Dr Kwon

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I believe this is where it becomes an individual feel versus what’s actually happening discussion.  Every lesson I have both.  In an hour, the first 2-3 minutes is what actually happens and what needs to happen.  Then that gets put aside and the other 58 minutes is what feels have to happen to make it happen.  If there isn’t a positive movement pattern and data improvement change…let’s try again.  People say golf through feels is bad because feels are fleeting.  That’s true……..unless you start from a premise that the feel has to result in one or more objective movement pattern improvements.  
 

This is why the rotating morass of feels most golfers use never creates long lasting improvement.  They are only producing something that makes the ball fly well that day with no attention to long term outcome.  
 

Can’t have one without the other.  

Some (many) people need to feel arms down to to link up and max out their speed.  Some need to feel out.  Some need to feel forward.  

Edited December 31, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[Zitlow]

@Dshepley I think he's right from between P5 and P6 to the finish they are freewheeling conduits. The left arm is the radius for the swing until after impact. The right arm is amplifying the lower body force, after impact it becomes the radius of the swing to the finish. 

[DShepley]

55 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I believe this is where it becomes an individual feel versus what’s actually happening discussion.  Every lesson I have both.  In an hour, the first 2-3 minutes is what actually happens and what needs to happen.  Then that gets put aside and the other 58 minutes is what feels have to happen to make it happen.  If there isn’t a positive movement pattern and data improvement change…let’s try again.  People say golf through feels is bad because feels are fleeting.  That’s true……..unless you start from a premise that the feel has to result in one or more objective movement pattern improvements.  
 

This is why the rotating morass of feels most golfers use never creates long lasting improvement.  They are only producing something that makes the ball fly well that day with no attention to long term outcome.  
 

Can’t have one without the other.  

Teaching through feels is also the quickest way to improvement in my view.  You have to be able to associate some kind of feel to the correct or desired pattern and be able to differentiate that feel from the incorrect pattern otherwise nothing will stick.  The problem people get into is that they are quick to abandon the feel and chase a new one if it stops working periodically or, they just have way too many feels they are trying to manage, (guilty here from time to time).  What I like about these videos by Dr Kwon is that he is explaining a movement pattern and essentially focusing on directing the club / club head on a good path.  Practice swings like the step drill where you swing up to P8 to start the swing are great because it is a reminder that you need to return the club back through that position.  I sometimes wonder if the best way to teach a new golfer is to show them a video in slow motion of how the entire club moves with the body removed from the view....just a club moving shown through various 3D angles.  Then, add the body to the view and illustrate the movements.  This would give a better understanding of how the body needs to move to accommodate the movement.  For instance, the person would understand that the hands need to move 'up, back, and away' rather than straight to the ball from the top.

[DShepley]

6 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

@Dshepley I think he's right from between P5 and P6 to the finish they are freewheeling conduits. The left arm is the radius for the swing until after impact. The right arm is amplifying the lower body force, after impact it becomes the radius of the swing to the finish. 

My take is that because he has shown the player where to throw their arms to, and the step drill has the person start from P8 as a reminder and to build momentum, you don't require any further thought as to what the hands / arms need to do.  If they are directing the momentum towards the correct place in the correct sequence, then no further attention is needed.  Delaying the throw of the arms, maintains the proper structure or in other words, you compromise the structure by throwing them early, or late.  That's my take.

[glk]

28 minutes ago, DShepley said:

In one of the earlier videos, if I recall, he mentioned that as the path moves further from neutral, the amount of variation between the club face angle and path increases. So, based on his measured data, my guess is that if the student moves the club on a good path with a correct sequence, the club face will behave as a result without much need to think about the hands.

I know he has talked about the drills, as he prescribes, are intended to separate the power/speed  generation and the directional control.    Basically core provides power and upper body directional control.   He sees arm swingers as combining  both within their upper body and thus making it more difficult.    His asynchronous is separating the horizontal from the rotational - so shift is horizontal, turn rotational, etc.    the two step, as he stated, is key since the others eliminate  the steps - master it and the other follow easier.      
 

 

[MPStrat]

To clarify what I’m saying about Dr Kwon’s preferences along with many others who teach a body driven swing, he’s not advocating spinning early and then adding  insult to injury by collapsing the arm structure (which will show on video as the arms being behind). Additionally, passive noodle arms as a concept can be extremely problematic.
 

In 3d space when the arm structure collapses, that’s generally a forward or behind movement issue in relation the chest. The methods of fixing this problem can be debated. I’m talking about lowering the lead arm down the chest vs leaving it where it is. Justin Rose vs DJ. Pulling down vs leaving it where it is in relation to the chest. I cannot say that lowering the arms is bad, because it’s all over the tour. But it’s just not what everyone does and it’s not what Kwon and many others are teaching.

[MonteScheinblum]

22 minutes ago, DShepley said:

My take is that because he has shown the player where to throw their arms to, and the step drill has the person start from P8 as a reminder and to build momentum, you don't require any further thought as to what the hands / arms need to do.  If they are directing the momentum towards the correct place in the correct sequence, then no further attention is needed.  Delaying the throw of the arms, maintains the proper structure or in other words, you compromise the structure by throwing them early, or late.  That's my take.

The last sentence says it all.  Early AND late are bad.   

[zacgolf]

Latest from his YouTube channel 

 

 

[Zitlow]

For the Dr Kwon aficionados I stumbled across his latest step drills. 

 

 

[CasualLie]

49 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

For the Dr Kwon aficionados I stumbled across his latest step drills. 

 

 

It's pretty hilarious Fred hits it like a single digit with Happy feet and the average schmoe visiting Kwon can't do the two step without practically falling over the first 10 minutes.

[Hilts1969]

7 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

In all likelihood there will never be a teacher or researcher that will ever teach anything new.  Too many golfers/instructors have taught too many things that may have varying levels of accuracy to them.

 

Therefore the real comparison is what the teacher/researcher is teaching versus what popular, conventional teaching says.

 

Sure there have been instructors that have taught that the backswing needs to move faster than most amateurs think it does.  But popular convention tells you to go 'low and slow' in the backswing.  Furthermore, most of those teachers that taught golfers to swing back faster had their students doing it with the arms/hands instead of the body pivot.  Dr. Kwon's research goes against convention and gives a more accurate understanding of the how and why.

 

Another aspect of popular, conventional instruction is to make your transition move after the backswing is completed.  As Dr. Kwon explains, the transition move should start around p3 and in faster swinging players like a Drew Cooper, it starts closer to p2.

 

I've heard some discussion of trigger moves to start the swing before Dr. Kwon came along.  But outside of Kelvin Miyahira and Lucas Wald, they didn't describe the key pieces of the trigger move correctly.  And again, popular conventional instruction never mentions the trigger move.

 

I remember hearing Ernie Els say he felt that the transition part of the swing should be the slowest part of the golf swing.  Obviously, that's a feel isn't real.  But popular conventional instruction has the golfer putting more effort into the downswing than in the backswing.

 

And yes, many of the drills he teaches are not new, but they are not part of popular conventional instruction and as Dr. Kwon shows how golfers can easily do them incorrectly.

 

There have been biomechanists involved with golf instruction well before Dr. Kwon.  The difference is that when Dr. Kwon came along the technology had developed to help more accurately measure the golf swing and measure more parts of the golf swing.  That allowed Dr. Kwon and other biomechanists to better understand what is really going on.  The same with MLB and that's why the velocity of fastballs and sliders has risen dramatically in recent years.

 

It's not a miracle, it's just time and improvements in technology have allowed people to be understand how to implement this into golfer's swings.

 

 

 

RH

 

There is one main problem with this in 2022(happy new year folks) there is no conventional instruction. I have seen more swing the club move off the ball ground force etc in the last few years than low and slow.

 

People think I am critiquing Dr kwon but I ain't. All I'm saying is it ain't new, ground breaking or a huge step forward. 

 

Unless someone can give me one thing that makes this a game changer then I ain't changing my outlook. Its another guy selling the best way to swing a metal stick at a ball. We are searching for a magic move or moves that don't exist.

[Forged4life]

3 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

There is one main problem with this in 2022(happy new year folks) there is no conventional instruction. I have seen more swing the club move off the ball ground force etc in the last few years than low and slow.

 

People think I am critiquing Dr kwon but I ain't. All I'm saying is it ain't new, ground breaking or a huge step forward. 

 

Unless someone can give me one thing that makes this a game changer then I ain't changing my outlook. Its another guy selling the best way to swing a metal stick at a ball. We are searching for a magic move or moves that don't exist.

Cool, noted. So let the people that are into it discuss it without derailing or your “approval” Thanks

[Hilts1969]

5 hours ago, MPStrat said:

To clarify what I’m saying about Dr Kwon’s preferences along with many others who teach a body driven swing, he’s not advocating spinning early and then adding  insult to injury by collapsing the arm structure (which will show on video as the arms being behind). Additionally, passive noodle arms as a concept can be extremely problematic.
 

In 3d space when the arm structure collapses, that’s generally a forward or behind movement issue in relation the chest. The methods of fixing this problem can be debated. I’m talking about lowering the lead arm down the chest vs leaving it where it is. Justin Rose vs DJ. Pulling down vs leaving it where it is in relation to the chest. I cannot say that lowering the arms is bad, because it’s all over the tour. But it’s just not what everyone does and it’s not what Kwon and many others are teaching.

 

Dustin lowers his arms in the downswing that's a fact. If he lowers it as much as rose is semantics. No pro golfer I have ever seen doesn't speed up and lower his arms.

[Hilts1969]

Just now, Forged4life said:

Cool, noted. So let the people that are into it discuss it without derailing or your “approval” Thanks

 

Sorry I thought forums were for discussions. I would expect if I searched your posts they were all positive for every point of view that a OP posted on. Otherwise that would be highly hypocritical of you. 

[airjammer]

30 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

There is one main problem with this in 2022(happy new year folks) there is no conventional instruction. I have seen more swing the club move off the ball ground force etc in the last few years than low and slow.

 

People think I am critiquing Dr kwon but I ain't. All I'm saying is it ain't new, ground breaking or a huge step forward. 

 

Unless someone can give me one thing that makes this a game changer then I ain't changing my outlook. Its another guy selling the best way to swing a metal stick at a ball. We are searching for a magic move or moves that don't exist.

The ground breaking part it that he basically proves the old timers were right for the most part about how to swing the club.  I don’t know who exactly started the trend in the past few years but I’m giving Dr. Kwon a lot of credit for bringing motion and athleticism back into instruction. Instructors may have benefited $$$ from david ledbetter but I’m not so sure the average golfer has. 
 

This phase of golf instruction may pass quickly as well but it’s definitely more fun than positional golf practice and it being fun can’t be a bad thing imo

[Hilts1969]

7 minutes ago, airjammer said:

The ground breaking part it that he basically proves the old timers were right for the most part about how to swing the club.  I don’t know who exactly started the trend in the past few years but I’m giving Dr. Kwon a lot of credit for bringing motion and athleticism back into instruction. Instructors may have benefited $$$ from david ledbetter but I’m not so sure the average golfer has. 
 

This phase of golf instruction may pass quickly as well but it’s definitely more fun than positional golf practice and it being fun can’t be a bad thing imo

 

Nick Faldo and many others say hi:-)

[airjammer]

17 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Nick Faldo and many others say hi:-)

That’s why I said average golfer..tour players are freaks on nature..it’s just that simple. Jack said he could have 3 swings thoughts and do them all.
 

As you can see Dr Kwon has to have the patience of Job just to get a average player to do a step drill semi correctly in 1 hr. 

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Dustin lowers his arms in the downswing that's a fact. If he lowers it as much as rose is semantics.

Is it semantics because you say it’s semantics? I’d say it’s the entire point. There is a drastic difference. I would throw this back at ya... if DJ’s arms lower, it’s a small enough amount to be described as semantics. Now if you wanted to discuss the potential pros and cons of the differences in what these golfers do with their arms, I’m in. But if you are set in your belief that every golfer does the same thing in this case, and powers the swing the same way and any difference is semantics, I don’t think there is anything left to discuss. You are free to believe what you want. 

[MPStrat]

52 minutes ago, airjammer said:

 Instructors may have benefited $$$ from david ledbetter but I’m not so sure the average golfer has. 

The new David Ledbetter is golf pros misinterpreting incomplete 3d data and marketing their interpretation as universal truth.

[Forged4life]

 

1 hour ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Sorry I thought forums were for discussions. I would expect if I searched your posts they were all positive for every point of view that a OP posted on. Otherwise that would be highly hypocritical of you. 

Continually being negative and saying you’ll have to be convinced like everyone needs your approval isn’t discussion. We get it you made your point and not sure why you have to keep bringing it up. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Forged4life

[Nels55]

I am curious about something here...  I have read a number of comments that what Dr. Kwon is teaching is nothing new and the step drills seem to be considered common place.  In my case I have read books, taken lessons and watched videos for 50 years or more starting with books and magazine articles and I have never seen or been taught drills in this manner.  I have done step drills but they were more along the lines of swinging like a baseball player and not at all like what Dr. Kwon is teaching.  So, I am wondering how many of you out there have done drills duplicating what Dr. Kwon is teaching in these videos?  Or perhaps you have been taught this motion in a different manner?

[zacgolf]

36 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am curious about something here...  I have read a number of comments that what Dr. Kwon is teaching is nothing new and the step drills seem to be considered common place.  In my case I have read books, taken lessons and watched videos for 50 years or more starting with books and magazine articles and I have never seen or been taught drills in this manner.  I have done step drills but they were more along the lines of swinging like a baseball player and not at all like what Dr. Kwon is teaching.  So, I am wondering how many of you out there have done drills duplicating what Dr. Kwon is teaching in these videos?  Or perhaps you have been taught this motion in a different manner?

👏👏👏

Edited January 1, 2022 by zacgolf

[Hilts1969]

7 hours ago, Forged4life said:

 

Continually being negative and saying you’ll have to be convinced like everyone needs your approval isn’t discussion. We get it you made your point and not sure why you have to keep bringing it up. 

 

Not sure why you keep replying to me then, self awareness is a funny thing. Also everyone needs my approval? Never said it never indicated it you have literally made that up.

As I don’t want to waste my time with people who can’t see the obvious that it takes two to argue but it’s never them and then resorts to fabrications it’s best we leave it eh?

 

 

[Forged4life]

5 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

it’s best we leave it eh?

 

 

Kinda my point. Happy new year!

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Is it semantics because you say it’s semantics? I’d say it’s the entire point. There is a drastic difference. I would throw this back at ya... if DJ’s arms lower, it’s a small enough amount to be described as semantics. Now if you wanted to discuss the potential pros and cons of the differences in what these golfers do with their arms, I’m in. But if you are set in your belief that every golfer does the same thing in this case, and powers the swing the same way and any difference is semantics, I don’t think there is anything left to discuss. You are free to believe what you want. 

 

Never said every golfer does the same thing, please show me where I did. You said some golfers don’t lower their arms independently. If you are now saying you were incorrect and they do but by different amounts  I’m glad you have cleared up your false claim. I just replied to something you said as opposed to you who has replied with something I never said.. 

 

 

[Hilts1969]

1 minute ago, Forged4life said:

Kinda my point. Happy new year!

 

You couldn’t do it what a surprise:-)

 

Happy new year to you as well.

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, airjammer said:

That’s why I said average golfer..tour players are freaks on nature..it’s just that simple. Jack said he could have 3 swings thoughts and do them all.
 

As you can see Dr Kwon has to have the patience of Job just to get a average player to do a step drill semi correctly in 1 hr. 

 

It would actually be very interesting to see him give a lesson to a mid handicapper but I understand why someone wouldn’t want to give everything away when it comes to teaching. I would imagine he would adjust to what the client needs. 

[airjammer]

I don’t know his handicap but I’d say his long game swing is probably on of a non slicing 8+ handicap. He could be scratch for all I know but he’s longer in to tooth than most of Dr. Kwons students. Anyway, you can see the struggles he has coordinating the movements like Dr. Kwon is instructing. Hence my saying that he has the patience of Job. 
 

From everything I can tell he and what Brendon has said..he isn’t holding anything back. He not a teacher and the money doesn’t go directly to him that I am aware of.  This isn’t a golf teacher that using this as a instagram advertisement, it’s essentially a science project. Now all of that being said, he obviously is getting something out of it one way or another. 

[johnrobison]

11 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

There is one main problem with this in 2022(happy new year folks) there is no conventional instruction. I have seen more swing the club move off the ball ground force etc in the last few years than low and slow.

 

People think I am critiquing Dr kwon but I ain't. All I'm saying is it ain't new, ground breaking or a huge step forward. 

 

Unless someone can give me one thing that makes this a game changer then I ain't changing my outlook. Its another guy selling the best way to swing a metal stick at a ball. We are searching for a magic move or moves that don't exist.

Yet you, yourself, have paid money for the retelling of drills and concepts that have been taught before. You must believe there's some merit in it.

 

Whether Dr Kwon is breaking new ground isn't really an objective thing - very little is wholly new - but many great instructors and very high-level players are using his research and methods to improve in ways they hadn't before. Look at the before and after of his students and you see a massive difference in sequencing which, for them, is in fact a huge step forward (no pun intended).

[rchang72]

Watching that last video highlights how much personal refinement is needed when getting a lesson.  Where in BBG vids Dr. Kwon didn’t want arms to come down, @36:43 he tells this student to lower his arms. Then sweep forward. It seems the central theme is to use core for force/speed and let the arms do the aiming. Kind of like race cars are rear wheeled to allow the front wheels to steer better