Has anyone on here actually fixed a true cast?

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

Yes just seems like there's a rush to be Monte's spokeperson.  Monte is a great instructor who's an even better speaker.  It's great that he's so involved and helpful on here.  The problem is that if everyone wants to be his sidekick then it stifles discussion.

I think you hit it on the head. I don’t disagree with anything you said. 

 

[Krt22]

16 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

Yes just seems like there's a rush to be Monte's spokeperson.  Monte is a great instructor who's an even better speaker.  It's great that he's so involved and helpful on here.  The problem is that if everyone wants to be his sidekick then it stifles discussion.

It really has nothing to do with that. In reality there is no generic fix to anything in the golf swing, what works for one guy isn't going to work for everyone, which is where understanding the difference between root cause flaws and compensations comes into play. 

 

So a lot of these threads dead end because some folks aren't willing to get into the specifics of their swing, which is essential to actually improve IMHO.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

11 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

It really has nothing to do with that. In reality there is no generic fix to anything in the golf swing, what works for one guy isn't going to work for everyone, which is where understanding the difference between root cause flaws and compensations comes into play. 

 

So a lot of these threads dead end because some folks aren't willing to get into the specifics of their swing, which is essential to actually improve IMHO.

 

Definitely.  

 

It would just be extremely beneficial to hear from someone who has actually fixed it and how it happened.  If the story is "my left arm was stuck to my chest and once I fixed that the cast went away and now I have the lag of a pro" then that would be awesome to hear.  If it's "it was a 5 year grind with half swings and freezer drills" then that would also be helpful.

 

My fear is that if it's not something you do from a young age or whenever you start playing then fixing it is near impossible.

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[Hawkeye77]

41 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

Yes just seems like there's a rush to be Monte's spokeperson.  Monte is a great instructor who's an even better speaker.  It's great that he's so involved and helpful on here.  The problem is that if everyone wants to be his sidekick then it stifles discussion.

You're the one being unnecessarily argumentative, ascribing motives to other posters and, for example, mischaracterizing Monte's responses just to get in whatever jabs you were wanting to get in to start with.  Monte doesn't need any sidekicks and I didn't see any responses even close to that.

 

After working on it for a long time, my cast isn't "fixed", I still cast, but in more appropriate ways.  I'll always cast in some way, so will you.  I've had some success, hoping for more.  If that's really all you want, there it is.

 

Post your swing, it's relevant - "you post yours so I can see you got better but I'm not sharing" isn't productive.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

Same as below, site triple posted me.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

 

 

Darn no delete button anymore.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You're the one being unnecessarily argumentative, ascribing motives to other posters and, for example, mischaracterizing Monte's responses just to get in whatever jabs you were wanting to get in to start with.  Monte doesn't need any sidekicks and I didn't see any responses even close to that.

 

After working on it for a long time, my cast isn't "fixed", I still cast, but in more appropriate ways.  I'll always cast in some way, so will you.  I've had some success, hoping for more.  If that's really all you want, there it is.

 

Post your swing, it's relevant - "you post yours so I can see you got better but I'm not sharing" isn't productive.  

 

Sorry but when a response is "believe what you want, hear are my awesome credentials" instead of addressing any of the points, which aren't at all fringe, then that's the equivalent of how I characterized his post.  Besides being a fallacy, it's a poor method of discussion and shouldn't be glorified on here.

 

Yes I've accepted that I'll never look like an elite player on the downswing, but I'd like to at least get it to 90 degrees or so at P5.

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

It really has nothing to do with that. In reality there is no generic fix to anything in the golf swing, what works for one guy isn't going to work for everyone, which is where understanding the difference between root cause flaws and compensations comes into play. 

 

The problem is that there are no universally agreed upon root cause flaws in every case, potentially this one. 
 

Monte has his beliefs on root causes but I can tell you for a fact that other well respected teachers on this board have some very different root cause explanations for many things. That’s ok. This stuff isn’t all cut and dried. Although that unhealthy narrative also circulates here. 

 

When everyone just regurgitates the standard Monte stuff, it becomes toxic. 

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You're the one being unnecessarily argumentative, ascribing motives to other posters and, for example, mischaracterizing Monte's responses just to get in whatever jabs you were wanting to get in to start with.  Monte doesn't need any sidekicks and I didn't see any responses even close to that.

 

After working on it for a long time, my cast isn't "fixed", I still cast, but in more appropriate ways.  I'll always cast in some way, so will you.  I've had some success, hoping for more.  If that's really all you want, there it is.  

Hawk, you are a nice guy, but you are doing exactly what he’s talking about  

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Hawk, you are a nice guy, but you are doing exactly what he’s talking about  

Same to you, I just sensed things had gotten to the unfair point with the OP hiding the ball a bit about working with Monte then the reveal and taking a little shot, so even though Monte can defend himself I felt the need (still no sidekick, but no secret I'm a student).  Maybe that's not how he was really wanting this stuff to be taken, if so, I read it wrong and will comment no further on any of that. Heck, I jumped in this thread to defend the OP, lol. I'm jumping out!

 

I even jumped into a thread I should have stayed out of years ago (no way!) and defended Dan Carragher, who could be a little caustic, but all situational for sure.  The funny part was Dan then quotes me and proceeds to absolutely blister me having not read or digested any of what was written in support of him.  Later, sort of an Emily Litella SNL "Nevermind" from Dan - closest I was going to get for an apology. Good enough, haha. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[RoyalTroon]

35 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

When everyone just regurgitates the standard Monte stuff, it becomes toxic. 

 

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

18 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Same to you, I just sensed things had gotten to the unfair point with the OP hiding the ball a bit about working with Monte then the reveal and taking a little shot, so even though Monte can defend himself I felt the need (still no sidekick, but no secret I'm a student).  Maybe that's not how he was really wanting this stuff to be taken, if so, I read it wrong and will comment no further on any of that. Heck, I jumped in this thread to defend the OP, lol. I'm jumping out!

 

I even jumped into a thread I should have stayed out of years ago (no way!) and defended Dan Carragher, who could be a little caustic, but all situational for sure.  The funny part was Dan then quotes me and proceeds to absolutely blister me having not read or digested any of what was written in support of him.  Later, sort of an Emily Litella SNL "Nevermind" from Dan - closest I was going to get for an apology. Good enough, haha. 

 

I pointed out that I've worked with Monte to say that I've implemented his suggestions and they were extremely helpful (except for casting).  I know he knows his stuff.  Doesn't mean his points are infallible

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[Krt22]

16 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

Definitely.  

 

It would just be extremely beneficial to hear from someone who has actually fixed it and how it happened.  If the story is "my left arm was stuck to my chest and once I fixed that the cast went away and now I have the lag of a pro" then that would be awesome to hear.  If it's "it was a 5 year grind with half swings and freezer drills" then that would also be helpful.

 

My fear is that if it's not something you do from a young age or whenever you start playing then fixing it is near impossible.

Definitely not impossible, but it does take a lot of work, really owning your swing and understanding/accepting the flaws. For what it's worth the tilty chicken wing hooker was (err is?) my pattern. I have done a lot of work to mitigate it, but old habits die hard so it requires constant maintenance. If I start hitting hooks or steep cuts, I generally know why and can iron it out.

 

An early cast is sometimes purely a backswing issue, if you are starting the hinge too late or simply not hinging them enough, it can cause those angles to unload early. If you did everything else "right" and still threw the club early, you would hit a lot of fat shots. But you said that is not an issue, your low point control is better than it was, so what are you looking to solve in this case? 

[MPStrat]

29 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I even jumped into a thread I should have stayed out of years ago (no way!) and defended Dan Carragher, who could be a little caustic, but all situational for sure.  The funny part was Dan then quotes me and proceeds to absolutely blister me having not read or digested any of what was written in support of him.  Later, sort of an Emily Litella SNL "Nevermind" from Dan - closest I was going to get for an apology. Good enough, haha. 

I laughed out loud at that story! 

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

14 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Definitely not impossible, but it does take a lot of work, really owning your swing and understanding/accepting the flaws. For what it's worth the tilty chicken wing hooker was (err is?) my pattern. I have done a lot of work to mitigate it, but old habits die hard so it requires constant maintenance. If I start hitting hooks or steep cuts, I generally know why and can iron it out.

 

An early cast is sometimes purely a backswing issue, if you are starting the hinge too late or simply not hinging them enough, it can cause those angles to unload early. If you did everything else "right" and still threw the club early, you would hit a lot of fat shots. But you said that is not an issue, your low point control is better than it was, so what are you looking to solve in this case? 

 

Thank you for the genuine response.

 

Why would you have to hit it fat if you did everything else right but still casted?  Isn't that more for flipping?

 

Speed and consistency.  And to be clear I'm not saying everything else is perfect.  I just see people that clearly have the flaws that are supposedly the cause of casting that don't cast.  

 

The weird thing is if I do one handed swings, I don't cast at all and hit it decently solid for one hand.  That leads me to believe it's some type of mental block.  With a 2 hand swing I even cast it poorly from a freezer position at p5.

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[Krt22]

33 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Same to you, I just sensed things had gotten to the unfair point with the OP hiding the ball a bit about working with Monte then the reveal and taking a little shot, so even though Monte can defend himself I felt the need (still no sidekick, but no secret I'm a student).  Maybe that's not how he was really wanting this stuff to be taken, if so, I read it wrong and will comment no further on any of that. Heck, I jumped in this thread to defend the OP, lol. I'm jumping out!

 

I even jumped into a thread I should have stayed out of years ago (no way!) and defended Dan Carragher, who could be a little caustic, but all situational for sure.  The funny part was Dan then quotes me and proceeds to absolutely blister me having not read or digested any of what was written in support of him.  

Oddly enough Dan (and many other great instructors) have simply stopped posting in this forum and I am guessing it's threads exactly like this one that ultimately pushed them away.

 

A handful of people seem to make it their MO to take pop shots at well known instructors and the minute they fire back or anyone counters their arguments, they immediately pull the victim card (and likely alert the mods). Monte is the only one with thick enough skin to stick around, but everyone has their limits. It's astonishing when a bunch of internet nobodies with no golf accolades what so ever will gang together and put a target on a very helpful poster's back. 

[RoyalTroon]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

With a 2 hand swing I even cast it poorly from a freezer position at p5.

 

The club head moves inward toward you, and not out toward the ball, from that point while your trail side works out toward the ball.  It's one of the centripetal pieces. 

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

9 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Oddly enough Dan (and many other great instructors) have simply stopped posting in this forum and I am guessing it's threads exactly like this one that ultimately pushed them away.

 

A handful of people seem to make it their MO to take pop shots at well known instructors and the minute they fire back or anyone counters their arguments, they immediately pull the victim card (and likely alert the mods). Monte is the only one with thick enough skin to stick around, but everyone has their limits. It's astonishing when a bunch of internet nobodies with no golf accolades what so ever will gang together and put a target on a very helpful poster's back. 

 

Maybe Monte has already checked out if he's now just posting his credentials as responses.

 

I didn't take a "pop shot".  I responded appropriately to a poor post.

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[MK7Golf21]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Oddly enough Dan (and many other great instructors) have simply stopped posting in this forum and I am guessing it's threads exactly like this one that ultimately pushed them away.

 

A handful of people seem to make it their MO to take pop shots at well known instructors and the minute they fire back or anyone counters their arguments, they immediately pull the victim card (and likely alert the mods). Monte is the only one with thick enough skin to stick around, but everyone has their limits. It's astonishing when a bunch of internet nobodies with no golf accolades what so ever will gang together and put a target on a very helpful poster's back. 

 

Don't think that was the case, Dan liked the debate. He left shortly after GG got super popular and even people that use to be on his side started arguing with him. Mod's also cracked down on the instruction forum around that time because it was needed from all the GG stuff.

[Krt22]

10 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

Thank you for the genuine response.

 

Why would you have to hit it fat if you did everything else right but still casted?  Isn't that more for flipping?

 

 

I classify a flip as a movement to close the face, where as the wrists unloading directly influence the swing radius. In a good swing the handle is moving up at impact as the club head kicks down, if the starts to kick down too early before the handle starts to move up, you will bottom out early.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

6 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I classify a flip as a movement to close the face, where as the wrists unloading directly influence the swing radius. In a good swing the handle is moving up at impact as the club head kicks down, if the starts to kick down too early before the handle starts to move up, you will bottom out early.

 

Interesting.  I can say I hit it decently when I do a drill of not having a wrist hinge on the way back and then starting the hinge on the way down to artificially force myself to not cast.  This seems like a poor habit to get into though.

 

It's just like when my mind thinks about hitting the ball, unloading the hands is the first instinct.

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[Krt22]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

Maybe Monte has already checked out if he's now just posting his credentials as responses.

And if you were in his shoes, do you really blame him? He doesn't owe anyone in here anything, so when he tries to be helpful and immediately get's questioned, what incentive does he have to entertain those types of prodding posts and questions? Your post where you literally demanded a detailed response with pictures came across as incredibly entitled. You took one lesson with him,  does that mean he owes you a full response in a public domain?

[MPStrat]

16 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Oddly enough Dan (and many other great instructors) have simply stopped posting in this forum and I am guessing it's threads exactly like this one that ultimately pushed them away

Without revealing any names, I have asked this question to a couple of them, encouraging them to come back to share their needed point of view. It is not threads like this and I’ll leave it at that. 
 

No one is taking shots at Monte. The lack of awareness here is astonishing. The stench around here  isn’t from Monte. 

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

12 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

And if you were in his shoes, do you really blame him? He doesn't owe anyone in here anything, so when he tries to be helpful and immediately get's questioned, what incentive does he have to entertain those types of prodding posts and questions? Your post where you literally demanded a detailed response with pictures came across as incredibly entitled. You took one lesson with him,  does that mean he owes you a full response in a public domain?

 

The post I made that he responded to was a polite series of comments and questions.  There's nothing entitled about it.  Nothing I said was crazy or fringe.

 

I don't think he owes me anything (nor did I ever demand anything) and didn't care if he responded at all.  I never "demanded" anything. But his response was weak and shouldn't be celebrated on here.  

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

 

But his response was weak and shouldn't be celebrated on here.  

 

 

It really wasn't, it just wasn't what you were looking to hear. 

 

And not a single person "celebrated" it or any other post similar to it. It's the reality of the golf swing, it's a complex chain of causes and effects, which isn't easily diagnosed via text on the internet. 

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

4 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

It really wasn't, it just wasn't what you were looking to hear. 

 

And not a single person "celebrated" it or any other post similar to it. It's the reality of the golf swing, it's a complex chain of causes and effects, which isn't easily diagnosed via text on the internet. 

 

Citing your credentials is the lowest form of discussion, especially when everyone already knows who you are.

 

And again, many pros would disagree with him.  If he can't or doesn't want to defend a little good-faith prodding then don't make the post.

Edited January 30, 2023 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[CSagan]

If you know the correct motion then you can train in slow motion..film it see if it’s correct. Then gradually speed it up until it reverts back…then slow it back down and keep doing it and so on. 
 

Really the best way to train a pattern change. Same thing you would do if you were learning how to play piano/drums/whatever…do it slow and learn the pattern then you can speed it up. 
 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

This will be my last response here.

 

First, I’m a big boy and get criticized and trashed on social media every day.  

 

I have over 20,000 posts here and I have only cited my credentials a hand full of times.  Do you think that says something about me, or the handful of people to which I responded that way?

 

There’s a big difference between asking questions to learn and questioning the validity of what someone says.  Smart people will see an expert say something that goes against what they think.  The first instinct is to question one’s own thought process not the experts.  Further research and discussion may in fact confirm the invalidity of the expert as none are infallible, but immediately questioning the experts take versus one’s own is called the Dunning Kruger Effect.

 

I am a successful youth football coach.  If a well known REAL football coach says something I don’t agree with, my first step is to see why I think differently and I learn from this EVERY time.  If I was at a function and we were talking football, I disagreed with someone and he explained to me that he has been an analyst in the NFL for 30 years, I wouldn’t take continuous cheap shots at him, I’d try and learn something.  

[MPStrat]

24 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Further research and discussion may in fact confirm the invalidity of the expert as none are infallible, but immediately questioning the experts take versus one’s own is called the Dunning Kruger Effect..  

The OP said he paid you for a lesson and has followed your teaching for some time. I would say he must think a lot of you and your ability as a teacher to do that. 

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

The weird thing is if I do one handed swings, I don't cast at all and hit it decently solid for one hand.  That leads me to believe it's some type of mental block.  With a 2 hand swing I even cast it poorly from a freezer position at p5.

 Of course it's a mental block. If you don't have physical limitations, and other people can do it, then it's a mental block -- even if that block is not understanding the proper motion, or not being willing to let your game suffer while you pursue the correction(s).

 

If you can do what you're after with one hand, then you're probably not letting your wrists move loosely/freely in the swing -- and with one hand, you can't support the weight of the club as easily, and so you go with the way the weight of the club moves your wrist. With two hands, you might be setting your wrists early (for you) and firmly, and then you undo that condition -- or hold it -- early in the downswing in an effort to generate power. You might benefit from setting your wrist late (float-loading the club at the top), and feeling a wiping/slapping kind of release at the ball instead.