Rogue ST Pro significantly longer than other PD irons...why?

[SE Gamer]

Late winter/early spring, I went to the local Golf Galaxy and hit a bunch of players distance irons from the different brands. All were pretty much in the same ballpark, with one exception. That being Callaway's Rogue ST Pro, which was about 20 yards longer than its competitors. In spite of having spin numbers that were negligibly different than the rest of the models/brands I hit. 

 

Recently watched a few comparison videos between the ST Pro and other PD irons. And the distance differences weren't nearly as pronounced. Basically non-existent really. Which makes me wonder what it was that made my experience so different. 

 

Starting to think it could be the shaft. But would that really account for them being 20 yards longer?

 

If so, it's kind of funny (to me). As I'm fairly certain it had a Stiff Project X Rifle Tour Flighted installed. But the few times I've hit PX in the past, I didn't seem to care for them. Although I don't think I'd ever previously hit the Tour Flighted model. 

 

Anyone else hit the ST Pro and find it to be significantly longer as well? Maybe this is normal. And the YT video comparisons I've seen with negligible distance differences (compared to other PD irons) are actually the outliers?

[phizzy30]

Maybe the set you tested had exceptionally hot faces which isn't uncommon for PD irons. 

[third-times-a-charm]

Could be the shaft fit for you. What was the loft difference? Did you test a standard lie head or a -1 or -2? Could have been the difference as well, for you, for a better strike.

[SE Gamer]

38 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Maybe the set you tested had exceptionally hot faces which isn't uncommon for PD irons. 

 

I suppose that's always possible. Makes me want to go test a second time at a different location to see if I experience the same.

 

20 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Could be the shaft fit for you. What was the loft difference? Did you test a standard lie head or a -1 or -2? Could have been the difference as well, for you, for a better strike.

 

Everything I tested was standard L/L/L. They are on the stronger end of the PD spectrum. But I don't think the variance from highest to lowest loft across the brands/models would even account for one club distance (solely based off of loft). Would have to check all the specs of what I hit to confirm. But they definitely weren't two clubs stronger in loft than any of the others.

I still think it'd be pretty crazy that the shaft would be the biggest factor, but that could be it. I've always played DG S300. In that session the irons I hit were all outfitted differently (DG, PX, Nippon, KBS). Just kind of surprising there'd be that much difference between shafts in the same "class". 

[me05501]

I guess I understand why some guys want to play the longest possible irons but I just don't. It seems like it would just create a gapping mess at the short end of my bag. 

 

I played a relatively tight course with three buddies yesterday. All of us shot in the 80's which isn't unusual for this foursome.

 

They all play GI or SGI irons while I prefer a smaller forged cavity back iron. There were a few short doglegs where they all hit "four irons" off the tee that flew high and long and went 200+ yards. I admit to being a little envious of THAT since I have to hit a hybrid to see the same shape. But when I look at their irons they are all extremely strong-lofted/perimeter weighted with generous offset. 

 

Now the P790 and Rogue ST Pros come along and offer the same distance and forgiveness without the awful looks, and it's a little tempting to check them out, but I keep coming back to the short end of the bag. I carry a gap wedge that goes 105-110 and a pitching wedge that is a solid 120 club. I can't see how it benefits me to have my PW start flying 135y. 

[TreqJosh]

The Rogue ST Pro did well for me and I bought them. Though, they were tested against GI/PD irons (T200/T300/P790/Stealth/i525/Apex DCB).
 

The lofts in the Rogue are strong (7i 30.5, 8i 34.5), so what you may have tested them against could be more traditional. 
 

What I’m trying to do with my set is play to the lofts instead of the number, so I’m trying to get better and play the 8 iron like a 7 iron. So a Rogue ST 7i may be a 6i in a competitor. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by TreqJosh

[Nessism]

Shafts don't provide propulsion.  But a shaft that matches your launch needs and provides good feedback, will typically result in better shots.

 

And spring face irons will add a little distance, but not 20 yards.  Closer to 5 or so, unless the club is also knocking off a lot of spin, or the shaft is longer, which adds club speed.  

 

 

[Cwing]

42 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I guess I understand why some guys want to play the longest possible irons but I just don't. It seems like it would just create a gapping mess at the short end of my bag. 

 

I played a relatively tight course with three buddies yesterday. All of us shot in the 80's which isn't unusual for this foursome.

 

They all play GI or SGI irons while I prefer a smaller forged cavity back iron. There were a few short doglegs where they all hit "four irons" off the tee that flew high and long and went 200+ yards. I admit to being a little envious of THAT since I have to hit a hybrid to see the same shape. But when I look at their irons they are all extremely strong-lofted/perimeter weighted with generous offset. 

 

Now the P790 and Rogue ST Pros come along and offer the same distance and forgiveness without the awful looks, and it's a little tempting to check them out, but I keep coming back to the short end of the bag. I carry a gap wedge that goes 105-110 and a pitching wedge that is a solid 120 club. I can't see how it benefits me to have my PW start flying 135y. 

Seems like this may make an interesting thread. ^^^^^

Edited September 26, 2022 by Cwing

[SE Gamer]

34 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I guess I understand why some guys want to play the longest possible irons but I just don't. It seems like it would just create a gapping mess at the short end of my bag. 

 

I played a relatively tight course with three buddies yesterday. All of us shot in the 80's which isn't unusual for this foursome.

 

They all play GI or SGI irons while I prefer a smaller forged cavity back iron. There were a few short doglegs where they all hit "four irons" off the tee that flew high and long and went 200+ yards. I admit to being a little envious of THAT since I have to hit a hybrid to see the same shape. But when I look at their irons they are all extremely strong-lofted/perimeter weighted with generous offset. 

 

Now the P790 and Rogue ST Pros come along and offer the same distance and forgiveness without the awful looks, and it's a little tempting to check them out, but I keep coming back to the short end of the bag. I carry a gap wedge that goes 105-110 and a pitching wedge that is a solid 120 club. I can't see how it benefits me to have my PW start flying 135y. 

 

FWIW, I don't disagree with you. Was more just curious as to what would have made the ST Pro so much longer than other irons in its class.

 

I've been gaming the same set of blades for the past 10-15 years. Compared to even current blades they're weak by a couple degrees. And a good 1.5 to 2 clubs weaker than PD irons. I don't really need the extra distance. But would be OK with another 5-10 yards.

My interest in the segment is more in relation to getting a little more forgiveness. But the gapping issues they could create has been something I've considered. In that I may end up having two PWs in the bag. One being the new PD model in the 43-44* range (if end up buying a set). And then keeping my current gamer, which is 49*.

[black bnr32]

Sounds like you finally hit the sweet spot

[me05501]

18 minutes ago, Cwing said:

Seems like this may make an interesting thread. ^^^^^

 

I'm sure it's been done to death here. Just never makes any sense to me. 

[DFS PFD]

You're not getting 20 yards from any single variable. They may have had stronger lofts than your other tested clubs, better fit shafts, but above all else, it is likely the club that you hit the most solid. No "spring face" is giving you 20 yards over another club of same loft. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by DFS PFD

[dmeeksDC]

I tried a bunch of hollow irons. They are all more alike than different. Not a major difference in distances except for lofts, but some do go longer if the shaft is a nice fit or light, etc. Or it is just a solid fit. The Rogue ST Pro was definitely on the long end for me, it’s a very nice iron, and easier to hit than Mizuno Pro 225, IMO. I think it ticks all the boxes except it is a little loud. I know a few guys gaming the Callaways and they like them a lot. 

 

You’re hitting indoors and if the spin readings are low, better to see how it goes on real grass. I don’t doubt they could be the longest for you but the gap may not be so large.

 

 

 

 

[SE Gamer]

2 hours ago, TreqJosh said:

The Rogue ST Pro did well for me and I bought them. Though, they were tested against GI/PD irons (T200/T300/P790/Stealth/i525/Apex DCB).
 

The lofts in the Rogue are strong (7i 30.5, 8i 34.5), so what you may have tested them against could be more traditional. 
 

What I’m trying to do with my set is play to the lofts instead of the number, so I’m trying to get better and play the 8 iron like a 7 iron. So a Rogue ST 7i may be a 6i in a competitor. 

 

The lofts are on the stronger end. But still don't think that'd account for such a distance gap. For instance the 223 is maybe 1.5* weaker. While the P790 is exactly the same loft as the ST Pro. And both the 223 and P790 were a good 15-20 yards shorter than the ST Pro was for me. 

 

Definitely agree about the numbers on clubs with modern sets. Used to be that, "what'd you hit there" would actually yield an answer that could aid in a decision. Modern lofts and the variances across the board pretty much make that question meaningless these days. Now, the number stamped on it is nothing more than a highly personalized reference for each players specific set. 

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, DFS PFD said:

You're not getting 20 yards from any single variable. They may have had stronger lofts than your other tested clubs, better fit shafts, but above all else, it is likely the club that you hit the most solid. No "spring face" is giving you 20 yards over another club of same loft. 

 

That's the curious part. I figured the lofts were just jacked quite a bit more than everything else. But after looking up the specs of the other irons I hit, they're slightly stronger than some (e.g. Mizuno 223) and equal to others (P790). So I have no idea what could have caused that variance. 

FWIW, I'm low a single-digit with pretty consistent ball striking. I'm sure I may have been flushing some models more consistently than others. But it wasn't a case of the ST Pro being a standout in terms of the quality of ball striking. 

 

The more I dig into it, the more stumped I am as to what was causing the difference.

[TreqJosh]

4 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

The lofts are on the stronger end. But still don't think that'd account for such a distance gap. For instance the 223 is maybe 1.5* weaker. While the P790 is exactly the same loft as the ST Pro. And both the 223 and P790 were a good 15-20 yards shorter than the ST Pro was for me. 

 

Definitely agree about the numbers on clubs with modern sets. Used to be that, "what'd you hit there" would actually yield an answer that could aid in a decision. Modern lofts and the variances across the board pretty much make that question meaningless these days. Now, the number stamped on it is nothing more than a highly personalized reference for each players specific set. 

I agree, I didn’t get 20 yards improvement and it is wild that you did in comparison to others. 

[SE Gamer]

6 minutes ago, TreqJosh said:

I agree, I didn’t get 20 yards improvement and it is wild that you did in comparison to others. 

 

It's definitely wild. I think at this point I need to go to a different store and hit a few again. Who knows, maybe Callaway had mis-stamped a club? Or as someone else suggested, it happened to be some unicorn with a crazy hot face. 

 

It was a great club. But, the distance was off-putting, frankly. Was just too much. Otherwise I may have looked really hard at picking up a set.

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, black bnr32 said:

Sounds like you finally hit the sweet spot

Probably more to this off-handed quip than you realize, hah. 

@SE Gamer What were the other irons that you compared it to? The Rogue ST Pro differs from many other modern player's distance irons in it's CG position, so it would easily be that it simply lined up with your strike tendencies more, thus more efficiency. Where you do you normally strike the ball on the face and what are your misses?

[puttingmatt]

Getting on a trackman may give you the answers you seek, need to look at spin numbers and ball speed numbers .

Real question, are you going to put the rogue st irons in the bag ,  looking forward to real play review.

[SE Gamer]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Probably more to this off-handed quip than you realize, hah. 

@SE Gamer What were the other irons that you compared it to? The Rogue ST Pro differs from many other modern player's distance irons in it's CG position, so it would easily be that it simply lined up with your strike tendencies more, thus more efficiency. Where you do you normally strike the ball on the face and what are your misses?

 

Meh. Finding the sweet spot is no problem. If it were, the whole playing blades for 15+ years probably wouldn't be a thing. 

 

@Valtiel Typical strike is a center-ish, favoring slightly low and towards the heel. Most common miss is catching it a groove or two lower. Pretty much never fat. In terms of shot shape I play a pretty consistent draw. Rarely block shots right. Miss would be a little pull. 

 

11 minutes ago, puttingmatt said:

Getting on a trackman may give you the answers you seek, need to look at spin numbers and ball speed numbers .

Real question, are you going to put the rogue st irons in the bag ,  looking forward to real play review.

 

This was on Trackman when I hit all of these. Same session on a single day. For one reason or another, outside of distances and shot shape, I was moderately focused on CHS and spin. Can't recall specifics from head to head. But nothing I recall that was out of the ordinary with any of the irons in terms of CHS and spin. 

As far as putting them in play. I don't know. They did feel good and were up at the top in terms of looks at address. Maybe a little too much offset. But if I went with them, I'd probably weaken them. Which would take out some offset. 

I've been testing a Maltby TS1 7 iron this year. Very happy with it. It's longer than my SE 600B. But not crazy long (which I'm good with). It checks a lot of boxes. Might be tempted to try the Rogue Pro if I found a screaming deal purely out of curiosity. 

[TreqJosh]

Just to add, might be worthless, in my fitting the closest that came to the Rogue ST Pro was the Stealth (7i @ 28 degrees) and the i525 (7i @ 30.5 degrees - same). This being said, I'm an absolutely terrible ball striker and a high handicapper so I'm not the best marker to help with. Still flabbergasted with your 20 yard difference vs other competitors like the P790 with your skill level. 

[Valtiel]

41 minutes ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Meh. Finding the sweet spot is no problem. If it were, the whole playing blades for 15+ years probably wouldn't be a thing. 

 

@Valtiel Typical strike is a center-ish, favoring slightly low and towards the heel. Most common miss is catching it a groove or two lower. Pretty much never fat. In terms of shot shape I play a pretty consistent draw. Rarely block shots right. Miss would be a little pull. 

 

 

This was on Trackman when I hit all of these. Same session on a single day. For one reason or another, outside of distances and shot shape, I was moderately focused on CHS and spin. Can't recall specifics from head to head. But nothing I recall that was out of the ordinary with any of the irons in terms of CHS and spin. 

As far as putting them in play. I don't know. They did feel good and were up at the top in terms of looks at address. Maybe a little too much offset. But if I went with them, I'd probably weaken them. Which would take out some offset. 

I've been testing a Maltby TS1 7 iron this year. Very happy with it. It's longer than my SE 600B. But not crazy long (which I'm good with). It checks a lot of boxes. Might be tempted to try the Rogue Pro if I found a screaming deal purely out of curiosity. 

The notable thing about the Rogue ST Pro is that it is very low CG, so it could very well be lining up better with your strike tendencies especially if the other irons you tested were higher CG. I didn't mean to imply you were mishitting the ball, more that the Rogue might have lined up with your tendencies better, which it sounds like it might have.

Do you have any of the Trackman data to share? 20y can't just come out of nowhere and it would have to be from either a swing speed/ball speed increase, or a higher launch/lower spin launch.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Valtiel

[SE Gamer]

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The notable thing about the Rogue ST Pro is that it is very low CG, so it could very well be lining up better with your strike tendencies especially if the other irons you tested were higher CG. I didn't mean to imply you were mishitting the ball, more that the Rogue might have lined up with your tendencies better, which it sounds like it might have.

Do you have any of the Trackman data to share? 20y can't just come out of nowhere and it would have to be from either a swing speed/ball speed increase, or a higher launch/lower spin launch.

 

You could be on to something with the VCOG being a factor. Any idea what this is for the ST Pro? They didn't have it listed on Maltby's site (no Mizuno 223 either). I was able to check some others I hit (Apex Pro, P790, P770, and Maltby TS1). I think the lowest VCOGs were the P790 and TS1 at around .75. The others were all around .80. 

And I wasn't taking it as you implying anything about ball striking. Was a response to the earlier comment you'd quoted that I hadn't planned on bothering with until it was quoted. 

 

I really should have paid more attention to the data. But my loose goal with that trip was to just test out what all this new tech was about. How it felt, along with what this class of club actually translated to in distance. I do know that CHS and spin were pretty consistent. With the former being negligibly different across the heads I hit (+/- 1 or 2 MPH). Spin was a slightly bigger window by comparison. But to the best of my memory, all were in the mid/low 6,000s. With maybe a few in the really high 5s. But were probably more due to slight mishits. 

While I wish I had paid more attention to launch and ball speed. I just wasn't that focused on the data. Will ultimately just have to make another trip with the intent of doing more detailed tracking.

 

[SE Gamer]

Little update. By happenstance, I came across a nearly brand new Rogue ST Pro set for a really good deal. 4 through AW with PX 6.0 Tour Flighted shafts. Had quite a few bumps in the road with the transaction and getting the run around from the guy for about a month. Finally convinced him it was in his best interest to either refund my money or send the clubs. He chose the latter, and at last I have them in hand. 

Hit a few balls in the home sim today, side-by-side against a Maltby TS1 7 iron I bought earlier in the year for testing. It's still a little early, but the Golf Galaxy outing I'd described in the OP isn't looking like a fluke. The ST Pro is giving me higher ball speed by around 8 MPH. The lofts are slightly stronger (half a degree). So not sure how much influence that has. Guessing it's just a much hotter face and/or the shaft is just right for my swing. 

Still plan to buy a TS1-IM when their revision drops early next year. But I'm excited to put the ST Pro in play next season. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by SE Gamer
Thought the ST Pro was 29* (actually 30.5*). So the loft difference compared to the TS1 I've been testing is basically nothing.

[me05501]

Can you share more impressions of the TS-1? Those are on my radar. 

[iNeedMoreGolf]

I own them and i can tell no more then 5 to 10 yards of difference maybe. They are nice overall though.

[SE Gamer]

On 12/3/2022 at 9:08 AM, me05501 said:

Can you share more impressions of the TS-1? Those are on my radar. 

 

Short version, it's an absolutely outstanding iron. Had the IM model been out already, I likely would have passed on the ST Pro set; in spite of it being a great deal.

 

Feel of the TS1 is great. Not as buttery smooth as my Snake Eyes 600B blades, but up at the top in respect to feel within the PD category irons I hit (790/770, 223, Apex Pro). 

Setup at address is nice. I prefer a thinner top line and minimal offset. The TS1 has both, and the IM model being released in a few months has reduced both. 

Distance, spin, workability, and control are on par or better than all the PD irons I hit from the big name brands. Never caught any "hot face" bullets throughout the season. Very dependable in the yardage I can expect to get out of it. With the benefit of sacrificing very little on poor strikes. On that note, the forgiveness is definitely there. Much less demanding than the blades I've gamed for over a decade.

I can't recommend them enough. And, like I said, the IM model will still be a consideration in spite of having just purchased my first "new" set of irons in the past 15 years.

 

I'd highly recommend having them build you an iron so that you can test it out. I think I paid around $50 for my TS1 7 iron. Pretty easy to stomach even if it doesn't work out for you. Upside is that Golfworks will likely give you the discount on the full set if you decide the TS1 is for you.