Is the handicap PCC working?

[nsxguy]

On 6/15/2022 at 11:59 AM, Golferpaul said:

I've seen many plus PCC adjustments.  I even had a +2 at Punta Espada.  I've never seen a +3.

 

How many is many ?

 

I see 2 (both +1) in 80 rounds in 2021 and 1 (-1) so far this year in 30 rounds.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-the-playing-conditions-calculation--pcc--.html

 

It's INcorrect. I just shot the USGA an email about it.

Yeah, you're right.  For a FAQ it gives the general idea, but the wording could be improved.  It wouldn't take but a couple of words to say the PCC is applied in the calculation of your Differential.

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Yeah, you're right.  For a FAQ it gives the general idea, but the wording could be improved.  It wouldn't take but a couple of words to say the PCC is applied in the calculation of your Differential.

 

Yup, in 5.6 it's "is applied in the calculation of Score Differentials for all players". 👍

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yup, in 5.6 it's "is applied in the calculation of Score Differentials for all players". 👍

One reason to ALWAYS go to the real rule whenever there's a question.  I agree that the other resources should be accurate, but I prefer the real thing.

[Krt22]

4 hours ago, Celeras said:

 

 

For some reason I am only now realizing the implications of the -1 to +3 range. The mental gymnastics I have to do to remember that a +3 PCC adjustment is when they LOWER your differential is too damn high. Who wrote this nonsense?

 

"a PCC adjustment between -1 and +3 will be applied to the Score Differentials™ of everyone who played that day."

 

The adjustment is not being applied as the verbiage indicates. How hard would it have been to just say the adjustment is applied to the COURSE RATING... so it logically makes sense without pulling up the damn formula to see where they plugged PCC in to the differential calculation? /pointless rant over

What is the issue? 

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

What is the issue? 

Its not exactly "applied to the differential".  The PCC is applied to the (adjusted score-CR) term before the impact of slope is done.  Its a nit, but its not quite accurate. 

[Celeras]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yup, in 5.6 it's "is applied in the calculation of Score Differentials for all players". 👍

 

Thanks for pointing that out, much better. I didn't realize I wasn't looking at the full version. 

[Krt22]

PCC is such a hot topic they made hats.

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, davep043 said:

Its not exactly "applied to the differential".  The PCC is applied to the (adjusted score-CR) term before the impact of slope is done.  Its a nit, but its not quite accurate. 

Are you sure? I recently had a -1 day and the round differential was exactly the same as a zero PCC day with a score one stroke higher.

Are you saying that’s a coincidence?  I read the link above as saying the scoring differential will be adjusted by the PCC number…..a whole number.

 

[nsxguy]

41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Are you sure? I recently had a -1 day and the round differential was exactly the same as a zero PCC day with a score one stroke higher.

Are you saying that’s a coincidence?  I read the link above as saying the scoring differential will be adjusted by the PCC number…..a whole number.

 

 

The PCC is added to the course rating........ and it would change the differential by the same whole number, in this case 1 full point.

 

Day 1 - 80(gross)-72(CR) (slope 113) is 8. A "-1" PC makes the CR of 72, 71. That changes the diff from 8 to a 9.

 

Day 2 - 81(gross)-72(CR) (slope 113) is 9. No PC leaves the 9 a 9.

 

Now since the slope calc often adjusts the differential to a decimal, e.g. 8.3, any PCC would also end up as 7.3, 9.3, etc.

 

 

[Shilgy]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

The PCC is added to the course rating........ and it would change the differential by the same whole number, in this case 1 full point.

 

Day 1 - 80(gross)-72(CR) (slope 113) is 8. A "-1" PC makes the CR of 72, 71. That changes the diff from 8 to a 9.

 

Day 2 - 81(gross)-72(CR) (slope 113) is 9. No PC leaves the 9 a 9.

 

Now since the slope calc often adjusts the differential to a decimal, e.g. 8.3, any PCC would also end up as 7.3, 9.3, etc.

 

 

I am speaking

 some foreign language here lately? That is exactly what I just said.  The PCC is an adjustment o your score differential that day. In whole numbers only.  Depending on the score and slope that could be slightly different than adjusting he course rating in the calculation.

So a score that returns, as you said a 10.3 would get adjusted to a 9.3 on a +1 day and to a 11.3 on a -1 day.  No matter the rating or slope it could not be changed to, for example, a 10.3 would not go to a 9.2.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Shilgy

[Celeras]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I am speaking

 some foreign language here lately? That is exactly what I just said.  The PCC is an adjustment o your score differential that day. In whole numbers only.  Depending on the score and slope that could be slightly different than adjusting he course rating in the calculation.

So a score that returns, as you said a 10.3 would get adjusted to a 9.3 on a +1 day and to a 11.3 on a -1 day.  No matter the rating or slope it could not be changed to, for example, a 10.3 would not go to a 9.2.

 

You're not speaking a foreign language, you are just not at all correct. The adjustment to the differential will not always be a whole number equal to the PCC.

 

What @nsxguy said is only true when the slope rating is EXACTLY 113 (which is the "average" rating). This is because the calculation for Score Differential starts with "(113 / Slope Rating)". When the slope rating is 113, that equals 1. When it is ANY OTHER number.. it's a decimal that impacts the rest of the calculation. Here is a link with the full calculation if you want to look at it: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5 1 Calculation of a Score Differential.htm

 

You will very often have differential adjustments that are not whole numbers and it does not match "-1, +1, etc".

 

[edit] For example, throwing out an extreme scenario by using the Bethpage Black numbers from tournament tees (77.5/155). Shooting an 80 is a 1.8 differential... adding 1 to the course rating (or subtracting one stroke for a 79) is a 1.1 differential. Difference of 0.7.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Celeras

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I am speaking

 some foreign language here lately? That is exactly what I just said.  The PCC is an adjustment o your score differential that day. In whole numbers only.  Depending on the score and slope that could be slightly different than adjusting he course rating in the calculation.

So a score that returns, as you said a 10.3 would get adjusted to a 9.3 on a +1 day and to a 11.3 on a -1 day.  No matter the rating or slope it could not be changed to, for example, a 10.3 would not go to a 9.2.

 

You said "Are you sure? I recently had a -1 day and the round differential was exactly the same as a zero PCC day with a score one stroke higher. Are you saying that’s a coincidence?"

 

To me that sounded as if you weren't sure so I explained it again in a slightly different way.

 

My apologies for misunderstanding your post.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Celeras said:

 

You're not speaking a foreign language, you are just not at all correct. The adjustment to the differential will not always be a whole number equal to the PCC.

 

What @nsxguy said is only true when the slope rating is EXACTLY 113 (which is the "average" rating). This is because the calculation for Score Differential starts with "(113 / Slope Rating)". When the slope rating is 113, that equals 1. When it is ANY OTHER number.. it's a decimal that impacts the rest of the calculation. Here is a link with the full calculation if you want to look at it: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5 1 Calculation of a Score Differential.htm

 

You will very often have differential adjustments that are not whole numbers and it does not match "-1, +1, etc".

 

[edit] For example, throwing out an extreme scenario by using the Bethpage Black numbers from tournament tees (77.5/155). Shooting an 80 is a 1.8 differential... adding 1 to the course rating (or subtracting one stroke for a 79) is a 1.1 differential. Difference of 0.7.

 

 

Yes, I used slope 113 for simplicity in showing the PCC is added to the course rating before the calc is done.

 

Once slope is accounted for in the calc there may or may not be be a difference in the actual differential. 👍

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, Celeras said:

 

You're not speaking a foreign language, you are just not at all correct. The adjustment to the differential will not always be a whole number equal to the PCC.

 

What @nsxguy said is only true when the slope rating is EXACTLY 113 (which is the "average" rating). This is because the calculation for Score Differential starts with "(113 / Slope Rating)". When the slope rating is 113, that equals 1. When it is ANY OTHER number.. it's a decimal that impacts the rest of the calculation. Here is a link with the full calculation if you want to look at it: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5 1 Calculation of a Score Differential.htm

 

You will very often have differential adjustments that are not whole numbers and it does not match "-1, +1, etc".

 

[edit] For example, throwing out an extreme scenario by using the Bethpage Black numbers from tournament tees (77.5/155). Shooting an 80 is a 1.8 differential... adding 1 to the course rating (or subtracting one stroke for a 79) is a 1.1 differential. Difference of 0.7.

 

I realize that….that’s why I said what I said…

my reading of the rule is that it is a final calculation, not a change to the course rating.  I guess that’s why @davep043was saying it’s poorly written.  If the rule said it adjusted the course rating I would agree with you.

It does not.

 

If scores were abnormally low or high, a PCC adjustment between -1 and +3 will be applied to the Score Differentials™ of everyone who played that day.

[Golferpaul]

21 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

How many is many ?

 

I see 2 (both +1) in 80 rounds in 2021 and 1 (-1) so far this year in 30 rounds.

Not sure since I don't keep a count but I would guess once every 25 - 30 rounds.

 

I just saw my first +3 (a golf buddy of mine).

 

 

I just flipped through several of my golf buddies GHIN scores and most of them have a PCC once in their last 20 rounds.

 

 

[davep043]

23 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I realize that….that’s why I said what I said…

my reading of the rule is that it is a final calculation, not a change to the course rating.  I guess that’s why @davep043was saying it’s poorly written.  If the rule said it adjusted the course rating I would agree with you.

It does not.

 

If scores were abnormally low or high, a PCC adjustment between -1 and +3 will be applied to the Score Differentials™ of everyone who played that day.

Here's what Rule 5.1 (not the FAQ) says about the application of the PCC:

Score Differential    =    (113 ÷ Slope Rating)    x    (adjusted gross score –Course Rating – PCC adjustment)

 

That's the way it has worked, in my experience with my own scores.  Here's one of the most extreme lines from my own scoring record:

 

88 A   04/04/2022   72.0/135   +3   10.9   Southern Pines GC

 

Without the PCC, the Differential would be 13.4  ((88-72.0) x (113/135)).  As shown, the PCC of +3 reduced the Differential by 2.5.  The Differential is NOT simply reduced by the amount of the PCC.

 

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, davep043 said:

Here's what Rule 5.1 (not the FAQ) says about the application of the PCC:

Score Differential    =    (113 ÷ Slope Rating)    x    (adjusted gross score –Course Rating – PCC adjustment)

 

That's the way it has worked, in my experience with my own scores.  Here's one of the most extreme lines from my own scoring record:

 

88 A   04/04/2022   72.0/135   +3   10.9   Southern Pines GC

 

Without the PCC, the Differential would be 13.4  ((88-72.0) x (113/135)).  As shown, the PCC of +3 reduced the Differential by 2.5.  The Differential is NOT simply reduced by the amount of the PCC.

 

 

 

{snip}

 

Or am I mistaken ?

 

🤦‍♀️

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by nsxguy
I was mistaken. LOL

[davep043]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Except that what they're doing is ADDING the PCC, not subtracting it.

 

88-72 = 16 X (113/135) = 13.4 PLUS (+3) = 16.4

88-72 = 16 X (113/135) = 13.4 MINUS (+3) = 10.4

 

88-72 = 16 X (113/135) = 13.4 PLUS (-1) = 12.4

88-72 = 16 X (113/135) = 13.4 MINUS (-1) = 14.4

 

Or am I mistaken ?

The term at the right end is:

 

 (adjusted gross score –Course Rating – PCC adjustment)

 

so they subtract the both the CR and PCC from the Adjusted Score.  You can write the term a little differently as:

 

 (adjusted gross score – (Course Rating + PCC adjustment))

 

which is what a number of people have said, it is as if the Course Rating is higher on that day.  When the PCC is a negative number (it can be -1), adding the -1 to the CR makes the CR lower, effectively, i.e. the course played a little easier.

 

What you have done wrong in your calculations is to apply the Slope stuff to the raw difference between score and CR, and then apply the entire PCC. Instead the slope stuff is applied to the (Score-CR-PCC) result.  Again, you can write that differently, as:

 

(113/Slope) x (Score - CR) - (113/Slope) x (PCC)

 

That's why in my personal example, a PCC of 3 produced a decrease in my Differential of 2.5, so the Diff calculated in the Handicap system is 10.9, not 10.4 as you have come up with.

 

To me this is simple algebra.  I know that many people have never taken algebra, or have forgotten everything they learned, but this is all done correctly.  The only thing "wrong" is the description in the FAQ.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

The term at the right end is:

 

 (adjusted gross score –Course Rating – PCC adjustment)

 

so they subtract the both the CR and PCC from the Adjusted Score.  You can write the term a little differently as:

 

 (adjusted gross score – (Course Rating + PCC adjustment))

 

which is what a number of people have said, it is as if the Course Rating is higher on that day.  When the PCC is a negative number (it can be -1), adding the -1 to the CR makes the CR lower, effectively, i.e. the course played a little easier.

 

What you have done wrong in your calculations is to apply the Slope stuff to the raw difference between score and CR, and then apply the entire PCC. Instead the slope stuff is applied to the (Score-CR-PCC) result.  Again, you can write that differently, as:

 

(113/Slope) x (Score - CR) - (113/Slope) x (PCC)

 

That's why in my personal example, a PCC of 3 produced a decrease in my Differential of 2.5, so the Diff calculated in the Handicap system is 10.9, not 10.4 as you have come up with.

 

To me this is simple algebra.  I know that many people have never taken algebra, or have forgotten everything they learned, but this is all done correctly.  The only thing "wrong" is the description in the FAQ.

Perfect explanation…and yes….I was trusting the USGA’s own FAQ would quote correctly.

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, davep043 said:

The term at the right end is:

 

 (adjusted gross score –Course Rating – PCC adjustment)

 

so they subtract the both the CR and PCC from the Adjusted Score.  You can write the term a little differently as:

 

 (adjusted gross score – (Course Rating + PCC adjustment))

 

which is what a number of people have said, it is as if the Course Rating is higher on that day.  When the PCC is a negative number (it can be -1), adding the -1 to the CR makes the CR lower, effectively, i.e. the course played a little easier.

 

What you have done wrong in your calculations is to apply the Slope stuff to the raw difference between score and CR, and then apply the entire PCC. Instead the slope stuff is applied to the (Score-CR-PCC) result.  Again, you can write that differently, as:

 

(113/Slope) x (Score - CR) - (113/Slope) x (PCC)

 

That's why in my personal example, a PCC of 3 produced a decrease in my Differential of 2.5, so the Diff calculated in the Handicap system is 10.9, not 10.4 as you have come up with.

 

To me this is simple algebra.  I know that many people have never taken algebra, or have forgotten everything they learned, but this is all done correctly.  The only thing "wrong" is the description in the FAQ.

 

In my haste to provide the math I screwed up the formula.

 

My bad.

 

Thanks.

 

 

P.S. I will edit my prior post so as not to confuse any poor soul who might be confused by it - besides me that is. 🤦‍♀️

[blim8183]

(Apologies if this was addressed earlier. I didn't see it as I skimmed the thread, but I did see some references to people using The Grint to post their scores)

 

If you're using The Grint to post your scores, PCC won't ever kick in, as far as I can tell. 

 

I posted a score via The Grint today from Marine Park Golf Cub in Brooklyn and noticed something weird. In GHIN, the round was listed as having been played at "Marine Park Golf Club |" (notice the stray pipe in the name) and the course rating and slope were incorrect. I'm fairly certain that The Grint is posting using the "manually post score" option that GHIN offers where you punch in all the course info yourself instead of pulling it from the USGA's database. This means the score is not correctly being associated with the course and therefore not part the PCC calculations nor is it eligible for a PCC adjustment.

 

It also means that there are probably tons of users of The Grint out there posting inaccurate data to GHIN 🤦‍♂️

[Augster]

I wouldn’t worry about it. 
 

I had 140 posted scores this year and 5 PCC adjustments. (3.5%) And 4 of those were in May when our course opened with a new hole, different tee boxes, different CR and Slope, and a different par. 
 

Since June 1st, I had 105 posted scores with 1 PCC adjustment. (0.9%)

 

If it’s only affecting 1/100 scores, it’s not really anything to get concerned about IMO. 

[phil75070]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:31 PM, Augster said:

I wouldn’t worry about it. 
 

I had 140 posted scores this year and 5 PCC adjustments. (3.5%) And 4 of those were in May when our course opened with a new hole, different tee boxes, different CR and Slope, and a different par. 
 

Since June 1st, I had 105 posted scores with 1 PCC adjustment. (0.9%)

 

If it’s only affecting 1/100 scores, it’s not really anything to get concerned about IMO. 

I've posted 134 scores this year and had 1 PCC adjustment. That is .7%. Why bother with it if it has such little impact?

[North Butte]

13 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

I've posted 134 scores this year and had 1 PCC adjustment. That is .7%. Why bother with it if it has such little impact?

 

Because of USGA/R&A politics during the creation of WHS. Adopting PCC was one of USGA's tiny, meaningless face-saving "concessions" to the way things were traditionally done in CONGU. 

 

Just like USGA telling people to stop posting solo rounds while still basing GHIN on unattested, non-competition scores with no way of knowing whether they are peer reviewed or not. If you squint your eyes just like it looks kind of like a move toward attested compition score based handicapping but without having to make an actual change in how people use GHIN. 

 

I've had PCC in 6 of my last 200 rounds, all PCC=-1. So about 3% of my rounds are being tweaked by a single stroke which means it can't possibly have even a 0.1 stroke affect on my index. 

[Newby]

2 hours ago, phil75070 said:

I've posted 134 scores this year and had 1 PCC adjustment. That is .7%. Why bother with it if it has such little impact?

The PCC algorithm was changed a few weeks ago.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, North Butte said:

Just like USGA telling people to stop posting solo rounds while still basing GHIN on unattested, non-competition scores with no way of knowing whether they are peer reviewed or not. If you squint your eyes just like it looks kind of like a move toward attested compition score based handicapping but without having to make an actual change in how people use GHIN. 

 

I've had PCC in 6 of my last 200 rounds, all PCC=-1. So about 3% of my rounds are being tweaked by a single stroke which means it can't possibly have even a 0.1 stroke affect on my index. 

 

Kinda sorta like golfers telling the USGA, who have crunched untold numbers of rounds, they don't know what they're doing.

 

Or a pedants telling you "of course it can have a .125 effect on your index, which in turn, could cost you a full stroke in a comp which in turn, of course, could meant the difference between you winning or losing said comp".

 

Sometimes the devil really IS in the details.

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Kinda sorta like golfers telling the USGA, who have crunched untold numbers of rounds, they don't know what they're doing.

 

Or a pedants telling you "of course it can have a .125 effect on your index, which in turn, could cost you a full stroke in a comp which in turn, of course, could meant the difference between you winning or losing said comp".

 

Sometimes the devil really IS in the details.

The USGA certainly know what they're doing. I just object to the fact what "what they are doing" is often something other than they claim to be doing. I have no doubt if it were USGA's goal, they could create a very fine handicapping system based on attested, peer reviewed, competitive rounds and designed to provide valid handicaps for competition.

 

But they'd rather keep the system they have because it's an easy sell to the "track my progress" solo artists and vanity 'capping fantasists. Also keeps the odd sandbagger from having to work too hard on maintaining his index. 

[klebs01]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but the type of course and type of player can have a huge impact on the likelihood of an adjustment. Adjustments at public courses are probably unlikely because very few public golfers have handicaps. Daily play at privates are unlikely because of the larger number of rounds posted, but people are familiar with the course and their handicaps are well dialed in to how the perform at that course. The days most likely to have an adjustment are member guests and club comps because of more guests with posted rounds (mg) or players playing a different format, rules, and pressure than most of their handicap rounds.  

[DaveLeeNC]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

The PCC algorithm was changed a few weeks ago.

 

Given the lack of transparency, "if they changed the algorithm, how would you (anyone outside the system) know". 

 

dave