Round suspended on hole 14 after tee shot: what score to post?

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Celeras said:

 

Well that first part is semantics if I ever heard it haha. Your take seems to be that I am incorrectly lowering my handicap by posting it as an 18, but "lowering it less" (raising the differential) by using double instead of bogey? Agree to disagree I guess 🙂

 

But yeah I think it would be a toss up regarding #14. I could make bogey... but "most likely" with the uphill chip? I honestly like double playing the odds. Garmin doesn't have a stat to tell me about my abilities to make doubles, but here it was it says about my up and downs.

Did I read something incorrectly? This is a par 3, correct? And you were green side with your tee shot? So you have 32% chance of an up and down(or a bit less than that it says) for par? So you have a at worst let’s call it 64% chance of making bogey or better?  But you call it a double which means you not only didn’t make par you either three putt or miss the green with a short pitch? 
 

Sorry, seems odd use of the app.

56 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Might be useful to run this by your state golf association's handicap/GHIN person. If you do, let us know what they said. 🙂

ok

[Augster]

I’ll reiterate, this is not how sandbaggers sandbag. Stop it. 
 

Sandbaggers shoot good scores and post bogus scores. It’s that simple. They don’t “legally sandbag” or any of that silliness. Are they really going to waste their time out on the course trying to shoot bad scores to post? Absolutely not. They play their normal

game then post a higher score. They are cheaters. 

 

[Celeras]

21 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Did I read something incorrectly? This is a par 3, correct? And you were green side with your tee shot? So you have 32% chance of an up and down(or a bit less than that it says) for par? So you have a at worst let’s call it 64% chance of making bogey or better?  But you call it a double which means you not only didn’t make par you either three putt or miss the green with a short pitch? 
 

Sorry, seems odd use of the app.

 

 

Maybe? My odds of missing the green (24%) are higher than my odds of getting up and down (23%). And I was here-ish... like I said I didn't find the ball or assess the lie as I ran off the course.

 

 

Here is the flyover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Lh45FnvWw&t=399s

 

 

I know you are advocating from a sandbagging perspective but given my own personal goals of lower my handicap I still think the high adjustment is correct. Happy to change it to bogey if that is the consensus from everybody else, though.

[sui generis]

21 minutes ago, Celeras said:

 

Maybe? My odds of missing the green (24%) are higher than my odds of getting up and down (23%). And I was here-ish... like I said I didn't find the ball or assess the lie as I ran off the course.

 

 

Here is the flyover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Lh45FnvWw&t=399s

 

 

I know you are advocating from a sandbagging perspective but given my own personal goals of lower my handicap I still think the high adjustment is correct. Happy to change it to bogey if that is the consensus from everybody else, though.

 

It's not up to everyone (or anyone) else. Just look a RoH 3.3 and post your MLS. 🙂

[Celeras]

11 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

It's not up to everyone (or anyone) else. Just look a RoH 3.3 and post your MLS. 🙂

 

Very true and I think I did! Just inviting opinions as one does around here, but you're right I should probably stick to my guns. That would be a tough shot for me.

 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Celeras said:

 

Because taking a double instead of the bogey would raise the differential... and the round itself being amongst my 8 best would be working to lower my handicap. Aren't those opposite intentions? Maybe I am crazy lol.

 

If everyone thinks it should be a bogey I can make it a bogey... but the rule does say "3 or 4 strokes" and I went with the 4 knowing the situation. But I think the consensus so far is to make it the 18 hole score as opposed to the 9?

 

What rule says 3 or 4 strokes ? I must've missed that.

 

In any case, IF it were a hole not played your net par would be 3 (par).

 

Since you started the hole, it's a par 3 and you missed the green short right, as a 9.6 index (that is what you said, right ?) you would be expected to hit the green with your 2nd shot and 2 putt. MLS is without a doubt 4.

 

Putting down double raises the differential which raises your handicap since the round will be in your best 8 of 20, admittedly by only .125 of a stroke, but that matters not at all since you're looking to do the right thing.

 

MLS = bogey 4

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

  If the 14th is a par 3 I could see most likely.  But a par 4 or par 5?  How do you realistically have a most likely score after just the tee shot? 
  The rule is play 14 holes to post an 18 hole score.  Play 13 and you should post a 9 hole score.

  How is this a discussion when that is the rule?

 

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

The specific wording is:

"For an 18-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, a minimum of 14 holes must be played."

So how do we parse the word "played" in this situation?  Does it mean completed, or does it mean started?  To me, the title of Rules 3.2 and 3.3 provide clarity.  3.2 is " When a Hole is Not Played", while 3.3 is "When a Hole is Started But Player Does Not Hole Out".  It seems clear to me that a hole started should count as a hole played, even if the score comes form Rule 3.3.

 

Not sure if you saw dave's post right after yours but it seems to ring true to me.

 

14th was started = MLS. And 14th completed with MLS = 18 hole round with the last 4 holes accounted for by net par.

 

Not so ?

[Celeras]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

What rule says 3 or 4 strokes ? I must've missed that.

 

In any case, IF it were a hole not played your net par would be 3 (par).

 

Since you started the hole, it's a par 3 and you missed the green short right, as a 9.6 index (that is what you said, right ?) you would be expected to hit the green with your 2nd shot and 2 putt. MLS is without a doubt 4.

 

Putting down double raises the differential which raises your handicap since the round will be in your best 8 of 20, admittedly by only .125 of a stroke, but that matters not at all since you're looking to do the right thing.

 

MLS = bogey 4

 

I was referring to the chart in 3.3:

 

[sui generis]

Just now, nsxguy said:

14th was started = MLS. And 14th completed with MLS = 18 hole round with the last 4 holes accounted for by net par.

 

Not so ?

 

That's what many here seem to think. But, not many of us are "handicap guys" as opposed to "rules guys." Shilgy may ask his association and may let us know what they say.

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, Celeras said:

 

I was referring to the chart in 3.3:

 

 

Hadn't looked at that. Thanks.

 

Note the last part of the "3 or 4". Ability of the player.

 

I know that hole very well having played it at least a hundred times and where your ball was is a difficult up and down.

 

That said, a single digit 'cap should get that shot on the green at least 7 out of 10 times and while that green is one of the more sloped greens on the Black it ain't all that bad - sure ain't no Augusta.

 

I'd still say MLS = bogey. Remember, that is the 2nd easiest hole on the course. If you're going to take a double there for hole not completed I wonder what you'd take for most of the others ? Triple ? 

[nsxguy]

10 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

That's what many here seem to think. But, not many of us are "handicap guys" as opposed to "rules guys." Shilgy may ask his association and may let us know what they say.

 

Agreed. I hope he can get the info from his association.

 

But sans a handicapping rule of "If the last hole of the 9 hole or 18 hole event is started but not completed,,,,,,,,,,"

 

Without that I'm thinking it's only logical to connect the 2 separate scoring rules. Then again,,,,,,,,,,

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hadn't looked at that. Thanks.

 

Note the last part of the "3 or 4". Ability of the player.

 

I know that hole very well having played it at least a hundred times and where your ball was is a difficult up and down.

 

That said, a single digit 'cap should get that shot on the green at least 7 out of 10 times and while that green is one of the more sloped greens on the Black it ain't all that bad - sure ain't no Augusta.

 

I'd still say MLS = bogey. Remember, that is the 2nd easiest hole on the course. If you're going to take a double there for hole not completed I wonder what you'd take for most of the others ? Triple ? 

I might suggest that the honest player recognizes his or her own capabilities and can make the best decision on MLS within the guidelines in the Rules of Handicapping.  The fact that he or she is asking about what to post would suggest that they are not sandbagging.  And, whether it's a double bogey or triple bogey they record on that one hole is not likely to influence their handicap index more than 0.1.

Edited May 28, 2021 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

26 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I might suggest that the honest player recognizes his or her own capabilities and can make the best decision on MLS within the guidelines in the Rules of Handicapping.  The fact that he or she is asking about what to post would suggest that they are not sandbagging.  And, whether it's a double bogey or triple bogey they record on that one hole is not likely to influence their handicap index more than 0.1.

 

I understand all that and if I'm sounding like he's trying to sandbag I'll apologize. I'm not. I'm simply trying to explain why *I* think he should record bogey. That's it.

 

The math is simple. If it's a round that won't be in the best 8 of 20 the single stroke doesn't matter. If the round IS in the best 8 of 20 it matters 1/8 (.125) of a stroke for the player's index.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I understand all that and if I'm sounding like he's trying to sandbag I'll apologize. I'm not. I'm simply trying to explain why *I* think he should record bogey. That's it.

 

The math is simple. If it's a round that won't be in the best 8 of 20 the single stroke doesn't matter. If the round IS in the best 8 of 20 it matters 1/8 (.125) of a stroke for the player's index.

It was late afternoon when I sent the question to state association. I will certainly let y’all know what they say no matter if it’s for or against.

That said I agree, obviously duh, with NSX on the bogey 4.  
 

And contrary to som opinions the .125 can determine a match. Depending on rating/slope/par of the course being played it could be a whole stroke different in handicap that day.

 

Just trying to be accurate.

 

It does seem @Celeraswas trying to do the right thing but jumped on the 4 part of the 3or 4 strokes likely from 20 yards rather than most likely.  Granted he says he did not really see the lie as the raced the lightning home but a 9.6 is not making worse than bogey from there unless the lie was impossible.

 

But no matter….I will post what i get from state association.

[Augster]

One stroke on one hole of one round isn’t going to influence a player’s index by .1 ever. It’s statistically insignificant. 
 

That said, he should post a bogey for that hole. A double is preposterous. Though, statistically, it will not matter either way. 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

One stroke on one hole of one round isn’t going to influence a player’s index by .1 ever. It’s statistically insignificant. 
 

That said, he should post a bogey for that hole. A double is preposterous. Though, statistically, it will not matter either way. 

 

.1 in index can/may be the difference of a full stroke in the computation of course handicap depending of course (pun intended ) on the rating and slope of the tees/course played.

Edited May 28, 2021 by nsxguy

[Celeras]

If nothing else, you guys are definitely making me self conscious about my chipping 🤣

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

That said, he should post a bogey for that hole. A double is preposterous. Though, statistically, it will not matter either way. 

 

Let's see, what should the player do?

 

He could look at what the Rules of Handicapping 3.3 says and abide by that OR maybe he should just take the advice of some internet stranger. 🙄

[Augster]

He was greenside lying 1. He could toss the ball on the green and 2-putt. That’s a 4 MLS. 
 

While 3.3 gives a guide as to what MLS on each hole should be, I feel a player should guess their MLS as low as possible to avoid the appearance of sandbagging. 
 

In his situation, nobody would have a problem with him taking a par or birdie on the hole. Hardly anyone would have a problem with him taking a bogey. Almost everyone feels he is sandbagging taking a double. 
 

How often does he make 2? Let’s say 1/100. How often does he get it up and down and make 3, let’s say 20/100. How often does he get it on and 2 putt or miss the green then get that up and down for a 4? 70/100? Then how often does he make a double or worse? 9/100. MLS is a 4. 

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, Augster said:

One stroke on one hole of one round isn’t going to influence a player’s index by .1 ever. It’s statistically insignificant. 
 

That said, he should post a bogey for that hole. A double is preposterous. Though, statistically, it will not matter either way. 

No answer 

from state as yet. May be after Memorial Day weekend….

 

But @nsxguywas correct.  Under the 10 of 20 system every single stroke a counting  score  improve upon or was worse than a previous counting score was a difference of 0.1 for your index. So replace a 74 coming off with a 72- yes same course same tees and avoiding a PCC for the pedantic- it would lower your index by 0.2.

  Today with 8 of 20 counting the movement is in increments of 0.125. 
  And remember the old slider on the GHIN app? Where you used your index and moved to the slope to get your course handicap?  The system is really the same today for each  set of tees. You can get one from your pro to know where the breaks in handicap are. 
 

It would look like this….

tatum ranch.pdf

[Shilgy]

Well, I received an answer today from the Arizona state golf association and I was incorrect.  Use the “most likely score” on hole 14 and post an 18 hole score.

 

He did, however, stress repeatedly that this is as long as it is a legit score posting and NOT an attempt to game the system in any way. So no fudging the most likely and not when in an attempt to get that low counting score off your scoring record before an event.  He conceded it is difficult to police but the posting of the 18 hole score was correct.

[sui generis]

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Use the “most likely score” on hole 14 and post an 18 hole score.

 

Thanks, Shilgy, now we know.

 

We're not here to "be right," but to "get it right." 🙂

Edited June 2, 2021 by sui generis