Lost ball question.

[deadsolid...shank]

This came up in league play tonight. No involvement for me, but I told the guy who runs the league I would post and ask the experts. 
 

This league is a kind of hybrid of matchplayand Stableford, and everyone also keeps their total strokes. I don’t know if the stroke portion factors into the scoring or if it’s just for handicap purposes. 
 

Player tees off on medium length par four. Push’s the shot to the right. Fairly long shot and likely has,the view of the landing g area at least partially obscured by trees. Both teams search for the ball with no luck locating it. They (all four) agree where the ball “should” be, and agree to a free drop for the player. He hits it close and makes birdie. The explanation from the other team was that once playing in a senior qualifier all the players saw a ball land in a water soaked fairway but never could locate it. A rules official allowed a free drop because all the players saw it land there, and conditions were condusive to a ball going into,

the ground (not the case here). 
 

What would the correct ruling be, and also, if you were running a friendly, but competitive league with a bit of money involved, how would you proceed. As a side note, the player with the lost ball, his team lost the match. 
 

Thanks for the help. 

[Celeras]

It sounds like they are going with the exception in rule 18.2b:

 

 

Quote

 

If a ball is lost or out of bounds, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief by adding one penalty stroke and playing the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6).

Exception – Player May Substitute Another Ball Under Other Rule When It Is Known or Virtually Certain What Happened to Ball: Instead of taking stroke-and-distance relief, the player may substitute another ball as allowed under a Rule that applies when his or her ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball:

• Came to rest on the course and was moved by an outside influence (see Rule 9.6) or played as a wrong ball by another player (see Rule 6.3c(2)),

• Came to rest on the course in or on a movable obstruction (see Rule 15.2b) or an abnormal course condition (see Rule 16.1e),

• Is in a penalty area (see Rule 17.1c), or

• Was deliberately deflected or stopped by any person (see Rule 11.2c).

 

 

A water soaked fairway could be an abnormal course condition which is, I think, where the original ruling would come from. I am not sure there is a scenario where this can be applied to the tree line unless you are talking about an outside influence, which is doesn't sound like they are? I'd say they extrapolated the original ruling incorrectly.

 

[edit] As for what I'd do? I don't know, if it's match play and the opponents agreed to it probably nothing considering the ruling didn't effect the outcome of the match.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Celeras

[Mudguard]

Sounds like a lost ball to me. Back to the tee or drop on the fairway if the new rule is in place. 

[Sawgrass]

Stableford is a Stroke Play format.  A Match is of course Match Play. Combining the two formats can create a real mess. Committee Procedures section 6C(12) covers the (IMO awful) ways of dealing with this: 

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3

[Newby]

3 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Player tees off on medium length par four. Push’s the shot to the right. Fairly long shot and likely has,the view of the landing g area at least partially obscured by trees. Both teams search for the ball with no luck locating it. They (all four) agree where the ball “should” be, and agree to a free drop for the player. He hits it close and makes birdie.

Unless the player was virtually certain that someone(thing) had removed the ball it was a lost ball. The player should replay from the tee with a 1 stoke penalty (ie Stroke & Distance). As he seemingly didn't he played from a wrong place and is therefore DQd from the hole.

[deadsolid...shank]

Thanks everyone. Pretty much in line with what we were thinking. Didn’t think there was any way a ball could be substituted. The good thing is that they did lose  the match. 
 

Sawgrass, I’m not sure exactly how it works, but I don’t think they play cumulative points in the Stableford. Maybe the points determine the outcome of the match. Instead of strokes?  Just guessing there, but I know looking at the cards as the guys turn them in (I work the shop that night) I only see stroke totals, but not point totals. 
 

Another question. By them agreeing to proceed this way, is that waiving a rule? Bringing in that issue?

[davep043]

1 hour ago, deadsolid...shank said:

By them agreeing to proceed this way, is that waiving a rule?

If they're not aware that they're breaking a rule, they're not agreeing to disregard the rule.  The way you wrote it the first time, they thought they were following an acceptable procedure, so Rule 1.3b(1) doesn't apply.

[nsxguy]

17 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

This came up in league play tonight. No involvement for me, but I told the guy who runs the league I would post and ask the experts. 
 

This league is a kind of hybrid of matchplayand Stableford, and everyone also keeps their total strokes. I don’t know if the stroke portion factors into the scoring or if it’s just for handicap purposes. 
 

Player tees off on medium length par four. Push’s the shot to the right. Fairly long shot and likely has,the view of the landing g area at least partially obscured by trees. Both teams search for the ball with no luck locating it. They (all four) agree where the ball “should” be, and agree to a free drop for the player. He hits it close and makes birdie. The explanation from the other team was that once playing in a senior qualifier all the players saw a ball land in a water soaked fairway but never could locate it. A rules official allowed a free drop because all the players saw it land there, and conditions were condusive to a ball going into,

the ground (not the case here). 
 

What would the correct ruling be, and also, if you were running a friendly, but competitive league with a bit of money involved, how would you proceed. As a side note, the player with the lost ball, his team lost the match. 
 

Thanks for the help. 

 

8 hours ago, davep043 said:

If they're not aware that they're breaking a rule, they're not agreeing to disregard the rule.  The way you wrote it the first time, they thought they were following an acceptable procedure, so Rule 1.3b(1) doesn't apply.

 

The way I read the OP, they knew. And disregarded the rule.

 

If it was just the 4 of them, who cares what they do ?

 

And it sounds like an informal league but even still, what about the other groups in the league ?

 

They would (presumably) play by the rules and therefore, in the same circumstance, would take a lost ball penalty - and certainly be at a competitive disadvantage. This guy made birdie when he likely would've made bogie,,,,,, or worse.

 

My "vote" is with Mudguard. Lost ball.

 

As for the DQ of all of them for agreeing to disregard the rules, again, an informal league so if I was the Commish I'd DQ the guy who made birdie but allow (and admonish) the others.

[Augster]

If E-5 is in effect, just add 2 to his total

on the hole. 

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

If E-5 is in effect, just add 2 to his total

on the hole. 

And if he didn't drop within the required relief area?

[Augster]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

And if he didn't drop within the required relief area?

They said he dropped where he thought it was lost. Where it “should” have been found. That’s the definition of the relief area. 
 

Where all this “must drop in the fairway” stuff came from is perplexing. 

[nsxguy]

On 5/19/2021 at 11:49 PM, Celeras said:

It sounds like they are going with the exception in rule 18.2b:

 

 

 

A water soaked fairway could be an abnormal course condition which is, I think, where the original ruling would come from. I am not sure there is a scenario where this can be applied to the tree line unless you are talking about an outside influence, which is doesn't sound like they are? I'd say they extrapolated the original ruling incorrectly.

 

[edit] As for what I'd do? I don't know, if it's match play and the opponents agreed to it probably nothing considering the ruling didn't effect the outcome of the match.

 

 

I don't see where the OP's account include any of the 4 exceptions you listed.

[Celeras]

14 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't see where the OP's account include any of the 4 exceptions you listed.

"The explanation from the other team was that once playing in a senior qualifier all the players saw a ball land in a water soaked fairway but never could locate it. A rules official allowed a free drop because all the players saw it land there"

 

It seems like you didn't read what I wrote. I said they were extrapolating from the quoted ruling (which is an abnormal course condition) and did so incorrectly.

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, Celeras said:

"The explanation from the other team was that once playing in a senior qualifier all the players saw a ball land in a water soaked fairway but never could locate it. A rules official allowed a free drop because all the players saw it land there"

 

It seems like you didn't read what I wrote. I said they were extrapolating from the quoted ruling (which is an abnormal course condition) and did so incorrectly.

 

You are correct. They extrapolated incorrectly.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

You are correct. They extrapolated incorrectly.

I agree with this.  They didn't know what to do, in essence they didn't know what the Rules required.  They didn't choose to ignore a Rule, they proceeded based on an (erroneous) understanding of a previous ruling, believing they were doing the right thing.  They didn't knowingly agree to play outside of the Rules.  At least that's what I read in the OP.

[deadsolid...shank]

16 hours ago, davep043 said:

I agree with this.  They didn't know what to do, in essence they didn't know what the Rules required.  They didn't choose to ignore a Rule, they proceeded based on an (erroneous) understanding of a previous ruling, believing they were doing the right thing.  They didn't knowingly agree to play outside of the Rules.  At least that's what I read in the OP.

I think that sums it up well. In fact it was the player whose ball was lost who came into the shop after the round and explained what happened. I think he was pretty sure it should have been a lost ball, but the guy on the other team thought he could proceed that way because of his past experience.  Not realizing (or forgetting) the extenuating circumstances when that happened.