Stake Hole in Penalty Area

[SkiSchoolPro]

Is there any relief if your ball ends up in a man made hole within a red penalty area?

 

Yesterday a friend hits a pitch shot that hits a red stake and sinks into the hole, about the size of a standard cup, that the red stake is in.

 

Red Stake is located about a foot INSIDE red line for a greenside penalty area that is mostly long grass (at least near the green).

 

Earlier in the round, I gave him relief from an animal hole in an unmaintained general area near OB, but didn't think free relief was available from within a penalty area.

[SecondandGoal]

If by "a foot INSIDE red line", you mean that it was a foot into the penalty area, then NO, he gets no relief.

 

The rule of thumb is "the stake guides, but the line defines" when it comes to penalty areas, so the stake was part of the penalty area. Within a penalty area, there is no relief of any kind (including removing loose impediments, abnormal ground conditions, or man-made obstructions) except to take the one stroke penalty and standard relief from the penalty area itself. 

[Halebopp]

This is the exact reason why stakes used to identify a Penalty Area should be placed outside of the PA.

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/2#2c_2

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, SecondandGoal said:

If by "a foot INSIDE red line", you mean that it was a foot into the penalty area, then NO, he gets no relief.

 

The rule of thumb is "the stake guides, but the line defines" when it comes to penalty areas, so the stake was part of the penalty area. Within a penalty area, there is no relief of any kind (including removing loose impediments, abnormal ground conditions, or man-made obstructions) except to take the one stroke penalty and standard relief from the penalty area itself. 

Why can’t I move a loose impediment in the penalty area? See rule 15.1 

[Newby]

3 hours ago, SecondandGoal said:

Within a penalty area, there is no relief of any kind (including removing loose impediments,

I'm afraid you are a bit behind the times.

[antip]

7 hours ago, SecondandGoal said:

If by "a foot INSIDE red line", you mean that it was a foot into the penalty area, then NO, he gets no relief.

 

The rule of thumb is "the stake guides, but the line defines" when it comes to penalty areas, so the stake was part of the penalty area. Within a penalty area, there is no relief of any kind (including removing loose impediments, abnormal ground conditions, or man-made obstructions) except to take the one stroke penalty and standard relief from the penalty area itself. 

"there is no relief of any kind" is incorrect

 

The relief rule 15 - loose impediments and movable obstructions - provides equivalent relief in penalty areas to the rest of the course.

Edited October 4, 2020 by antip

[SecondandGoal]

I stand corrected on the loose impediment. 

[SkiSchoolPro]

So bottom line under current rules- he could remove the stake as a moveable obstruction, but no relief from the stake hole eventhough it was incorrectly located on the interior of the penalty area? What happens if the ball moves in the process of removing the stake?

 

Given that it was a friendly match, could we institute our own local rule giving relief from the stake hole and/or under equity/spirit of the game?

Edited October 4, 2020 by SkiSchoolPro

[Sawgrass]

17 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

So bottom line under current rules- he could remove the stake as a moveable obstruction, but no relief from the stake hole eventhough it was incorrectly located on the interior of the penalty area? What happens if the ball moves in the process of removing the stake?

 

Given that it was a friendly match, could we institute our own local rule giving relief from the stake hole and/or under equity/spirit of the game?

If a ball moves while removing a moveable obstruction, you simply replace it.

The Local Rule you describe would not be acceptable to the Ruling Bodies if the hole was in a penalty area.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Given that it was a friendly match, could we institute our own local rule giving relief from the stake hole and/or under equity/spirit of the game?

 

What you decide to do in a friendly match is entirely up to you players but do not try to post the score for handicap purposes if you decide to do something that is not supported by the Rules.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[SkiSchoolPro]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What you decide to do in a friendly match is entirely up to you players but do not try to post the score for handicap purposes if you decide to do something that is not supported by the Rules.

I let him take a free drop (he lost the hole anyways) and posted my score. I don't know if he posted his score. I believe I followed the rules with respect to my own ball, but under the ROG am I disqualified for waiving a rule?

 

Should I contact my association to have them remove my score from ghin?

Edited October 4, 2020 by SkiSchoolPro

[Mr. Bean]

26 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

I let him take a free drop (he lost the hole anyways) and posted my score. I don't know if he posted his score. I believe I followed the rules with respect to my own ball, but under the ROG am I disqualified for waiving a rule?

 

Should I contact my association to have them remove my score from ghin?

 

I sincerely doubt this event would somehow jeopardize your future as a golfer so maybe you just lay low and keep quiet...

 

Then the Rules view. If you and your opponent agreed to grant him relief you were both disqualified from the match. But if you simple ignored him taking the relief and did not take any part in it yourself then you are both ok. Afa the GHIN is concerned I do not know if a score can be accepted if a player is DQ'd for a breach that did not affect his score. Maybe someone familiar with the USGA handicap manual can shed some light to that.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

I let him take a free drop (he lost the hole anyways) and posted my score. I don't know if he posted his score. I believe I followed the rules with respect to my own ball, but under the ROG am I disqualified for waiving a rule?

 

Should I contact my association to have them remove my score from ghin?

Only ask the score to be removed if it was a good(counting) score.**

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

** and yes I am kidding

[antip]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I sincerely doubt this event would somehow jeopardize your future as a golfer so maybe you just lay low and keep quiet...

 

Then the Rules view. If you and your opponent agreed to grant him relief you were both disqualified from the match. But if you simple ignored him taking the relief and did not take any part in it yourself then you are both ok. Afa the GHIN is concerned I do not know if a score can be accepted if a player is DQ'd for a breach that did not affect his score. Maybe someone familiar with the USGA handicap manual can shed some light to that.

The second sentence of the second para above needs to be (heavily) qualified. There is no DQ unless you were both aware that the rules did not permit the granting of relief. So there are no issues with posting your score.

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, antip said:

The second sentence of the second para above needs to be (heavily) qualified. There is no DQ unless you were both aware that the rules did not permit the granting of relief. So there are no issues with posting your score.

 

From the post it seemed clear they knew it ('didn't think free relief was available from within a penalty area.') but fair comment nevertheless.

[Augster]

You can still post the score. That hole, when not played by the actual rules, just gets posted as par plus any handicap shots. 
 

The rest of the round stands as played. 

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

You can still post the score. That hole, when not played by the actual rules, just gets posted as par plus any handicap shots. 
 

The rest of the round stands as played. 

Don't you mean par plus 2 plus any handicap stroke(s)?

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Don't you mean par plus 2 plus any handicap stroke(s)?

 

Colin, it is the USGA... 🤓

Edited October 5, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Augster]

42 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Don't you mean par plus 2 plus any handicap stroke(s)?

No. Par plus for holes played outside the rules of golf. It’s a penalty for not playing correctly resulting in a “slightly” lower score for posting purposes. 
 

EDIT: I should say this is how it used to be before WHS. I’m looking through my WHS stuff and having a hard time finding this specific instance. So maybe they changed that also. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Augster

[Augster]

6 minutes ago, Augster said:

No. Par plus for holes played outside the rules of golf. It’s a penalty for not playing correctly resulting in a “slightly” lower score for posting purposes. 
 

EDIT: I should say this is how it used to be before WHS. I’m looking through my WHS stuff and having a hard time finding this specific instance. So maybe they changed that also. 

You are right Colin. I found it. Adjusted to NDB. 
 

2.1b/3 – Hole Not Played by The Rules of Golf in General Play

Where a player has breached the Rules of Golf in general play and knowingly failed to apply the correct penalty, the score should not be accepted for handicap purposes. However, in some circumstances, individual hole score(s) may be adjusted to a net double bogey to produce an acceptable score.
If the Handicap Committee determines that the player is using the net double bogey adjustment to gain an unfair scoring advantage, the Handicap Committee must take action under Rule 7 of the Rules of Handicapping.

 

So, as far as I can tell, a hole not played at all is Par+ but a hole not played by the rules is NDB for posting purposes. 
 

Learn something new every day. Thanks for bringing it up. 
 

[Mr. Bean]

'So, as far as I can tell, a hole not played at all is Par+ but a hole not played by the rules is NDB for posting purposes.'

 

Makes no sense whatsoever. After all, a hole not played has not been played by the Rules. Oh well...

 

Maybe the idea is that you cannot get a good score by not playing by the Rules. Dunno.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

'So, as far as I can tell, a hole not played at all is Par+ but a hole not played by the rules is NDB for posting purposes.'

 

Makes no sense whatsoever. After all, a hole not played has not been played by the Rules. Oh well...

 

Maybe the idea is that you cannot get a good score by not playing by the Rules. Dunno.

Yes, you cannot submit a hole score played to handicap if the rules were not applied and you would have received a penalty under the rules.

But returning to the OP match play situation, that would not impact Skischoolpro's card - his score did not benefit from failing to apply a penalty, it would only impact a card submitted by the opponent.

[rogolf]

There seems to be continuing confusion between the Rules of golf and the "rules" issued by the national handicapping authorities.  Imo, these are completely separate issues - the Rules of golf are universal throughout the world whereas the "rules" of handicapping are quite different by country/region, and never the twain shall meet.

It seems that some handicapping authorities are wont to be very powerful and controlling whereas others realize that they are providing a service to golfers - different cultures.

Edited October 6, 2020 by rogolf

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

'So, as far as I can tell, a hole not played at all is Par+ but a hole not played by the rules is NDB for posting purposes.'

 

Makes no sense whatsoever. After all, a hole not played has not been played by the Rules. Oh well...

 

Maybe the idea is that you cannot get a good score by not playing by the Rules. Dunno.

This is for posting purposes, like for when it gets too dark to play. 
 

You play 14 holes by the ROG, but now it’s way past dusk and too dark to play so you walk in. Because you played 14 holes, you must post a score. 
 

Without posting par+ for those holes not played, 15-18, what is a more equitable solution? Make them keep playing in the dark with all the lost balls and E5 after every shot and limited to NDB? 
 

Most of ROTW would say, “You just don’t post it.” That’s not our requirement in the US. We MUST post the score if we complete 14 holes by the ROG and other WHS rules. Par+, I feel, is the most equitable way to fill in those holes not played. 

[antip]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

There seems to be continuing confusion between the Rules of golf and the "rules" issued by the national handicapping authorities.  Imo, these are completely separate issues - the Rules of golf are universal throughout the world whereas the "rules" of handicapping are quite different by country/region, and never the twain shall meet.

It seems that some handicapping authorities are wont to be very powerful and controlling whereas others realize that they are providing a service to golfers - different cultures.

I didn't think anyone was confusing the two dimensions, the earlier rules discussion tree had evolved a handicap card issue limb. But I agree with your handicapping authority observations.