Remove the flagstick when off the green?

[Mr. Bean]

51 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

The one I use has a smaller magnetised one inside it. Do I'll use that if I'm close to the hole.

 

The smaller one is thick enough to deflect a ball as well.

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

There is one of those guys at my club as well. Very nice guy but I do not like to play with him for two reasons and that is one of them.

 

It is amazing how some people still believe that keeping the pin in gives an advantage while it is the opposite. In casual play I do not mind keeping the pin in but if I am trying to make a score I have it removed for all putts except very long ones.

 

It's amazing how some people still believe keeping the pin in is a disadvantage, especially when the experts are (still) split on it.

 

Basically it's about as close to 50/50 as you can get. I'll generally leave it in unless the shadow of the flag is waving around or over my ball OR if the flag can't be seated properly and is therefore leaning. I also find the flag helps (me) visually; as in a better "target".

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

I find this study convincing enough.

[chisag]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

It's amazing how some people still believe keeping the pin in is a disadvantage, especially when the experts are (still) split on it.

 

Basically it's about as close to 50/50 as you can get. I'll generally leave it in unless the shadow of the flag is waving around or over my ball OR if the flag can't be seated properly and is therefore leaning. I also find the flag helps (me) visually; as in a better "target".

 

 

... I have seen a few studies that stated flag in is always an advantage and it just makes sense. I hated putting with it in when Covid hit but got used to it and like you, I now find it helps me visually as I putt to the center of flag pole, left side or right side of it andI find it more definitive than an empty cup. I always prefer it is but common sense should always prevail. If I am playing with 3 others that prefer it out, I have no problem at all blending in. If I play with 2 in and 2 out, once it is pulled I don't need it back in. Although I do think every group should decide one way or the other. 

... Played with 3 strangers Friday and 3 of us preferred it in and "that guy" preferred it out. Same guy that stalked 3rd putts from all 4 sides after missing twice. Same guy that needed to walk up to the green to see his landing spot then chunk or thin one an even those he hit solid were no where near his landing spot. Just a real PIA and by the back 9 we were pulling the flag every time to accommodate him in an effort to speed his routines up, even if just a little. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I have seen a few studies that stated flag in is always an advantage and it just makes sense.

 

So.... why do more than 95% of professional golfers always have the pin removed for sinkable putts..?

[Newby]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So.... why do more than 95% of professional golfers always have the pin removed for sinkable putts..?

Which study did you get that from?

Edited November 29, 2022 by Newby

[Colin L]

45 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So.... why do more than 95% of professional golfers always have the pin removed for sinkable putts..?

 All putts are sinkable.  Is there a common distance from the hole where the changeover from in to out takes place?

 

I suspect that if your figure is correct it's more to do with the fact that these players have spent so many hours putting thousands of times at an open hole that they're not going to change now.  Not so much out of habit  but because they don't want to change what they see when they putt.  Their fixed mental picture is of an open hole, an image so well printed on their mind that they wouldn't risk changing it.  But that's just amateurish psychology on my part.  

 

Alternatively, they've tried it both ways and, like many of us, have made their minds from scant evidence that one way is more successful than another (De Chambeau excepted, of course).

 

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Which study did you get that from?

 

That can be seen from TV and on site.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

 All putts are sinkable.  Is there a common distance from the hole where the changeover from in to out takes place?

 I am sure you understood what I meant but decided to take that approach as usual. Yes, all putts are sinkable but not all of them are tried to be sunk.

 

It is customary even for professionals that in long putts the primary aim is to secure max 2 putts instead of trying hard to sink the 1st one. My experience from TV broadcasts and on site observations is that quite a few pros leave the pin in when putting such (very long) putts and almost everyone has it removed for those putts they really try to sink.

[Robert72]

You could have told him to "Pull it yourself".

 

(That's what SHE said!)😃

[nsxguy]

While I'm guessing that Mr B made up the 95%, based purely on evidence that I have zero proof of, I'd guess he was pretty close.

 

Can only think of a couple who routinely leave it in. Adam Scott and DeShampoo leap to mind.

 

As to why,,,,,,,,, tradition ? Or as Colin said, "habit". They've been doing it so long.

 

I'm sure they've ALL at least tried it. Maybe for a month, maybe a week, maybe a putting session, maybe just once.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That can be seen from TV and on site.

I have seen half a dozen or more studies/tests/whatever from tour players, expert coaches, mathematicians, physicists etc and the split seems to be about 50/50. The issue is that they aren't all doing exactly the same tests. One guy was even including balls that would have passed the hole by over 3 metres in order to demonstrate that such a ball would finish nearer the hole if it hit the flagstick in the hole.

 

I rarely watch TV golf but happened to see parts of a couple of 'biggies' a few months ago after players had presumably settled on their preference.

I noticed that quite often players would follow what the player ahead had done, particularly when they were near the hole. A couple of those I noticed didn't seem to have a preference. If they were first (say) they may leave it in but if they had to put again and an intervening player had it out, the first player would leave it out. And vice versa.

One player in the US Open caught my eye (he is a local lad). He seemed to be chopping and changing, until I realised there was a pattern. Follow the leader.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Newby

[Schulzmc]

After looking at a bunch of studies, the ones like the one posted by Mr. Bean above are the most convincing for me. Add to that my own anecdotal evidence after a couple years of leaving the pin in all the time, and I have a high degree of certainty that taking the pin out is better. I've had way too many putts deflect off the side of the pin and not go in at a moderate speed. The only time I can see an advantage to the pin being in is a putt that is traveling so fast it would have ended up 8 feet past but hits the pin and is now 2-3 feet away instead. And the solution there is to not hit the putt 8 feet past!

 

Interestingly, my circle of friends at my club spent almost two years just leaving the pin in. Rarely did someone ask to have it out. But over the last few months more and more guys are taking it out when we get within 10 feet or so. I've even had a few guys ask to have the pin tended, like in the old days.

[Mr. Bean]

38 minutes ago, Newby said:

I have seen half a dozen or more studies/tests/whatever from tour players, expert coaches, mathematicians, physicists etc and the split seems to be about 50/50. The issue is that they aren't all doing exactly the same tests. One guy was even including balls that would have passed the hole by over 3 metres in order to demonstrate that such a ball would finish nearer the hole if it hit the flagstick in the hole.

 

You nailed it, parameters are different in every test published.

 

It all started with Pelz's study which was not about putting but chipping and with rather long distances and speeds. Then there was a test with way too hard putts which make zero sense in real life. And in the end there is the study by Molinari Academy which is the most credible one as it deals mainly with putts with correct speed.

 

I have seen so many times when a ball putted with correct speed hits the pin slightly off-center and ricochets away from the hole. Without the pin those putts would always find their way into the hole according to my experience of 30+ years of putting.

 

About 20 years ago one local pro (player and a teacher) wrote in an article why he tends to have the pin removed when chipping close to the green. He said that the hole looks 30% larger without the pin. That psychological aspect combined with Molinari's study makes a lot of sense to me.

[Colin L]

From the study Mr Bean referred to it seems I should decide in or out according to the speed the ball will be going at when it reaches the hole.  I just wish I had the judgement and technique to control  and know the speed my ball is going to be going at.  😢.    In fact, I'd go quietly for all my putts just  to reach somewhere near the hole.  Zero velocity a metre or more short of  the hole kind of renders the discussion meaningless.

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Colin L said:

From the study Mr Bean referred to it seems I should decide in or out according to the speed the ball will be going at when it reaches the hole.  I just wish I had the judgement and technique to control  and know the speed my ball is going to be going at.  😢.    In fact, I'd go quietly for all my putts just  to reach somewhere near the hole.  Zero velocity a metre or more short of  the hole kind of renders the discussion meaningless.

 

Yes, learning how to putt improves your score 🤓

[Dpavs]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

While I'm guessing that Mr B made up the 95%, based purely on evidence that I have zero proof of, I'd guess he was pretty close.

 

Can only think of a couple who routinely leave it in. Adam Scott and DeShampoo leap to mind.

 

As to why,,,,,,,,, tradition ? Or as Colin said, "habit". They've been doing it so long.

 

I'm sure they've ALL at least tried it. Maybe for a month, maybe a week, maybe a putting session, maybe just once.

 

I agree and think there are a likely number of golfers who just find it visually disconcerting too, which in turn would impact one's confidence. If so, that's kind of a recipe for disaster.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Dpavs

[nsxguy]

37 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

After looking at a bunch of studies, the ones like the one posted by Mr. Bean above are the most convincing for me. Add to that my own anecdotal evidence after a couple years of leaving the pin in all the time, and I have a high degree of certainty that taking the pin out is better. I've had way too many putts deflect off the side of the pin and not go in at a moderate speed. The only time I can see an advantage to the pin being in is a putt that is traveling so fast it would have ended up 8 feet past but hits the pin and is now 2-3 feet away instead. And the solution there is to not hit the putt 8 feet past!

 

Interestingly, my circle of friends at my club spent almost two years just leaving the pin in. Rarely did someone ask to have it out. But over the last few months more and more guys are taking it out when we get within 10 feet or so. I've even had a few guys ask to have the pin tended, like in the old days.

 

I suspect a great many of us rely more on our own anecdotal evidence than we care to admit.

 

"Moderate speed" ? Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,,

 

Since most(?) of these tests reveal about as close to a 50/50 result as one can get (likely why the USGA made the rule to save time, in the first place), I think it boils down to preference as much as it does "results".

 

Human nature, I believe, suggests to me, that most players are, at least in this case, far more likely to remember the ball being "kicked out" more than they will remember the better result of the ball being kept in.

 

After all, we "know" the putt kicked out would've gone in, right ?  I've seen any number of (especially) higher handicappers hitting the stick and it coming out 6 inches, going "OMG, did you see that ? It definitely would've gone in" and I'm thinking to myself "it would've broken the stick if it hit it dead flush".

 

That aside, there's really no way to know for sure it would've stayed in. You can be as sure as you can be but,,,,,,,,,

 

When the rule first showed up I did a fair bit of testing myself. While the USGA recommends holes be in an area of 2-3 feet of relatively flat ground AND the hole should be made as close as possible to 90*,,,,,,,,, yeah, doesn't happen on the courses I play either.

 

In my testing, as was mentioned in one of the tests I've read, the author noted what I'd seen when I first tested.

 

When the hole is cut on a slope, the ball hitting the pin on the low side is turned away. Same putt hit to the high side goes in.

 

The edge of the cup on the low side is more likely to allow the ball to lip out simply because the edge of the cup is lower, and gravity is pulling the ball away from the hole.

 

On the high side, not only is the edge of the cup higher, to help hold it in, but gravity is pulling the ball towards the hole. Add to that, the pin itself will tend to hold the ball in. On the low side there is no pin to help.

 

And the testing can't quantify the mental benefit, if any, of having a larger/additional target to the middle of the hole.

 

Similar to results of a putt going by by 8 feet not going in, if you're putting from 4 feet and the stick repels your ball, you've hit it too hard in the first place and the back of the cup wouldn't have helped.

 

Anyway, just my

[nsxguy]

6 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

 

I agree and think there are a likely number of golfers who just find it visually disconcerting too, which in turn would impact one's confidence. If so, that's kind of a recipe for disaster.

 

A favorite expression of Thais is, "Up to you".

[Schulzmc]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Since most(?) of these tests reveal about as close to a 50/50 result as one can get (likely why the USGA made the rule to save time, in the first place), I think it boils down to preference as much as it does "results".

 

You said something similar before - but I don't think it is accurate. Only a few of the studies I have seen are close to 50/50. I have seen more like the one Mr. Bean referenced above. 

 

[Newby]

39 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

 

You said something similar before - but I don't think it is accurate. Only a few of the studies I have seen are close to 50/50. I have seen more like the one Mr. Bean referenced above. 

 

The studies themselves don't say the outcome is 50/50 in favour of out or in. My reference comment was that 50% of the studies were in favour of 'in' and 50% were in favour of 'out'.

[Newby]

nsxguy said

I suspect a great many of us rely more on our own anecdotal evidence than we care to admit.

 

It seems 'IMO' is now synonymous with 100% certainty.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Newby

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

 

You said something similar before - but I don't think it is accurate. Only a few of the studies I have seen are close to 50/50. I have seen more like the one Mr. Bean referenced above. 

 

 

Partially my point. Different studies, different results, especially about putts rolling 8 feet past the hole somehow being relevant to balls going in or staying out.

 

Now a player being "better off" by hitting the pin with that 8 foot long putt I don't think is debatable. But  will it go in ? Not likely.

 

But that ball will almost certainly be closer for the next putt than it would have been skipping over the hole, even if it caught a little of the back lip on the way past.

 

And again, I have to wonder how one would measure one's increase, or decrease for that matter, of leaving the stick in.

 

For me personally, I mostly leave the pin the way it already is. If somebody's taken it out, I'll leave it out. If it's in I typically leave it in.

 

Exceptions ? Sure. I take it out if it's leaning anywhere but away from my putt and can't be straightened.

 

I also take it out if the shadow of the flag (sometimes the pin) is interfering with my ability to concentrate or line up.

 

And I may ask for the pin to go back it for a longer putt, as in over 30 feet or so, or a slippery downhill putt.

 

Glad there's a choice. Wouldn't it be something if the ruling bodies said we MUST leave the pin in ?

[Dpavs]

The only very convincing item in a study I have seen is that if your course uses the older style thick flag sticks which do not taper before they reach the hole, don't leave them in period.

 

Other than that the results from studies vary somewhat as to what happens at certain speeds, distance, breaking vs flat greens, etc.

 

Based on the reviews, studies, etc. that I have reviewed, I have started to leave the flag in if it's a put within 8 feet. Generally outside of this I would just as soon have it pulled. Truth is though in league play that can be a pain to keep up with, so I will generally leave it in now unless someone in the group prefers it out.

[Pepperturbo]

Not big on studies of any sort.  Data can (not always) be distorted in the direction of bias of those paying for the study.

When putting, I still like the stick removed.  However, at times have left it in, and a few of those times, had the ball hit it and spin out, in another direction.  Call it what you will, I trust my judgement and experience far more than studies conducted by people selling something, or what others say on DB's, after a quick google search.   

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[Augster]

Anecdotal or not, I had 11 putts hit the stick and carom out when we were forced to leave the pin in from April 2020 to end of May 2020. I also saw a lot more made putts hit the stick and miss from other players in my groups. 
 

That was enough for me. 
 

I got lazy about pulling it one time this year. I chipped it to 18 inches and figured I’d leave it in. Hit the center of the stick, caromed instead of going down, and lipped out. Gave someone else a skin I would have tied. 
 

Anyone that leaves the stick in is playing with fire. It doesn’t happen all the time. But it will. When I get paired up with someone who always wants it in, I mention they are playing with fire. 
 

Often they hit the stick and miss during a round. Then claim, “I can’t believe it! I’ve never seen that happen before.”

 

Sure buddy. You were warned. 
 

 

[SE Gamer]

On 11/26/2022 at 7:16 PM, rainkingjr said:

This is what I was afraid of with the rule change. Folks getting annoyed with someone who prefers the pin out, like myself. I especially can't stand putting with the pin in on short putts. I almost never removed the pin on chip shots, but have done it once or twice. I am fast player though. I certainly don't spend an eternity reading or standing over putts. Think long, think wrong is my motto.

 

Another pin out guy here. At least outside of crazy long putts. But even then tended would be my preference. Simply put, any scenario where having the pin in benefits me is one in which I don't deserve to make the putt. 

Guy in my league this year was a vehement pin-in guy. Only played with him a couple times. But remember at least two instances where he putted to about a foot and marked his ball. Others in the group proceeded to putt out (with the pin out). And he asked that the pin be replaced before attempting his one-footer.

It's not that I was bothered by it or minded accommodating. Ultimately just assumed it must be a mental thing for the guy.  As I'd think putting with the pin in that close leans towards a disadvantage. 

[Newby]

nsxguy would seem to have hit it on the head.

 

[Colin L]

On 11/29/2022 at 1:13 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 I am sure you understood what I meant but decided to take that approach as usual. Yes, all putts are sinkable but not all of them are tried to be sunk.

 

It is customary even for professionals that in long putts the primary aim is to secure max 2 putts instead of trying hard to sink the 1st one. My experience from TV broadcasts and on site observations is that quite a few pros leave the pin in when putting such (very long) putts and almost everyone has it removed for those putts they really try to sink.

I just wondered if you knew of a commonly understood distance nearer than which it is better to take the pin out. 

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, Augster said:

Anecdotal or not, I had 11 putts hit the stick and carom out when we were forced to leave the pin in from April 2020 to end of May 2020. I also saw a lot more made putts hit the stick and miss from other players in my groups. 
 

That was enough for me. 
 

I got lazy about pulling it one time this year. I chipped it to 18 inches and figured I’d leave it in. Hit the center of the stick, caromed instead of going down, and lipped out. Gave someone else a skin I would have tied. 
 

Anyone that leaves the stick in is playing with fire. It doesn’t happen all the time. But it will. When I get paired up with someone who always wants it in, I mention they are playing with fire. 
 

Often they hit the stick and miss during a round. Then claim, “I can’t believe it! I’ve never seen that happen before.”

 

Sure buddy. You were warned. 
 

 

 

As mentioned earlier, IMO, one is FAR more likely to remember the ones that come out than the ones that stay in. But you know, your post brought to mind something I confess I haven't given all that much thought to.

 

Perhaps the putting style of the player has something to do with it.

 

Are you a "back of the cup" guy ? Or a "front lip" guy ?

 

I'm actually a somewhat "cautious" putter, which I think the majority of us are. I think the psychology (fear ? ) of seeing the ball rolling away from the hole, causes cautious putters, like myself, to be a front lip kinda guy.

 

I'm actually trying, and finding a little success, in hitting those shorter putts a bit firmer, and I feel the pin being in helps/allows me to do that, because, for me, I can "straighten" out the putt and hit it a bit harder..

 

But if one is a "back of the cup" kinda guy, I can see leaving that pin in being a fear factor. I guess I can see hitting either side of the pin, with a firmly hit putt, kicking the ball out rather than helping to keep it in. Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,