New World Handicap System - whats your new cap?

[IvanDrago]

For the UK brahs the new WHS is live on Englandgolf.org.

 

you have to register using your cdh, they email you a verification code then you can sign up.

 

My old CONGU h/cap was 4.1 after a bad 2020.

 

My new WHS is 3.0

 

Puts me in the top 3% in the world and top 2% in England. 😅

 

Whats your old vs new? 

[Divot License]

My old was 3.7 my new is 1.2

Edited October 23, 2020 by Jedaigeki

[Mignuz]

I'm curious to see what happens. 

In Italy the new hcp system will start from january. 

I actually made a simulation, as the federation program already reports the "handicap played" for every score.

I took the last 20 results and considered the average handicap summing the best 8.

If I consider a 9 hole result (where the handicap played is - 5,2 I played -3 on 9 holes) my handicap would be 1.7.

If I don't consider that score, my handicap would be 3.0.

I'm actually 4.0 with the EGA system.

[Moxley]

Old 15.4, new 18.1 😕

[Newby]

If you are in England, many of the figures on the WHS Platform are wrong. It was only a test run. There were errors in the program or the specification and a number of anomalies in the data picked up from the current central database.

It should be all corrected by Nov 1 and you will be able your see the correct figures  on 2 Nov (hopefully).

 

Incidentally, the figure shown is the Handicap Index not the Course (or Playing) Handicap

Edited October 24, 2020 by Newby

[Green Man]

I went from 4.9 to 3.4 however as stated above it is incorrect as I have a few scores missing including a 71 which will bring it down a bit. It’s a bit concerning as our course SSS was +1 over par so I used to get 6 shots. According to the calculations I now get 3. 
 

I guess it will all even out eventually.

[Newby]

5 hours ago, Green Man said:

 It’s a bit concerning as our course SSS was +1 over par so I used to get 6 shots. According to the calculations I now get 3. 
 

 

What has par got to do with it? Why wouldn't the CR be the same as the SSS (except for the decimal precision)?

 

Is the 3 your 'proposed' Handicap Index or your Course Handicap?

3.4 would be a handicap index. You'll get more when you look up your course handicap 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Newby

[naval2006]

New world handicap in Argentina started in January.  The early months of implementing the system were a real mess for clubs and the GA.  I think with COVID in March and the game called off they had time to adjust and now we have been playing with the new handicap since we returned to the course in July.  We don't have a way to check and confront new vs old handicap.  

[Colin L]

You shouldn't be making a direct comparison between your Handicap Index and your CONGU handicap.  They mean different things and are based on a different calculation.  What you should compare is the number of strokes you get for the course you are going to play - your Course Handicap - with how many your CONGU one gave you.

[PaulBoy]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:04 PM, Newby said:

If you are in England, many of the figures on the WHS Platform are wrong. It was only a test run. There were errors in the program or the specification and a number of anomalies in the data picked up from the current central database.

It should be all corrected by Nov 1 and you will be able your see the correct figures  on 2 Nov (hopefully).

 

Incidentally, the figure shown is the Handicap Index not the Course (or Playing) Handicap

Hello ... I received an email from England Golf advising me the WHS was "Live" and I could login to check my WHS Handicap Index

I had looked a week or so ago & based on this thread, ignored the figure given (1.2) especially as my CONGU handicap is currently 4.5 & has never been below 4.3

When I login now my WHS Handicap Index is 2.6 - That is the only handicap showing (no mention of a Course / Playing Handicap?) - My scores back to Feb 2018 are listed but scores don't go back any further despite the fact that there would be plenty more before that? 

I thought the WHS was supposed to simplify handicaps? - Don't get me started on Slope either!

Paul

[Colin L]

@PaulBoy

So much not understood!  

 

Your Handicap Index  is a measure of the number of strokes you need on a standard course  (Slope 113) to be on a level with a scratch player.  Mine relates to the same notional standard course as does everyone else's who holds a WHS handicap.  That's what makes it universally comparable.  You then take it to any course you want to play and find out how many strokes you get for that course. Unlike your CONGU handicap which gives you the same number of strokes on whatever course you play,  your WHS handicap index gives you a bespoke handicap for each course. There isn't a single course handicap that your app could display.  It would have to display one for every measured course in the world.

 

There won't be much difference if any between your Handicap Index and your Course Handicap wherever you play because you are so close to scratch. Off the white tees at my club (slope 126)  your course handicap would be 3 and off  the championship tees at Carnoustie (slope 143) it would also be 3  .  For me on a Handicap Index of 19.1,  my course handicap at home will be 21  but at Carnoustie it would be 24.   

 

That's what slope does for us but you don't have to understand it.  Just let it do its job and the actual process of using your handicap index is simple enough: turn up at a course for a competition, find out your course handicap from a chart or an app, enjoy your game, return your gross scores, find out later where you came on the leaderboard, and find out the next day if your handicap index has changed.  Job done, No complicated sums involved. No sums at all, in fact.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Colin L

[Divot License]

5 hours ago, PaulBoy said:

Hello ... I received an email from England Golf advising me the WHS was "Live" and I could login to check my WHS Handicap Index

I had looked a week or so ago & based on this thread, ignored the figure given (1.2) especially as my CONGU handicap is currently 4.5 & has never been below 4.3

When I login now my WHS Handicap Index is 2.6 - That is the only handicap showing (no mention of a Course / Playing Handicap?) - My scores back to Feb 2018 are listed but scores don't go back any further despite the fact that there would be plenty more before that? 

I thought the WHS was supposed to simplify handicaps? - Don't get me started on Slope either!

Paul

https://www.englandgolf.org/whs/

 

Read through the England Golf website, it explains it all pretty clearly. 

[PaulBoy]

10 hours ago, Colin L said:

@PaulBoy

So much not understood!  

 

Your Handicap Index  is a measure of the number of strokes you need on a standard course  (Slope 113) to be on a level with a scratch player.  Mine relates to the same notional standard course as does everyone else's who holds a WHS handicap.  That's what makes it universally comparable.  You then take it to any course you want to play and find out how many strokes you get for that course. Unlike your CONGU handicap which gives you the same number of strokes on whatever course you play,  your WHS handicap index gives you a bespoke handicap for each course. There isn't a single course handicap that your app could display.  It would have to display one for every measured course in the world.

 

There won't be much difference if any between your Handicap Index and your Course Handicap wherever you play because you are so close to scratch. Off the white tees at my club (slope 126)  your course handicap would be 3 and off  the championship tees at Carnoustie (slope 143) it would also be 3  .  For me on a Handicap Index of 19.1,  my course handicap at home will be 21  but at Carnoustie it would be 24.   

 

That's what slope does for us but you don't have to understand it.  Just let it do its job and the actual process of using your handicap index is simple enough: turn up at a course for a competition, find out your course handicap from a chart or an app, enjoy your game, return your gross scores, find out later where you came on the leaderboard, and find out the next day if your handicap index has changed.  Job done, No complicated sums involved. No sums at all, in fact.

 

Hello & thanks for the reply which is helpful in several respects - I did try to read through the large pdf that England Golf created, but I don't recall anything about how existing CONGU handicaps would be "converted" to the WHS system, but it is possible I missed that? - It will be interesting to see if other Cat 1 CONGU handicap holders also find their Handicap Index reduced to the level mine has? - Most (senior) golfers I play with are high handicaps & most seem to have been allocated a higher WHS Handicap Index than their current CONGU one? - This seems to make the gulf between low & high handicaps even wider than it is now?

 

As to Slope ... I understand how it works, but I don't feel it works fairly - As an example: My home club has a Slope 124 - My brother plays at Ballyliffin GC in ROI - The Glashedy Links has a slope of 138 - Even when I thought I'd be playing off 5, I was only going to get one extra stroke & would play off 6? - I have played Glashedy 20+ times & never played to handicap! - It is a minimum of 3 & closer to 5 shots harder on a relatively calm day (a three club wind is considered calm there!) - Any windier & I'd be happy to break 100 - Maybe I have misunderstood Slope in the context of WHS / Course Handicap etc so if that is the case I am happy to be corrected...

 

Thank you ... Paul

10 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

 

 

 

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, PaulBoy said:

Hello & thanks for the reply which is helpful in several respects - I did try to read through the large pdf that England Golf created, but I don't recall anything about how existing CONGU handicaps would be "converted" to the WHS system, but it is possible I missed that? - It will be interesting to see if other Cat 1 CONGU handicap holders also find their Handicap Index reduced to the level mine has?

 

You won't find anything about converting your CONGU handicap to the WHS because that's not what is happening.  Your WHS handicap index is based solely on your last 20 gross scores, the CSS of each comp ( or SSS  if no CSS) and the slope rating(s) of the course(s) played.  Your CONGU handicap has no part in the calculation.  Consequently, you can't say that your CONGU handicap has been reduced or increased or is the same .  It was differently calculated and meant something different.

[PaulBoy]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

You won't find anything about converting your CONGU handicap to the WHS because that's not what is happening.  Your WHS handicap index is based solely on your last 20 gross scores, the CSS of each comp ( or SSS  if no CSS) and the slope rating(s) of the course(s) played.  Your CONGU handicap has no part in the calculation.  Consequently, you can't say that your CONGU handicap has been reduced or increased or is the same .  It was differently calculated and meant something different.

Thanks again! - I saw on EG my competition scores back to early 2018 were all listed, so I will have to get used to having an Index instead of a handicap (?)

Regards ... Paul

[Colin L]

18 minutes ago, PaulBoy said:

Thanks again! - I saw on EG my competition scores back to early 2018 were all listed, so I will have to get used to having an Index instead of a handicap (?)

Regards ... Paul

Yes.  That's the biggest change for us in CONGU, but a good one in my view.  I like the thought of taking my Handicap Index to any course anywhere and getting the number of strokes I need on that particular course.  

[Deceptively Short]

15 minutes ago, Colin L said:

Yes.  That's the biggest change for us in CONGU, but a good one in my view.  I like the thought of taking my Handicap Index to any course anywhere and getting the number of strokes I need on that particular course.  

That’s exactly why I would like CR-Par to have been included in the change (as per the rest of the world). With my new HI of 5.0 slope has little effect on the shots I ‘need’ but for example if I was playing the at Carnoustie I would ‘need’ and get 4 extra shots even playing off the yellows for the Cr-par calculation. I fully understand that I can ‘do the maths’ afterwards but it would be nice to have it done for me before I go out.

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, Deceptively Short said:

That’s exactly why I would like CR-Par to have been included in the change (as per the rest of the world). With my new HI of 5.0 slope has little effect on the shots I ‘need’ but for example if I was playing the at Carnoustie I would ‘need’ and get 4 extra shots even playing off the yellows for the Cr-par calculation. I fully understand that I can ‘do the maths’ afterwards but it would be nice to have it done for me before I go out.

 

Unless one keeps track of their "best differential ever", which nobody I've ever heard of does, the (CR-PAR) inclusion is irrelevant in ANY competition where ALL players are playing from the same tees.

 

I am led to believe the vast majority of comps played in the UK world are with ALL players playing from the same set of tees.

 

For a comp where players are playing from different tees, you either need the CR-PAR calc in the Course handicap calc OR you need to adjust the CHs manually.

[Deceptively Short]

I understand that but at the moment if I get 32 points at Carnoustie playing off the yellows, I have played to my handicap.
However, as we now have to check our shot allowance per course/tee, something we never did before, it would be nice simply to get the correct amount of shots to know that the target is always 36 points or net par.

This is just as valid when playing an easier course as there is nothing more disappointing than getting 38 points and realising that you haven’t  even played to your handicap.

Good to have the shots you ‘need’ whilst playing.

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

That’s exactly why I would like CR-Par to have been included in the change (as per the rest of the world). With my new HI of 5.0 slope has little effect on the shots I ‘need’ but for example if I was playing the at Carnoustie I would ‘need’ and get 4 extra shots even playing off the yellows for the Cr-par calculation. I fully understand that I can ‘do the maths’ afterwards but it would be nice to have it done for me before I go out.

It seems to me as it does to nsxguy,  that this  maths is totally irrelevant to knowing whether you have played to your handicap.  That's just a matter of comparing your net score with the course rating, is it not?

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, Colin L said:

It seems to me as it does to nsxguy,  that this  maths is totally irrelevant to knowing whether you have played to your handicap.  That's just a matter of comparing your net score with the course rating, is it not?

It's better to compare your differential to your handicap index.  That truly indicates whether you played to your cap.

[cardoustie]

We moved early in the year to the new system .. it’s better with 8 scores, less cap movement here in Canada for sure

[Sean2]

My HI didn't change.

[Deceptively Short]

12 minutes ago, Colin L said:

It seems to me as it does to nsxguy,  that this  maths is totally irrelevant to knowing whether you have played to your handicap.  That's just a matter of comparing your net score with the course rating, is it not?

Why is this maths 'totally irrelevant', by having the cr-par in the calculation of your course handicap you have no need to compare your net score with the course rating; it has already been done for you.

If you hit 36 points or net level par then you have played to your handicap - simples.

At the moment (on my course) if I score 38 points off our blues or 36 points off the yellows or 34 points off the whites then I have played to my handicap - surely slightly more complicated. I understand that before when we only had one handicap number this was the only way. But now, when we have to check our course handicap per course and tee wouldn't it be easier (surely one of the goals of any handicapping system).

[thecumbrian]

A complete shambles up to this point.

 

 

[jubilee_links]

CONGU was 18.4

WHS index is 15.4

Off both club and medal tees at my course I get 18 shots by the new calc so no change.

As with others I dont see the hassle - its just a number and you do some maths - and there will be a handy conversion table at club so you dont have to do any maths.

 

You submit your score and the computer kicks out an answer -  same as before.

No more hanging on to hit the buffer zone, no more 0.1s -

[Pete O'Tube]

Congu 6.8

WHS was 6.9 on Wednesday, now 7.1 on Friday.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Pete O'Tube

[Newby]

12 minutes ago, Pete O'Tube said:

Congu 6.8

WHS was 6.9 on Wednesday, now 7.1 on Friday.

They found a number of errors in the transition routine (do they still call them programs?). They are continually correcting the software and rerunning. They used SSS instead of CSS on the first run. That has been fixed and they are working on others.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

They found a number of errors in the transition routine (do they still call them programs?). They are continually correcting the software and rerunning. They used SSS instead of CSS on the first run. That has been fixed and they are working on others.

 

"Software" is probably the best "catch all". 

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

Why is this maths 'totally irrelevant', by having the cr-par in the calculation of your course handicap you have no need to compare your net score with the course rating; it has already been done for you.

If you hit 36 points or net level par then you have played to your handicap - simples.

At the moment (on my course) if I score 38 points off our blues or 36 points off the yellows or 34 points off the whites then I have played to my handicap - surely slightly more complicated. I understand that before when we only had one handicap number this was the only way. But now, when we have to check our course handicap per course and tee wouldn't it be easier (surely one of the goals of any handicapping system).

 

It seems in your part of the world "playing to one's handicap" is a "thing". I don't ever remember the expression being used in the U.S.

 

May I ask what it actually means ? Is it because with CONGU you had say, 5 handicap strokes, and your net for the round was even par (or better ?) ?

 

Why is it so important ?