Ball overhanging hole problem and clarification

[rogolf]

As many have stated above, whether or not the ball was moving is irrelevant, both before (it does not delay the start of the 10 second count) and after the 10 seconds had elapsed.

Edited August 26, 2020 by rogolf

[antip]

On 8/25/2020 at 5:01 AM, James the Hogan Fan said:

As the ball is treated as being at rest, if the ball starts to move (ie fall into the hole) and the player makes a stroke at it, is he penalized for making a stroke at a moving ball? 

No. I have confirmation of the answer to this question. Tapping in a ball in that is overhanging the hole, as consequence of the wording of Rule 13.3a, is not a breach for making a stroke at a moving ball (even if the player, marker or anyone else is confident that the ball was actually moving).

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

It may seem arbitrary to you, but it was implemented for very good reason and has survived the test of time.  After a reasonable amount of time for the player to reach the ball/hole, and another 10 seconds, the ball is deemed to be at rest; whether it is or not at rest is irrelevant.

One could argue that the three minute search Rule is also arbitrary, but it is the Rule.

That's what strikes me as odd.  In every other situation the ball "moving" is absolutely relevant. 

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

That's what strikes me as odd.  In every other situation the ball "moving" is absolutely relevant. 

Just accept the Rule as written; the ball is deemed to be at rest 10 seconds after the player reaches it.  Very simple.  Other Rules are not applicable to this situation.

Edited August 26, 2020 by rogolf

[oikos1]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Just accept the Rule as written; the ball is deemed to be at rest 10 seconds after the player reaches it.  Very simple.  Other Rules are not applicable to this situation.

And here my next question was going to be if anyone knows the history of why ten seconds.

 

I'm always suspicious of "just accept the rule as written" guy.  So I'll ask, anyone know the history of where ten seconds came from?

[rogolf]

18 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

And here my next question was going to be if anyone knows the history of why ten seconds.

 

I'm always suspicious of "just accept the rule as written" guy.  So I'll ask, anyone know the history of where ten seconds came from?

The time limit of 10 seconds was introduced several decades ago after Don January, a PGA pro, waited an inordinate amount of time claiming that a ball overhanging the hole was still moving.  The Ruling Bodies decided that this was difficult to ascertain and therefore chose to say that after the player reached the ball, it would be deemed to be at rest after another 10 seconds.  The Rule has a sound basis and history; I'm not sure why it's being questioned now.  And, if you wish to question it, pursue it with the USGA.  Doing so on this forum won't change anything.

 

Ball on Edge of Hole
1899 if the ball fall in, it is deemed to be holed out - no time limit specified.

1908 player shall play 'without delay'.

1952 (1947 USGA) On the putting green, a player is allowed a 'momentary delay' to ensure his ball is at rest. Also, 1956 Separate paragraph for a ball on the lip of the hole disappears.

1964 section for a ball on the lip of the hole reappears; player is allowed 'a few seconds'.

1984 player now has time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay plus 10 secs.

1988 penalty reduced from two stokes to one stroke. The penalty was also briefly one stroke in the 1950 code, but reverted to two strokes in 1952.

Edited August 26, 2020 by rogolf

[James the Hogan Fan]

2 strokes is brutal for mine (and I realize that was the rule for the longest time.)

 

Personally I'd say, if the ball is overhanging the hole, the player should have a reasonable time to reach the ball plus an additional 10 seconds. If it falls in it's in on the previous stroke. If it doesn't, it is still "holed" add one stroke and pick it up. After the 10s it doesn't matter what the ball does because it would no longer be 'in play'.

 

Yes it breaks the "always hole out in stroke play rule", but it eliminates any confusion over what happens after 10 seconds, and (serious question) has anyone ever known of a missed putt where the ball was overhanging the hole (other than a swing and a miss)? before the putt?

[antip]

5 hours ago, rogolf said:

Just accept the Rule as written; the ball is deemed to be at rest 10 seconds after the player reaches it.  Very simple.  Other Rules are not applicable to this situation.

I have confirmation that the ball is also treated as at rest during the waiting period of 10 seconds in the situation of a ball that does not fall in during the waiting period. Hence no penalty for tapping in during this period even if ball is moving.

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I can't say I am wild about the rule. As I read it it somewhat unfair. 

 

If a ball at rest spontaneously move and falls in the hole, it does not count and you need to replace it, but if ball spontaneously moves and rolls further from the hole you must play from its here spot (further from the hole).

 

I am afraid I do not follow. If a ball on the putting green starts to move by wind or gravity and that ball has not been lifted and replaced it is played from the spot where it stops, it is not replaced. If it happens to fall into the hole the ball is holed. And if the ball HAS been lifted and replaced and moves afterwards it has to be replaced no matter where it ends up.

 

Also if the ball if overhanging and falls into the hole it is not replaced but it is holed. The score depends on whether it fell during the 10 sec waiting period or after.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

2 strokes is brutal for mine (and I realize that was the rule for the longest time.)

 

Personally I'd say, if the ball is overhanging the hole, the player should have a reasonable time to reach the ball plus an additional 10 seconds. If it falls in it's in on the previous stroke. If it doesn't, it is still "holed" add one stroke and pick it up. After the 10s it doesn't matter what the ball does because it would no longer be 'in play'.

 

Yes it breaks the "always hole out in stroke play rule", but it eliminates any confusion over what happens after 10 seconds, and (serious question) has anyone ever known of a missed putt where the ball was overhanging the hole (other than a swing and a miss)? before the putt?

 

Personally ? I'd say, except for the "undue delay" you pretty much covered the current rule.

 

Other than a swing and miss ? Nope. Hard to even happen actually unless the putter hits the ball away from the hole - any strike of the ball towards the hole would have to knock it in, no ?

 

Seen any number of whiffs though. Rickie recently went to tap it in and stubbed the putter and never reached the ball. Not sure if that's exactly what a "swing and a miss" means though.

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

2 strokes is brutal for mine (and I realize that was the rule for the longest time.)

 

Personally I'd say, if the ball is overhanging the hole, the player should have a reasonable time to reach the ball plus an additional 10 seconds. If it falls in it's in on the previous stroke. If it doesn't, it is still "holed" add one stroke and pick it up. After the 10s it doesn't matter what the ball does because it would no longer be 'in play'.

 

What do you mean 'it would no longer be in play' ? If the ball does not fall into the hole by itself that ball is very much in play and needs to be holed as per R3.3c. Or am I missing something here..?

[Halebopp]

31 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What do you mean 'it would no longer be in play' ? If the ball does not fall into the hole by itself that ball is very much in play and needs to be holed as per R3.3c. Or am I missing something here..?

 

I believe he was suggesting a ball overhanging the hole would be holed regardless of whether or not it falls into the hole. If it doesn't fall into the hole, a player could simply pick it up and add a stroke to his/her score.

[2bGood]

17 hours ago, rogolf said:

It may seem arbitrary to you, but it was implemented for very good reason and has survived the test of time.  After a reasonable amount of time for the player to reach the ball/hole, and another 10 seconds, the ball is deemed to be at rest; whether it is or not at rest is irrelevant.

One could argue that the three minute search Rule is also arbitrary, but it is the Rule.

Yes but the rule contradicting itself is where I have the issue. If a ball is deemed to be at rest and moves in one direction (the hole) it must be replaced. If it moves in the other direction (away from the hole) it must be played where it stops. If we are going to say the ball is at rest after 10 seconds then it should be treated the same way regardless of what it does after that. Just my opinion.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

Yes but the rule contradicting itself is where I have the issue. If a ball is deemed to be at rest and moves in one direction (the hole) it must be replaced. If it moves in the other direction (away from the hole) it must be played where it stops. If we are going to say the ball is at rest after 10 seconds then it should be treated the same way regardless of what it does after that. Just my opinion.

 

 

To be clear, if you strike the ball and it comes to rest, say, an inch from the cup and then the wind blows it somewhere -- either in the hole or away from the hole -- the ball is not replaced.  It's either holed based on the preceding stroke or sitting in its new location awaiting your next action.  

 

The issue of replacing a ball comes into play after it has been marked and lifted.  If it hasn't, it remains "live."

 

Bringing this back around to a ball overhanging the hole, I believe the rule is ideal as it is.  Give it a touch of time to fall, then putt it if it doesn't.  And if it falls after the prescribed time, just treat it as if you tapped it in, albeit by adding a penalty stroke instead of making a real stroke.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

I believe he was suggesting a ball overhanging the hole would be holed regardless of whether or not it falls into the hole. If it doesn't fall into the hole, a player could simply pick it up and add a stroke to his/her score.

 

Yup, I got the same impression but that is not correct, that ball must be holed one way or another.

[Augster]

8 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Yes but the rule contradicting itself is where I have the issue. If a ball is deemed to be at rest and moves in one direction (the hole) it must be replaced. If it moves in the other direction (away from the hole) it must be played where it stops. If we are going to say the ball is at rest after 10 seconds then it should be treated the same way regardless of what it does after that. Just my opinion.

 

 

Where are you seeing this? 
 

If a putted ball rolls and comes to rest, then the wind, gravity, etc start moving it again, you play from the new spot as it was never marked and lifted after being struck. 
 

If you walk up, mark and lift the ball, then set it down and it starts moving due to wind, gravity, etc. you replace the ball where it was marked and lifted. 
 

It doesn’t matter if it’s blown forward or backward, off the green, or into the cup. If it wasn’t marked, play from the new location or count it as holed. If it was marked, replace it to where it was marked. 

[2bGood]

12 hours ago, Augster said:

Where are you seeing this? 
 

If a putted ball rolls and comes to rest, then the wind, gravity, etc start moving it again, you play from the new spot as it was never marked and lifted after being struck. 
 

If you walk up, mark and lift the ball, then set it down and it starts moving due to wind, gravity, etc. you replace the ball where it was marked and lifted. 
 

It doesn’t matter if it’s blown forward or backward, off the green, or into the cup. If it wasn’t marked, play from the new location or count it as holed. If it was marked, replace it to where it was marked. 

Here is what is see----(In both instance I am talking about an unmarked ball):

Rule 13.3 states that if the ball overhanging the hole moves after the 10 seconds waiting period and falls in the hole, it must be replaced.

Rule 9.3 States that if a ball moves (by natural forces) after it comes to rest it must be played from its new spot.

 

So if a ball is overhanging the hole and after 10 seconds is blown in the hole it is replaced and not holed under 13.3. However if a ball is blown away from the hole it is played in the new location under rule 9.3. Seems inconsistent to me.

 

What I find even more inconsistent is if the ball is not overhanging the hole (say it is 1" away) and the wind blows it in, 13.3 would not apply and 9.3 would apply and it would be holed. 

 

Let me know what I am missing.

 

[Sawgrass]

Good, you’re not “missing” anything other than the value of forcing players to move on at some point when their ball is overhanging the hole. As I’m sure no one wants to let them wait forever, the current system is IMO reasonable and effective.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Sawgrass

[Dpavs]

You know I never thought about this part as allowing for a situation where a player could get a hole in one but have to card it as a 2 or am I not considering something that would otherwise affect this?

 

"If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole."

[nsxguy]

37 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

You know I never thought about this part as allowing for a situation where a player could get a hole in one but have to card it as a 2 or am I not considering something that would otherwise affect this?

 

"If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole."

 

Not sure I understand your "question".

 

For a HIO the player is > 100 yards away and would take at least a minute or 2 to get to the ball.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule you then get 10 seconds to wait for it to fall for a HIO. After that, it's a 2.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Here is what is see----(In both instance I am talking about an unmarked ball):

Rule 13.3 states that if the ball overhanging the hole moves after the 10 seconds waiting period and falls in the hole, it must be replaced.

Rule 9.3 States that if a ball moves (by natural forces) after it comes to rest it must be played from its new spot.

 

So if a ball is overhanging the hole and after 10 seconds is blown in the hole it is replaced and not holed under 13.3. However if a ball is blown away from the hole it is played in the new location under rule 9.3. Seems inconsistent to me.

 

What I find even more inconsistent is if the ball is not overhanging the hole (say it is 1" away) and the wind blows it in, 13.3 would not apply and 9.3 would apply and it would be holed. 

 

Let me know what I am missing.

 

 

Aren't there many instances of "inconsistencies" in the Rules because of different areas of the course ? Different situations during play ? Even if you're on a green but not the one for the hole you're playing ?

 

And often there are exceptions to a Rule. That's "inconsistent" too, right ?

 

So 9.3 applies everywhere except when the ball is overhanging the hole. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Dpavs]

29 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Not sure I understand your "question".

 

For a HIO the player is > 100 yards away and would take at least a minute or 2 to get to the ball.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule you then get 10 seconds to wait for it to fall for a HIO. After that, it's a 2.

 

Maybe not really a question but more of an observation?

Here is the scenario I am thinking of. A player tees off on a par three and the ball ends up overhanging the cup. The player approaches the hole and waits more than 10 seconds after which the ball drops into the cup prior to the player putting out. Technically the player has made a hole in one, but has to card a 2 because of the penalty stroke right?

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

 

Maybe not really a question but more of an observation?

Here is the scenario I am thinking of. A player tees off on a par three and the ball ends up overhanging the cup. The player approaches the hole and waits more than 10 seconds after which the ball drops into the cup prior to the player putting out. Technically the player has made a hole in one, but has to card a 2 because of the penalty stroke right?

 

Yeah, I think I got the gist the first time. And AFAIK you're correct.

 

But IMO he DIDN'T "technically" make a HIO. In fact, if anything, technically, i.e. by Rule, he made a 2. He waited too long.

[Dpavs]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yeah, I think I got the gist the first time. And AFAIK you're correct.

 

But IMO he DIDN'T "technically" make a HIO. In fact, if anything, technically, i.e. by Rule, he made a 2. He waited too long.

 

I see it differently I guess. The penalty being assessed affects the score but not the actual event of having a hole in one.  Why? The language "the player has holed out with the previous stroke" makes me read this to mean the player holed out in one stroke technically but then had to take a penalty and has to card the 2.  To me this is much the same as if a player had a hole in one and then discovered right afterwards that they had too many clubs in their bag. In either case the players score card is not going to show a one but the player did have a hole in one.

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

 

I see it differently I guess. The penalty being assessed affects the score but not the actual event of having a hole in one.  Why? The language "the player has holed out with the previous stroke" makes me read this to mean the player holed out in one stroke technically but then had to take a penalty and has to card the 2.  To me this is much the same as if a player had a hole in one and then discovered right afterwards that they had too many clubs in their bag. In either case the players score card is not going to show a one but the player did have a hole in one.

 

OK. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[2bGood]

42 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Aren't there many instances of "inconsistencies" in the Rules because of different areas of the course ? Different situations during play ? Even if you're on a green but not the one for the hole you're playing ?

 

And often there are exceptions to a Rule. That's "inconsistent" too, right ?

 

So 9.3 applies everywhere except when the ball is overhanging the hole. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

Yes, but it does not mean I have to like it. ? I prefer the rules have some elegance and symmetry and I don't see that here.

 

In my own head, of course I am now working on how to make it better. 9.3 is fine as it is. 10.3 has the intention of trying to prevent a player from delaying the round waiting for the ball to fall in the hole. Is there a better way to do that??? Perhaps make it one stroke penalty for delaying the marking of the ball for the purpose of waiting for it to fall in the hole and cover it in rule 5.6? Same net effect.

[nsxguy]

24 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

Yes, but it does not mean I have to like it. ? I prefer the rules have some elegance and symmetry and I don't see that here.

 

In my own head, of course I am now working on how to make it better. 9.3 is fine as it is. 10.3 has the intention of trying to prevent a player from delaying the round waiting for the ball to fall in the hole. Is there a better way to do that??? Perhaps make it one stroke penalty for delaying the marking of the ball for the purpose of waiting for it to fall in the hole and cover it in rule 5.6? Same net effect.

 

Yes, you don't have to like it.

 

Personally I try not to delve too deeply in to my own head - I'm afraid of what I might find,,,,,,,

 

Elegance and symmetry ? Sure (just don't look too closely).

 

[Halebopp]

5 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Rule 13.3 states that if the ball overhanging the hole moves after the 10 seconds waiting period and falls in the hole, it must be replaced.

 

Except Rule 13.3 tells us that if the ball falls into the hole after the ten-second waiting period, it is considered holed with the previous stroke and a penalty stroke is added to the player's score.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Halebopp

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Except Rule 13.3 tells us that if the ball falls into the hole after the ten-second waiting period, it is considered holed with the previous stroke and a penalty stroke is added to the player's score.

 

Don't I have egg on my face? You are correct, not sure where I got so muddle up about replacing the ball.

 

Ignore me, I am taking a self imposed time out from this thread until I can come up with something that is in any way cogent. 

 

Carry on. ?

Edited August 27, 2020 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Here is what is see----(In both instance I am talking about an unmarked ball):

Rule 13.3 states that if the ball overhanging the hole moves after the 10 seconds waiting period and falls in the hole, it must be replaced.

Rule 9.3 States that if a ball moves (by natural forces) after it comes to rest it must be played from its new spot.

 

So if a ball is overhanging the hole and after 10 seconds is blown in the hole it is replaced and not holed under 13.3. However if a ball is blown away from the hole it is played in the new location under rule 9.3. Seems inconsistent to me.

 

What I find even more inconsistent is if the ball is not overhanging the hole (say it is 1" away) and the wind blows it in, 13.3 would not apply and 9.3 would apply and it would be holed. 

 

Let me know what I am missing.

 

 

 I believe you are missing the understanding of written text:

 

'If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:
 The ball is treated as being at rest.
 If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole.' (Rule 13.3a)

 

I am not sure which part you find difficult to understand but the bolded part is not consistent with your opinion.

 

EDIT: Oh my, you had been answered already, sorry.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Mr. Bean
Had not read all the latest posts.