RULES - I FOUND THIS EXPERIENCE ODD - The RULE ?

[Pastit]

What follows occurred in a high status amateur team match:

 

After clearing the 14th green, which was halved, player “ A “, playing first out,  discovered his ball in play was not his prior to hitting off 15th tee. The make was identical and the ball was one of quality so probably originated from a fellow team member or the  opposition in the morning play. “ A “ had visited heavy rough on the 14th when a mistake was easily possible. But the exact point “ A “ made the mistake was indeterminable.

 

I suggested an on-hand referee be consulted, “ A “ declined, going on to win by > than one hole. The team match was won by one point, the last singles’ win by “ A’s ‘ team when a ball hit OB bounced back into the course off a wall resulting in a half. I felt this out-turn was a disgrace. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Pastit
Omission

[rogolf]

Forget about the outcome of the team matches, and focus on player A.  Player A played a wrong ball somewhere, most likely on hole no. 14, and when he did so, he immediately lost the hole.  When he was made aware of the situation and declined to follow-up, it could well be a breach of Rule 1.2a and/or1.3b resulting in DQ.  Imo, the Committee, if notified, are required to follow-up and apply the Rules.

And I would seriously question the integrity of player A.

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Pastit said:

What follows occurred in a high status amateur team match:

 

After clearing the 14th green, which was halved, player “ A “, playing first out,  discovered his ball in play was not his prior to hitting off 15th tee. The make was identical and the ball was one of quality so probably originated from a fellow team member or the  opposition in the morning play. “ A “ had visited heavy rough on the 14th when a mistake was easily possible. But the exact point “ A “ made the mistake was indeterminable.

 

I suggested an on-hand referee be consulted, “ A “ declined, going on to win by > than one hole. The team match was won by one point, the last singles’ win by “ A’s ‘ team when a ball hit OB bounced back into the course off a wall resulting in a half. I felt this out-turn was a disgrace. 

 

Hmmmm, odd that nobody's commented yet.

 

I'll give it a try.

 

Firstly, since the issue was "discovered" in time, there was an opportunity to correct it if necessary.

 

But for an official to become involved, I'm not sure whether or not "A" is allowed to "decline", or if he/she is required to consult said referee, if there's one available with no undue delay.

 

Anyway, while A's ball is not YET "in play", I'm assuming here you are sure "A" has the same ("wrong" ?) ball on the next tee that he picked out of the previous hole, yes ?

 

Assuming that is the case, "A" played a wrong ball and loses the hole.

 

You mention team play though. If the match is a 4-ball and A's teammate played correctly and tied the hole the result of that hole would still be a tie.
 

[Pastit]

21 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Forget about the outcome of the team matches, and focus on player A.  Player A played a wrong ball somewhere, most likely on hole no. 14, and when he did so, he immediately lost the hole.  When he was made aware of the situation and declined to follow-up, it could well be a breach of Rule 1.2a and/or1.3b resulting in DQ.  Imo, the Committee, if notified, are required to follow-up and apply the Rules.

And I would seriously question the integrity of player A.

I could not agree more but the R & A disagreed years later when I got around to talking to them.

 

I raised the team issue to demonstrate how important one error can be to an extremely important event.

 

To the guy below, it was a singles match. I was “ A’s “ caddy that day and had advised him to consult the ref. Thanks

Edited November 16, 2022 by Pastit
Spelling

[Pastit]

18 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hmmmm, odd that nobody's commented yet.

 

I'll give it a try.

 

Firstly, since the issue was "discovered" in time, there was an opportunity to correct it if necessary.

 

But for an official to become involved, I'm not sure whether or not "A" is allowed to "decline", or if he/she is required to consult said referee, if there's one available with no undue delay.

 

Anyway, while A's ball is not YET "in play", I'm assuming here you are sure "A" has the same ("wrong" ?) ball on the next tee that he picked out of the previous hole, yes ?

 

Assuming that is the case, "A" played a wrong ball and loses the hole.

 

You mention team play though. If the match is a 4-ball and A's teammate played correctly and tied the hole the result of that hole would still be a tie.
 

Thanks, please see my reply just above. 

[Colin L]

If I've read this correctly,  Player A let it be known that he had finished the 14th hole with a different ball from the one he had started with. If Pastit can confirm that A had not taken relief of any kind during the play of that hole, then A, by his own admission, played a wrong ball.  It doesn't matter that it isn't known  at exactly what point it happened; it happened during play of the 14th.

 

 Why he didn't at the same time acknowledge that he had consequently lost the hole is not known but all that does is to put his integrity or his knowledge of a basic rule in question.   It doesn't matter because Pastit suggested calling in a referee, something which he was entitled to do [Rule 20.1b(2)]. It might have been better to make it stronger than a "suggestion" but It was most certainly not for Player A to decline to have that happen. It is at this point that his conduct becomes unquestionably odorous.

 

No referee is called and the game continues.  I would consider (not least because of a possibly unworthy wish to nail Player A) that Pastit had made a timely request for a ruling (ie before either player had made a stroke on the 15th) and so the Committee could make a ruling.  That would at the least be that A lost the hole and the the match result would be adjusted.  Sadly, since A won by more than one hole he still won which makes consideration of a DQ as suggested by Rogolf all the more compelling.  No-one should be allowed to win a match after such conduct.

 

@nxsguy, It's not possible to play a wrong ball when you start a hole - if that's what you meant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Colin L

[Pastit]

18 minutes ago, Colin L said:

If I've read this correctly,  Player A let it be known that he had finished the 14th hole with a different ball from the one he had started with. If Pastit can confirm that A had not taken relief of any kind during the play of that hole, then A, by his own admission, played a wrong ball.  It doesn't matter that it isn't known  at exactly what point it happened; it happened during play of the 14th.

 

 Why he didn't at the same time acknowledge that he had consequently lost the hole is not known but all that does is to put his integrity or his knowledge of a basic rule in question.   It doesn't matter because Pastit suggested calling in a referee, something which he was entitled to do [Rule 20.1b(2)]. It might have been better to make it stronger than a "suggestion" but It was most certainly not for Player A to decline to have that happen. It is at this point that his conduct becomes unquestionably odorous.

 

No referee is called and the game continues.  I would consider (not least because of a possibly unworthy wish to nail Player A) that Pastit had made a timely request for a ruling (ie before either player had made a stroke on the 15th) and so the Committee could make a ruling.  That would at the least be that A lost the hole and the the match result would be adjusted.  Sadly, since A won by more than one hole he still won which makes consideration of a DQ as suggested by Rogolf all the more compelling.  No-one should be allowed to win a match after such conduct.

 

@nxsguy, It's not possible to play a wrong ball when you start a hole - if that's what you meant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No relief was taken during hole 14, the ball was at the base of c 2’ long grass and played without detailed examination because it appeared to be “ A’s “ ball. 
 

The issue for me is that it’s not certain where/ when the wrong ball originated save that one hole, minimally, should have been conceded if matters had gone normally.

 

I expected the R & A to confirm my view that “ A “ should have called in a referee or conceded the whole match. As a caddy, it was only up to me to advise my player, at least as I saw it on the day. 
 

On ANO post on here, I described how tore up my card when a similar issue occurred in a medal round when I suspected I’d played the wrong ball ( albeit an identical one ) for 3 holes. This event occurred prior to “ A’s “ above. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Pastit
Syntax

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hmmmm, odd that nobody's commented yet.

 

I'll give it a try.

 

Firstly, since the issue was "discovered" in time, there was an opportunity to correct it if necessary.

 

 How do you "correct" playing a wrong ball in Match Play?

[Mr. Bean]

OP does not give enough information to give a ruling. First it must be established when player A was last known to have played with their former ball. That is not clearly said in the OP.

 

If A started to play #14 with a different ball they believed had finished that hole then it is evident that A somewhere along the hole 14 had played a wrong ball thus losing that hole. Nothing more to it.

 

If it is not known which ball A used to start hole 14 there is no concrete evidence proving A had played wrong ball during hole 14. In such a case no penalty and the score of #14 stands as played.

 

As shown here it is of paramount importance to have precise information. Without that a correct ruling is simply a dream.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 How do you "correct" playing a wrong ball in Match Play?

 

"Firstly, since the issue was "discovered" in time, there was an opportunity to correct it if necessary"

 

"it" is the issue (if any).

 

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

If I've read this correctly,  Player A let it be known that he had finished the 14th hole with a different ball from the one he had started with. If Pastit can confirm that A had not taken relief of any kind during the play of that hole, then A, by his own admission, played a wrong ball.  It doesn't matter that it isn't known  at exactly what point it happened; it happened during play of the 14th.

 

 Why he didn't at the same time acknowledge that he had consequently lost the hole is not known but all that does is to put his integrity or his knowledge of a basic rule in question.   It doesn't matter because Pastit suggested calling in a referee, something which he was entitled to do [Rule 20.1b(2)]. It might have been better to make it stronger than a "suggestion" but It was most certainly not for Player A to decline to have that happen. It is at this point that his conduct becomes unquestionably odorous.

 

No referee is called and the game continues.  I would consider (not least because of a possibly unworthy wish to nail Player A) that Pastit had made a timely request for a ruling (ie before either player had made a stroke on the 15th) and so the Committee could make a ruling.  That would at the least be that A lost the hole and the the match result would be adjusted.  Sadly, since A won by more than one hole he still won which makes consideration of a DQ as suggested by Rogolf all the more compelling.  No-one should be allowed to win a match after such conduct.

 

@nxsguy, It's not possible to play a wrong ball when you start a hole - if that's what you meant.

 

 

Obviously coulda been more clear.

 

"Wrong" ball, in this case, was the one that he holed out on the previous hole; as in - not the ball he started the previous hole with.

Edited November 17, 2022 by nsxguy

[Augster]

This was match play? Once Player A said out loud to his opponent that he had played a wrong ball “somewhere” on 14, why didn’t the opponent claim the hole?

 

No need for an official. 
 

Or did his opponent think he can just “forget” and “forgive” the penalty because it’s match play and decided to play on? In that case, even though the opponent cannot ignore the penalty, the opponent may not know he can’t ignore the penalty, so there is no penalty. Score stands/hole stands/match stands as played. 
 

If Player A thought he might have played a wrong ball on 14, and DIDN’T mention it to his opponent, then he IS a cheat and should be DQ’d. 
 

As a caddy, I’m not sure what the rules require YOU to do in match play. IDK, since you know about the likely infraction, if you’re REQUIRED to tell the opponent about it in a timely manner even when your player isn’t going to. 
 

I may have to read more about a caddy’s role in match play. 
 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

This was match play? Once Player A said out loud to his opponent that he had played a wrong ball “somewhere” on 14, why didn’t the opponent claim the hole?

 

No need for an official. 
 

Or did his opponent think he can just “forget” and “forgive” the penalty because it’s match play and decided to play on? In that case, even though the opponent cannot ignore the penalty, the opponent may not know he can’t ignore the penalty, so there is no penalty. Score stands/hole stands/match stands as played. 
 

If Player A thought he might have played a wrong ball on 14, and DIDN’T mention it to his opponent, then he IS a cheat and should be DQ’d. 
 

As a caddy, I’m not sure what the rules require YOU to do in match play. IDK, since you know about the likely infraction, if you’re REQUIRED to tell the opponent about it in a timely manner even when your player isn’t going to. 
 

I may have to read more about a caddy’s role in match play. 
 

 

Let's not go down the rabbit of caddies.  Always remember - in terms of the Rules, the caddie is the player.  Same Rules, constraints and privileges. 

A player may choose to ignore a breach of the Rules by his opponent that the player observes but once the issue has surfaced before a stroke is made from the next tee, the Rule must be applied.

Player A played a wrong ball, lost a hole and the match score must be adjusted.  Old Decision 15-3/1 discusses this, and the outcome has not changed with the 2019 Rules.

[Augster]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Let's not go down the rabbit of caddies.  Always remember - in terms of the Rules, the caddie is the player.  Same Rules, constraints and privileges. 

A player may choose to ignore a breach of the Rules by his opponent that the player observes but once the issue has surfaced before a stroke is made from the next tee, the Rule must be applied.

Player A played a wrong ball, lost a hole and the match score must be adjusted.  Old Decision 15-3/1 discusses this, and the outcome has not changed with the 2019 Rules.

The OP never mentions if his player, Player A, ever told his opponent of the lost ball. But apparently he did tell his caddy, the OP. 
 

At that point does the caddy have an obligation to tell the opponent what has transpired and the opponent actually won the last hole? Or does he have to stay mum, at the behest of his player, and be in cahoots with the cheating of the opponent?

 

What a tangled web we weave when we choose to deceive. 

[Colin L]

Firstly, as said above more than once, there is no question but that Player A played a wrong ball while playing the 14th. Pastit has confirmed that he did not substitute another ball during the hole.  He said himself that he finished with a different ball from the one he started with. I'm now not clear, however, who he said it to as  I had wrongly taken it from the description that Pastit was his opponent.   It now turns out he was Player A's caddie.  Was anything at all said to the opponent at the time?  If not, does the opponent know now or is he still ignorant of the situation?  Did the  OP as a caddie with a conscience raise his misgivings with the Committee afterwards?   If the opponent was informed at the time, he presumably did not make a request for a ruling to the Committee as there is no mention of such a ruling.

 

If Player A did not tell his opponent at the time what had happened, it should not be too late for the Committee to deal with the situation  - provided it is now drawn to its attention.  Player A was obliged to inform his opponent of a penalty incurred before his opponent played another stroke. [Rule 3.2d(2)].    The Committee can act on a breach of that rule even if the ruling request is made after the result of the match is final.  There is no time limit to that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

"Firstly, since the issue was "discovered" in time, there was an opportunity to correct it if necessary"

 

"it" is the issue (if any).

 

 

So, you correct the issue, not having played wrong ball as in MP you lose the hole the second you make a stroke at a wrong ball.

[Mr. Bean]

Deleted, nothing important.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Pastit]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

Firstly, as said above more than once, there is no question but that Player A played a wrong ball while playing the 14th. Pastit has confirmed that he did not substitute another ball during the hole.  He said himself that he finished with a different ball from the one he started with. I'm now not clear, however, who he said it to as  I had wrongly taken it from the description that Pastit was his opponent.   It now turns out he was Player A's caddie.  Was anything at all said to the opponent at the time?  If not, does the opponent know now or is he still ignorant of the situation?  Did the  OP as a caddie with a conscience raise his misgivings with the Committee afterwards?   If the opponent was informed at the time, he presumably did not make a request for a ruling to the Committee as there is no mention of such a ruling.

 

If Player A did not tell his opponent at the time what had happened, it should not be too late for the Committee to deal with the situation  - provided it is now drawn to its attention.  Player A was obliged to inform his opponent of a penalty incurred before his opponent played another stroke. [Rule 3.2d(2)].    The Committee can act on a breach of that rule even if the ruling request is made after the result of the match is final.  There is no time limit to that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you all. As I saw it at the time, it’s up to the player to mark his ball and so be aware if he has played the wrong ball and when. A caddy is only there in an advisory role to his player on clubbing etc, not the rules and certainly not obliged to speak outside his relationship with the player. 
 

His bag/ player, “ A “ was not aware when a wrong ball was played so which hole did he lose ( rhetorical ). Can anyone say they check thoroughly at each shot. It is usual in matches I play, to an announce the make of one’s ball at tee 1 and to advise later changes. I not aware that it’s a rule other than if one cannot ID one’s ball then it’s a lost ball. In the elite amateur game, like that I’m concerned with here, it’s sloppy play not to behave as I’ve just stated. 

 

I marked my balls, in comps only, with a date and ball number played that day ( I.e. My initials then 17/11/22/1 and so on for today’s first ball ) and mark that on the card I’m marking. This is because I’ve no short term memory. I’ve never seen anyone else do this in this format  but I do not do it in friendly match play. So it’s obvious to me when I’ve played the wrong ball in comps as such marking cannot be missed.

 

I assume that “A” had the perverse view that, since he’d no idea where the error occurred, he had played honestly from that point. The R & A, also perversely IMO, seemed to agree. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Pastit
Syntax

[nsxguy]

15 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, you correct the issue, not having played wrong ball as in MP you lose the hole the second you make a stroke at a wrong ball.

 

Not sure exactly what you're saying but I (think I) agree.

 

"A" lost the hole as he obviously (somewhere) hit a wrong ball on the 14th hole.

[nsxguy]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:01 PM, Pastit said:

 

The issue for me is that it’s not certain where/ when the wrong ball originated save that one hole, minimally, should have been conceded if matters had gone normally.

 

I expected the R & A to confirm my view that “ A “ should have called in a referee or conceded the whole match. As a caddy, it was only up to me to advise my player, at least as I saw it on the day.

 

Looking back I saw this post (again).

 

Why one earth should/should "A" have conceded the match ? At most he should have conceded his error on 14 and adjusted the match's status. So instead of the tie he should've lost that hole.

 

Was there a "1 ball" Model Local Rule in effect ?

[Augster]

I look at my marks on my ball every single time. To play a wrong ball at any time is complete clownery and totally avoidable. 
 

I think the OP’s dismissal of his rules requirements as a caddy is the main problem in this situation. That, and Player A playing outside the rules. 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

....To play a wrong ball at any time is complete clownery and totally avoidable..... . 

I totally agree.  In fact, that's very close to what I told myself a couple of weeks ago when I played a wrong ball -  but slightly less colourful. 

[antip]

Here's the old decision, the principles have not changed if the circumstances are the same:

 

15-1/3 Hole at Which Wrong Ball Played Unknown
Q. A player discovers after the 6th hole that he is not playing the ball with
which he started the round. He does not know when he first played the
different ball. What is the ruling in:
(a) stroke play?
(b) match play when:
(i) he has won every hole?
(ii) he has lost every hole?
(iii) he has won 4 holes, lost 1 hole and halved 1 hole?
(iv) he has lost 4 holes, won 1 hole and halved 1 hole?
 
A. The Committee must determine whether the different ball is a wrong
ball or not and give the player the benefit of any doubt – see Decision 15-1/2.
Thus, if the different ball might have been put into play under a Rule or if
the player might have put the different ball into play at the start of a hole,
the Committee should rule in favour of the player and the player incurs no
penalty in either match play or stroke play.
If, however, the conclusion is that a wrong ball has been played:
(a) in stroke play, the player is disqualified, unless the conclusion is that
the wrong ball was played at the 6th hole and the player rectifies his
mistake as prescribed in Rule 15-3b.
(b) in match play, the Committee must determine on a balance of
probabilities the hole at which the wrong ball was played and
the player loses the hole, the state of the match being adjusted
accordingly, if necessary. If it is impossible to determine the hole at
which the wrong ball was played, in equity (Rule 1-4):
(i) the player loses one of the holes which he had won and becomes
4 up instead of 6 up.
(ii) the player remains 6 down.
(iii) the player becomes one hole worse off, i.e. he becomes 2 up
instead of 3 up.
(iv) as in (iii), i.e. he becomes 4 down instead of 3 down.

[Pastit]

4 hours ago, antip said:

Here's the old decision, the principles have not changed if the circumstances are the same:

 

15-1/3 Hole at Which Wrong Ball Played Unknown
Q. A player discovers after the 6th hole that he is not playing the ball with
which he started the round. He does not know when he first played the
different ball. What is the ruling in:
(a) stroke play?
(b) match play when:
(i) he has won every hole?
(ii) he has lost every hole?
(iii) he has won 4 holes, lost 1 hole and halved 1 hole?
(iv) he has lost 4 holes, won 1 hole and halved 1 hole?
 
A. The Committee must determine whether the different ball is a wrong
ball or not and give the player the benefit of any doubt – see Decision 15-1/2.
Thus, if the different ball might have been put into play under a Rule or if
the player might have put the different ball into play at the start of a hole,
the Committee should rule in favour of the player and the player incurs no
penalty in either match play or stroke play.
If, however, the conclusion is that a wrong ball has been played:
(a) in stroke play, the player is disqualified, unless the conclusion is that
the wrong ball was played at the 6th hole and the player rectifies his
mistake as prescribed in Rule 15-3b.
(b) in match play, the Committee must determine on a balance of
probabilities the hole at which the wrong ball was played and
the player loses the hole, the state of the match being adjusted
accordingly, if necessary. If it is impossible to determine the hole at
which the wrong ball was played, in equity (Rule 1-4):
(i) the player loses one of the holes which he had won and becomes
4 up instead of 6 up.
(ii) the player remains 6 down.
(iii) the player becomes one hole worse off, i.e. he becomes 2 up
instead of 3 up.
(iv) as in (iii), i.e. he becomes 4 down instead of 3 down.

Thanks kindly for posting this. This type of elite amateur event is inter regional matchplay with 6 foursomes a.m. and 12 singles p.m. in one day. Each match carries a referee who announces the score after each hole-completion. Hence my advice to use the referee who is on hand. It would be rare to find any players > scratch selected to play.
 

In reply on the question above on the “ one model ball “ : the answer is no. But the matches are preceded by a practice afternoon when all sorts of quality balls would be lying about, I assume many carrying so-called unique ID marks. I’d caddied all over the U.K. for “ A” and never known any other dodgy issues and he was backed up by the R & A after all ! 
 

I repeat it wasn’t for me to make any decisions but offer advice to my player only. Caddies should be seen and not heard by anyone other than their player. 
 

p.s. To answer Halebopp: No, the matter was not raised with anyone until years later when I got around to asking the R & A. I hate to generalise but I’ve seen ANO event for elite amateurs when few players knew the GUR rule for new plantations hence a general feeling the elite might be rather loose with their understanding. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Pastit
Omission

[Halebopp]

Was the opponent even made aware of the breach?

[nsxguy]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:41 AM, Pastit said:

Thank you all. As I saw it at the time, it’s up to the player to mark his ball and so be aware if he has played the wrong ball and when. A caddy is only there in an advisory role to his player on clubbing etc, not the rules and certainly not obliged to speak outside his relationship with the player. 
 

His bag/ player, “ A “ was not aware when a wrong ball was played so which hole did he lose ( rhetorical ). Can anyone say they check thoroughly at each shot. It is usual in matches I play, to an announce the make of one’s ball at tee 1 and to advise later changes. I not aware that it’s a rule other than if one cannot ID one’s ball then it’s a lost ball. In the elite amateur game, like that I’m concerned with here, it’s sloppy play not to behave as I’ve just stated. 

 

I marked my balls, in comps only, with a date and ball number played that day ( I.e. My initials then 17/11/22/1 and so on for today’s first ball ) and mark that on the card I’m marking. This is because I’ve no short term memory. I’ve never seen anyone else do this in this format  but I do not do it in friendly match play. So it’s obvious to me when I’ve played the wrong ball in comps as such marking cannot be missed.

 

I assume that “A” had the perverse view that, since he’d no idea where the error occurred, he had played honestly from that point. The R & A, also perversely IMO, seemed to agree. 

 

In explaining further you seem to have introduced more questions than answers.

 

1) @rogolf said earlier "Always remember - in terms of the Rules, the caddie is the player.  Same Rules, constraints and privileges."   

 

You don't seem to agree with this. I wonder if YOU were obliged to call the rules violation on you and your player ? Was your suggesting to your player to call an official "good enough" ?

 

I had originally concentrated so much on the rules aspect of this scenario I didn't really notice that "A", having been notified by yourself that he had played a wrong ball, by NOT saying anything, had cheated.

 

2) "So which hole did he lose ? (rhetorical)". Well, you haven't answered since you "reacted" to antip's rundown on how the match should have been adjusted, so his post is the non-rhetorical answer to that question.

 

3) You corresponded back then with the R&A about the incident. THEY agreed "no harm, no foul" ? I find that extremely difficult to believe. Then again, I have to wonder exactly how you explained it to them since you've not done a great job explaining it here on your thread.

 

Surely the R&A didn't go back and forth with you as we have here.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by nsxguy

[Pastit]

28 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

In explaining further you seem to have introduced more questions than answers.

 

1) @rogolf said earlier "Always remember - in terms of the Rules, the caddie is the player.  Same Rules, constraints and privileges."   

 

You don't seem to agree with this. I wonder if YOU were obliged to call the rules violation on you and your player ? Was your suggesting to your player to call an official "good enough) ?

 

I had originally concentrated so much on the rules aspect of this scenario I didn't really notice that "A", having been notified by yourself that he had played a wrong ball, by NOT saying anything, had cheated.

 

2) "So which hole did he lose ? (rhetorical)". Well, you haven't answered since you "reacted" to antip's rundown on how the match should have been adjusted, so his post is the non-rhetorical answer to that question.

 

3) You corresponded back then with the R&A about the incident. THEY agreed "no harm, no foul" ? I find that extremely difficult to believe. Then again, I have to wonder exactly how you explained it to them since you've not done a great job explaining it here on your thread.

 

Surely the R&A didn't go back and forth with you as we have here.

Very kind of you to make so many observations. If I find anything useful to carry forward I shall always be most grateful. You may wish to note that: I report things factually, including the R & A’s views; the player observed the wrong ball.  Thanks again. 

[QEight]

Seems like quite a bit was lost "in translation".

[Mr. Bean]

On 11/18/2022 at 10:58 AM, Pastit said:

. I hate to generalise but I’ve seen ANO event for elite amateurs when few players knew the GUR rule for new plantations hence a general feeling the elite might be rather loose with their understanding. 

 

What exactly is "the GUR rule for new plantations" ?

[nsxguy]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:51 AM, Halebopp said:

Was the opponent even made aware of the breach?

 

On 11/18/2022 at 2:41 PM, Pastit said:

Very kind of you to make so many observations. If I find anything useful to carry forward I shall always be most grateful. You may wish to note that: I report things factually, including the R & A’s views; the player observed the wrong ball.  Thanks again. 

 

15 hours ago, QEight said:

Seems like quite a bit was lost "in translation".

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What exactly is "the GUR rule for new plantations" ?

 

Forget it gents.

 

Clearly Pastit doesn't want to clear up/explain any of his inconsistent/fuzzy points. Especially if he's held to the same standard as his player - that of calling out the player's side's cheating.

 

I expect he'll just lock this silly thread.

[Pastit]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

 

Forget it gents.

 

Clearly Pastit doesn't want to clear up/explain any of his inconsistent/fuzzy points. Especially if he's held to the same standard as his player - that of calling out the player's side's cheating.

 

I expect he'll just lock this silly thread.

Anyone with half-a-brain can see the point, as the early respondents did. Kindly take your your malice elsewhere.