More Rules intrigue

[rogolf]

With the new (2023) 1.3c(4), how would you answer this question?

A player is searching for their ball, finds a ball and plays it to the fairway, and then onto the green. On the green, they discover that they have played a wrong ball and say, "Well that's two penalty strokes I didn't need".  They return to the area where the original ball is thought to be. They find another ball and play it to the fairway, only to discover that it is another wrong ball.
How many penalty strokes has the player incurred as a result of these actions? And what Rules/Clarifications apply?

[sui generis]

I agree (in advance) with Davep043. 😉

[davep043]

Seems like a wrong ball, and intervening event, and a wrong ball.  Perhaps followed by a lost ball.  I'll figure out the rule numbers later, I'm tired.

[Colin L]

40 minutes ago, sui generis said:

I agree (in advance) with Davep043. 😉

And I agree (in retrospect) with Davep043.

[Colin L]

It seems a straightforward application of 1.3c(4) - the player breaches a rule by playing a wrong ball, is aware that that they have done so and breaches the same rule again, the awareness being the intervening event.  So straightforward that I am deeply suspicious that as rogolf presents it as a "rules intrigue", I am missing something that makes it less than straightforward.  Perhaps, though,  its a bluff designed to make us think there is something more to it when there isn't.      

[ArtMBgolf]

After all that time, wouldn't he have to declare the original ball lost and go to the tee. 

[davep043]

20 minutes ago, ArtMBgolf said:

After all that time, wouldn't he have to declare the original ball lost and go to the tee. 

Only the time spent actually searching counts, the time is suspended while he continues play with the wrong ball(s).  If the player spent a minute to find the first ball, and another minute to find the second, he'd still have one more minute of search time remaining.

[antip]

2023 changed nothing in the answer to this question. 2*general penalties, rule 6.3 breach twice.

[limegreengent]

Whenever a player tells you that they played a wrong ball alarm bells should automatically ring in the head of a referee.

Some further questions should arise to ensure that the player had not handled the  " wrong ball " before playing.

Most players just do not know the difference between a wrong ball / substituted ball and at this time of the year when preferred lies are on effect ( Europe) - an incorrect ruling is common place.

😟😟😟

Edited February 7, 2023 by limegreengent

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, ArtMBgolf said:

After all that time, wouldn't he have to declare the original ball lost and go to the tee. 

 

This "declaring a ball lost" seems to me stuck in some people's minds like tar....

 

You cannot declare your ball lost. Your ball is lost only if the Rules say it is lost, such as not having been found within 3 minutes, another ball is put in play to substitute your original ball (like re-teeing) or playing a provisional ball closer to hole than your original ball is likely to be.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, antip said:

2023 changed nothing in the answer to this question. 2*general penalties, rule 6.3 breach twice.

 

Indeed, but it provided more clarity via the concept of intervening event.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, limegreengent said:

Most players just do not know the difference between a wrong ball / substituted ball and at this time of the year when preferred lies are on effect ( Europe) - an incorrect ruling is common place.

 

 

I am scratching my head trying to figure out how preferred lies would make you believe you have played a wrong ball. Care to elaborate?

[Hawkeye77]

I'm not answering if I have to actually show my work! [Insert smiley face].

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am scratching my head trying to figure out how preferred lies would make you believe you have played a wrong ball. Care to elaborate?

You pick up a  ball thinking it yours and put it down again thinking you are taking preferred lie relief, what have you actually done?  No more than picking up a stray ball and putting it down again. Realise it’s not yours and go looking for yours and no  harm done.  But play the stray ball after picking it up and putting it down and you are playing  a substituted ball are you not - because you placed it on the ground?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

You pick up a  ball thinking it yours and put it down again thinking you are taking preferred lie relief, what have you actually done?  No more than picking up a stray ball and putting it down again. Realise it’s not yours and go looking for yours and no  harm done.  But play the stray ball after picking it up and putting it down and you are playing  a substituted ball are you not - because you placed it on the ground?

 

That is not a wrong ball situation and that I was asking for. But thank you anyway, it is a plausible case.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is not a wrong ball situation and that I was asking for. But thank you anyway, it is a plausible case.

You asked limegreengent to elaborate why anyone would think it a wrong ball situation.  I dare say he will do so.  Meanwhile, I elaborated on why it isn't. But the obvious reasons why many would take it as a wrong ball situation are a) that the player concerned found a ball that wasn't his and played it and b) the reason for its not being a wrong a ball is somewhat arcane.  

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You asked limegreengent to elaborate why anyone would think it a wrong ball situation.  I dare say he will do so.  Meanwhile, I elaborated on why it isn't. But the obvious reasons why many would take it as a wrong ball situation are a) that the player concerned found a ball that wasn't his and played it and b) the reason for its not being a wrong a ball is somewhat arcane.  

Agree.  Anytime you have a ball in your hand and put that ball into play, it is not a wrong ball.

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, Colin L said:

You asked limegreengent to elaborate why anyone would think it a wrong ball situation.  I dare say he will do so.  Meanwhile, I elaborated on why it isn't. But the obvious reasons why many would take it as a wrong ball situation are a) that the player concerned found a ball that wasn't his and played it and b) the reason for its not being a wrong a ball is somewhat arcane.  

 

So, what you are essentially saying is that people may think it is a wrong ball situation because they do not know the Rules. Ok, what else is new..? 😂

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, what you are essentially saying is that people may think it is a wrong ball situation because they do not know the Rules. Ok, what else is new..? 😂

Long winter?

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Long winter?

 

Winter is always too long, I hate winter. But what's that got to do with this?

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, what you are essentially saying is that people may think it is a wrong ball situation because they do not know the Rules. Ok, what else is new..? 😂

Well, you did ask, didn't you?

 

 

 

[limegreengent]

Thanks Colin 

You have fully replied to Mr Bean  on my behalf reflecting why ordinary ( not rules savvy) players believe  that they play wrong balls .

Wrong balls versus Substituted balls is one of those rules which requires a " tad more knowledge and experience" than just reading the rule book.

Thank you once again👋👋

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by limegreengent

[rogolf]

The correct answer is four penalty strokes for playing two wrong balls with an intervening event between the playing of each wrong ball.  There was some discussion that inferred there was no penalty for playing the second wrong ball because it was a continuation of correcting the playing of the first wrong ball, but that changed in 2023 with the "intervening event" in 1.3c(4).

[antip]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

The correct answer is four penalty strokes for playing two wrong balls with an intervening event between the playing of each wrong ball.  There was some discussion that inferred there was no penalty for playing the second wrong ball because it was a continuation of correcting the playing of the first wrong ball, but that changed in 2023 with the "intervening event" in 1.3c(4).

Even pre-2023, if the player was alert to the first wrong ball prior to returning and playing another wrong ball, there would have been 2 general penalties.

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, rogolf said:

The correct answer is four penalty strokes for playing two wrong balls with an intervening event between the playing of each wrong ball.  There was some discussion that inferred there was no penalty for playing the second wrong ball because it was a continuation of correcting the playing of the first wrong ball, but that changed in 2023 with the "intervening event" in 1.3c(4).

 

May I ask where have you got the impression that there has been a change wrt the ruling on this matter? And/or where this discussion suggesting that change has taken place ?

[rogolf]

From what I recall, It originated as part of correcting the mistake of playing the first wrong ball - strokes and penalties until the correct ball is played do not count, apparently discussed at an USGA workshop several years ago.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

From what I recall, It originated as part of correcting the mistake of playing the first wrong ball - strokes and penalties until the correct ball is played do not count, apparently discussed at an USGA workshop several years ago.

That's an interesting interpretation, but I can't say I've ever heard it discussed.  Interpretation 6.3c(1)/1 from the 2019 Rules makes it clear that any penalty for playing another Wrong Ball is not disregarded, as its not a penalty directly associated with playing the first Wrong Ball..  

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

That's an interesting interpretation, but I can't say I've ever heard it discussed.  Interpretation 6.3c(1)/1 from the 2019 Rules makes it clear that any penalty for playing another Wrong Ball is not disregarded, as its not a penalty directly associated with playing the first Wrong Ball..  

I agree that 6.3c(addresses this, and believe that 6.3c(1)/1 provides the answer to the original question even without an intervening event.

Edited February 9, 2023 by rogolf

[charli]

If you waste all that time and screw up the pace of play go sit in the cart 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, charli said:

If you waste all that time and screw up the pace of play go sit in the cart 

That works in certain situations, but if you fail to hole out in an individual stroke play competition, you are disqualified.

In the games that we play, what you describe is called BIPSIC - Ball In Pocket, Sitting In Cart.  It goes along with BIPLI - Ball In Pocket, Lost Interest.