Spin rate to back balls on green

[dhc1]

What is the approximate spin rate requires to spin a ball back on a green?

thanks.

[Hawkeye77]

No idea, but would think green conditions, especially moisture/firmness (not necessarily the same things) would play into it - assuming a level green and level approach shot is there an "average" standard for how firm it is and how moist it is? Just pondering.

[MonteScheinblum]

On top of there being dozens of variables, spin actually being one of the lesser important ones, Why would you want to do that?

The only time a high level player wants that to happen is when they purposely throw it behind the hole to take advantage of the shot at hand.

Ever notice most balls that spin back on TV, that don’t involve a big slope behind the pin, end up well short of the hole?

More often than not, high spin on approach and pitch shots is actually your enemy.

[ebrasmus21]

Monte, chicks dig the nuked wedge that lands pin-high and spins back 30’ leaving an uphill birdie putt. Who doesn’t love uphillers for birdie?

[Hawkeye77]

So I’m lucky my wife could care less how long I am?

Edit: oops, context is golf!

[ebrasmus21]

Short knockers and long knockers both need love

[MonteScheinblum]

Here’s a great story about that.

In a Nike (Kornferry) Tour event in 1993, that Jim Furyk won, I was one of the final 6 or 8 groups on Sunday.

I had a lot of people following me. On a long par 5 that was basically unreachable, I hit a long iron to within a few feet for eagle and got a luke warm reaction. I thought I hit it over the green, but was less than 10 feet away. My caddy and I laughed.

 

The very next hole, to a back right pin, I hit not enough club way too hard, landed a few feet away and it spun back almost 100 feet to the front of the green. The crowd went berserk like I just won The Masters. I asked someone behind the green why they went crazy for that and didn’t cheer much on the previous hole, as it was mostly the same crowd.

”Monte, we have all hit a ball 10 feet before, but none Of us have ever spun it back that much.”

We all had a good laugh and I get it, but my job now is to educate golfers on what will make them better and trying to put more spin on a shot so it will spin back as a primary goal is something that will make you swing worse and score worse.

[SNIPERBBB]

One of the local pros years ago here was asked by a member how to spin the ball back...pro asked him, "how many times do you hit the ball past the hole? ", "rarely" was the answer. "You dont need to learn how to spin the ball back".

 

My home course its pretty hard to get a ball to spin back, it my spin out sideways sometimes. Usually when it does its usually when the course is somewhat soft and the front of the green near the collars. Most of the time it hit and stops or releases a few feet unless you hit a bullet into the green. When I go to our rival course, you've gotta be very mindful of the spin or you can rip wedges and short irons off the greens from the middle.

[ThinkingPlus]

I never, ever want my ball mark to be closer to the hole than my ball when I put the ball under the hole. I am fine with a couple of hops then dribble a foot or two.

[ebrasmus21]

So you’re saying chicks do not dig the nuked-spinny wedge?

[ebrasmus21]

It would have been pretty funny to see that. Good story!

[ThinkingPlus]

This one doesn't. I LOL everytime one of the tour boys sucks one back off a green into the water.

[MonteScheinblum]

Hahahahaha

[Krt22]

I don't always spin a wedge, but when I do its off the green.

[Krt22]

I almost did that once on the 16th at pasatiempo. Absolute circus 3 tier green, wedge in hand, middle flag, said I was gonna throw one off the last tier and tour sauce it back. Hit a full wedge to the top tier, sucked it back off the green and proceeded to four putt from the fringe.

[dhc1]

I just wanted to know what the actual spin rate is to even have a chance to spin a ball back (given optimal conditions). If the spin rate is too low, the rest doesnt matter.

in particular, we have a short par 4 where the pin is often on a High perch front left protected by a high bunker in front.

[SNIPERBBB]

I dont know if anyone has ever really quantified it due to the variables involved. If you get the magical 1000xiron number spin rate or more with your irons, youve got chances of doing it on greens you can spin it on.

[bluedot]

Even on the Tour, I think you see a LOT less of this than you used to because of Bermuda greens. If you're playing golf on firm Champion Bermuda, especially if you're playing a shot down grain, you're more worried about being able to hold the green than having too much spin. I'll still see a ball back up a little bit on a full wedge on bent grass, but in the summer on Bermuda greens, you don't even need a repair tool, and the only distance you're worried about is the distance to the front of the green.

[MonteScheinblum]

Golfers lose strokes when they try and get fancy “like the pros.”

Working the ball the other way

Flop shot

Unique lie in the bunker

Spin back to sucker pin

Etc.

in all cases, hit your normal shot to a safe place, move on to a hole where you can play the shit normally.

Lowering your handicap is about eliminating unforced errors, not pulling off miracle shots.

[Hawkeye77]

Sounds like an interesting question, but how would you hit the ball differently to get that extra spin? Wouldn't you have to swing in a different way to achieve it? Different kind of ball just for that shot? I don't know, just thinking about how I'd play to spin one back and how different the wedge shot would have to be - I'd be blading it over or ballooning it short or hitting it fat (but I'm not highly skilled). I had a couple spin back a bit earlier this week on a couple of iron shots when the greens were pretty moist and yep, disappointed. Just had longer putts, lol. Not picking on you, genuinely curious what your approach would be.

[Hawkeye77]

LOL, reading that brings back bad memories of the other night. Went out for a quick nine and . . . no _____, hitting driver well, every fairway, almost every green, 6 pars in a row . . . hit to the front fringe of a par 3 with a pin way, way back and . . . . 4 putts (my third putt was only two feet, but there was a significant ball depression immediately in front of my ball and lazily I thought I'd just "power" my putt over it - I need to learn about those gimmes everyone likes so much!). So frustrated with myself I topped my next drive into a creek immediately in front of the box on the next hole. Rebounded on 9, but round blown. I'd say thanks, but I really didn't want to think about that as I get ready to go play this morning, haha.

And @MonteScheinblum ---- in reference to what you said above, the first six holes were "boring", just like the pros! That's my "just like the pro" mindset - sustainability is the issue, lol.

[dhc1]

To be honest, I don’t know but I’d put it similar to hitting a flop shot - not something I would want to play regularly but one I want to know how to play if in a match play situation.

I have a SC300 so I can mess around with it - again, it’s not for show or to use regularly but more for a specific situation where it’s much better to land long than short but the ability to back it up would mean a lot easier look at birdie. It’s also a hole where players will have less than 100 yards into the hole and as little as 30-40 yards. That may be too short to get spin though.

it’s not really a shot I can visually practice as our range doesn’t have greens but if the answer is something like 10k rpm, I can see whether it’s feasible for me. It may not be doable but I do have the ability to hit a flop shot but use it maybe once every two rounds (and hopefully less).

so.....any thoughts on the spin parameters? 10k sound like the minimum, even under ideal conditions?

[AFcelica]

It entirely depends on many many factors.. you’re not going to get a straight answer

[dhc1]

I must be communicating poorly.

it shouldn’t be that hard to figure out a band of spin numbers where spin back is possible if conditions are right.

5k - no way, no matter the conditions

6-9k - nopE

10k - [maybe but only under optimal conditions]

12k - [more possible and under more varied conditions]

15k - [potential for extreme backspin under certain conditions]

it’s not that hard a concept in my mind as I’m not looking for a guarantee but rather a benchmark to look at while practicing.

looking at it the other way, for the top end players who are at risk of spinning it too much, don’t they want to know the rpm numbers to get to stop them from spinning it off the green? Wouldn’t they try to work on this?

[AFcelica]

Too many variables... i typically hit my full swing 60° ~11000rpm on a gcquad. I’ve hit Full 60°s on the course that have spun 40’, that land and just stop next to the pitch mark, and that have rolled 15’ Forward depending on course conditions. It also depends on how tight your fairways are, the contact, your grooves, impact conditions, whether it lands on an up/down slope, wind, etc etc. I’ve also hit a 100y chip pw (full is 140) on a rainy day that probably didn’t have more than 6000rpm that sucked back 8’. Moral of the story is it depends.

 

if you can’t currently hit that shot then it needs more spin than you can produce with a normal swing. That’s an concrete of an answer as anyone could possibly give

[PureStrikes54]

Green conditions are by far the most important factor. The conditions that most frequently lead to the crazy spin backs I've noticed are somewhat "fast" greens that still have some moisture in them. i.e. something that's really closely mown but still on the damp side and will allow a ball mark. The ball digs in and then the speed of the green allows the spin to rip the ball back. Something like a 9.5 to 10.5 stimp but still on the damp side.

[dhc1]

Sigh.

so, if a pro wanted to take spin off his ball to avoid spinning off the green, there’s no benchmark to look at when they’re practicing wedges on TrackMan?

where did you get the 6k RPM for your 100 yard PW that spun back 8 feet? Have others have actual numbers where they’ve seen this kind of action on that kind of backspin? That would be an interesting datapoint

 

[Jeff58]

The two variables are descent angle and spin. A combination of a 50 degree angle and 10,000 rpm spin will typically give a zero forward carry, given no wind. An increase in one variable obviously allows a decrease in the other.

[AFcelica]

for a pro that would be a feel shot, even bryson isn't standing over the ball thinking ok 5500rpm and itll chase up the hill to the top shelf smh.

 

as for 6k thats a guess considering a 1/2 swing on a pw isn't going to spin 9k+ like a full swing

 

but i'm done giving rational responses to a question that has no answer. its like asking whats the value of x given the equation X+y=z.

 

like i said, it depends. but if you cant do it with a normal shot and you really really really want to try, then more spin than you currently produce. If you're looking to back it up 10' and you arent backing it up at all, then A LOT more spin than you currently produce.

[dhc1]

Please don’t respond anymore if you can’t understand the question which explicitly states that we’re holding other variables constant.

math and logic clearly aren’t your forte.

id assume a pro would do the same thing I would do (just better): I’d go the range and hit 10-15 balls and see what my spin is and then I’d try different things to see if I can get to my goal. Once (perhaps if) i figured out how to hit a shot that has X rpm, I’d practice it enough so it’s part of my repertoire, like a flop shot. I assume a high level player would do the same but in reverse. I highly doubt they’d say, just take some spin off it, dude because there’s too many variables.