Tree stump question

[naval2006]

There’s a tree stump sawed off to level ground at a course I play. Is it still a tree, GUR even if it’s not marked or what?

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

There’s a tree stump sawed off to level ground at a course I play. Is it still a tree, GUR even if it’s not marked or what?

 

Well, I'm sure da boyz will be around shortly but it's a natural object, isn't it ? So not an obstruction.

 

Unless marked as GUR, I'm thinking you'd have play the ball as it lies; no relief.

[North Butte]

My guess is same as nsxguy's although back in the day I saw Ernie Els hit his tee shot miles left into the trees on either 13 or 15 at Augusta. He called a Rules official and pointed to a pile of sticks that had to be 40 yards into the woods. He claimed it was "material piled for removal" (it was not marked in any way) and was granted relief so generous he was able to play a normal layup shot just short of the water. With the free pass he'd have been hacking out backwards. 

 

So your stump might be "material sawed off for removal" if it was at Augusta, is what I'm saying. 

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

There’s a tree stump sawed off to level ground at a course I play. Is it still a tree, GUR even if it’s not marked or what?

 

It's just a very short tree.

Edited November 11, 2022 by sui generis

[596]

I'd figure if it was cut recently and is waiting to be removed asap, then a free drop. If it's been there for a while then no. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, naval2006 said:

There’s a tree stump sawed off to level ground at a course I play. Is it still a tree, GUR even if it’s not marked or what?

We would call that a short tree. No, it is not GUR unless marked. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

My guess is same as nsxguy's although back in the day I saw Ernie Els hit his tee shot miles left into the trees on either 13 or 15 at Augusta. He called a Rules official and pointed to a pile of sticks that had to be 40 yards into the woods. He claimed it was "material piled for removal" (it was not marked in any way) and was granted relief so generous he was able to play a normal layup shot just short of the water. With the free pass he'd have been hacking out backwards. 

 

So your stump might be "material sawed off for removal" if it was at Augusta, is what I'm saying. 

 

I expect if the tree itself was hacked up and left there, that would be material piled for removal.

 

From the description, the stump is still firmly embedded in the ground with its roots still intact, so not "material piled for removal".

 

Ground under repair also includes the following things, even if the Committee does not define them as such:

• Any hole made by the Committee or the maintenance staff in:

  • Setting up the course (such as a hole where a stake has been removed or the hole on a double green being used for the play of another hole), or

  • Maintaining the course (such as a hole made in removing turf or a tree stump or laying pipelines, but not including aeration holes).

• Grass cuttings, leaves and any other material piled for later removal. But:

  • Any natural materials that are piled for removal are also loose impediments, and

  • Any materials left on the course that are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless the Committee has defined them as such.

 

 

[antip]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

It's just a very short tree.

Precisely. Just had an extreme haircut.

Of course, the Committee may define it differently, so (always) need to check those local rules.

 

Having now read it, just agreeing with RO.

Edited November 11, 2022 by antip
Confessing hadn't seen that this answer is redundant.

[Colin L]

Given that the meaning of tree stump is the part of a sawn or broken  off tree that is still rooted in the ground,  it cannot therefore be material left for removal, a loose impediment or, being natural, an obstruction.  

[bladehunter]

10 hours ago, North Butte said:

My guess is same as nsxguy's although back in the day I saw Ernie Els hit his tee shot miles left into the trees on either 13 or 15 at Augusta. He called a Rules official and pointed to a pile of sticks that had to be 40 yards into the woods. He claimed it was "material piled for removal" (it was not marked in any way) and was granted relief so generous he was able to play a normal layup shot just short of the water. With the free pass he'd have been hacking out backwards. 

 

So your stump might be "material sawed off for removal" if it was at Augusta, is what I'm saying. 

Great point.   Local courses never. Ever. Ever mark anything.  Rarely can you ever see a penalty area line.  They’ll mark once or twice a year for major tournaments. Other than that. Nope. So we all have to guess at drops , and GUR and piles for removal.  Guys on tv don’t have to make such guesses.  

[Dpavs]

Agreeing with what others have already indicated (i.e. stumps are generally just short trees) I'm going to add that it depends on whether it is in the process of being removed or not.

 

Interpretations

Ground Under Repair/3 – Fallen Tree or Tree Stump Is Not Always Ground Under Repair

A fallen tree or tree stump that the Committee intends to remove, but is not in the process of being removed, is not automatically ground under repair. However, if the tree and the tree stump are in the process of being unearthed or cut up for later removal, they are “material piled for later removal” and therefore ground under repair.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Dpavs