Determining course handicaps

[mark m]

The GHIN mobile app makes it easy. For those in the USGA system, I would highly recommend it. The daily updates can be an issue as some group members might have forgot to check their handicap prior to play - for instance, on a Saturday morning if they played and posted on Friday afternoon/evening.

 

1. Download the app. 
2. Select “Handicap Calculator”

3. Enter “Course Name” in the search box (not necessarily your home course - enter the golf course you are playing that day)

4. Touch on the red “Add Golfers” and enter name and proper state from the drop down box.

5. Choose proper tee from the “Select Tees” drop down box to the right of each player.

 

For each player the app will show:

HI = Handicap Index

CH = Course Handicap 

PH = Playing Handicap

SO = Shots Off 

 

Handicap allowance choices are available as well. The players you add stay in there unless you remove them. 
 

Edited April 16, 2022 by mark m

[Newby]

4 hours ago, Seamus_McDuff said:

She’s talking about which holes she gets shots on in match play. 
 

 

 

 

 

So she means 'Stroke Indices' or the 'Stroke Index' for each hole for the appropriate gender.

Makes sense now the words in the book have be identified. 😉

Edited April 16, 2022 by Newby

[davep043]

6 hours ago, Seamus_McDuff said:

 

I believe it’s “yes” because as @davep043 wrote earlier, “strokes are allocated based on the stroke indices for the higher handicappers tees

To be clear, I haven't come up with a specific reference , there's definitely a chance I am not correct here.

[Newby]

49 minutes ago, davep043 said:

To be clear, I haven't come up with a specific reference , there's definitely a chance I am not correct here.

I have just found an old note from my then club secretary with instructions re mixed matches. I don't know if he just made them up but I can't find anything in the old CONGU manual. The note says all play to their own pars and indices.

 

Edit: Now found this on the R&A site

 

Which card is used in Mixed Foursomes and Four-Ball formats?

• In Foursomes competitions from mixed tees, the Committee must specify in the Terms of the Competition which single set of tees will determine the Pars and Stroke Index that are to be used
• In Four-Ball formats from mixed tees, individual players score using the card and Stroke Index appropriate for the tee they are playing from

 

I would suggest individual matchplay would follow the Four-ball process

Edited April 16, 2022 by Newby

[Newby]

I have also found this on a reputable pre WHS golf magazine website.

 

Determining win/loss of hole when using different pars/stroke indexes

To determine the outcome of each hole (win/loss/half) when using different sets of tees and stroke indexes, it is important to note that each competitor’s score is made relative to the par and stroke index on the card from the hole they are playing.

For example, the third hole is stroke index 1 and a par four from the Red tees. Morag (strokes received = 3) takes four shots to complete the hole from the Red tee, which is a nett score of birdie as she receives a stroke here. The third hole is stroke index 15 and a par five from the Yellow tees. John (strokes received = 7) takes five shots to complete the hole from the Yellow tee, which is a nett par as he does not receive a stroke here. Therefore, Morag wins the hole with a nett birdie.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

I have also found this on a reputable pre WHS golf magazine website.

 

Determining win/loss of hole when using different pars/stroke indexes

To determine the outcome of each hole (win/loss/half) when using different sets of tees and stroke indexes, it is important to note that each competitor’s score is made relative to the par and stroke index on the card from the hole they are playing.

For example, the third hole is stroke index 1 and a par four from the Red tees. Morag (strokes received = 3) takes four shots to complete the hole from the Red tee, which is a nett score of birdie as she receives a stroke here. The third hole is stroke index 15 and a par five from the Yellow tees. John (strokes received = 7) takes five shots to complete the hole from the Yellow tee, which is a nett par as he does not receive a stroke here. Therefore, Morag wins the hole with a nett birdie.

Isn't "par" irrelevant and the players compare the acutal scores made (gross or net, whichever is applicable) to determine who won or lost the hole?

[Mudguard]

9 hours ago, Newby said:

I have also found this on a reputable pre WHS golf magazine website.

 

Determining win/loss of hole when using different pars/stroke indexes

To determine the outcome of each hole (win/loss/half) when using different sets of tees and stroke indexes, it is important to note that each competitor’s score is made relative to the par and stroke index on the card from the hole they are playing.

For example, the third hole is stroke index 1 and a par four from the Red tees. Morag (strokes received = 3) takes four shots to complete the hole from the Red tee, which is a nett score of birdie as she receives a stroke here. The third hole is stroke index 15 and a par five from the Yellow tees. John (strokes received = 7) takes five shots to complete the hole from the Yellow tee, which is a nett par as he does not receive a stroke here. Therefore, Morag wins the hole with a nett birdie.

Doesn't the lower handicapper not go to zero? How are they both getting strokes?

[DaveLeeNC]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:03 PM, rogolf said:

Isn't "par" irrelevant and the players compare the acutal scores made (gross or net, whichever is applicable) to determine who won or lost the hole?

 

Par is no longer irrelevant in a WHS handicapped event since par is now part of the 'how many strokes do I get' equation. Right now the essence of 'shooting your handicap' is to shoot 'net par' (within roundoff errors). So if two players in a handicapped stroke play event both shoot their handicap you would expect (within roundoff) them to roughly tie (I am assuming no one shoots over their ESC). But if player A is playing from tees rated par 70 and player B from tees rated par 72, there would be a problem 'just counting strokes'. Player A wins even though he/she did not shoot better than player B relative to their index. 

 

dave 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Par is no longer irrelevant in a WHS handicapped event since par is now part of the 'how many strokes do I get' equation. Right now the essence of 'shooting your handicap' is to shoot 'net par' (within roundoff errors). So if two players in a handicapped stroke play event both shoot their handicap you would expect (within roundoff) them to roughly tie (I am assuming no one shoots over their ESC). But if player A is playing from tees rated par 70 and player B from tees rated par 72, there would be a problem 'just counting strokes'. Player A wins even though he/she did not shoot better than player B relative to their index. 

 

dave 

I thought we were talking about match play, and that is the basis of my comment - I don't think that a player's score relative to par (birdie, bogey) is used to determine who won or lost the hole, it's just a matter of strokes taken to complete the hole.  Is this not correct for match play?

[DaveLeeNC]

12 hours ago, rogolf said:

I thought we were talking about match play, and that is the basis of my comment - I don't think that a player's score relative to par (birdie, bogey) is used to determine who won or lost the hole, it's just a matter of strokes taken to complete the hole.  Is this not correct for match play?

 

No, that is not correct. Take hole #13 at Pinehurst No. 1. It is about 40 yards longer (par 5) from the primary red tees (most commonly played by the ladies) vs. the tees most commonly played by the men (who at our club are most commonly old) - and it is a par 4 for the guys.  The ladies would (and should) be rightfully upset at seeing their net par not win against a man's net bogey. 

 

Or said another way if someone playing the ladies tees shoots net par on every hole they lose by two strokes to someone shooting net par on every hole from the men's tees. 

 

dave

 

In the italics part I ignored the PH calculation step which give the lady and extra 2 strokes due to the difference in pars. So my comments are wrong. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[rogolf]

7 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

No, that is not correct. Take hole #13 at Pinehurst No. 1. It is about 40 yards longer (par 5) from the primary red tees (most commonly played by the ladies) vs. the tees most commonly played by the men (who at our club are most commonly old) - and it is a par 4 for the guys.  The ladies would (and should) be rightfully upset at seeing their net par not win against a man's net bogey. 

 

Or said another way if someone playing the ladies tees shoots net par on every hole they lose by two strokes to someone shooting net par on every hole from the men's tees. 

 

dave

I would call that hole a half - they both scored  net 5, as par/bogey is irrelevant when the par for the hole is different for each.  Isn't that why the difference in par for the man and woman is included in the strokes being given?

Edited April 18, 2022 by rogolf

[DaveLeeNC]

11 hours ago, rogolf said:

I would call that hole a half - they both scored  net 5.

 

Then you need to take that up with the WHS folks - that is not their view (and is also logically inconsistent).  The italics part is wrong. I missed the fact that there is an additional par adjustment made in calculating PH. My error.

 

dave 

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[DaveLeeNC]

11 hours ago, rogolf said:

I would call that hole a half - they both scored  net 5, as par/bogey is irrelevant when the par for the hole is different for each.  Isn't that why the difference in par for the man and woman is included in the strokes being given?

 

I will respond to the edited post. The lady sees her CH reduced by 2 additional strokes because par is included and her par is 2 strokes higher. That has to be recovered somewhere.

 

If they both shoot net par on every hole other than the two holes where the par is different then they are tied for those 16 holes. And if they both shoot net par on those 2 holes, he wins even though they both shot their handicap by hole on every hole (and for the round as well, BTW). 

 

The italics part is incomplete (and wrong). I ignored the fact that in determining PH, the difference is par (which was basically subtracted out when calculating CH) is added back in when calculating PH. 

 

dave

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[rogolf]

48 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I will respond to the edited post. The lady sees her CH reduced by 2 additional strokes because par is included and her par is 2 strokes higher. That has to be recovered somewhere.

 

If they both shoot net par on every hole other than the two holes where the par is different then they are tied for those 16 holes. And if they both shoot net par on those 2 holes, he wins even though they both shot their handicap by hole on every hole (and for the round as well, BTW). 

 

dave

Aren't those two strokes recovered through the playing handicap calculation?

Course Handicap and Playing Handicap

Q. When players compete from different tees, do we have to make any adjustments?

A. Since a Course Handicap™ represents the number of strokes received to play to par, an adjustment is only necessary if players are competing from tees with different pars.

When par is different, the player(s) competing from the tees with the higher par simply add the difference in par to their Playing Handicap(s)™. (Rule 6.2b, Rules of Handicapping)

[davep043]

9 hours ago, rogolf said:

Aren't those two strokes recovered through the playing handicap calculation?

Course Handicap and Playing Handicap

Q. When players compete from different tees, do we have to make any adjustments?

A. Since a Course Handicap™ represents the number of strokes received to play to par, an adjustment is only necessary if players are competing from tees with different pars.

When par is different, the player(s) competing from the tees with the higher par simply add the difference in par to their Playing Handicap(s)™. (Rule 6.2b, Rules of Handicapping)

I understand it the way you do, it is the actual number of strokes taken (less handicap strokes) that matters in match play, not the relation to par.  Once the "par correction" is applied, the handicap difference is based on the difference in Course Rating and Slope only, the effect of the differing pars has been eliminated.  And again, its probably important to continue to stress this, this only applies in regions where the Course Handicap calculation includes the (CR-Par) term, such as USGA areas.

 

10 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I will respond to the edited post. The lady sees her CH reduced by 2 additional strokes because par is included and her par is 2 strokes higher. That has to be recovered somewhere.

The player whose tees have the higher par has the PH increased by the difference between the pars.

[mark m]

Just a small insert here regarding my post at the top of the page: the GHIN app does include the difference in pars in the PH calculation when players are competing from tees with different pars.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

@rogolf @DavePelz4 I have made an error here. I was careless and did not realize that after making a par adjustment in the CH calculation for All golfers (which lowers the strokes received by the lady due to the higher par) they turn right around (for the case of mixed tees/different pars) and add it right back in when calculating the PH. I don't know why they do it that way, but that is the choice that was made and my post was wrong. I will go correct that as soon as I hit 'SUBMIT'. 

 

dave

 

ps. Holy Cow - had to fix a bunch of posts.

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[davep043]

30 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't know why they do it that way, but that is the choice that was made

To me, this is a result of the decision (in USGA areas at least) to base Course Handicap on Par, as opposed to Course Rating as was the case before.  This choice makes sense when considering the change to the maximum hole score, which is also based on par (net double bogey, so par is involved).  That choice also makes it really easy to allow competition from different tees, there is no longer any correction required for differences in Course Rating, which WAS required previously.  To me, it seems that there are far fewer occasions when the (par - par) adjustment is required, as compared to the old days when the (CR - CR) was done.

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

To me, this is a result of the decision (in USGA areas at least) to base Course Handicap on Par, as opposed to Course Rating as was the case before.  This choice makes sense when considering the change to the maximum hole score, which is also based on par (net double bogey, so par is involved).  That choice also makes it really easy to allow competition from different tees, there is no longer any correction required for differences in Course Rating, which WAS required previously.  To me, it seems that there are far fewer occasions when the (par - par) adjustment is required, as compared to the old days when the (CR - CR) was done.

 

@DavePelz4 I agree with what you said, but that is not the decision I was questioning. I was just stating that they could have simply not make the par difference part of the PH calculation and let Match Play players score against par rather than absolute net strokes (now that 'par has been let out of the handicap box). This would avoid the strange (IMHO) case of the 13th hole at Pinehurst No. 1 described below. 

 

Assume that a gal and guy both have CH handicaps (from their respective tees) of 2. So the gal gets 2 strokes somewhere (from the PH par delta step) and then she proceeds to play even on hole #13 against the guy despite the fact that he is teeing off 40 yards in front of her. But I suppose that this way of scoring for match play would be viewed as extremely odd to those who play match play regularly.

 

dave

 

ps. A better 'solution' still would be for course designers to quit this idea of mixed pars. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[mark m]

From my perspective, including the CR - Par in the calculation for CH has been a big net positive. Because we play from different tees, we had constant complaining for about 10 years about Section 3-5 (the second calculation when players were competing from different tees). Things are much more peaceful now. Some of the guys  playing forward had some fun with it when it was first implemented. “I see I improved 3 strokes over the winter” - and so on. (Because their CH dropped 3 strokes. The CR from forward tees is around 69. Par is 72.)

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by mark m

[DaveLeeNC]

4 minutes ago, mark m said:

From my perspective, including the CR in the calculation for CH has been a big net positive. Because we play from different tees, we had constant complaining for about 10 years about Section 3-5 (the second calculation when players were competing from different tees). Things are much more peaceful now. Some of the guys  playing forward had some fun with it when it was first implemented. “I see I improved 3 strokes over the winter” - and so on. (Because their CH dropped 3 strokes. The CR from forward tees is around 69. Par is 72.)

 

 

I completely agree - I just wish they would have 'stuck with it' for match play. dave

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I completely agree - I just wish they would have 'stuck with it' for match play. dave

Match play scoring was always, and should remain, based on the number of strokes taken to complete a hole (including handicap strokes), and never be based on birdie, bogey etc (which are merely related to "par", a nebulous integer and totally irrelevant in the original game).  😉

Edited April 18, 2022 by rogolf

[DaveLeeNC]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Match play scoring was always, and should remain, based on the number of strokes taken to complete a hole (including handicap strokes), and never be based on birdie, bogey etc (which are merely related to "par", a nebulous integer and totally irrelevant in the original game).  😉

 

I can see how folks would feel that way. dave

 

ps. I don't play much match play and have a preference for mathematical purity. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[Hawkeye77]

OP, I agree with a post above - get the GHIN app!

 

The relevant question is with all this betting, what are the stakes? 😉

[DaveLeeNC]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Match play scoring was always, and should remain, based on the number of strokes taken to complete a hole (including handicap strokes), and never be based on birdie, bogey etc (which are merely related to "par", a nebulous integer and totally irrelevant in the original game).  😉

 

Yes, we really should play all these handicapped, mixed tee matches like they did when the game originated 😀  😀

Edited April 18, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[nsxguy]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:11 AM, Miss_Tee said:

i was referring to when my husband and I play match play against each other. I’m getting strokes from him, so I use the women's handicap rating to determine which holes I get the strokes on. The holes rated most difficult for women are different from the ones rated most difficult for men. 

 

So Miss_Tee, aren't you glad you asked ? How'd you make out this past weekend ?

 

Anywho, I've read through the entire thread again and, regarding your original post (stroke play) I think ol' KRT gave you the correct answer early on.

 

Sounds like you're double-dipping. IF you're in the USA.

 

One has to remember a couple of things. This is a GLOBAL site and many here are not from the USA. The WHS has some differences depending on where you are and I don't recall you saying where you're from.

 

In the USA the (GHIN) CH (Course Handicap) calculation INCLUDES the difference in course rating. So the 2 shots difference in PAR should be taken care of in the calc and not added again later.

 

However, with the W(orld)HS, the UK (for one), does NOT include the "course rating-par" in the calculation so, in the UK, one would have to do that after the CH calc.

 

As for doing the PH (Playing Handicap) adjustment, which I don't believe you mentioned, in stroke play (95%) that would cost you 1 more stroke. Your 13 CH becomes a 12 PH; his 10 stays at 10.

 

In match play (100%), of course, no change of CH to PH.

 

Being that everything else looks correct in your OP, I would think you get 6, not 9. -2 for the double dip and -1 for the 95% PH adjustment.

 

As for who won, the low NET score wins. Relation to par is irrelevant.

 

 

Now, for 1-on-1 MATCH play. It seems as though a consensus hasn't been reached (yet ?) but it looks to me like each player gets his/her strokes wherever they fall based on the male or female handicap stroke hole allocation on the card; then compare the net scores on each hole.

 

I would agree with those who believe the net score, not the relation to par, is then compared to determine who won that hole.

 

 

So how do you and your husband generally make out ? I would think for match play it'd be around 50% wins for each of you. Stroke play could be more variable but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[davep043]

40 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

In the USA the (GHIN) CH (Course Handicap) calculation INCLUDES the difference in course rating. So the 2 shots difference in PAR should be taken care of in the calc and not added again later.

The CH calculation makes the "target score" for each player equal to par, so differences in Course Rating are taken care of at that level.  For competitions with different pars for players, the player whose "course" has the higher par gets extra strokes.  This is Rule 6.2b in the Handicapping Rules.  

Going back to the OP, Mister Tee plays to his handicap, shoots 80, net 70 (even par).  @Miss_Tee plays to her handicap, shoots 85, net 72 (also even par).  When they compete against each other, @Miss_Tee gets 2 additional strokes, the difference between her par and Mister Tee's par, so she gets 5 strokes from him.

Edited April 18, 2022 by davep043

[Miss_Tee]

48 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

So Miss_Tee, aren't you glad you asked ? How'd you make out this past weekend ?

 

Anywho, I've read through the entire thread again and, regarding your original post (stroke play) I think ol' KRT gave you the correct answer early on.

 

Sounds like you're double-dipping. IF you're in the USA.

 

One has to remember a couple of things. This is a GLOBAL site and many here are not from the USA. The WHS has some differences depending on where you are and I don't recall you saying where you're from.

 

In the USA the (GHIN) CH (Course Handicap) calculation INCLUDES the difference in course rating. So the 2 shots difference in PAR should be taken care of in the calc and not added again later.

 

However, with the W(orld)HS, the UK (for one), does NOT include the "course rating-par" in the calculation so, in the UK, one would have to do that after the CH calc.

 

As for doing the PH (Playing Handicap) adjustment, which I don't believe you mentioned, in stroke play (95%) that would cost you 1 more stroke. Your 13 CH becomes a 12 PH; his 10 stays at 10.

 

In match play (100%), of course, no change of CH to PH.

 

Being that everything else looks correct in your OP, I would think you get 6, not 9. -2 for the double dip and -1 for the 95% PH adjustment.

 

As for who won, the low NET score wins. Relation to par is irrelevant.

 

 

Now, for 1-on-1 MATCH play. It seems as though a consensus hasn't been reached (yet ?) but it looks to me like each player gets his/her strokes wherever they fall based on the male or female handicap stroke hole allocation on the card; then compare the net scores on each hole.

 

I would agree with those who believe the net score, not the relation to par, is then compared to determine who won that hole.

 

 

So how do you and your husband generally make out ? I would think for match play it'd be around 50% wins for each of you. Stroke play could be more variable but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

My head is spinning after reading all of these posts.  I think I understand this now: "As for who won, the low NET score wins. Relation to par is irrelevant."  (as you stated above)

 

Yes, I am in the US, northern Wisconsin in fact . . . where we still have snow on the ground and the courses aren't open. It's been a long winter. I haven't played since early November.

 

I've never been on the GHIN app; I use the WSGA app. Maybe I'll take a look at it.  

 

I will have to get out the scorecard and give this some thought:  "Now, for 1-on-1 MATCH play. It seems as though a consensus hasn't been reached (yet ?) but it looks to me like each player gets his/her strokes wherever they fall based on the male or female handicap stroke hole allocation on the card; then compare the net scores on each hole"  (as you stated above) .I've only played match play where you play off the lower handicap so only I would be getting strokes.

 

It was a lot simpler when I used to get a stroke a hole from my husband.  

 

You asked: "So how do you and your husband generally make out ? I would think for match play it'd be around 50% wins for each of you. Stroke play could be more variable but,,,,,,,,,,,,,"   You're right - we each win about half of the time in match play, which is what we tend to do. I prefer that to stroke play because I generally have a blow up hole.

[Miss_Tee]

27 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The CH calculation makes the "target score" for each player equal to par, so differences in Course Rating are taken care of at that level.  For competitions with different pars for players, the player whose "course" has the higher par gets extra strokes.  This is Rule 6.2b in the Handicapping Rules.  

Going back to the OP, Mister Tee plays to his handicap, shoots 80, net 70 (even par).  @Miss_Tee plays to her handicap, shoots 85, net 72 (also even par).  When they compete against each other, @Miss_Tee gets 2 additional strokes, the difference between her par and Mister Tee's par, so she gets 5 strokes from him.

 

Dang it. I just started to agree with nsxguy that the difference in par didn't matter, even though I want it to.  And now you see it the same way I did, right?

This is so confusing!

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, Miss_Tee said:

This is so confusing!

Just go read the Rule in question, Rule 6.2b here:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

Its a bit odd, you need to select Section III, and then go to Rule 6.  Once you're there, its easy, the only adjustment you need to make is for the difference in par between Men and Women.

Then go to Appendix C, where they recommend that your husband goes to Zero, and you get the difference, 5 strokes.  Or you can do as you say, each of you take your full handicap, strokes falling as per the Stroke Index for your respective tees, if they're different.  If you prefer to just use the 5 strokes, I believe they should be based on the Women's Stroke Indices, but I have not located anything that specifically says that.  This is the thing, there's no specific requirement in the Rules as to how to allocate strokes, only recommendations, so you really are free to use whatever method you choose.