help with hooking/pull hooking

[Mono]

this was my issue too, I needed to learn how to rotate - i'm higher hc than the op so you prob rotate great in the downswing but if your rotation stalls you are going to flip and save with the hands, gets very hooky, the idea of getting my right shoulder turning in the downswing (while it's protracted and possibly internally rotated but thats way too complicated and over complicating things aren't helping my HC and likely wont help anyone)

Tyler Ferrel has a great video 'High level of a hook' describes this exactly https://golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/high-level-hook

Left Dad - with similar advice i only got more and more flippy, aiming right to hook it, upright lie angles etc etc - i have irons 2 degrees flat now...

and OP - when i rotate my shoulders same thing my lower body is in the right position without thinking about it, and when i get it right i think i'm going to look up and see a big pull but generally it's the baby draw, i'm so used to starting the ball way right

there are a couple people who can chime in on this board that actually know what they are talking about who can explain this much better but i'll take a stab at it - a high right shoulder (for a righty) is asking for a flip, part of the reason that this shoulder rotation should work is that at impact you need a smaller radius - the distance between your sternum and the clubhead, so bent right arm and right wrist in extension (bent back but extending) the only way you can get these angles in the right arm and wrist is to get the rear shoulder lower - basically it creates the slack in the system so you get full extension after the ball is gone otherwise you are standing up and throwing your arms and hands at it and hooking

Tom Watson has great advice on this too -

 

 

 

 

 

[juliette91]

wow Mono, you took "a stab at it" and killed it. A bit too much information for me but I can tell you put some serious time and thought into it. Thank you and keep on turning those shoulders.

One thing Mono, when I feel I'm turning my shoulders but the ball is still pull/ hooking I thought it was because I wasn't getting my weight onto my trail leg and turning back far enough----and therefore starting this shoulder turn before a full backswing turn. Intuitively that makes sense, that starting the shoulder turn too early would cause me to pull and hook the ball---but if I turn back far enough with my weight also transferring then the shoulder turn starts from "farther" behind the ball and much less likely to pull the ball. Fwiw, I'm glad you're experiencing good results with this shoulder turn. Bear in mind though that the swing is dynamic and when things go awry--as they always will--it might get a wee bit more complicated to fix.

[Nels55]

@juliette91, one thing that can be done to help with the problem of pulling and hooking is to practice pulling and hooking. By doing that you learn what actually does cause you to pull and hook and will give you more control over your swing. You can also practice hitting big slices and big pushes. Developing the skill to hit any shot type that you want to hit makes it more likely that you will actually hit the shot that you want to hit when you want to hit it.
Variability practice of this sort can be very valuable.

[Barfolomew]

I tried to get WRX to start a section for "Better Players" but everyone just laughed and laughed and laughed and said that's a stupid idea why in the heII would anyone want that......

[Nels55]

Seems like the problem would be where do you draw the line between better players and everyone else?

[juliette91]

Awesome advice! I actually did that when I was trying (still trying) to hit fades instead of slices. Just kept hitting slices because I know how and eventually felt the difference between those slices and a fade. I may be a lower handicapper but hitting a high percentage of properly faded shots is still a holy grail for me because if you're only doing it say 7 out of 10 times you're probably losing 2-3 strokes and that's hard on a lower handicap. Thanks again.

[juliette91]

I think your intentions were likely good ones but you probably touched a lot of nerve endings.

[Nels55]

I picked that up mostly from reading Adam Young's stuff. If you have not read his book "The Practice Manual" I highly recommend it. He did a video analysis of my swing several years ago and gave me a bunch of drills to do which included hitting as big a push hook and pull slice as possible without changing my stance around. Doing that drill will teach a person what inside out and outside in really are. I never have done as much of that sort of practice as I should. It is bit hard to force myself to do those drills for some reason. LOL I have noticed over the years that the drills that help me the most are often the ones that I least like to do.

[Barfolomew]

Yeah a lot of butt hurt up in here.... just sayin

[hoselpalooza]

nope, not bashing at all, just being direct. and that wasn't a rhetorical question -- was genuinely curious about why you'd recommend closer to 50/50 at the top.

the first source i linked mentions jday gets max pressure "near the top" of the backswing. it indicates the vast majority of tour players do it similarly but with less max pressure at 80% (jday's 95% seems crazy!). the fitzpatrick article is less precise, but the author says fitzpatrick loads pressure into his trail leg on the backswing and starts to shift pressure to the lead side just before the club begins the downswing. yes, it's debatable exactly when max pressure occurs on the trail side in these examples, however, it seems clear it's near the top of the backswing.

i'm aware there are different ways to shift pressure during the golf swing, i'm just not personally familiar with any golfers who use them or anyone who teaches (e.g.) 50/50 at or near the top of the backswing. additionally, most of the current/popular content i've seen about pressure shift in elite golfers indicates it's around 80/20. as a 2.7 i thought it was a safer bet OP would shift pressure like this, too, but that's just my $0.02.

[glk]

AMG teaches it. Heard Dana Dalhquist talking to Andrew Rice and he mentioned recentering. Monte's on board. Certainly the list is longer than just this. The issue with max pressure at top is that one is faced with both shifting pressure and starting rotation - yes, the pros do it at different time so some may get to the top or close before beginning the shift but they are not both shifting and rotating like lots of ams. The actual numbers are all over the place so better to just say get your max over by p3 then start moving pressure forward along with the lateral shift so by p5 it's turn on the rotation. Scott Lynn has stated that in all the swings he's seen (he's a golf researcher out of Cal State Fullerton and is R&D director for swing catalyst) that pressure trace is all over the place (Kuchar hits driver with 42% pressure on lead foot at impact as one example) but the sequence holds in 99% - glide, spin, launch. He talks about how back in 2010 few had trackman and that pressure/force is now in the same place a decade later but expects it to catch up in the coming years.

This is more typical of the Pro though the numbers vary - shift starts before reaching the top. Scott Lynn is pretty clear that there is a "right" trace for each person but no universal so people shift pressure and amounts differently and though the sequence appears to be important the amounts of glide, etc is individual - as he likes to point out Justin Thomas big power source is his launch and if at a young age he was taught to keep that lead foot planted he'd be selling insurance now.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_P-uk7oxcc/An example of how pressure/force plates can be used - tons more on swing catalyst site. Improving GRF’s for better Performance and Injury Prevention - Swing Catalyst

[hoselpalooza]

better to just say get your max over by p3 then start moving pressure forward along with the lateral shift so by p5 it's turn on the rotation.i agree this is probably a better catch-all than saying around 80/20 at the top.

good point about the issue with max pressure at the top; i think it could be relevant to this discussion topic. e.g. rotating before shifting pressure seems to be a consequence of hanging back too long for me, causing pulls/hooks when timing is off... i've found one fix for this is practicing 80% swings with a conscious focus on pressure shift just before the top of the backswing.

thanks for providing those sources.

[wagolfer7]

@glk is the man. Will always be my favorite on the board. Has a very friendly and good way to present info and data. And does the hard work for everyone of only providing the good stuff after weeding through many videos. @hoselpalooza - you know I thought I might be able to help some get through the same journey I went through quicker. By sharing my insight. I did manage to after about 3 years of studying and working hard on my swing, to break the barrier. But the guys who can't even do this stuff on their own, are the experts on it. I learned through my journey, that understanding something and doing something are two different things entirely. There's a ton of stuff I wish someone told me as I tried to work on these things. But not everything is found in instruction videos and data of the PGA players. I still have work to do on my own swing. But the way I swing it now, as opposed to how I did as a 2 HCP - is mind blowing to me. And a lot if had to do with the ground. I went the same direction you did actually. I tried loading up 80-90% of my pressure at the top. There's some missing information there though - that I misunderstood at the time. You're right maybe it's not 50/50 exactly at the top - but there's things going on, that I haven't seen in a video or presented in data. Including the AMG video up there. It's very good information - but it's not that simple of just getting to certain percentages on each side. Good luck with your journey though. I wish on no one, the frustration and hopelessness that one can feel after working so hard on their swing and not getting results.

[LeftDaddy]

One other note here, perhaps to simplify things. The Gankas guys suggested to me that I could help the pulls by neutralizing my path. They suggested putting an alignment stick into the ground behind me parallel to shaft line, and to practice swinging under it back and through. This should help neutralize the path. I haven’t had a chance to practice the drill yet but seems like it could be very helpful. Maybe it would be for you.

[juliette91]

Further follow up from OP. I see how the conversation has shifted to other topics that interest people but I'll end my part here. I played again today and am pleased as punch that this big idea of feeling the shift to the trail foot and quickly rotating my shoulders produces some of the best ball striking I have ever had. Again, it's so intriguing that turning the shoulders so quickly to the right (as a LH) actually makes a straighter ball flight when intuitively you'd think the ball would go well right. Realize the dynamic quality of the golf swing doesn't make what's good for me good for you but if you have a pretty good swing then I'd encourage you to give what's worked for me--a try.

Again, thanks to all who posted replies to the problems I was having!---and will likely have again and again but now I might have a path for a fix.

[juliette91]

Update and last post on this. I can confirm that the fix for my pull and pull hooking is mainly the weight shift to my trail leg (instep of foot). When I do not do that, and then quickly turn through the ball, I will hook and pull and pull hook most every time. The swing path is a pull. Occasionally the swing path will be spot on and yet similar hooky results. Sometimes that's just a closed club face at address that I missed but usually it's a failure to really turn through the ball and get my lower body involved. Just want to emphasize, for those of you who like me have had trouble getting your brains to tell your lower body to turn quickly through the ball, you might try having your brain tell your shoulders to do that. Most of the time the shoulders can connect to the hips and the shoulder turn can make the hips turn. I know some/many here will counsel against this idea but if it's not succeeding the way you're doing it, give it a try.

[trilerian]

I am happy for you that you have sorted the issue. Sometimes I will get a little hooky on my iron shots, but normally for me it is an ott swing that still plagues me when I get tired.

[juliette91]

As we all know once you've figured it out in golf you really haven't. So it is with my weight shift (Malaska calls it moving the force to your trail leg). It is not a cure all for what ails me. In reading most of these sincere and informative posts I started to investigate why I am convinced that this fast shoulder turn has made my swing so much more accurate and consistent. What I discovered is that while it feels like I'm turning my shoulders rapidly through the ball, and while I probably am doing that in fact, what I'm really doing (but not feeling) is firing my left oblique (I'm LH), which in turn affects/turns the hips toward the target! It's an "aha" moment for me.

Quite frankly I cannot feel my oblique leading the charge but something has to account for my hips turning toward the target prior to finishing my backswing. I feel my shoulders turning but they're likely just reacting to my obliques.

[hoselpalooza]

i'm curious to how much pressure you've put into your lead heel on the DS whilst focusing on rapidly turning the shoulders. recently it feels like i've found another gear by "jumping" off of the lead heel in the DS whilst rapidly rotating the shoulders open. still too soon to tell if this is real or not, but early results have been encouraging.

[harolease]

Interesting thread. I come back from a 3 years layover and the first few days my swing was pull hooks. I have open my body and stance to play the pull and the hooks have disappeared. Now occasionally have a cut that appears. I notice that the reason is if I open up my stance to much my natural instinct is to move my hips first then my arms. When my ball goes straight I start up is my arms. My swing is straight or a cut. I don’t have the nice high draw in wheelhouse It is just controlling the hook.