Do all pros use the bounce when chipping?

[EastTNGolfer]

18 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You simply cannot "thump the trailing edge against the ground" unless you engage the turf prior to the ball because the leading edge is in front of the trailing edge and if your low point is in front of the ball you would skull it because the leading edge would strike the ball above the equator of the ball before the trailing edge got to the ground. 

When you use your finesse wedge shot (35ish and in) the low point is still in front of the ball. You engage the bounce as you hit the ball, the bounce is still exposed and you want it to be in case you do catch it a little fat. From Seickmann "Using the bounce of the club produces minimal ground interference (no divot necessary in a finesse swing), which allows you to swing down into the turf without concern. Even if you accidently hit a little behind the ball, it will still go up in the air and end up next to the hole, increasing your margin of error and decreasing your stress level."

 

See the last drill here....

 

 

18 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Surely not a footlong divot...on a partial wedge shot you can't engage the bounce of the club unless you are over clubbed on that given shot so if you only hit a 60 degree wedge 60 yards max then you can't engage the bounce on that club, but you could on a 56 or a 52 degree wedge which would require much less speed to execute and you could/should engage the bounce to hit the shot so you shouldn't be taking some massive divot even if you are flighting the shot down.  

 

You do not engage the bounce on the distance wedge shot (35ish and out). If you do not deloft the club you will hit a very poor shot.

Seickmann explains the shot here...

 

[GolfTurkey]

I think there has been conflation between low point and point of first contact with the ground in this thread. 

 

Think of divots, they can be long. Low point will be roughly in the middle of the divot, which can be a long way in front of the start of the divot.

 

It's quite possible to touch the ground before the ball and have low point after the ball. If the actual low point is before the ball, then you would be hitting the ball on the upstroke i.e. with a positive AoA, which nobody decent teaches or does except with driver.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:18 AM, EastTNGolfer said:

Seikmann actually has a pretty popular drill where you put a penny a couple inches in front of the ball on finesse chips and you hit that penny because that's the actual low point in front of the ball, you're just using a shallow angle of attack. your low point is not behind the ball and you're not intentionally trying to hit it fat.

I never said that the shot isn't hit with a negative AoA because no shot hit off the ground should be struck with a positive AoA or the low point being behind the ball...ever.  You are failing to understand that there is no need to try and "shallow" your AoA either because THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF BOUNCE AND OR SOLE WIDTH ON THE CLUB!! You absolutely should not be tryin to strike a wedge shot with a -1, -2, or -3 degree of AoA because these shots would hinge on the verge of disaster because of the shaft length on a wedge forcing a more vertical swing plane so you should not be trying to "pick" or "sweep" a wedge shot or any shot for that matter as the design of the club will determine the proper AoA for that club. Your job is to get your low point in the the proper location in relation to the ball and the club will take care of the rest.  The low point orientation is the exact same for all clubs being hit off the ground but the build/design of the club determines the dynamics of impact but most don't realize this and believe that hitting a fairway wood and a wedge off the ground are different but they are not and the low point orientation is the exact same for both but the build of the club makes wedges look like they are "back" in the stance while it makes fairway woods look "forward" in the stance when the relation to low point is the exact same. If you are exposing the bounce of the club then you need to engage the turf prior to the ball because to get the leading edge below the equator of the ball so that you don't skull the shot.  A skulled shot can occur if the low point is behind the ball and the leading edge begins to rise off the ground or if the low point is in the correct orientation in front of the ball and the leading edge strikes the ball above the equator on the way down as the trailing edge is making its way to low point.  This is why a wedge with bounce engaged should have planned into the shot engaging the turf just prior to striking the ball to ensure the leading edge gets below the equator of the ball.  

 

On 8/6/2022 at 2:24 AM, Barfolomew said:

Its just strange to play a shot....... in case you hit it fat.... in case you make an error

 

100% agree if you have issues catchin it clean then play the bounce as much as you can if it helps... everyone plays at different levels and different skills at golf

 

But for players that have good hands and keep their chippin skills polished up, then dont plan on missin the shot and hit the shot needed..... just like every other shot we make.

 

You think its simple for a bomber to smash a drive down a tight fairway..... no its a right of passage that they have earned through missin a ton first but can now play that shot 

 

Chippin is way easier then many shots we play.  🐈

 

Chippin is not a Cop Out for those it helps... Its a Cop Out for you lazy folks with good hands that dont wanna practice lol 🦃

So you pick your bunker shots cleanly in that case right? I mean why would you use the design of the club as it was intended and hit the shot fat on purpose when you can pick it cleanly? No, you plan for and try to predict how the sand will affect a given shot and hitting a shot using the bounce is no different.  

Edited August 7, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[Righty to Lefty]

On 8/6/2022 at 4:25 AM, EastTNGolfer said:

New account with one post. Totally not another righty to letfty account. It's all legit guys.

Are you suggesting that I have multiple accounts and respond to my own posts?! I'm flattered!! 

 

[EastTNGolfer]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I never said that the shot isn't hit with a negative AoA because no shot hit off the ground should be struck with a positive AoA or the low point being behind the ball...ever.  You are failing to understand that there is no need to try and "shallow" your AoA either because THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF BOUNCE AND OR SOLE WIDTH ON THE CLUB!! You absolutely should not be tryin to strike a wedge shot with a -1, -2, or -3 degree of AoA because these shots would hinge on the verge of disaster because of the shaft length on a wedge forcing a more vertical swing plane so you should not be trying to "pick" or "sweep" a wedge shot or any shot for that matter as the design of the club will determine the proper AoA for that club. Your job is to get your low point in the the proper location in relation to the ball and the club will take care of the rest.  The low point orientation is the exact same for all clubs being hit off the ground but the build/design of the club determines the dynamics of impact but most don't realize this and believe that hitting a fairway wood and a wedge off the ground are different but they are not and the low point orientation is the exact same for both but the build of the club makes wedges look like they are "back" in the stance while it makes fairway woods look "forward" in the stance when the relation to low point is the exact same. If you are exposing the bounce of the club then you need to engage the turf prior to the ball because to get the leading edge below the equator of the ball so that you don't skull the shot.  A skulled shot can occur if the low point is behind the ball and the leading edge begins to rise off the ground or if the low point is in the correct orientation in front of the ball and the leading edge strikes the ball above the equator on the way down as the trailing edge is making its way to low point.  This is why a wedge with bounce engaged should have planned into the shot engaging the turf just prior to striking the ball to ensure the leading edge gets below the equator of the ball.  

 

So you pick your bunker shots cleanly in that case right? I mean why would you use the design of the club as it was intended and hit the shot fat on purpose when you can pick it cleanly? No, you plan for and try to predict how the sand will affect a given shot and hitting a shot using the bounce is no different.  

You said the low point should not be in front of the ball on finesse wedges. This is simply not true. You're arguing against James Seickmann who has met, talked with, and studied the greats like Seve. Why should any member here follow the advice of a random poster over him? Frankly, you don't really seem to know what you are talking about at all.

[Righty to Lefty]

16 minutes ago, EastTNGolfer said:

You said the low point should not be in front of the ball on finesse wedges. This is simply not true. You're arguing against James Seickmann who has met, talked with, and studied the greats like Seve. Why should any member here follow the advice of a random poster over him? Frankly, you don't really seem to know what you are talking about at all.

Are you serious?  Please show me where I stated that a wedge shot, or any shot hit off the ground for that matter is stuck with the low point of the swing arc behind the ball because I have never said that. Also your claim that I set up a fake account to reply to my own post is even more ridiculous.  

Edited August 7, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[EastTNGolfer]

32 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Are you serious?  Please show me where I stated that a wedge shot, or any shot hit off the ground for that matter is stuck with the low point of the swing arc behind the ball because I have never said that. Also your claim that I set up a fake account to reply to my own post is even more ridiculous.  

 

You said "if your low point is in front of the ball you would skull it because the leading edge would strike the ball above the equator of the ball before the trailing edge got to the ground."

 

The low point on finesse and distance wedges is absolutely in front of the ball.

[Righty to Lefty]

23 minutes ago, EastTNGolfer said:

 

You said "if your low point is in front of the ball you would skull it because the leading edge would strike the ball above the equator of the ball before the trailing edge got to the ground."

 

The low point on finesse and distance wedges is absolutely in front of the ball.

The low point on all shots hit off the ground is in front of the ball and you should go back and reread what I wrote in its entirety.  Better yet I'll quote myself for clarity: 

 

"You simply cannot "thump the trailing edge against the ground" unless you engage the turf prior to the ball because the leading edge is in front of the trailing edge and if your low point is in front of the ball you would skull it because the leading edge would strike the ball above the equator of the ball before the trailing edge got to the ground. "

 

This diagram even shows it the best for visual reference: 

Diagram Source: https://www.adamyounggolf.com/angle-attack-golf/

The above would be the impact conditions for a shot that is stuck ball first but this would not work for a shot with the bounce engaged. Why? Because with the bounce engaged if you try to strike ball at the point just below the ball with the trailing edge then for that to happen the leading edge would strike the ball prior to while the club is moving downward  towards low point and the shot would be skulled. This diagram shows that for you to put the leading edge onto that point just below the ball that the trailing edge would have to engage the turf and make ground contact just prior to the ball because the trailing edge always sits below the leading edge. 

 

 

Diagram Source: https://www.adamyounggolf.com/angle-attack-golf/

This diagram would be more of a bunker shot representation but if you shift the ground contact point closer to the ball to just before it half inch to one inch, and the low point the same amount away from the ball, it will represent a partial wedge shot with the bounce engaged where you engage the turf just prior to the ball, the club will skid along the ground  bruising the turf instead of digging down towards low point, and you will also get the leading edge below the equator of the ball, all required to strike the shot properly with the bounce engaged. This is exactly what Roger Cleveland was  talking about when he mentioned in the video the swimmer dives under the lane marker in that the club would enter the water just prior to the lane marker and slide underneath it and come out the other side into the next lane over. This is also why he referred to the shots as "mini bunker shots."   

[EastTNGolfer]

9 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The low point on all shots hit off the ground is in front of the ball and you should go back and reread what I wrote in its entirety.  Better yet I'll quote myself for clarity: 

 

"You simply cannot "thump the trailing edge against the ground" unless you engage the turf prior to the ball because the leading edge is in front of the trailing edge and if your low point is in front of the ball you would skull it because the leading edge would strike the ball above the equator of the ball before the trailing edge got to the ground. "

 

This diagram even shows it the best for visual reference: 

Diagram Source: https://www.adamyounggolf.com/angle-attack-golf/

The above would be the impact conditions for a shot that is stuck ball first but this would not work for a shot with the bounce engaged. Why? Because with the bounce engaged if you try to strike ball at the point just below the ball with the trailing edge then for that to happen the leading edge would strike the ball prior to while the club is moving downward  towards low point and the shot would be skulled. This diagram shows that for you to put the leading edge onto that point just below the ball that the trailing edge would have to engage the turf and make ground contact just prior to the ball because the trailing edge always sits below the leading edge. 

 

 

Diagram Source: https://www.adamyounggolf.com/angle-attack-golf/

This diagram would be more of a bunker shot representation but if you shift the ground contact point closer to the ball to just before it half inch to one inch, and the low point the same amount away from the ball, it will represent a partial wedge shot with the bounce engaged where you engage the turf just prior to the ball, the club will skid along the ground  bruising the turf instead of digging down towards low point, and you will also get the leading edge below the equator of the ball, all required to strike the shot properly with the bounce engaged. This is exactly what Roger Cleveland was  talking about when he mentioned in the video the swimmer dives under the lane marker in that the club would enter the water just prior to the lane marker and slide underneath it and come out the other side into the next lane over. This is also why he referred to the shots as "mini bunker shots."   

Again go back and look at the Seickmann videos that I linked. You are simply wrong. Absolutely 100% dead wrong.

[Righty to Lefty]

1 hour ago, EastTNGolfer said:

Again go back and look at the Seickmann videos that I linked. You are simply wrong. Absolutely 100% dead wrong.

Cool...time will tell as others go out and test, verify, and report back their findings. 

[EastTNGolfer]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Cool...time will tell as others go out and test, verify, and report back their findings. 

I get the sneaking suspicion you haven't even bothered to read or watch any of the videos I have posted.

[Righty to Lefty]

21 hours ago, EastTNGolfer said:

I get the sneaking suspicion you haven't even bothered to read or watch any of the videos I have posted.

I did watch them...I was simply waiting for someone else to watch them and comment on them and note that he is doing exactly what I have been describing this whole time and engaging the turf prior to striking the ball because I didn't want it to come from me.  You can clearly see the club engage the turf prior to him hitting  the ball in every single slo mo shot and it is further proven because if you freeze the shot right as the club is hitting the ball you can see grass shooting up the back of the club proving that it engaged the turf prior to striking the ball. This same technique can be employed on shots that are further away as they are no different in that you can be well over clubbed for the shot which will allow you to engage the bounce and hit this same type of shot from further away. A "finesse wedge" doesn't have to be from 35 yards and in if I hit a 52 degree 135 yards it doesn't take much effort to hit that club 70, 80, 90, or even 100 yards and you don't have to rip up the earth to do it and I also clearly showed that you can engage the bounce with your low point still being located in front of the ball so you can easily engage the turf properly with the bounce and still sweep the penny off the ground.  Those yardages would still be "finesse wedges" for me and the bounce of the club could still be used.  

 

The pelvic tilt drills video isn't speaking to the bounce and is a technique video and once again I will say that if you are ripping up the turf from inside 100 yards you are under clubbed and should go up a club unless you are hitting a full shot in a specialty situation and forced to.  You also had a sneaking suspicion that I have multiple accounts to respond to my own posts and you were wrong on that notion also. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[Barfolomew]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:37 PM, Righty to Lefty said:

So you pick your bunker shots cleanly in that case right? I mean why would you use the design of the club as it was intended and hit the shot fat on purpose when you can pick it cleanly? No, you plan for and try to predict how the sand will affect a given shot and hitting a shot using the bounce is no different.  

 

Wow you really had to work hard and dig deep to find anything to sound smart..... sand.... you talkin bout sand.... when we talkin chippin.... you lost, sand talk in some other thread or something 🌵🐫

[Righty to Lefty]

10 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

 

Wow you really had to work hard and dig deep to find anything to sound smart..... sand.... you talkin bout sand.... when we talkin chippin.... you lost, sand talk in some other thread or something 🌵🐫

What you are failing to understand is that I am not trying to sound smart...these facts are in plain sight and I am using my experiences and observations to combine them with the facts.  I find it ironic that others want to talk about my "credentials" to try and discredit a given post yet when Roger Cleveland, the very designer of the equipment that we are talking about in this thread, who has the utmost "credentials" is quoted as saying that the shots are a "mini bunker shot" you and others then go on to try and ignore that and resort to personal attacks which is and obvious sign of you are not certain of what you are talking about because I can't possibly be knowledgeable because I am 5 handicap, yet the expert can't even be an expert because he stated that the most optimal way to use his equipment design isn't the way that you play it so you ignore his advice also....maybe he was just trying to sound smart.  

 

 

[homerrunjesus]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:38 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

If we’re going to say that about things that improve margin of error and make things easier….I offer.

 

Teeing up driver….cop out

Range finder……cop out

pin sheet…..cop out

properly fit clubs…..cop out

launch monitors, pressure mats, 3D sensors…..cop out

golf shoes….cop out

Metal heads….cop out 

 

 

shots fired

[Valtiel]

51 minutes ago, BamaTown said:

I was dave458 a few days ago, now BamaRama, and have been several before.

So you keep losing passwords, or? 😅

[Righty to Lefty]

2 hours ago, BamaTown said:

 

Well your analyzing skills fall a little short there @EastTNGolfer,  I was dave458 a few days ago, now BamaRama, and have been several before.      And RTL is doing just fine, he even posted a video in support, how about you and Krt22 instead of jacking your jaws post videos showing how Righty to Lefty is out to lunch.  You and Krt22 may be correct, maybe not, but at least the other guy had the guts to put his chipping swing out there.  So far I like his video a little more than yours....lol.  

 

How about it @Krt22, how about posting your personal chipping video to enhance this discussion thread, or do you what you always do, run to mommy moderator. 

I appreciate the response but please understand that I don't want the forums to become disrespectful as that will distract from pushing things forward constructively. I made that video years ago when I noticed that a former touring pro that I got to play with a lot do it. At first I thought he was just striking it bad but he never reacted like he didn't intend to do it. I later found out that he was doing it on purpose and he generated a ton of spin while doing it and could make the ball hit, stick and stop from ten feet away. I then just videoed myself hitting the shot so that I could refer back should I struggle with those types of shots in the future and I notice that a lot of what I was dealing with and making videos of back when I switched over from right to lefty often come up in the threads .  I in no way think that I am some golf god as much of the info that I put out is in plain sight but often overlooked details and I am just trying to make light of it and I always post the source to give credit.  I am also not even close to the best golfer in this forum but switching over to lefty taught me a ton about this game as did all my engineering classes about the math of the game and my exercise science classes did about the athlete side of things and I used both to greatly steepen my learning curve and I want to also be the test subject and improve my own game and that is why I am not fearful to post a video of myself going through the improvement process. 

 

I love and study this game wayyy more than most and I understand that a lot of what I post may not be "mainstream" knowledge yet but I know that I am operating around the facts and that they will stand up. If I get something wrong I am more than happy to be corrected and push things forward as that benefits all involved in the discussion. I used to take things personal and it would often divert the conversation and distract others and I don't want that to happen so I tend to just continue to push forward when people become disrespectful because I look at golf from a mathematical perspective and an athletic one and only speak from the math side because those parameters are the same for everyone, everyday, forever while the athletic perspective is subject to interpretation so long as you arrive to impact on time in relation to your intentions.  I always encourage people to go out and test, retest, and report back their findings on anything that I post and I will always respond back as I welcome it and being questioned makes me continually examine and re-examine just as a scientist would do.  That being said...use the bounce on your partial wedge shots!! R to L. 

[Barfolomew]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:54 PM, Righty to Lefty said:

What you are failing to understand is that I am not trying to sound smart...these facts are in plain sight and I am using my experiences and observations to combine them with the facts.  I find it ironic that others want to talk about my "credentials" to try and discredit a given post yet when Roger Cleveland, the very designer of the equipment that we are talking about in this thread, who has the utmost "credentials" is quoted as saying that the shots are a "mini bunker shot" you and others then go on to try and ignore that and resort to personal attacks which is and obvious sign of you are not certain of what you are talking about because I can't possibly be knowledgeable because I am 5 handicap, yet the expert can't even be an expert because he stated that the most optimal way to use his equipment design isn't the way that you play it so you ignore his advice also....maybe he was just trying to sound smart.  

 

 

 

Just cause Roger designed a club a certain way to suit his style of play don't mean jack squat to anyone else.... 🦖

 

Maybe old Roger wasn't good enough to not play the bounce.  Even Roger's clubs come with different amounts of bounce for different styles of play.  I always get the Lob wedge with the least amount of bounce.  I used to even grind them off to make flops easier on tight lies.

 

Spieth don't purposely play the bounce but prefers to play the face to ball...... does that make him wrong.

 

 

 

 

[MountainKing]

On 7/31/2022 at 5:32 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

I cringe when I see a pro rip up  a beaver pelt sized divot on a 60 yard wedge shot because whoever fit them for those clubs should be ashamed of themselves. 

 

That's the most important thing you've said in this thread.  This statement alone discredits anything else you've said after.  The best players in the world, fit by the best fitters in the world, are somehow wrong?  Almost every person I know that is a single digit or better, including a friend who plays on the tour, is taking a beaver sized divit from 60 yards.  Their incorrect technique somehow would destroy your career day using what you think is the correct technique. 

[Righty to Lefty]

11 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

 

Just cause Roger designed a club a certain way to suit his style of play don't mean jack squat to anyone else.... 🦖

 

Maybe old Roger wasn't good enough to not play the bounce.  Even Roger's clubs come with different amounts of bounce for different styles of play.  I always get the Lob wedge with the least amount of bounce.  I used to even grind them off to make flops easier on tight lies.

 

Spieth don't purposely play the bounce but prefers to play the face to ball...... does that make him wrong.

 

 

 

 

Never said that it was wrong...I said that it isn't the most efficient way to play partial wedge shots and regardless of what your opinion is that fact didn't change. I said that if that is how you choose to play the shot knowing that there is a more efficient way that is fine.  Most PGA pros also have a negative AoA with driver...but we all know that it isn't the most efficient way to hit driver...but that is the way they feel most comfortable and that isn't wrong, because it is their choice but it definitely isn't something that most amateur golfers should do and using the bounce that was designed into the club is no different.

 

Great I'm glad that you grind bounce off to play a flop shot from a tight lie but that doesn't mean that you are playing the shot the most effective way.  Once again your lack of knowledge on the subject led you to a personal attack on the engineer that designed the club. Pros have hit millions of golf shots and strike the ball clean on most every shot they hit, while amateurs do not, thus the majority should not be modeling their golf game after a pros, yet the masses always do just that.  

 

This is not what you should be copying average amateur golfer...there are many more efficient ways: 

 

7 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

That's the most important thing you've said in this thread.  This statement alone discredits anything else you've said after.  The best players in the world, fit by the best fitters in the world, are somehow wrong?  Almost every person I know that is a single digit or better, including a friend who plays on the tour, is taking a beaver sized divit from 60 yards.  Their incorrect technique somehow would destroy your career day using what you think is the correct technique. 

The best players in the world are often very stubborn to change and often don't even know or care about the specs of their clubs so long as it feels good and inline with how "they grew up playing."  They fall for the same pitfalls that we do and that most believe that bounce makes the club less forgiving while we all know that it is the opposite that is true.  Once again if you are ripping up a foot long divot from 60 yards your wedge is ill fit and that is a fact. Now if that is what you prefer...fine...but that is an ill fit wedge...period and the player's technique is less efficient than it could be but it is their choice. It requires hardly any speed to hit even a 60 wedge 60 yards and it requires even less if you use a 56 or 52 degree to hit the shot and there is no reason to need to rip up a foot long divot and my non pro self showed just how easy it is and my wedges have triple the bounce of most wedges and have a wide sole to boot.  Bounce is your friend people! R to L. 

[swh0507]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Never said that it was wrong...I said that it isn't the most efficient way to play partial wedge shots and regardless of what your opinion is that fact didn't change. I said that if that is how you choose to play the shot knowing that there is a more efficient way that is fine.  Most PGA pros also have a negative AoA with driver...but we all know that it isn't the most efficient way to hit driver...but that is the way they feel most comfortable and that isn't wrong, because it is their choice but it definitely isn't something that most amateur golfers should do and using the bounce that was designed into the club is no different.

 

Great I'm glad that you grind bounce off to play a flop shot from a tight lie but that doesn't mean that you are playing the shot the most effective way.  Once again your lack of knowledge on the subject led you to a personal attack on the engineer that designed the club. Pros have hit millions of golf shots and strike the ball clean on most every shot they hit, while amateurs do not, thus the majority should not be modeling their golf game after a pros, yet the masses always do just that.  

 

This is not what you should be copying average amateur golfer...there are many more efficient ways: 

 

The best players in the world are often very stubborn to change and often don't even know or care about the specs of their clubs so long as it feels good and inline with how "they grew up playing."  They fall for the same pitfalls that we do and that most believe that bounce makes the club less forgiving while we all know that it is the opposite that is true.  Once again if you are ripping up a foot long divot from 60 yards your wedge is ill fit and that is a fact. Now if that is what you prefer...fine...but that is an ill fit wedge...period and the player's technique is less efficient than it could be but it is their choice. It requires hardly any speed to hit even a 60 wedge 60 yards and it requires even less if you use a 56 or 52 degree to hit the shot and there is no reason to need to rip up a foot long divot and my non pro self showed just how easy it is and my wedges have triple the bounce of most wedges and have a wide sole to boot.  Bounce is your friend people! R to L. 

This "discussion" is very funny to me, as you both are right and you both are wrong. The video is a great example. You are wrong in assuming that is Jordan's ONLY technique.  Jordan is practicing a specific shot (2 hop stop). I know the mini tour guys in Florida use the crap out of that shot because of the bermuda grab etc. Basically a hinge and turn. That being said, Jordan, chunks one around 20 seconds! To me, that validates that it is not the EASIEST or safest method. 

 

 

17 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

 

Just cause Roger designed a club a certain way to suit his style of play don't mean jack squat to anyone else.... 🦖

 

Maybe old Roger wasn't good enough to not play the bounce.  Even Roger's clubs come with different amounts of bounce for different styles of play.  I always get the Lob wedge with the least amount of bounce.  I used to even grind them off to make flops easier on tight lies.

 

Spieth don't purposely play the bounce but prefers to play the face to ball...... does that make him wrong.

 

 

 

 

As for LOW bounce, pick everything clean blah blah. Bounce needed for each player is an aspect of fitting and an individuals swing etc.. Saying someone who uses or fits into a higher bounce wedge, is unskilled or even less skilled, is like saying someone who plays a 10.5 driver is less skilled than someone playing an 8 degree driver. 

 

Also, the conditions you play in determine your bounce needed. No one at my course uses wedges with less than 8 degree of bounce including the plus guys. Several of our fairways are so soft, good luck with that shaved lob wedge. 

[MountainKing]

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Never said that it was wrong...I said that it isn't the most efficient way to play partial wedge shots and regardless of what your opinion is that fact didn't change. I said that if that is how you choose to play the shot knowing that there is a more efficient way that is fine.  Most PGA pros also have a negative AoA with driver...but we all know that it isn't the most efficient way to hit driver...but that is the way they feel most comfortable and that isn't wrong, because it is their choice but it definitely isn't something that most amateur golfers should do and using the bounce that was designed into the club is no different.

 

Great I'm glad that you grind bounce off to play a flop shot from a tight lie but that doesn't mean that you are playing the shot the most effective way.  Once again your lack of knowledge on the subject led you to a personal attack on the engineer that designed the club. Pros have hit millions of golf shots and strike the ball clean on most every shot they hit, while amateurs do not, thus the majority should not be modeling their golf game after a pros, yet the masses always do just that.  

 

This is not what you should be copying average amateur golfer...there are many more efficient ways: 

 

The best players in the world are often very stubborn to change and often don't even know or care about the specs of their clubs so long as it feels good and inline with how "they grew up playing."  They fall for the same pitfalls that we do and that most believe that bounce makes the club less forgiving while we all know that it is the opposite that is true.  Once again if you are ripping up a foot long divot from 60 yards your wedge is ill fit and that is a fact. Now if that is what you prefer...fine...but that is an ill fit wedge...period and the player's technique is less efficient than it could be but it is their choice. It requires hardly any speed to hit even a 60 wedge 60 yards and it requires even less if you use a 56 or 52 degree to hit the shot and there is no reason to need to rip up a foot long divot and my non pro self showed just how easy it is and my wedges have triple the bounce of most wedges and have a wide sole to boot.  Bounce is your friend people! R to L. 

 

You can't be serious.   I guess I'd rather be wrong making millions playing. than being 5 handicap who is right on an internet forum.  

[Righty to Lefty]

28 minutes ago, swh0507 said:

This "discussion" is very funny to me, as you both are right and you both are wrong. The video is a great example. You are wrong in assuming that is Jordan's ONLY technique.  Jordan is practicing a specific shot (2 hop stop). I know the mini tour guys in Florida use the crap out of that shot because of the bermuda grab etc. Basically a hinge and turn. That being said, Jordan, chunks one around 20 seconds! To me, that validates that it is not the EASIEST or safest method. 

 

 

As for LOW bounce, pick everything clean blah blah. Bounce needed for each player is an aspect of fitting and an individuals swing etc.. Saying someone who uses or fits into a higher bounce wedge, is unskilled or even less skilled, is like saying someone who plays a 10.5 driver is less skilled than someone playing an 8 degree driver. 

 

Also, the conditions you play in determine your bounce needed. No one at my course uses wedges with less than 8 degree of bounce including the plus guys. Several of our fairways are so soft, good luck with that shaved lob wedge. 

I 100% agree...I NEVER said that Spieth was wrong for playing the shot the way he wants to. I said that he isn't playing it in the most most efficient way just like when a pro decides that they are going to hit down on driver and sacrifice yardage. That is their choice but that doesn't mean that it is the most efficient. I also never said that was his only technique. I said that others of lesser skill levels should not be modeling their game after a touring pros even though we all aspire to strike it like they do.  I agree with your post and never said that a given technique is wrong...I said that there is a given technique that is most efficient and there is a reason that bounce is designed into a club and if you are intending to strike the ball with the leading edge then you are negating or eliminating the benefit of it and us amateurs need all the help we can get is my point.  

[Righty to Lefty]

28 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

You can't be serious.   I guess I'd rather be wrong making millions playing. than being 5 handicap who is right on an internet forum.  

Once again...I NEVER SAID HE IS WRONG...I said his technique is not the most efficient way and I stand by that notion.  Here we go again with the personal attacks again...just because he is a tour pro and I'm a 5 handicap means he correct huh? 

 

So I guess Faldo was right in his interpretation of the ball flight laws: 

 

Of course no...but he's a pro though and he's won 6 majors so he is for sure right? Do you know how many people information like this coming from a source like him were led astray because they believed what he was saying was fact even though he was dead wrong.  I mean but he's a pro though. 

[CSagan]

We're gonna have to finish this like gentlemen.

 

 

PUSH UP CONTEST!

[MountainKing]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Once again...I NEVER SAID HE IS WRONG...I said his technique is not the most efficient way and I stand by that notion.  Here we go again with the personal attacks again...just because he is a tour pro and I'm a 5 handicap means he correct huh? 

 

So I guess Faldo was right in his interpretation of the ball flight laws: 

 

Of course no...but he's a pro though and he's won 6 majors so he is for sure right? Do you know how many people information like this coming from a source like him were led astray because they believed what he was saying was fact even though he was dead wrong.  I mean but he's a pro though. 

 

 

When the worlds best players, who make a living doing this, are all consistently doing something, I would say it's probably the best way to do it.  It doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, but it is probably the best way to do it.  You can hit a golf ball with a coming over the top move and early extension, but when you have 99% of the best players in the world not doing it that way, it's clearly the wrong way to swing.  It's also a joke to say the fitters are wrong in fitting them, these guys are fit by worldclass fitters. 

 

Faldo's statement on what he feels and him describing that, has nothing to do with ball flight laws.  A lot of tour pro's can't explain correctly how they're actually doing something because real isn't always feel.  What he is actually doing to make the ball move however, is correct.  You're on two seperate issues now.  

 

[Chazb]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:22 PM, otto6457 said:

I had forgotten about this technique.  Back in the late 80"s I went to a golf clinic taught by Bill Moretti down in Austin,TX.   He used a 2 X 4 with a cup of sand on it it teach bunker play.  I got pretty good hitting wide open wedges off of a 2 X 4.

 

Good times.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled forum posts

Not to hijack the thread but Bill Moretti is a name from the past who grew up in St.louis county and he was a good player in the area in the seventies.

[Righty to Lefty]

13 hours ago, MountainKing said:

 

 

When the worlds best players, who make a living doing this, are all consistently doing something, I would say it's probably the best way to do it.  It doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, but it is probably the best way to do it.  You can hit a golf ball with a coming over the top move and early extension, but when you have 99% of the best players in the world not doing it that way, it's clearly the wrong way to swing.  It's also a joke to say the fitters are wrong in fitting them, these guys are fit by worldclass fitters. 

 

Faldo's statement on what he feels and him describing that, has nothing to do with ball flight laws.  A lot of tour pro's can't explain correctly how they're actually doing something because real isn't always feel.  What he is actually doing to make the ball move however, is correct.  You're on two seperate issues now.  

 

So the worlds best players consistently hit down on driver knowingly giving up performance, so that is the best way to do it?  Why don't the LPGA pros hit down on driver then? I mean it's the best way to do it after all.  Oh because the males knowingly give away performance because they "can get away with it" while the LPGA pros simply cannot afford to sacrifice the yardage because they don't have swing speed to spare. 

 

How hard is it when a pro tells you what they want and you give it to em. How many pros you think go into a fitting and say that they don't care what they play just give them the best performance...none of them? A grip, shaft and club head fitting is hardly world class I'm sorry to say. Handing a pro different clubs until one works is not rocket science I'm sorry and a fitter is not some mythical creature that is doing something that no one else can so lets be real.  I fit my clubs for total weight and swing weight with every club in my bag and these factors are mostly never mentioned in a fitting besides +/- 10 grams in shaft weight.  Call any OEM and tell them you want an extra 30 grams on your club heads to create your desired swing weight and see how far you get. The only golfer that is really putting the engineers through "hell" is Dechambeau while the rest are pretty much playing tweaked off the rack gear so lets keep it real.

 

Now you are just grasping at anything because you know you are incorrect as the only thing mentioned in Faldo's post that is even remotely "feel" related is the rotate the arms part and it is still false in regards to being necessary to hit a draw. Yet you brush it off as if an amateur golfer that is new to the game and hanging onto his every word, because he is a six time major winner so he must be right, is going to be able extrapolate that not only is everything he said false, but that isn't what he actually meant and that is what he "feels." I was one of those golfers that quickly ran to the range with this exact information believing it to be true only to find out later that all of it was incorrect.

 

My point is that pros are often incorrect because of exactly what you just said, they are describing "feels" which are not real.  The engineers are working in the realm of real and so you better be getting a blend of both feel and real in your game or improvement will be a difficult and long journey.  @CSagan  gets it in that we should be making light of this and moving forwards laughing and learning from the mistakes of the past but you continue to try act as if there isn't a most efficient way to hit a wedge shot and that the worlds best male golfers often give up performance for a method that they are most comfortable with.  

 

 

[Valtiel]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:56 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

This is not what you should be copying average amateur golfer...there are many more efficient ways: 

 

 

18 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I 100% agree...I NEVER said that Spieth was wrong for playing the shot the way he wants to. I said that he isn't playing it in the most most efficient way just like when a pro decides that they are going to hit down on driver and sacrifice yardage. T

I feel like we're missing the fact that it's clearly raining and soggy, yeah? Look at the carnage throughout the chipping area. Hitting shots like Jordan is doing here is definitely the best way to approach soggy turf. No one would even dream of using the bounce and striking fractionally *behind* the ball in conditions like this. 

[Righty to Lefty]

29 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

I feel like we're missing the fact that it's clearly raining and soggy, yeah? Look at the carnage throughout the chipping area. Hitting shots like Jordan is doing here is definitely the best way to approach soggy turf. No one would even dream of using the bounce and striking fractionally *behind* the ball in conditions like this. 

Why not...the adjustment is no different than the adjustment made from hitting a bunker shot in a firm bunker to hitting one in a powder sugar bunker.  You probably shouldn't use a 60* wedge and should use less loft and your weigh distribution should move to be more 50/50 but the execution of the shot is still the same.  An amateur golfer in that situation for sure shouldn't be trying to hit one hop and stop shots from that position even on a good weather condition day unless forced to with that much room to use a 56, 52, PW, or even 9 iron and bump it onto the green and let it roll to the hole. You don't all of a sudden give up the technique to hit a bunker shot just because the bunker is softer you just make and adjustment and hitting a pitch shot from a soggy lie is no different. The bounce is still designed to prevent the club from digging and striking 1/2 inch to and inch behind the ball is still going to produce an acceptable result.  Also yes the soggy conditions create more damage to the turf but that area would look much different if everyone was hitting the shot that Spieth is demonstrating lets be real. 

 

Use the Bounce People!

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Righty to Lefty