.

[rzitup]

My last 20 rounds are between 5/2 - 6/27, all played in Southern California, where the weather is generally not a massive factor. In those 20 rounds I have three -1s, and a +1, that all count towards my 8. I am a 9 today, and without the PCC adjustments would be an 8.8. At my club thats a stroke difference. While it may seem a trivial adjustment, I give them credit for coming up with something that allowed them to get out of the seasonal freeze.

[phil75070]

As I said earlier, I have an issue with what other people do affecting my handicap. Especially at public or daily fee courses, the caliber of golfer can vary greatly on any given day. Added to that is the fact that any adjustment is done once for the day and doesn't take into account the possibility of varying weather conditions between morning and afternoon rounds. On tour, getting the morning or afternoon draw on a given day can make for a drastic difference in scoring and those are professionals. If the majority of the rounds posted on a course are in better or worse conditions it affects everyone who played that day the same even if it shouldn't.

[davep043]

You did say it earlier, and you said you'd like to see "some baseline" and "adjustments". Do you have a suggestion as to how that could be done? How would you set the baseline? How would you define the magnitude of any adjustments?

[nsxguy]

I get that it's a bit frustrating not being able to calculate something so relatively simple on your own.

But the reality is, if you don't play in any really serious comps where a valid GHIN (or similar) handicap is required, your Grint 'cap should do just fine.

Fact is, a +/- 1 PCC will affect your handicap index by .125 only if that round falls into your 8 best out of 20. Given the relative INfrequency of the PCC and the fact that it'll most likely be "1", it shouldn't have much effect on your CH for any given round.

Could it make your CH 1 more or less for a round ? Absolutely, but that can happen for your index even if PCC wasn't included.

 

[phil75070]

I did throw that out there. A baseline could be established on a monthly basis for weather as there is plenty of historical weather data available and one can easily look up what the "typical weather" is for just about any location, temperature, wind, rainfall. For example: https://weatherspark.com/m/8813/7/Average-Weather-in-July-in-Dallas-Texas-United-States

The system knowing what the weather is/was like on a given day is problematic but perhaps each member course could enter how much of an adjustment there should be within the same range currently defined (-1 to +3). How much scores would be affected by any deviation from typical may be harder to define but data collection could help in that regard over time. Maybe it is found that wind 2X the baseline drives scores up 2 strokes, or rain adds a stroke, or wind 180° from prevailing negatively or positively affects scores as do calm conditions. Heck, I don't know. Since PCC seems somewhat unusual and is having a minimal impact on handicaps at this point (in my estimation) I don't see the need for a PCC to begin with. But that is just me.

What I say could be an alternative way of making adjustments won't work anyway because weather and how it affects scores doesn't account for course setup/conditions. Bottom line, I just don't think other golfer's scores should affect my handicap. For example, I have a typical day on the course, let's say playing in the morning under pretty good weather and course conditions. However, the majority of scores that day get turned in by others who played in the afternoon in very windy conditions and light rain and because of the makeup of the field that day those scores were much higher than their normal. Thus it appears the course played more difficult, a PCC of +2 is assigned and my differential gets adjusted down lowering my handicap for my next round unnecessarily, not because of what I shot but what others did that day.

[davep043]

"Since PCC seems somewhat unusual and is having a minimal impact on handicaps at this point (in my estimation) I don't see the need for a PCC to begin with. But that is just me.

...... Bottom line, I just don't think other golfer's scores should affect my handicap."

This is the nature of the compromises that had to be made to start to unify handicaps around the world, each feature will not be well-accepted by everyone. CONGU (primarily GB&I and maybe more) Europe, and Australia all have used some type of daily assessment of difficulty as part of their Handicap systems for a long time. Those who worked on the WHS apparently do see an advantage in using some type of adjustment in playing conditions, and have chosen to do it statistically. To me, that's the only way to do this without an incredible amount of subjective judgement on the part of whoever is responsible for determining any adjustments.

I do understand that conditions can change during a day's play. There are actually provisions within the WHS to allow for more than one PCC calculation in a given day, but I don't know how that works in real life.

[phil75070]

".....have chosen to do it statistically. To me, that's the only way to do this without an incredible amount of subjective judgement on the part of whoever is responsible for determining any adjustments."

If adjustments are necessary to get everyone to agree to make this a "world" system I guess you are right. That said, in all the years I've played golf (60 maybe?) I've never had to play against or compare my handicap to someone whose handicap was generated by a different system.

 

PS: I've enjoyed the back and forth!

[davep043]

Now you get into a different subject, was a WHS really needed. I think its probably a good thing for the game as a whole if we're all on the same page, but I never thought it was a critical need. And we're still not on exactly the same page, but we're a good bit closer than we were a year ago.

And I agree, its nice to enjoy a civil discussion. Things don't always work out that way.

[bpdhlbrg]

The only PCC adjusted score I have seen came at my club's annual one day tourney where they trick the course out to play as tough as possible. This was back in March in Texas, so the wind was blowing, tees were back, rough was long and gnarly, dormant Bermuda greens running about 14, and at least half the pins were in just stupid locations. I am a 4.5 handicap, and I shot 94, ESC adjusted to a 90, and a PCC of +3. I still think it was my best round of the year, even though I seven-putted one green, none of which were bad putts, and the 7th was a 40 foot bomb. My dad is a 2 handicap and he carded a smooth 100.