Determining course handicaps

[Miss_Tee]

I apologize if this is not the correct sub-forum for this topic.

 

Our course recently rated the "men's" (white) tees for women's handicaps. I do not play from these tees; I play from the forward tees.

My husband and I like to bet on just about anything. We would like to have a bet when playing from the same tees, so I want to make sure I am calculating my handicap for the white tees correctly.

 

White tees for women - slope 137; CR 75.2; par 72

White tees for men - slope 127; CR 70.8; par 70  (two of the holes are par 3 for men and par 4 for women)

 

My index - 8.3; CH for white tees 13

His index - 8.1; CH for white tees 10

 

The way I see it I would get these strokes:

3 for the difference in our CH for the white tees

4 for the 4.4 difference in CR

2 for the difference in par

Total - 9 strokes.

 

So in match play I'd get a pop on 9 holes.

But suppose we did stroke play, do we each play off our own par?

He shoots 80 

I shoot 90

At first glance, he wins because I get 9 pops and he was 10 strokes better.

But his 80 is 10 over his par (70)

My 90 is 18 over my par (72)

A difference of 8 strokes; so do I win? Or is this "double-dipping" on the difference in pars?

 

 

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, Miss_Tee said:

I apologize if this is not the correct sub-forum for this topic.

 

Our course recently rated the "men's" (white) tees for women's handicaps. I do not play from these tees; I play from the forward tees.

My husband and I like to bet on just about anything. We would like to have a bet when playing from the same tees, so I want to make sure I am calculating my handicap for the white tees correctly.

 

White tees for women - slope 137; CR 75.2; par 72

White tees for men - slope 127; CR 70.8; par 70  (two of the holes are par 3 for men and par 4 for women)

 

My index - 8.3; CH for white tees 13

His index - 8.1; CH for white tees 10

 

The way I see it I would get these strokes:

3 for the difference in our CH for the white tees

4 for the 4.4 difference in CR

2 for the difference in par

Total - 9 strokes.

 

So in match play I'd get a pop on 9 holes.

But suppose we did stroke play, do we each play off our own par?

He shoots 80 

I shoot 90

At first glance, he wins because I get 9 pops and he was 10 strokes better.

But his 80 is 10 over his par (70)

My 90 is 18 over my par (72)

A difference of 8 strokes; so do I win? Or is this "double-dipping" on the difference in pars?

 

 

 

Oh, you're int he right place alright.

 

Ping @ThinkingPlus

 

TP is our resident VLH (very low handicap) female and expert in the lady's variation in handicapping. 👍

Edited April 14, 2022 by nsxguy

[Mudguard]

Your 90 is a net 77, his 80 is a net 70 so I'd say you'd lost that one.

Edit. If the handicaps are calculated correctly. It seems odd they would rate the whites for women but have different pars? Surely you'd play those par threes as par threes?

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mudguard

[Newby]

Tackle it in the way described in the manual.

Calculate your individual Course Handicaps.

 

CH = Index x (Slope / 113) + (CR -Par)

ie

You = 8.3 x 1.21 + 3.2 = 13

Him = 8.1 x 1.12 + 0.8 = 10

 

Adjust both for the Handicap Allowance (95% stroke play) (100% matchplay)

 

Adjust for the difference in CR. The higher gets the extra strokes. (75.2 - 70.8) = 4

 

The manual doesn't seem to comment on which hole par to use nor on which Stroke Indices to use (or I can't find it).

[Krt22]

The CH already factors in the CR and par for a given set of tees...why would there be additional strokes given for CR and par?

 

I thought one of the key points of the WHS was the how the CH calculation factors in CR, so competing from different rated tees was straight forward? 

[Mudguard]

9 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

The CH already factors in the CR and par for a given set of tees...why would there be additional strokes given for CR and par?

 

I thought one of the key points of the WHS was the how the CH calculation factors in CR, so competing from different rated tees was straight forward? 

Yeah seems like double dipping?

[NJBigFish22]

If your husband wants to avoid sleeping on the couch, he would give you the 9 strokes.

[DavePelz4]

27 minutes ago, Newby said:

Tackle it in the way described in the manual.

Calculate your individual Course Handicaps.

 

CH = Index x (Slope / 113) + (CR -Par)

ie

You = 8.3 x 1.21 + 3.2 = 13

Him = 8.1 x 1.12 + 0.8 = 10

 

Adjust both for the Handicap Allowance (95% stroke play) (100% matchplay)

 

Adjust for the difference in CR. The higher gets the extra strokes. (75.2 - 70.8) = 4

 

The manual doesn't seem to comment on which hole par to use nor on which Stroke Indices to use (or I can't find it).

 

The .96 adjustment was removed from the USGA formula years ago.

[davep043]

Section 6.2b  in the Handicapping Rules discusses how to treat things when you're playing to different par.  The CR, slope, and par for each of you is included it the CH calculation, at least in the US.  The remaining adjustment is related to the difference in par.  The player with the higher par would get additional strokes.

And to answer one of @Newby's questions, strokes are allocated based on the stroke indices for the higher handicappers tees.  I'll try to find that reference later.

[b.mattay]

No, he was net 70, you were net 77. He wins by 7. 

[ThinkingPlus]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

Your 90 is a net 77, his 80 is a net 70 so I'd say you'd lost that one.

Edit. If the handicaps are calculated correctly. It seems odd they would rate the whites for women but have different pars? Surely you'd play those par threes as par threes?

More than likely a couple of the women's par 5s are par 4s for the men.  Basically, any hole greater than ~400 yards will be designated a par 5 for women. 

 

In fact you can have even shorter holes designated par 5s for women.  I played a tournament this week where the 16th is a 348 yard par 5 for women.  It plays uphill into a quartering wind to a narrowish fairway lined with trees.  The kicker is the pond that starts 50 yards short of the green and extends to the green edge.  For most women it is a mandatory 3 shot hole hence par 5.  I hit it both days in 2 with 6-iron and 7-iron flighted down through the wind, but I'm better than most.

[Mudguard]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

More than likely a couple of the women's par 5s are par 4s for the men.  Basically, any hole greater than ~400 yards will be designated a par 5 for women. 

 

That's fair enough. My old home course had a par four that played uphill, strong players could nuke a driver all the way up the hill and hit wedge in, but if you misshit it you might have a five iron in. For women it was always a par five as their tee shots generally ploughed halfway up the slope. 

 

I think we had a weird situation in an ambrose when we had a female player, a par four was a par three for her but we needed her tee shot. I can't remember what other groups did with mixed teams

[ThinkingPlus]

35 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

That's fair enough. My old home course had a par four that played uphill, strong players could nuke a driver all the way up the hill and hit wedge in, but if you misshit it you might have a five iron in. For women it was always a par five as their tee shots generally ploughed halfway up the slope. 

 

I think we had a weird situation in an ambrose when we had a female player, a par four was a par three for her but we needed her tee shot. I can't remember what other groups did with mixed teams

The par 3/par 4 thing can sometimes happen on a par 4 with a long forced carry and no bailout.  They move the forward tees to the other side of the forced carry leaving a par 3 distance hole.  Those situations are very awkward for mixed events.  It also exemplifies designers including forward tees as an afterthought.

[Mudguard]

Just now, ThinkingPlus said:

The par 3/par 4 thing can sometimes happen on a par 4 with a long forced carry and no bailout.  They move the forward tees to the other side of the forced carry leaving a par 3 distance hole.  Those situations are very awkward for mixed events.  It also exemplifies designers including forward tees as an afterthought.

That's the exact nature of the hole. No thought for the shorter hitters. Before they turned into a par three for women, I'd seen women hit driver, then putt to the edge of the forced carry.

[Miss_Tee]

3 hours ago, Mudguard said:

Your 90 is a net 77, his 80 is a net 70 so I'd say you'd lost that one.

Edit. If the handicaps are calculated correctly. It seems odd they would rate the whites for women but have different pars? Surely you'd play those par threes as par threes?

Those two par threes are over 230 yards from the whites so they are par fours for women.  

[Mudguard]

15 minutes ago, Miss_Tee said:

Those two par threes are over 230 yards from the whites so they are par fours for women. 

Those are grunty par threes from a white tee full stop! 

[Miss_Tee]

3 hours ago, Krt22 said:

The CH already factors in the CR and par for a given set of tees...why would there be additional strokes given for CR and par?

 

I thought one of the key points of the WHS was the how the CH calculation factors in CR, so competing from different rated tees was straight forward? 

I can’t find where I saw that the different course ratings got me more strokes but this is why I think the difference in pars gets me two additional strokes. 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, Miss_Tee said:

I can’t find where I saw that the different course ratings got me more strokes but this is why I think the difference in pars gets me two additional strokes. 

You are correct. Before the WHS, you did adjust manually for the CR because the CH was based just on slope. Even though it now uses CR and par to calculate CH, it makes sense to adjust accordingly if par is different

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, NJBigFish22 said:

If your husband wants to avoid sleeping on the couch, he would give you the 9 strokes.

There is a couple I play with at my club, the wife is the hardcore (and better) golfer, she wouldn't take any extra strokes other than what is fair.  She also swears like a trucker, she would probably have some choice words for you lol

[Newby]

7 hours ago, DavePelz4 said:

 

The .96 adjustment was removed from the USGA formula years ago.

The old .96 is irrelevant. I was referring to Handicap Allowances.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, davep043 said:

1) Section 6.2b  in the Handicapping Rules discusses how to treat things when you're playing to different par.  The CR, slope, and par for each of you is included it the CH calculation, at least in the US.  The remaining adjustment is related to the difference in par.  The player with the higher par would get additional strokes.

 

2) And to answer one of @Newby's questions, strokes are allocated based on the stroke indices for the higher handicappers tees.  I'll try to find that reference later.

1) Yes, I was referring to the GB&I version where Par is not included in the CH calculation. So instead of Par being the comparative, CR is used.

 

2) That's what I thought but couldn't find it. I also thought that players used the hole par for their course.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Newby

[DavePelz4]

16 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

More than likely a couple of the women's par 5s are par 4s for the men.  Basically, any hole greater than ~400 yards will be designated a par 5 for women. 

 

In fact you can have even shorter holes designated par 5s for women.  I played a tournament this week where the 16th is a 348 yard par 5 for women.  It plays uphill into a quartering wind to a narrowish fairway lined with trees.  The kicker is the pond that starts 50 yards short of the green and extends to the green edge.  For most women it is a mandatory 3 shot hole hence par 5.  I hit it both days in 2 with 6-iron and 7-iron flighted down through the wind, but I'm better than most.

 

Are you married to Gary Koch?

[ThinkingPlus]

5 hours ago, DavePelz4 said:

 

Are you married to Gary Koch?

LOL! No, but it is a good line that I suspect we all borrow from time to time. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

So is the answer that she gets 5 strokes? 3 strokes for the difference in CH (13 vs 10) plus 2 strokes due to the difference in par?

 

One additional question... Let's say they wanted to play a hole-based competition (such as match play or skins)... Where does she get those strokes? Normally it'd be on the 5 hardest holes, but they might have different handicaps for men and women. 

 

For example, my "home" course has an opening 285 yard par 4, which is hdcp 11 for men and hdcp 3 for women. The final hole is a 225 yard par 3 for the men but it's a par 4 for women, and thus it's the hdcp 2 hole for the men as a long par 3 and hdcp 14 for the women as a very short par 4. Would she get a stroke on #1 or on #18? 

[DavePelz4]

58 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

LOL! No, but it is a good line that I suspect we all borrow from time to time. 

 

That's probably what you say to Mr. Plus when he asks if you're a good wife.

[Miss_Tee]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So is the answer that she gets 5 strokes? 3 strokes for the difference in CH (13 vs 10) plus 2 strokes due to the difference in par?

 

One additional question... Let's say they wanted to play a hole-based competition (such as match play or skins)... Where does she get those strokes? Normally it'd be on the 5 hardest holes, but they might have different handicaps for men and women. 

 

For example, my "home" course has an opening 285 yard par 4, which is hdcp 11 for men and hdcp 3 for women. The final hole is a 225 yard par 3 for the men but it's a par 4 for women, and thus it's the hdcp 2 hole for the men as a long par 3 and hdcp 14 for the women as a very short par 4. Would she get a stroke on #1 or on #18? 

OP here. I’m anxious to hear responses to this as I wondered the same thing.
 

Re match play that would be exactly the case at my course.  The 230+ yard par 3 (for him) is much more difficult for him than it is for me playing it as a par 4.  
 

Since I’m getting the strokes I assume we use the women’s handicap rating to decide which holes I get strokes on. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Miss_Tee
Added last sentence

[Newby]

4 hours ago, Miss_Tee said:

OP here. I’m anxious to hear responses to this as I wondered the same thing.
 

Re match play that would be exactly the case at my course.  The 230+ yard par 3 (for him) is much more difficult for him than it is for me playing it as a par 4.  
 

Since I’m getting the strokes I assume we use the women’s handicap rating to decide which holes I get strokes on. 

What do you mean by 'women’s handicap rating'?

When you say 'we'  do you mean both you and your husband

or

women in general use 'women’s handicap rating' and men use 'men’s handicap rating'

[Miss_Tee]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

What do you mean by 'women’s handicap rating'?

When you say 'we'  do you mean both you and your husband

or

women in general use 'women’s handicap rating' and men use 'men’s handicap rating'

i was referring to when my husband and I play match play against each other. I’m getting strokes from him, so I use the women's handicap rating to determine which holes I get the strokes on. The holes rated most difficult for women are different from the ones rated most difficult for men. 

[Newby]

15 minutes ago, Miss_Tee said:

i was referring to when my husband and I play match play against each other. I’m getting strokes from him, so I use the women's handicap rating to determine which holes I get the strokes on. The holes rated most difficult for women are different from the ones rated most difficult for men. 

I think you mean Course Handicap (or more specifically Playing Handicap)?

There is no such animal as a "handicap rating".

Edited April 16, 2022 by Newby

[Seamus_McDuff]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

I think you mean Course Handicap (or more specifically Playing Handicap)?

There is no such animal as a "handicap rating".

She’s talking about which holes she gets shots on in match play. 
 

Example,

 

They both play white tees and she gets 5 shots. 
For women the 8th hole is the #1 handicap but for men it’s #6. Does she get one of her 5 shots on the 8th hole?
 

I believe it’s “yes” because as @davep043 wrote earlier, “strokes are allocated based on the stroke indices for the higher handicappers tees”