Easy swing technique for high handicap golfers ready to try something different

[chipa]

For those persons interested, as my signature explains our technique is very simple, based on Hogan's active leg tension, doing a forward press to start the swing and then stretching the left shirt sleeve as we reach our left hand over our right shoulder as Manuel de La Torres taught, and there are no downswing thoughts.

 

Our setup has the weight mostly centered but just a little bit more on the right side and also on the front of the feet. The head is displaced slightly to the right of the spine and the hands slightly to the left of the spine about the same distance. Neither can be too far from center because it has a tendency to break down the leg tension. The butt of the left hand must sit on the butt of the grip as demonstrated by Mike Austins video. This gives the left arm and wrist the flexibility needed for it to reach across the body and over the right shoulder.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by chipa

[Zitlow]

He's athletic which helps but he could eliminate some slack and create more stretch. His COM should be over his right leg to wind up the muscles of the lower back. 

 

 

His COM should be in front of his C7 to take advantage of the strong muscles of his lower back, right thigh and glute unwinding into the ball. 

 

[chipa]

19 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

He's athletic which helps but he could eliminate some slack and create more stretch. His COM should be over his right leg to wind up the muscles of the lower back. 

 

 

His COM should be in front of his C7 to take advantage of the strong muscles of his lower back, right thigh and glute unwinding into the ball. 

 

 

Thanks for the input. Javier's swing is a work in progress, he has been playing for less than 3 years and we can generally only practice once or twice a month. He had an over the top move but it is getting better. Also, this was the first day that I had him angle his right leg back like Hogan. He found it to be difficult and said he couldn't do it in fact but after hitting a few shots noticed he had more power and the ball didnt slice to the right. We played 9 holes and a few holes later his legs resisted much better and he bombed a wind aided 3 wood 270 yards which I verified by Google Maps. I think it would have been around 240 yards with around 225 yards of carry, which is a great improvment for him.

 

We both have 43" "driving" 3 woods with tall faces to make it easy to tee off with and have a more boring flight. We switched to this after reading the advice on this forum. Our only goal is to shoot in the low 80's, not to compete. Our home (only) course is a Pete Dye design and has small elevated Bermuda greens with many drop offs, so missing a green here is a certain bogey most of the time.

Edited December 10, 2022 by chipa

[Soloman1]

You can swing any way you want. All that matters is your results.

 

There’s a difference between giving advice to someone who asks and crapping on someone because they don’t have a “pretty” swing.

 

Tour pros with “pretty” swings are much more athletic than 50 year-old people. And plenty of people with “pretty” swings can’t crack an egg. Conversely, people with ugly swings have won majors and plenty of money from people.

 

[Zitlow]

You and Javier are definitely on the right track. Simplistically speaking the golf swing is winding the muscles into tension and releasing the tension accelerating the clubhead through the ball. 

 

Bobby Jones can articulate it better than me. I've posted this several times because he covers all the bases in a little over a minute. 

 

 

 

[Fuscinator]

It's amazing how a few simple thoughts can make such a difference, especially to us once-in-a-while players. For example, when I first started playing, I stopped saying "oh ****!" at the top of my backswing and changed it to "die, you little ******-******!" Back then, I didn't realize why it worked, but the latter, taking much longer to say, gave me more time in transition. Hit 'em well, folks!🙏🏻

[jmevox]

I just don’t understand how swaying, a bent lead arm, and such a long backswing would be repeatable. To me those are all a recipe for disaster

[Gsea]

1 minute ago, jmevox said:

I just don’t understand how swaying, a bent lead arm, and such a long backswing would be repeatable. To me those are all a recipe for disaster

But he hit a 275yrd 3 wood lol

[PracticeSwinger]

35 minutes ago, jmevox said:

I just don’t understand how swaying, a bent lead arm, and such a long backswing would be repeatable. To me those are all a recipe for disaster

I’m with you - lots of ‘extra’ movements not seen in efficient swings that usually lead to low point control problems; and we all know that’s a big no-no for a decent score

[airjammer]

RblmGuy is that you?

[chipa]

17 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I’m with you - lots of ‘extra’ movements not seen in efficient swings that usually lead to low point control problems; and we all know that’s a big no-no for a decent score

 

Our goal is to shoot in the low 80's.  Also, we both have back and knee problems, our technique has eliminated that and we certainly have enough distance and accuracy to reach our goal. This technique may be useful for golfers that can't break 100.

[CasualLie]

Not exactly how I would "guide" a player in their 50's, but hey, more power to you and kudos for posting swing videos.  It takes some guys to start a thread like this and show a video that I highly suspect will not produce 105mph swing speed 3 woods.

 

I'm well aware this goes against all the stats guys, but really, if you just want to shoot low 80s, keep the ball in play, no hero shots, and minimize three putts.  You only need to hit about 6 greens to shoot 82.

 

 

[Nickc]

Looking at the videos is one of your key moves you are advocating the forward press of the hands before the start of the backswing which seems to preset the start of the wrist hinge. Or am I mistaken?

Just interested in understanding your ideas.

 

[chipa]

10 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Not exactly how I would "guide" a player in their 50's, but hey, more power to you and kudos for posting swing videos.  It takes some guys to start a thread like this and show a video that I highly suspect will not produce 105mph swing speed 3 woods.

 

I'm well aware this goes against all the stats guys, but really, if you just want to shoot low 80s, keep the ball in play, no hero shots, and minimize three putts.  You only need to hit about 6 greens to shoot 82.

 

 

 

Thanks. Regarding my clubhead speed I had a radar but it broke recently. I also measure the distances on Google Maps. I drove a 300 yard green with my 3deep with a 2-3 club breeze. 

[chipa]

12 minutes ago, Nickc said:

Looking at the videos is one of your key moves you are advocating the forward press of the hands before the start of the backswing which seems to preset the start of the wrist hinge. Or am I mistaken?

Just interested in understanding your ideas.

 

 

This is a good question. I have tried the forward press off and on for many years and couldn't make it work with the hands hinging being a major problem.

 

However, 3 new techniques changed that for me, one using Mike Austin's method of gripping the club with the left hand, two the right hand is passive and barely holds the club, and three after doing the forward press and starting the club initially low to the ground then I start to reach the left hand over the right shoulder while at the same time I start to extend my upper left arm away from the shoulder so it seems the hand and arm line up with the wrist hinging naturally. BTW, the left hand and upper arm movement is easy really to do and is not contrived at all. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by chipa

[Chunkitgood]

I didn’t think muscles work that way (tension).  I thought when you lengthen a muscles you increase the power eventually generated because you allow for more, longer contraction, not because muscles are loaded or under tension like a spring or rubber band.

 

And truth is, I still think that.

[Golfbeat]

Love this thread!

[Krt22]

5 hours ago, jmevox said:

I just don’t understand how swaying, a bent lead arm, and such a long backswing would be repeatable. To me those are all a recipe for disaster

It's the bending of the tendons few people know about 

[chipa]

5 hours ago, jmevox said:

I just don’t understand how swaying, a bent lead arm, and such a long backswing would be repeatable. To me those are all a recipe for disaster

 

Calvina Peete kept his left arm bent and is the most accurate driver of the PGA of all time.

 

Nicklaus and Snead also bent their left arm.

 

Byron Nelson and Walter Hagen both had a lot of sway in their swing.

 

I'm not trying to make the PGA tour, just shoot in the low 80's and not hurt myself trying to hit certain postions and keeping my left arm straight. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by chipa

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Calvina Peete kept his left arm bent and is the most accurate driver of the PGA of all time.

 

Nicklaus and Snead also bent their left arm.

 

Byron Nelson and Walter Hagen both had a lot of sway in their swing.

 

I'm not trying to make the PGA tour, just shoot in the low 80's and not hurt myself trying to hit certain postions and keeping my left arm straight. 

Calvin Peete is probably not a good example.  He kept his arm as straight as he physically could.  His arm was broken as a child and mis-set.  His wasn't an extra lever that could move on the downswing which is the source of concern for having a bent elbow.

[chipa]

4 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Calvin Peete is probably not a good example.  He kept his arm as straight as he physically could.  His arm was broken as a child and mis-set.  His wasn't an extra lever that could move on the downswing which is the source of concern for having a bent elbow.

 

Walter Hagen, Jack Nickluas and Sam Snead also bent their arm.

 

Please note that my left arm straightens as I start my downswing and as such I'm not advocating trying to keep it bent, I just don't want a lot of tension. Not only does it hurt me it robs me of clubhead speed.

[chipa]

Ben Hogan bent his left arm close to impact

 

      

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by chipa

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, Chunkitgood said:

I didn’t think muscles work that way (tension).  I thought when you lengthen a muscles you increase the power eventually generated because you allow for more, longer contraction, not because muscles are loaded or under tension like a spring or rubber band.

 

And truth is, I still think that.

 

I learned this from a kinesiologist and you don't have to know how it works to hit a golf ball hard you just need to trust it so you can use muscular force instead of muscular effort to hit a golf ball hard. 

 

Muscles can only pull and cannot push. Muscles work in pairs to move a joint, when one muscle shortens the opposite muscle lengthens. 

 

In the video I posted Bobby Jones calls it winding up the mechanism. They can unwind or release the stored energy quicker and more efficiently than you can consciously do it. Swing thoughts slow down the reflexes.  

 

The backswing sets the whole thing up. He's loading his scaps (retraction and protraction) in the backswing and his downswing timing or swing sequence releases the load just before and through the ball. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chipa]

Annika Sorenstam

 

[chipa]

Jamie Sadlowski

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

The real problem (IMO) is that the OP seems to believe there is a way for high handicap players to learn to play that differs in its essentials from the way expert golfers play.

 

As far as I can tell there is only one sequence for the use of the large muscles of the legs and torso (the essential elements of the swing, as opposed to accidental) that produces the club face being applied to the ball so that the club will operate as designed (including change the direction of the force applied to the ball).  If you learn something else, you are learning to swing wrong, and the better you learn wrong, he harder it is to change.

 

That sequence is a compound motion consisting of fairly simple and “natural” (or intuitive) separate motions in the different planes (coronal, sagittal, and transverse) in which the body can move.  It (the compound motion) can be performed without a lot of power being generated by the muscles (that is, it can be performed properly slowly and without “loading” of the muscles).  On the other hand, there appears (go to a driving range and see) to be a virtually infinite number of ways in which the muscles can be “loaded” without coming close to performing the proper sequence.

 

Not learning to use the large muscles in the proper sequence as a base for what Cowen calls the pyramid of learning (as opposed to treating it as the result of doing something with the hands/arms/clubs) is why people never learn to strike the ball properly.

 

IMO respectfully submitted.

[Chunkitgood]

And if muscles worked by tension like rubber bands, all you would have to do is let lose to get forceful motion.  I don’t think it works like that.  You have to forcefully contract the relevant muscles.

 

This is important because there is an idea out there that the backswing causes the downswing, like the unwinding of a rubber band causes the propeller to move on a toy airplane.  If the backswing caused the downswing you would not have to learn the downswing.  The backswing precedes the downswing, but does not cause it.  I think it was Hogan who said the use of the large muscles in the start of the downswing is the most important part of the swing.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Chunkitgood

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Chunkitgood said:

The real problem (IMO) is that the OP seems to believe there is a way for high handicap players to learn to play that differs in its essentials from the way expert golfers play.

 

As far as I can tell there is only one sequence for the use of the large muscles of the legs and torso (the essential elements of the swing, as opposed to accidental) that produces the club face being applied to the ball so that the club will operate as designed (including change the direction of the force applied to the ball).  If you learn something else, you are learning to swing wrong, and the better you learn wrong, he harder it is to change.

 

That sequence is a compound motion consisting of fairly simple and “natural” (or intuitive) separate motions in the different planes (coronal, sagittal, and transverse) in which the body can move.  It (the compound motion) can be performed without a lot of power being generated by the muscles (that is, it can be performed properly slowly and without “loading” of the muscles).  On the other hand, there appears (go to a driving range and see) to be a virtually infinite number of ways in which the muscles can be “loaded” without coming close to performing the proper sequence.

 

Not learning to use the large muscles in the proper sequence as a base for what Cowen calls the pyramid of learning (as opposed to treating it as the result of doing something with the hands/arms/clubs) is why people never learn to strike the ball properly.

 

IMO respectfully submitted.

 

With all due respect I'm sure there are well known teaching pros that would disagree with your theory, Manny de La Torres being one if he were still alive. 

 

BTW I am not promoting a pro level sratch swing either, just something that is efficient, easy on the body and repeatable enough so that golfers can shoot in the 80's. There are a lot of golfers that won't ever swing like a pro so there is a middle ground for techniques like the one I'm promoting. This method also develops high clubhead speed and a natural draw flight which would be attractive to some golfers, that is my goal in fact, to help others enjoy the game more.

[nikeblades00]

I feel like we know Javier! Can we call him Javi for short?

[chipa]

Just now, nikeblades00 said:

I feel like we know Javier! Can we call him Javi for short?

 

Sure why not. My name's chip.

 

I will be posting more videos of Javier as his swing progresses. I also remember I know a guy at my course that competed on the long drive tour and has a trackman, maybe I can borrow one of his drivers and video my swing hitting 120.