Swing Weight - Suggestions

[Noodler]

Manufacturers continue to perpetrate the industry standard of a D2 swingweight.  So they do adjust their head weights and shaft selections to achieve this "magical" D2 swing weight.  Mizuno recently changed their "standard" length to be 1/4" longer (verified in my own MB-20 HMB set).  They reduced their head weights for MP-20 clubs because of this.  So any time golfers start modifying club lengths or grips, etc., they need to be aware of how this will change the feel of the club when swung due to changes in the weight distribution.

 

Since you mentioned GI/SGI type heads like the AP2, I should point out that on-center accuracy is a fitting goal that isn't typically focused on in most fittings.  So the need for a club head to be more forgiving is a direct result of giving a golfer a club that they cannot use to consistently find the center of the face.  Golfers then assume that it's just their lack of skill, when in actuality their performance is being directly impacted by the tool.  Put a tool better fit for them in their hands and watch their apparent "skill" suddenly become much better.  This is why I am quite frustrated with the industry focus on swingweight instead of MOI/MBI.  We need more manufacturers to make it simple to adjust weight and weight balance in our clubs; recognizing that a one-size fits all approach just doesn't work.

[Exactice808]

Ok part 2.   

 

After @Noodler mention shaft balance etc I watched a bunch of Youtube videos, the one that sticks out is the TXG comparing the Tensei Orange vs the Accura Shaft.  This all makes perfect sense based on the the completely different head weights but trying to get the Swing weight similar.  The Shafts themselves have their bias but you can "Cheat" the SW scale to a degree but the results differ.

 

They talk about the head weight and the distribution of weight throughout the club. So what you stated makes total sense now.  What scares me....... We as players don't have access to professional fittings like pro's do.  (Side note, Noodler, I dont recall having too much conversations with you, but I have posted a lot prior, sorry diarrhea posters LOL) But I mentioned prior that I enjoy this part of the game more than playing itself.  I enjoy the specs, tinkering and learning aspect of golf! So bear with my ignorance as I swim through the vast sea of information.

 

Anyways...... This really blows my mind as I recall watching the recent TM video of them building DJ's Driver in the van.  You now have created more questions for me HAHA!  Im sure he has had the opportunity to test thousands of setups.   But what about us regular humans LOL.  We will never in a lifetime get a chance to "really" optimize.  We might get lucky to find something that works. (As you stated, good but not optimal)  That would drive me crazy knowing that there might be something out there that's optimal for me, but I have no idea where and where to start. LOL

 

Going back to @Stuart_G This pisses me off more  as my above example.

 

Say a player buys a rack set of clubs that are "setup right" from factory,  130gram shafts with D2 swing weight.  They want to change to a lighter shaft setup. As I did (115gram). You are now seemingly telling me that the Head weights are NOT all equal from the factory, meaning that they have lighter or heavier head weights for factory installed shafts.  

 

So simply changing the shafts and getting them to the swing weight is not the optimal way, To actually get it right, we should be getting the right head weight to match the shaft.  Simply changing shafts is not optimal? Am I understanding this right?

 

So me messing around with the swing weight the way I am is cheating the system but not really doing anything. Hence what I saw add in the 16grams of split shot, negating everything basically. 

 

 

UGH!!!!  More things to research 

 

 

 

[Noodler]

2 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Ok part 2.   

 

After @Noodler mention shaft balance etc I watched a bunch of Youtube videos, the one that sticks out is the TXG comparing the Tensei Orange vs the Accura Shaft.  This all makes perfect sense based on the the completely different head weights but trying to get the Swing weight similar.  The Shafts themselves have their bias but you can "Cheat" the SW scale to a degree but the results differ.

 

They talk about the head weight and the distribution of weight throughout the club. So what you stated makes total sense now.  What scares me....... We as players don't have access to professional fittings like pro's do.  (Side note, Noodler, I dont recall having too much conversations with you, but I have posted a lot prior, sorry diarrhea posters LOL) But I mentioned prior that I enjoy this part of the game more than playing itself.  I enjoy the specs, tinkering and learning aspect of golf! So bear with my ignorance as I swim through the vast sea of information.

 

Anyways...... This really blows my mind as I recall watching the recent TM video of them building DJ's Driver in the van.  You now have created more questions for me HAHA!  Im sure he has had the opportunity to test thousands of setups.   But what about us regular humans LOL.  We will never in a lifetime get a chance to "really" optimize.  We might get lucky to find something that works. (As you stated, good but not optimal)  That would drive me crazy knowing that there might be something out there that's optimal for me, but I have no idea where and where to start. LOL

 

Going back to @Stuart_G This pisses me off more  as my above example.

 

Say a player buys a rack set of clubs that are "setup right" from factory,  130gram shafts with D2 swing weight.  They want to change to a lighter shaft setup. As I did (115gram). You are now seemingly telling me that the Head weights are NOT all equal from the factory, meaning that they have lighter or heavier head weights for factory installed shafts.  

 

So simply changing the shafts and getting them to the swing weight is not the optimal way, To actually get it right, we should be getting the right head weight to match the shaft.  Simply changing shafts is not optimal? Am I understanding this right?

 

So me messing around with the swing weight the way I am is cheating the system but not really doing anything. Hence what I saw add in the 16grams of split shot, negating everything basically. 

 

 

UGH!!!!  More things to research 

 

 

 

 

This is why many very good golfers recommend that you just forget the swingweight scale, get yourself a roll of lead tape, hit the range, and just start adding tape little by little.  Get the club to feel the way you want it and watch the resulting ball flight.  Don't get caught up in the numbers; focus on your performance.  You will learn a lot through the process about your own swing and how you react to the weight changes. 

 

Later on you can measure the clubs and see where you landed.  There's lots of stories about club sets that have been weighted by feel and then when later measured, turn out to be basically MOI matched.

[Noodler]

Note that I get "caught up in the numbers" because I'm trying to develop my understanding about how to accurately quantify "feel".  If I have a club that feels and performs great, then how to I duplicate that across the remaining clubs?  That's the ultimate goal and why I have been extensively experimenting with the MBI concept over this past season.  I have only just begun using this approach with golfers other than myself and have been actively collecting feedback.  I welcome any fellow WRX'rs to join the investigation and anyone who would like a set of MBI matched clubs to contact me.

[Exactice808]

On 11/9/2020 at 9:29 AM, Noodler said:

Manufacturers continue to perpetrate the industry standard of a D2 swingweight.  So they do adjust their head weights and shaft selections to achieve this "magical" D2 swing weight.  Mizuno recently changed their "standard" length to be 1/4" longer (verified in my own MB-20 HMB set).  They reduced their head weights for MP-20 clubs because of this.  So any time golfers start modifying club lengths or grips, etc., they need to be aware of how this will change the feel of the club when swung due to changes in the weight distribution.

 

Since you mentioned GI/SGI type heads like the AP2, I should point out that on-center accuracy is a fitting goal that isn't typically focused on in most fittings.  So the need for a club head to be more forgiving is a direct result of giving a golfer a club that they cannot use to consistently find the center of the face.  Golfers then assume that it's just their lack of skill, when in actuality their performance is being directly impacted by the tool.  Put a tool better fit for them in their hands and watch their apparent "skill" suddenly become much better.  This is why I am quite frustrated with the industry focus on swingweight instead of MOI/MBI.  We need more manufacturers to make it simple to adjust weight and weight balance in our clubs; recognizing that a one-size fits all approach just doesn't work.

This is exactly what I wanted and intended to learnabout.  Hence the undertaking and trying to better understand what is going on.  To be honest.  The reason that this all really started?  Buddy got fitted for a full TM set, Head to toe,  He is a single to + hdcp player that is a feel player that knows NOTHING about technical specs. I offered to look into what he had for fun (we work together and play once a month) But it surprise me he knows nothing about Specs (shaft pairings, tempo, etc) yet,  is able to play at such a high level.

 

Anyways I started measuring his equipment and found some deviations from his prior sets.  This then scared me into looking into my set and that is why I found issues in my sets.  He is so damn good that I wanted to tweak his sets to flow as best as we could.  Yet from the factory there was some mis matching going on.  NOT substantial like mine,  but I figured if I could tweek with a couple grams here and there to help him shot ridiculously low I could say I was part of it LOL! (Ego)

 

Anyways..... you are helping to expand my knowledge and I truly appreciate it!  

 

 

As for me, as we discuss this is a learning curve to understand what is going on.  Since I have the ES14 to give me ball speed, spin and LA, I feel like I can experiment more.  While swing speed is a little wonky, I can still get ballspeed comparisons, edify like you stated "center strike" efficiencies.  

 

I have been noticing this the MORE I play with the Sub70's.   My biggest error was I was originally, swinging the Cobra MB's in the house,  (Not paying attention to SW)  Trying to save the faces of the Sub70 and then go out to play with the Sub70s. NOW I know its messed up so I ONLY have been swinging the Sub70 period, low and behold last 4rounds,  81.5 avg.  I admit I am 2020 avg about 86,  so dropping almost 5 strokes average in the last 4 rounds seems unbelievable. 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Exactice808

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

AP2's

1) AP2's Original form Factor Titleist, X100 D2/D3.  Right setup worked- Original Setup

2) Changed to 1150GH and clubs went off the rails. Swing weights changed could not play well.

 

As you both mentioned the head weights are also matched at the factory, based on the shaft?  So maybe the X100 being heavier have X head weights to best match the shaft, that's why the weight plugs were so little.  Once we changed the shaft. The head weights where no where near optimal shaft setup and that is why the only way to bring the Swing Weight back up was to dump all that lead weight back in. Effectively negating the "lighter" shaft. I mean I seriously had to dump 16grams in the 4 iron to get it to D2 from C7.  There went any advantage of a light weight 115gram setup vs the 130gram shaft.

 

Just that particular shaft change will not cause that much of a swing weight change.  Maybe 1-2 sw pts at most.    Something else had to have changed to get that kind of result or maybe the original build wasn't what you thought it was.   We really don't have the full picture here.

 

Did you actually measure out the swing eight before the change or are you assuming what it was based on the specs?   

Was the re-shaft built to the exact same playing length?   

Did you measure out the playing length before to verify what they were before reshafting?  

Were any weight plugs that might have been used in the x100 that you did not reuse in the 1150GH's?

Was the same grip used?

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

 

Quote

Going back to @Stuart_G This pisses me off more  as my above example.

 

Say a player buys a rack set of clubs that are "setup right" from factory,  130gram shafts with D2 swing weight.  They want to change to a lighter shaft setup. As I did (115gram). You are now seemingly telling me that the Head weights are NOT all equal from the factory, meaning that they have lighter or heavier head weights for factory installed shafts.  

 

So simply changing the shafts and getting them to the swing weight is not the optimal way, To actually get it right, we should be getting the right head weight to match the shaft.  Simply changing shafts is not optimal? Am I understanding this right?

 

So me messing around with the swing weight the way I am is cheating the system but not really doing anything. Hence what I saw add in the 16grams of split shot, negating everything basically. 

 

 

Many OEM and head models have a 'standard' and a light weight version of the head.   Sometimes referred to as 'A' and 'B' weight heads.   Some they may even have 3 different weights.    But this has little to do with shaft weight.  I've said before but I think I need to say it again.  Shaft weight does not effect swing weight in irons as much as you seem to think.   It might a bit more when you dip down to the ultra-light 60 gm graphite iron shafts.   But the mid and heavier weight shafts will rarely cause much of a swing weight change.   The most I've seen is 3 points and that was only with the high balance point steelfiber i-110.   The 95 gm steelfibers actually swing weight 2 pts heavier than the 110 gm version and only 1 pt lighter than the 127 gm DG's.   

 

So when I see a someone report a much larger change going from x100's to 1150's, the problem is NOT the shaft change.   Something else changed in the build.  Or they really weren't that heavy with the previous shafts.  In your case there is just not enough information about the before and after builds to figure out what happened and why.

 

But back to the head weights.   The different head weights are for helping to manage swing weight for different build playing lengths.   The lightweight heads tend to be about 10 gm lighter than the standard heads and are almost exclusively used for over length builds to allow reasonable swing weights when the playing lengths get to +1" or more.   It's easy to add weight to adjust SW up but you need to start at a lighter base weight if you need to adjust the swing weight down.    So the only time it's usually a problem for standard length builds is if someone buys a second hand set that's over length to save some money and cuts them down (either with the original shafts or when reshafting).    Or maybe they bought an over length build without knowing it.  Or sometimes the factories just screw up and use the wrong heads for a build.  It's always important to check all the specs when you get a new (to you) set of clubs.

 

 

20 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Anyways...... This really blows my mind as I recall watching the recent TM video of them building DJ's Driver in the van.  You now have created more questions for me HAHA!  Im sure he has had the opportunity to test thousands of setups.   But what about us regular humans LOL.  We will never in a lifetime get a chance to "really" optimize.  We might get lucky to find something that works. (As you stated, good but not optimal)  That would drive me crazy knowing that there might be something out there that's optimal for me, but I have no idea where and where to start. LOL

 

Don't over think fitting.   Optimizing isn't really the best way to think of it  (IMO).   I like to look at it this way.  Everyone has their own natural swing.  There is noting about the equipment that will make your swing better.  "There is no secret ingredient."  Fitting is really about minimizing how much the equipment gets in the way of letting you swing your natural swing.  All the different aspects of what we feel from the club can either be in sync with that natural swing or it can distract us from it.    The main difference between us and the pros is that they have a much better idea of what feels work for them and what feels don't work.    You don't need any special equipment or facilities to get that, you need time and experience.   A much more consistent swing can help as well.

 

So the best we can hope for is to take some time and find out what general combination of shaft weight, swing weight, and stiffness profile tends to work well most of the time.   But that's not the same as working well all the time.  Golf is not a game of perfect - and that includes perfection in equipment fitting.  Some range time with a roll of lead tape is usually the best way.   And there may not be one best value,  you may have to settle for narrowing it down to a particular range.

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

17 hours ago, Noodler said:

Note that I get "caught up in the numbers" because I'm trying to develop my understanding about how to accurately quantify "feel".  If I have a club that feels and performs great, then how to I duplicate that across the remaining clubs?  That's the ultimate goal and why I have been extensively experimenting with the MBI concept over this past season.  I have only just begun using this approach with golfers other than myself and have been actively collecting feedback.  I welcome any fellow WRX'rs to join the investigation and anyone who would like a set of MBI matched clubs to contact me.

 

A truly objective representation of feel MUST start with the specific dynamic characteristics of the player being fit.  Feel is all about how the club responds to (really resists) the various accelerations of the club during the swing.   Since everyone's swing is different so everyone's interpretation of feel for a given set of club specs can also be different.   So the only way to properly do it would be to:

1) get a full 3d analysis of the swing,  break that up into certain characteristics  (think of a more complex version of the mizuno optimizer).

2) evaluate the various resistances (linear, 1st moment, second moment) for the given club parts (head, shaft, grip, etc..) over the time of the swing.  Of course factoring in that the stiffness of the shaft can act as a filter or delay for that resistance reaching the hand.   Now you have the contributions of what the player feels.   As a graph of 6D feels that vary over the time of the swing.

 

But you're not really done.   We know that as the club specs change, the swing can change and therefore the dynamics can change and therefore the feel.  

 

3) So now you have to evaluate for that given individual how the swing changes as the club specs changes.   Change them individually so you can properly quantify the effect of each change.   

4) then go back and re calculate the feedback for the new specs and new dynamics.

 

Now you have a detailed and fully objective representation of the feel of the club based on specs.  Of course it's only good for that one player and wont really help anyone else.   But the process still isn't over.   We've quantified the feel and how it changes with the specs.  But we have no idea what is a good fit for the player. or basically how the feels effect the results and which results or swings are going to be better for the player.

 

Now you've done one club for that player, repeat the whole process for all the other clubs in the bag.

 

 

Don't get me wrong.   I love the desire and effort to gain a better understanding and improve the process of fitting.   But doing that does require a proper understanding of the problem trying to be solved.   I don't' doubt that what I've described above can happen in the future if someone puts their mind to it.  But I think it will require tools and resources that are not readily available to the average fitter/player.   Some high end research labs could start working on it now but it would still likely take years and years to figure out adequately to the point of being usable (assuming the cost could be made reasonable).

 

Until then, we're stuck with simplifications (e.g. SW and MOI) that may work fine for many assuming the limitations are properly understood.  Maybe others (like MBI) will come along as well and prove to be useful.  But they really wont be all that different from the previous methods.  They will always be vastly incomplete and have limitations that need to be understood.  And there will always be some people for which they will work better or worse than other methods.

 

I love research but I'm also a realist. 😉

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Exactice808]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Many OEM and head models have a 'standard' and a light weight version of the head.   Sometimes referred to as 'A' and 'B' weight heads.   Some they may even have 3 different weights.    But this has little to do with shaft weight.  I've said before but I think I need to say it again.  Shaft weight does not effect swing weight in irons as much as you seem to think.   It might a bit more when you dip down to the ultra-light 60 gm graphite iron shafts.   But the mid and heavier weight shafts will rarely cause much of a swing weight change.   The most I've seen is 3 points and that was only with the high balance point steelfiber i-110.   The 95 gm steelfibers actually swing weight 2 pts heavier than the 110 gm version and only 1 pt lighter than the 127 gm DG's.   

 

So when I see a someone report a much larger change going from x100's to 1150's, the problem is NOT the shaft change.   Something else changed in the build.  Or they really weren't that heavy with the previous shafts.  In your case there is just not enough information about the before and after builds to figure out what happened and why.

 

But back to the head weights.   The different head weights are for helping to manage swing weight for different build playing lengths.   The lightweight heads tend to be about 10 gm lighter than the standard heads and are almost exclusively used for over length builds to allow reasonable swing weights when the playing lengths get to +1" or more.   It's easy to add weight to adjust SW up but you need to start at a lighter base weight if you need to adjust the swing weight down.    So the only time it's usually a problem for standard length builds is if someone buys a second hand set that's over length to save some money and cuts them down (either with the original shafts or when reshafting).    Or maybe they bought an over length build without knowing it.  Or sometimes the factories just screw up and use the wrong heads for a build.  It's always important to check all the specs when you get a new (to you) set of clubs.

 

 

 

Don't over think fitting.   Optimizing isn't really the best way to think of it  (IMO).   I like to look at it this way.  Everyone has their own natural swing.  There is noting about the equipment that will make your swing better.  "There is no secret ingredient."  Fitting is really about minimizing how much the equipment gets in the way of letting you swing your natural swing.  All the different aspects of what we feel from the club can either be in sync with that natural swing or it can distract us from it.    The main difference between us and the pros is that they have a much better idea of what feels work for them and what feels don't work.    You don't need any special equipment or facilities to get that, you need time and experience.   A much more consistent swing can help as well.

 

So the best we can hope for is to take some time and find out what general combination of shaft weight, swing weight, and stiffness profile tends to work well most of the time.   But that's not the same as working well all the time.  Golf is not a game of perfect - and that includes perfection in equipment fitting.  Some range time with a roll of lead tape is usually the best way.   And there may not be one best value,  you may have to settle for narrowing it down to a particular range.

 

My Apologies Stuart!  I misstated greatly as you and noodler have clarified.  ITS not the Weight of the actual shaft but the balance point of the shaft that affected the disparity between my X100 and the 1150GH.

 

It seems that the 1150GH had a much different balance point that affected the SW so much causing the "extreme" change in SW (C7 at worst) 5 SW points,  generally that was 10grams to add, but to get the 4iron to D2/D3 I had to jam 16grams into the head/shaft.  

 

This is something to consider.  Now more so for my consideration as my discussion with the fitter, the idea was to find a lighter (setup) less demanding shaft at the time.  Of course they had their fitting cart and we swapped shafts in X head.  But that seems to be the error. It was not the AP2 head at the time.

 

Anycase! Thanks for the info about the heads weights. "learned something new!"  

 

As for optimization this got the wheels spinning.  I am going to ask a separate questions after this 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

For my limited knowledge but this sea opening up.  The road of efficiency/consistency is my curiosity.  

 

OK this thread is evolving quickly BUT still on the premise of the title.  

 

1) My clubs are what they are now,  We figured that jamming the split shot for the "Temp" and tinker purpose worked!  (AP2s) Not messing around with my actual gamers.

2) Outside of taking apart clubs I am where I am.

 

 

Ok moving on to the additional questions.

 

 

1) I get the idea of grabbing X club, grab some lead tape and go at it till you find consistency. Oddly I think I stumbled on this inadvertently.  Having the ES14 and a hitting setup at home, has got me trying things and experimenting to actually do this.  Having wonky clubs mixed up swing weights and all kinds of shaft combos (Btw, I have my wifes clubs C5's, that are short, and an old PW graphite C7 unclaimed from a golf tournament left in my trunk lol, that I was wacking around just to see what it does)

 

1a) For me it seems that right now D2/D3 is working, I wonder as I dont have clubs over this but I starting adding more weight just because and hit irons D4 or D6 etc. Just to see what the effects would be?

 

 

Driver Specific

2) Im looking at FACTORY Specs,  take TM for example,  why are the SW specs all over?  Driver D5/D6 for the Sim,  but the Driver sim max is D3?  My example for the sake of "efficiency/consistency"  I had a 915D3 that I played well but of course my driver sucks and worst part of my game.  Anyways.  the 915D3 is measure at D2

prior mention buddy got his full TM bag, so I bought his old TM M3 to "update" but I cant hit it for the life of me (shaft not the best for me)  Anyways.  I then measure the club its a D5 swing weight, 3 SW pts different.  I did some modifications and its at D2 and I will take it out for testing purpose on Thursday.

 

 

Questions: 

Why is the TM specific heads getting heavier D4,D5,D6 swing weights,  but the "forgiving" heads D2/D3 swing weight?  What is the theory behind this?

 

I suck so having too much variables or inconsistencies for me as a player just makes the game harder LOL.  For a person like me,  Why not D3 across the board and be done with it?

 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Exactice808 said:

My Apologies Stuart!  I misstated greatly as you and noodler have clarified.  ITS not the Weight of the actual shaft but the balance point of the shaft that affected the disparity between my X100 and the 1150GH.

 

It seems that the 1150GH had a much different balance point that affected the SW so much causing the "extreme" change in SW (C7 at worst) 5 SW points,  generally that was 10grams to add, but to get the 4iron to D2/D3 I had to jam 16grams into the head/shaft.  

 

This is something to consider.  Now more so for my consideration as my discussion with the fitter, the idea was to find a lighter (setup) less demanding shaft at the time.  Of course they had their fitting cart and we swapped shafts in X head.  But that seems to be the error. It was not the AP2 head at the time.

 

Anycase! Thanks for the info about the heads weights. "learned something new!"  

 

As for optimization this got the wheels spinning.  I am going to ask a separate questions after this 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  I'm saying no, it isn't the shaft balance point either.  Based on the experiences of numerous users of the 1150GH, the swing weight does not change that much compared to DG's if everything else about the build really was the same.  You need to look elsewhere for the reason the SW ended up so low.

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Exactice808]

Just now, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  I'm saying no, it isn't the shaft balance point either.  Based on the experiences of numerous users of the 1150GH, the swing weight does not change that much compared to DG's if everything else about the build really was the same.  You need to look elsewhere for the reason the SW ended up so low.

 

OH!  ok hmmm.... Well if you dont mind diving in this for the fun of it?

 

This is what I can tell you.

 

1) Factory AP2's X100 with the holographic stickers and all,  D2 swing weights

2) Wanted a lighter setup, did the fitting with the fitter. Settled on the 1150 GH

3) They came in, sho swapped the shafts and used the same grips from the X100

4) The Tip weights are still in the X100

 

 

Anymore details to help zero in why the 1150GH setup is so off?  (discussion its honestly irrelevant but I want to personally understand) 😃  Thanks!

[Pepperturbo]

If I didn't mention this earlier, consider weighing the heads for comparison.  Shaft weight maybe similar but combined with head weight and bend profile, and grip they may add up differently.  I know my 620MB heads are about 4grams heavier than 620CB. 

 

One other factor that many overlook, DG shafts are weight sorted, however, each shaft's weight may be different.  When I played X100 I was having problems with 7-9i.  We couldn't figure out why, till my guy weighed each shaft and we found "R" and "S" flex shafts with different weights yet labled "X".

Edited November 10, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[Exactice808]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

If I didn't mention this earlier, consider weighing the heads for comparison.  Shaft weight maybe similar but combined with head weight and bend profile, and grip they may add up differently.  I know my 620MB heads are about 4grams heavier than 620CB. 

 

One other factor that many overlook, DG shafts are weight sorted, however, each shaft's weight may be different.  When I played X100 I was having problems with 7-9i.  We couldn't figure out why, till my guy weighed each shaft and we found "R" and "S" flex shafts with different weights yet labled "X".

So to be fair  I was curious after Noodler and Stuart were talking about the actual shaft weights,

 

I did post prior in a prior the photos I took of the X100 raw shaft weights without grips only raw and with tip weights

 

PW- 121 w/tip weight 120 w/o

9i - 124 w,  123 w/o

8i - 124 w, 123 w/o

7i- 123 w, 123 w/o

6i - 124 w, 122 w/o

5i - 123 w, 122 w/o

4i- 125 w, 123 w/o

3i - 125 w, 123 w/o

 

 

From the trimming point of view without tip weights,  123- 3iron  vs 120 - Pw,  the trimming only differed 3grams?  Does that make sense. I thought the difference between the PW and 3 iron would be more pronounced?

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Exactice808

[Pepperturbo]

1 minute ago, Exactice808 said:

So to be fair  I was curious after Noodler and Stuart were talking about the actual shaft weights,

 

I did post prior in a prior the photos I took of the X100 raw shaft weights without grips only raw and with tip weights

 

PW- 121 w/tip weight 120 w/o

9i - 124 w,  123 w/o

8i - 124 w, 123 w/o

7i- 123 w, 123 w/o

6i - 124 w, 122 w/o

5i - 123 w, 122 w/o

4i- 125 w, 123 w/o

3i - 125 w, 123 w/o

 

 

From the trimming point of view without tip weights,  123- 3iron  vs 120 - Pw,  the trimming only differed 3grams?  Does that make sense. I thought the difference between the PW and 3 iron would be more pronounced?

 

To my way of thinking, weight sorting should be the same for all X-100 shafts in a set.  Same with S400 or S300.  I suppose reasoning would be tolerances.  Reason back then I left TT X100 and went to standard Rifle 6.5 then to PX 6.0  Project X wasn't owned by TT so tolerances and quality was better.  Not sure what TT has done to them since.   Got to go to DG Tour issue to get a standard.

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

OH!  ok hmmm.... Well if you dont mind diving in this for the fun of it?

 

This is what I can tell you.

 

1) Factory AP2's X100 with the holographic stickers and all,  D2 swing weights

2) Wanted a lighter setup, did the fitting with the fitter. Settled on the 1150 GH

3) They came in, sho swapped the shafts and used the same grips from the X100

4) The Tip weights are still in the X100

 

 

Anymore details to help zero in why the 1150GH setup is so off?  (discussion its honestly irrelevant but I want to personally understand) 😃  Thanks!

 

I asked this before but didn't get an answer.

 

Did you actually measure BOTH the playing lengths and the swing weight yourself for the set when you got it with the x100's?    Or are you assuming the specs based on the published stock values?

 

What method do you use to measure playing length when cutting the new shafts to length?

 

FYI, if you don't have and use a swing weight scale during the reshaft, the tip weights should generally stay with the heads they came in, not the shafts.  Pull them out and weigh them.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Exactice808]

7 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I asked this before but didn't get an answer.

 

Did you actually measure BOTH the playing lengths and the swing weight yourself for the set when you got it with the x100's?    Or are you assuming the specs based on the published stock values?

 

What method do you use to measure playing length when cutting the new shafts to length?

 

FYI, if you don't have and use a swing weight scale during the reshaft, the tip weights should generally stay with the heads they came in, not the shafts.  Pull them out and weigh them.

 

Hey Stuart,  Sorry I responded but likely in so many post it was confusing.

 

Let me respond directly.

 

1) Yes all measured lengths of the clubs as is, are same length (meaning I confirmed with the published values and the club builder was given instruction to install the new 1150GH to the same length as the X100).  Now I think I understand your question is how was the shaft measured and cut at the time of installation.  That I cannot answer as it was done at the shop (I did not do the work lol)

 

2) Assuming that there is some type of standard,  the shop again was the one that installed the new 1150GHs. Assuming this standard as if you dont cut the shafts in a consistent manner you can "hardstep or softsep" if you start cutting randomly right?  This would change CFM's as well as balance points.  I am assuming this is part of your "check" too see.  Again sorry I did not do the work the shop that I took it to did.

 

3) To measure the swing weight I used the same generic method I have been using, while it is known I do not have a swing weight machine. I am using the same method across the board so the consistency is constant? (without regards to accuracy, but measuring many clubs in this manner has been validated by multiple published values, to be accurate)  (Total weight,  Measure balance point of total club, Input data in online calculator and provides X swing weight)

 

4)  Yes I measured the AP2's with the X100 which across the board had D2/D3 SW at the time,  and I have measured the AP2's with the 1150GH in the same manner as above which ranged from C7-C9).  Finally adding all the splitshot lead I have measured the same as well, back to D2/D3.

 

5) I have pulled the tip weights as mentioned in the upper post,

 

 

Per the Screen shot

grams

PW - 0.844

9i - 0.875

8i - 0.410

7i - 1.671

6i - 0.827

5i - 0.372

4i - 1.31

3i - 2.102

 

The above tip weights were barely 2grams (Except the 3 iron which I am not using anyways)  nothing in the comparison to the 8-12 grams of actual split shot I added to the clubs in their current configuration.

 

thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart_G]

2 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

2) Assuming that there is some type of standard,  the shop again was the one that installed the new 1150GHs. Assuming this standard as if you dont cut the shafts in a consistent manner you can "hardstep or softsep" if you start cutting randomly right?  This would change CFM's as well as balance points.  I am assuming this is part of your "check" too see.  Again sorry I did not do the work the shop that I took it to did.

 

The problem is that there are multiple standards.   But it really only effects length and typically it's less than 1/2" difference between different methods at the extreme.   Soft/hard stepping is about what happens at the tip end of the shaft not the butt end so not really an issue with .355 tp tip shafts.   But since it can effect lengths it can also effect swing weight management - but not enough to even come close to explaining the significant SW differences you're seeing.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

3) To measure the swing weight I used the same generic method I have been using, while it is known I do not have a swing weight machine. I am using the same method across the board so the consistency is constant? (without regards to accuracy, but measuring many clubs in this manner has been validated by multiple published values, to be accurate)  (Total weight,  Measure balance point of total club, Input data in online calculator and provides X swing weight)

 

The consistency will depend on the details of the method used.   If it's from total weight and balance point, then yes it should be as consistent as your method for taking the input measurements.   Especially the balance point location.  Specifically 1) where you're measuring the location from and 2) how precise the measurement.  Even being off 1/8" can throw off the values.  1/4" can make them useless.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

The above tip weights were barely 2grams (Except the 3 iron which I am not using anyways)  nothing in the comparison to the 8-12 grams of actual split shot I added to the clubs in their current configuration.

 

thoughts?

 

Unfortunately no.  Nothing seems to make sense so likely something is being missed but impossible to say what.   At least not until we can get the raw head weights.  But as long as the clubs are working well now after the adjustment it doesn't make any sense to pull them just to get the weights.

[Exactice808]

41 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The problem is that there are multiple standards.   But it really only effects length and typically it's less than 1/2" difference between different methods at the extreme.   Soft/hard stepping is about what happens at the tip end of the shaft not the butt end so not really an issue with .355 tp tip shafts.   But since it can effect lengths it can also effect swing weight management - but not enough to even come close to explaining the significant SW differences you're seeing.

 

 

 

 

The consistency will depend on the details of the method used.   If it's from total weight and balance point, then yes it should be as consistent as your method for taking the input measurements.   Especially the balance point location.  Specifically 1) where you're measuring the location from and 2) how precise the measurement.  Even being off 1/8" can throw off the values.  1/4" can make them useless.

 

 

 

Unfortunately no.  Nothing seems to make sense so likely something is being missed but impossible to say what.   At least not until we can get the raw head weights.  But as long as the clubs are working well now after the adjustment it doesn't make any sense to pull them just to get the weights.

Thanks!  Thats what I thought, in regards to length.

 

Ffor specificity, of SW, while my methods might be crude I am trying to be somewhat precise. 

 

For the balance point I have a Triangle cut piece of wood. I balance the whole club on the tip of the triangle, mark it with a pen/pencil and then measure from butt to the mark with a  1/16th graduated tape measure, So I try to go as precise as 1/16th of an inch. As you are right, I had an 1/8th inch tape measure and the SW were slightly off by 1 to 2 points.  So I use the 1/16th tape to make it as accurate as possible.

 

I could pull the 3iron but it would be best to pull them off, At this point there is no point in pulling the heads to get the head weights as you mentioned.  But isnt it perplexing! LOL  I am stumpped to why its so far off? 

 

Wild no? HAHA!

 

 

[Exactice808]

Hey!  So If I might do a follow up/update!

 

its been about 2 weeks now and a handful of rounds.

 

First off,  I have not made any changes to the Sub70 irons only the Taylormade MC 4&5 irons.  While I hardly use these clubs.... these irons seemingly are performing at a much more consistent level than before. I use the 4 iron off the tee for short par4s and the consistency with it seems way higher.  This iron was a C7 swing weight prior to me stuffing 16grams of lead weight.

 

Here is the BIGGEST stunner.  I have updated my driver from a 915D3  to an M3.  I struggled with the M3 for a while (miss was crazy right/slice)... until this thread.  I weighted the club and it was a D5.   I pulled out one of the sliding weights (11grams) and added back 4grams of tungsten putty.  The Swing weight is now a D2.  3 rounds later,  been shooting some of my lower consistent scores in months.

 

I can HONESTLY and truthfully say this is the first time EVER I have had confidence off the tee with a driver,  I have multiple threads over the years on here sharing my driver woes.  But the last 2 rounds have been an eye opener.

 

So I hate to say this was a light bulb moment, or ahha moment,  But for your tech guys,  Do you put any stock in to swing weight as much as it seems to affect me? Or am I an anomaly that just happened to find success with messing around with swing weights.

 

 

I have been a proponent of "Shafts" matching the swing profile of the player.  Meaning, swing tempo for weight and flex for transition.  But never ever thought about overall swing weight.  To be honest  have gone to a couple of fittings as well and Never had anyone fit a swing weight to me either.  Yet the swing weight has been a factor recently in my scoring and consistency.  Is it of value or again I just got luck and honestly D5-D2 swing weight is really nothing and wont affect the majority of golfers? 

[Stuart_G]

@Exactice808  You're not an anomaly.  Sure there will always be exceptions but I believe it's much more common for weight - both shaft weight and head weight - to have a bigger influence on the swing than the shaft flex or stiffness.   It's just something most golfers don't get much actual exposure to so remain unaware.  Few "fitters" actually fit for swing weight even if they do try and fit for shaft weight.  A bigger problem even here is that there are so many that don't really understand how to properly fit for head weigh.  They don't really understand the swing weight concept and miss-use the swing weight scale and get poor results because of it, causing them to dismiss the importance of it.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Exactice808]

On 11/20/2020 at 11:40 PM, Stuart_G said:

@Exactice808  You're not an anomaly.  Sure there will always be exceptions but I believe it's much more common for weight - both shaft weight and head weight - to have a bigger influence on the swing than the shaft flex or stiffness.   It's just something most golfers don't get much actual exposure to so remain unaware.  Few "fitters" actually fit for swing weight even if they do try and fit for shaft weight.  A bigger problem even here is that there are so many that don't really understand how to properly fit for head weigh.  They don't really understand the swing weight concept and miss-use the swing weight scale and get poor results because of it, causing them to dismiss the importance of it.

Interesting!  I took the club on a very short but narrow course.  used the Driver 3 times yesterday.  It was crazy windy though so the anxiety was high, yet the driver performed exactly how I imagined it. I honestly can say its NEVER happened that way before ever.  So weird.

 

Anyways.  I feel like I "miss using" or misunderstanding.  Could you do me a favor and explain potentially on how people misunderstand the concept?

 

 

What I mean is, you can see how "ghetto" I have done my measurements and added or took out weight.  This seems too simple as a matter of measuring. Adding or subtracting weight and then it changes the balance of the club seems like like a simple thing yet worked?

 

Did I actually do it right or am I in some kind of honeymoon stage and completely fall into the "misunderstood" concept? 

[Stuart_G]

6 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Anyways.  I feel like I "miss using" or misunderstanding.  Could you do me a favor and explain potentially on how people misunderstand the concept?

 

If I had noticed any mis-use by you, I would have mentioned it.

 

The ways in which people mis-use the swing weight concept are numerous - but it's not about getting the measurement, it's about using the results of the measurement.   The biggest ones that come to mind:

 

1) thinking that the swing weight value is an absolute representation of the feel.   e.g.  just because D2 worked well in one club that all other clubs should be the same value (regardless of what else may have changed).

• Shaft weight (total static weight) changes can influence what SW value will be a good fit. 
• Length changes can influence what swing weight value will be a good fit as well.

2) That the swing weight scale can be used to adjust for grip or butt weight changes.

3) Stock swing weights are the best swing weight for everyone.

[Exactice808]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

If I had noticed any mis-use by you, I would have mentioned it.

 

The ways in which people mis-use the swing weight concept are numerous - but it's not about getting the measurement, it's about using the results of the measurement.   The biggest ones that come to mind:

 

1) thinking that the swing weight value is an absolute representation of the feel.   e.g.  just because D2 worked well in one club that all other clubs should be the same value (regardless of what else may have changed).

• Shaft weight (total static weight) changes can influence what SW value will be a good fit. 
• Length changes can influence what swing weight value will be a good fit as well.

2) That the swing weight scale can be used to adjust for grip or butt weight changes.

3) Stock swing weights are the best swing weight for everyone.

 

 

Thanks! I appreciate it! 

 

Sorry I have 1 more questions that I might have missed the answer.

 

your 3rd note is my question

 

"Stock Swing weights are best for everyone"

 

Wedges seem to be a little heavier (D4-D6) I have seen, I think I assume is most people dont swing full so more swing weight is for feel of the head.

 

Most Irons are D2-D3( This seems to work well for me)

 

 

Yet drivers seem to be all over the creation,

 

Cobra has a selection D1-D4 (I assume you pick,  But D1 to D4 can make a huge difference?)

Ping Forgiving heads are D3, but They LST is D4

Taylormade Sim Max is D3 but their Regular sim is D5

 

Why do most forgiving Driver heads seem to have a lighter swing weight like D1-D3,  but the tour models have a heavier swing weight like D4-D6?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Wedges seem to be a little heavier (D4-D6) I have seen, I think I assume is most people dont swing full so more swing weight is for feel of the head.

 

I think it's more likely a side effect of the nature of swing weight matching.   A SW matched set actually increases in MOI as the irons get longer.   So when someone find a goof fit for SW in the mid irons, it means that the wedges need to be a bit heavier to match the MOI feel of the mid iron. 

 

 

Quote

Why do most forgiving Driver heads seem to have a lighter swing weight like D1-D3,  but the tour models have a heavier swing weight like D4-D6?

 

Can't say I've noticed any correlation like that but I wouldn't read too much into it.   Stock swing weights in drivers tend to be more a consequence of compromise than a high priority target.   How much discretionary weight was needed to achieve the target head design characteristics (MOI and c.g. location),  how much can they push the playing length for more distance, how high a balance point shaft they can find for the stock shaft, etc... 

 

Tour models do frequently have hot melt added for the pros.   Stronger players with much better and more efficient swing mechanics do tend to tolerate heavier swing weights much better than the average golfer.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Sean2]

My irons/wedges are +2-inches. Even with light weight graphite shafts the SW is E3. Nothing I can really do about it. 

[Stuart_G]

57 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

My irons/wedges are +2-inches. Even with light weight graphite shafts the SW is E3. Nothing I can really do about it. 

 

Many companies offer lightweight heads for over-length builds.   Typically about 10 gm lighter than 'standard' heads.   That would generally result in a SW around D7-9 for +2" playing lengths.   

 

The steelfiber i110's are pretty butt heavy and could potentially drop it down another 2-4 pts or so depending on what shaft you're using now.

 

One more thing that would help in the long irons is to use smaller length increments.  e.g. 3/8" instead of 1/2" between clubs.    Just because you need the longer lengths in the short end of the set doesn't mean you need the full +2" in the longer end of the set.

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Sean2]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Many companies offer lightweight heads for over-length builds.   Typically about 10 gm lighter than 'standard' heads.   That would generally result in a SW around D7-9 for +2" playing lengths.   

 

The steelfiber i110's are pretty butt heavy and could potentially drop it down another 2-4 pts or so depending on what shaft you're using now.

 

One more thing that would help in the long irons is to use smaller length increments.  e.g. 3/8" instead of 1/2" between clubs.    Just because you need the longer lengths in the short end of the set doesn't mean you need the full +2" in the longer end of the set.

 

Good thoughts, thank you. 🙂

[Exactice808]

7 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I think it's more likely a side effect of the nature of swing weight matching.   A SW matched set actually increases in MOI as the irons get longer.   So when someone find a goof fit for SW in the mid irons, it means that the wedges need to be a bit heavier to match the MOI feel of the mid iron. 

 

 

 

Can't say I've noticed any correlation like that but I wouldn't read too much into it.   Stock swing weights in drivers tend to be more a consequence of compromise than a high priority target.   How much discretionary weight was needed to achieve the target head design characteristics (MOI and c.g. location),  how much can they push the playing length for more distance, how high a balance point shaft they can find for the stock shaft, etc... 

 

Tour models do frequently have hot melt added for the pros.   Stronger players with much better and more efficient swing mechanics do tend to tolerate heavier swing weights much better than the average golfer.

Interesting!  I am so sorry if I keep asking question but I am very interested in just learning more.

 

 

side question.  MOI based on club design has X amount.  Generically how much MOI is affected based on SW?  As an example,  a Blade is 0%,  a GI 50% and an SGI is 100% (generically)  If you messed with SW to affect MOI,  would you say that its 5% of the effect of MOI? 10%, 50%? etc? I hope you understand what I mean.  What I am trying to imply is the effects of SW worth the search for more MOI?

 

 

 

As for driver gotcha.  It just seems that this M3 (D5) head would go right all the time for me.  I pulled one weight out (C9)  and all of a sudden it was a hook machine.  I added in the 5 grams of putty back to get it to D2 and now I am hitting it very well as I mentioned.

 

I have been reading about total head weight,  hammer effect and now trying to understand the effects of MOI.  Since pulled th 11gram weight but put back 5 its a net loss of grams total weight.  The on going conversation is, did I reduce the "club" efficiency, more than gaining my swing efficiency.  Meaning would the trade of be better to fix my swing to work with the stock D5 setup or was the move to D2 worth matching my swing better.  (rhetorical at this point)

 

 

Thanks as always for this conversation!! 

[Exactice808]

55 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

Good thoughts, thank you. 🙂

Hey Sean!  Hope you are doing well!

 

Hey so questions since this topic intrigues me.  I am assuming you had your time and years with "stock" length D2 clubs.  Whe you went to +2" and they are at E2 swing weight.  What was the effects of it?  Or is E2 a good match for you? Did you have to learn to hit it?

 

Is the +2" with the E2 swing weight and the sacrifice to play standard length at D2 better?

 

 

Also since Stuart mentioned this and learning that Manufactures make different head weights.  Could you not have ordered a set of lighter head weights to get the +2" back down to D2?

 

What was the sacrifice you were willing to take?