I’ve been out of the driver game for a while. Have we converged to a “can’t go wrong. Pick the one that looks best” yet?

[TRoc9892]

I’m using you, golfwrx, sorry. So many drivers, incremental updates, year after year. My old Nike has to be obsolete by now. Have drivers converged? Can I just pick the one that looks/sounds nice to me, tune it, and call it a day? Virtually no differences company to company? 

[third-times-a-charm]

Pretty much. Sounds/feel matters most - then you can dial in numbers with shafts/sw/Length/adapter settings.

 

In some rare cases some heads may just be completely off for some players, but that leads back to feel.

[TRoc9892]

3 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Pretty much. Sounds/feel matters most - then you can dial in numbers with shafts/sw/Length/adapter settings.

 

In some rare cases some heads may just be completely off for some players, but that leads back to feel.

I’ve got the shaft I like, know what length/weight works. Just need to spend some time looking for a head update. 

[cgasucks]

Driver's has been maxed out since the 2000s when the driver sizes and faces were at its legal USGA and R&A max.  Because competition is so tough, all the OEMs drivers are equally long.  

 

You could squeeze out a few more yards by doing a fitting and practicing and lessons for you to hit it solidly more.

 

It is just a matter of looks and feel for you now these days in choosing a driver.

[TRoc9892]

6 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

Driver's has been maxed out since the 2000s when the driver sizes and faces were at its legal USGA and R&A max.  Because competition is so tough, all the OEMs drivers are equally long.  

 

You could squeeze out a few more yards by doing a fitting and practicing and lessons for you to hit it solidly more.

 

It is just a matter of looks and feel for you now these days in choosing a driver.

Still using that 905R? 😁 
That thing was solid. I didn’t like another Titleist driver as much until the 910. I’ve heard good things about the newest Titleists, but I’ve also heard good things about every new driver. 

[AB515]

11 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

Driver's has been maxed out since the 2000s when the driver sizes and faces were at its legal USGA and R&A max.  Because competition is so tough, all the OEMs drivers are equally long.  

 

You could squeeze out a few more yards by doing a fitting and practicing and lessons for you to hit it solidly more.

 

It is just a matter of looks and feel for you now these days in choosing a driver.

This isn’t really accurate. While yes, drivers have been maxed out in terms of COR and size, there are other factors in play leading to better performance since the 2000’s. Material developments have significantly helped with aerodynamics and off center consistency. While yes, a driver from 2005 might be able to hit it as far as a driver from 2021 if perfectly centered, even the pros aren’t centering their driver every hit. 
 

And while yes, looks and feel are two of the main factors, you also need to factor in CG location and general driver weighting when choosing a driver. There are significant differences between driver heads that can cause differing results even when using the same shafts.

Edited April 29, 2021 by AB515

[Togatown22]

I agree with above poster - newer drivers are "faster" across the face than those of 12+ years ago.  That's where most of the improvements are happening, outside of the sweet spot.  Also, having the ability to dial in the launch and spin characteristics that can help folks get the most out of a particular head/shaft combo has changed things substantially.  

[TRoc9892]

13 minutes ago, AB515 said:

This isn’t really accurate. While yes, drivers have been maxed out in terms of COR and size, there are other factors in play leading to better performance since the 2000’s. Material developments have significantly helped with aerodynamics and off center consistency. While yes, a driver from 2005 might be able to hit it as far as a driver from 2021 if perfectly centered, even the pros aren’t centering their driver every hit. 
 

And while yes, looks and feel are two of the main factors, you also need to factor in CG location and general driver weighting when choosing a driver. There are significant differences between driver heads that can cause differing results even when using the same shafts.

How many times can the CG be moved around and make it a new releases? I am most certainly not considering getting a driver from 2005. But I also wouldn’t take for granted using the word significant when describing these differences. Are they significant? Are they just as significant company to company as they were 3 years ago? They may be, yes. I really just have no idea. 
 

 

Throwing this in as en edit. I understand “significant” may be personal and tough to quantify. But it always has been. Even when drivers were wildly different. That’s not really within the scope of the superficial and surface level question I’m asking. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by TRoc9892

[mogc60]

As mentioned early they keep moving it to enlarge the hot spot and in my opinion have done so. Heel strikes are better than ever and basically the whole toe side and anything above center you don’t lose hardly any distance and gain on most drivers. Now does it drastically improve year to year...NO. However, the driver today is way better than 10 years ago. Don’t get me wrong I still fondly look at my older drivers that I had great success with, but they can’t hang with my new Srixon ZX5. It’s better in every category. 

[lvgolfer962]

38 minutes ago, TRoc9892 said:

Still using that 905R? 😁 
That thing was solid. I didn’t like another Titleist driver as much until the 910. I’ve heard good things about the newest Titleists, but I’ve also heard good things about every new driver. 

Just went from a 905t to a ts4 in the last year. Off center strikes are a touch better, center strikes are identical for me. 
 

I’m still getting used the the adjustable hosel.  It has its pros and cons 

[cgasucks]

37 minutes ago, AB515 said:

This isn’t really accurate. While yes, drivers have been maxed out in terms of COR and size, there are other factors in play leading to better performance since the 2000’s. Material developments have significantly helped with aerodynamics and off center consistency. While yes, a driver from 2005 might be able to hit it as far as a driver from 2021 if perfectly centered, even the pros aren’t centering their driver every hit. 
 

And while yes, looks and feel are two of the main factors, you also need to factor in CG location and general driver weighting when choosing a driver. There are significant differences between driver heads that can cause differing results even when using the same shafts.

 

True.  But for a skilled player that hits it off the screws 9 times out of 10 a driver is a driver to him/her and usually the one that he/she likes based on feel and ballflight and if it looks good on Trackman.  But to a hacker who hits it all over the place, then a more modern driver will do the trick.  I would personally recommend the Ping G400 Max myself to a high handicapper.

[cgasucks]

44 minutes ago, TRoc9892 said:

Still using that 905R? 😁 
That thing was solid. I didn’t like another Titleist driver as much until the 910. I’ve heard good things about the newest Titleists, but I’ve also heard good things about every new driver. 

 

Yep.  For some reason I just hit it most consistently off the sweet spot and love the feel and sound on solid hits.  That says a lot since I also have a 510 TP, a 975D, and a 983K  and have more recent drivers in my stash (with a TM R1 being the newest).

[TRoc9892]

16 minutes ago, mogc60 said:

Heel strikes are better than ever 

😎 Music to me ears. I’ve been known to be a little healy every now and then. 

[mogc60]

10 minutes ago, TRoc9892 said:

😎 Music to me ears. I’ve been known to be a little healy every now and then. 

Dont we all! Honestly huge improvement in the heel areas on new drivers 

[JFM628]

So many things to choose from.  I will tell anyone who listens if you don't know what you want and you want a driver that fits a broad range of golfers, Ping 400 Max.  But it used and save a couple hundred $.

[mokedaddy]

It’s true most manufacturers offer something for just about every golfer but not all drivers within a lineup will fit everyone best.  That’s why most companies make two or three or four different models.

[longballjs]

right shaft might not work with every head.  I do not believe the TSi3 is leaps and bounds better than the M5 i was playing the last two seasons, but i believe my combo of head and shaft is better for me and therefore am hitting it much better

[kintap]

25 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

 

True.  But for a skilled player that hits it off the screws 9 times out of 10 a driver is a driver to him/her and usually the one that he/she likes based on feel and ballflight and if it looks good on Trackman.  But to a hacker who hits it all over the place, then a more modern driver will do the trick.  I would personally recommend the Ping G400 Max myself to a high handicapper.

 

Skilled is an understatement.  I'd call the player who hits it on the screws 9 out of 10 times every single round an elite ball striker.  I've been dangerously close to scratch at my lowest and I've played well enough on my good days to qualify for state level am tournaments.  When the swing is on I can middle it all day, but on the days that I don't have it I'll take all the help I can get.  The difference between my Epic Max and my old F9 is night and day on toe strikes, which is my miss.  This can save me multiple strokes per round when I'm struggling off of the tee and trying to post a score with my short game.  A nasty toe hook into the junk is a round killer and I don't hit those anymore.

 

Additionally, just having the freedom to swing knowing that if I hit it a bit toe side it won't be a disaster REALLY frees up my mind and I am driving the ball better than ever just due to this confidence.

[Booker]

Newer drivers these days are very light to accommodate the length of shaft  they come with. 

Find one that allows you to make solid contact most times and there won't be much difference. 

Imo the new standard shaft length is too long for most amateurs. 

You can't go wrong with anything from the top 5 manufacturers over the past 5years. I will say Ping is the most forgiving drivers that I've 

Tried in the last 7-8 years.  The 400 lineup are all very friendly. 

 

[MFSOT]

I don’t agree with those that are saying it’s just close your eyes and choose. There are drivers set up for draws, fades, lower COG, higher, some have smaller tour heads, some have larger normal human heads, some are low spin, some have crazy MOI. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than myself can really get into the details, but I think it’s way off to say they’re all point and click.

[kintap]

1 minute ago, MFSOT said:

I don’t agree with those that are saying it’s just close your eyes and choose. There are drivers set up for draws, fades, lower COG, higher, some have smaller tour heads, some have larger normal human heads, some are low spin, some have crazy MOI. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than myself can really get into the details, but I think it’s way off to say they’re all point and click.

I agree.  The driver category is more important than the driver brand though.  If you hit G425 Max well, you should be able to get similar numbers out of Sim2 Max, Epic Max, Radspeed XB etc... given the right shaft.  Same is true for G425 LST, Sim2, Epic Max LS and Radspeed.  Obviously there are outliers, but in general it is more about the spin and forgiveness profile than the brand.  There is an extra bonus for the Ping and Callaway drivers because they have a moveable weight track to help with shot shape and toe/heel strikes, but not everyone needs that.

[TRoc9892]

5 minutes ago, MFSOT said:

I don’t agree with those that are saying it’s just close your eyes and choose. There are drivers set up for draws, fades, lower COG, higher, some have smaller tour heads, some have larger normal human heads, some are low spin, some have crazy MOI. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than myself can really get into the details, but I think it’s way off to say they’re all point and click.

I’m certainly not credentialed enough to determine, but how far off is it? There have always been drivers geared towards larger and more forgiving, vs smaller and lower spin. Even that’s an oversimplification.

 

You’ve listed a lot of characteristics  that differ driver to driver but don’t we have a fair amount of customization within one head and adapter? And don’t most drivers released in a year also have that same or near level configurability?

 

How much does MOI vary? Spin rates from one configurable head to another configurable head?

[EDT501]

There are definitely a ton of really, really good options out there and very few, if any, bad ones. Yes distance has been maxed out for more than a decade, but the new stuff is unquestionably higher-performance. I've got pretty good mechanics and rarely miss the center of the face, but changing to a TS3 from a 910D3 last year was a significant improvement. I've always been a pretty good driver of the ball, but I definitely can get away with more now that I used to. I find myself swinging much more freely on the tee and able to play a little more aggressively because I know that the misses are less penal. Does that mean I can't still play good golf with my 910? Of course not. But there have definitely been improvements across the board. 

 

I do think that getting fit or at least seeing numbers before buying is still important. I find that heads today spin less and launch higher than they did in 2010 and in some cases are too low spin for a lot of players (looking at you SIM). However, within each category of head I think its fine to let visual and feel preferences guide you. I would also be open to going with a different shaft/shaft weight. I found that I could use something lighter with a little smoother profile than I used to use because the head itself was lower spin. Even though I still like my old 910 setup, my new TS setup is very different but I like it equally.

[TRoc9892]

37 minutes ago, longballjs said:

right shaft might not work with every head.  I do not believe the TSi3 is leaps and bounds better than the M5 i was playing the last two seasons, but i believe my combo of head and shaft is better for me and therefore am hitting it much better

Doesn’t need to be leaps and bounds better. But if you’re saying the head is any amount better, than that’s significant. If you’re saying the heads are equal and the addition of a shaft makes one combo better and the other worse, well then, there was a significant difference in the first place and they were not equal.  

[SwingMan]

What?

 

One driver above them all?

 

No. Gotta get fit.

[TRoc9892]

3 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

There are definitely a ton of really, really good options out there and very few, if any, bad ones. Yes distance has been maxed out for more than a decade, but the new stuff is unquestionably higher-performance. I've got pretty good mechanics and rarely miss the center of the face, but changing to a TS3 from a 910D3 last year was a significant improvement. I've always been a pretty good driver of the ball, but I definitely can get away with more now that I used to. I find myself swinging much more freely on the tee and able to play a little more aggressively because I know that the misses are less penal. Does that mean I can't still play good golf with my 910? Of course not. But there have definitely been improvements across the board. 

 

I do think that getting fit or at least seeing numbers before buying is still important. I find that heads today spin less and launch higher than they did in 2010 and in some cases are too low spin for a lot of players (looking at you SIM). However, within each category of head I think its fine to let visual and feel preferences guide you. I would also be open to going with a different shaft/shaft weight. I found that I could use something lighter with a little smoother profile than I used to use because the head itself was lower spin. Even though I still like my old 910 setup, my new TS setup is very different but I like it equally.

I appreciate the write-up but I think I need to add a point of clarification. I’m not comparing drivers today vs drivers from 2010. But the differences between all drivers from 2010 vs the differences between all drivers from 2020. Or 2019. Are we converging?

[TRoc9892]

3 minutes ago, SwingMan said:

What?

 

One driver above them all?

 

No. Gotta get fit.

Thank you, SwingMan.

 

Not one above all.

 

But none above any other. 

[MFSOT]

20 minutes ago, TRoc9892 said:

I’m certainly not credentialed enough to determine, but how far off is it? There have always been drivers geared towards larger and more forgiving, vs smaller and lower spin. Even that’s an oversimplification.

 

You’ve listed a lot of characteristics  that differ driver to driver but don’t we have a fair amount of customization within one head and adapter? And don’t most drivers released in a year also have that same or near level configurability?

 

How much does MOI vary? Spin rates from one configurable head to another configurable head?

I think @kintap said it well as well as @EDT501, you can probably go manufacturer to manufacturer in category (Low Sping, Max, etc..) based on looks, sound, etc.. but you need to narrow down that category. To do that you really should get fitted, and I’m not sure that the shaft you like will work well with the new heads, hard to know without knowing the shaft, and I’m really not the guy to answer that.

 

What I can say is I went from huge slices to a nice draw by going from a Callaway Rogue S Flex Aldila 50 to a Callaway Epic Max LS with a Mitsubishi Chem MMT 60 S, was it the shaft or the head? Hard to say, but I went through a fitting and was slicing everything in the fitting until we got to the combo I just mentioned. So ultimately I think a fitting is the answer personally.  

 

Hope this helps

[EDT501]

Just now, TRoc9892 said:

I appreciate the write-up but I think I need to add a point of clarification. I’m not comparing drivers today vs drivers from 2010. But the differences between all drivers from 2010 vs the differences between all drivers from 2020. Or 2019. Are we converging?

I think we are converging. There is definitely a deeper list of good heads now than there were 10 years ago. I feel like back then there were always a one or two standouts each year that everyone would play/fit into. Having hit most of the modern stuff, I'm confident that if I had the time/resources to tweak I could build a driver from every major brand that would work equally well. In contrast in 2010 when I previously got fit the 910D3 was one of two options that provided optimum results.

[TRoc9892]

5 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

I think we are converging. There is definitely a deeper list of good heads now than there were 10 years ago. I feel like back then there were always a one or two standouts each year that everyone would play/fit into. Having hit most of the modern stuff, I'm confident that if I had the time/resources to tweak I could build a driver from every major brand that would work equally well. In contrast in 2010 when I previously got fit the 910D3 was one of two options that provided optimum results.

I haven’t hit many new clubs yet but I have a feeling I’ll agree with you. I think a more interesting question is when will we know when we’ve converged? Drivers will always look different with new gimmicks but what does convergence look like from a realistic functional perspective?

 

Interestingly enough, I remember 2010 to be a great year in terms of drivers. That was actually the first year where I wasn’t sure I could go wrong with the major brands. There were a couple stragglers, for sure. When/If we can prove and map this convergence, assuming it hasn’t already happened, it would be interesting to know how closely 2010 maps to 2020 along the entire scale.