Dominant leg determines swing mechanics?

[Nels55]

Interesting video:

 

Here are some methods for testing leg dominance:

The tests look a bit ambiguous to me.  For instance I have spent a lot of time swinging standing on my lead leg and also with my feet together but not much standing on my trail leg so I will naturally do better on the tests that I have practiced.  Thinking about it I have seen a number of Mike Adams tests in magazines and such and they always seemed a bit vague to me, it seemed that they were testing to see what has been trained in by the individual golfer and then go with that as the right way for that particular student to swing. 

 

Anyway I would think that your dominant leg is the one that you kick with?  That's always how I have seen it determined in the past.  I guess that in this case it may be a different kind of dominance.

 

Well, do you put any stock in the idea that there is one right way for you to 'post' your swing based on golf leg dominance?  It seems that the golf swing leg dominance would explain why some do well with stack and tilt while others not so much...

[bladehunter]

14 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Interesting video:

 

Here are some methods for testing leg dominance:

The tests look a bit ambiguous to me.  For instance I have spent a lot of time swinging standing on my lead leg and also with my feet together but not much standing on my trail leg so I will naturally do better on the tests that I have practiced.  Thinking about it I have seen a number of Mike Adams tests in magazines and such and they always seemed a bit vague to me, it seemed that they were testing to see what has been trained in by the individual golfer and then go with that as the right way for that particular student to swing. 

 

Anyway I would think that your dominant leg is the one that you kick with?  That's always how I have seen it determined in the past.  I guess that in this case it may be a different kind of dominance.

 

Well, do you put any stock in the idea that there is one right way for you to 'post' your swing based on golf leg dominance?  It seems that the golf swing leg dominance would explain why some do well with stack and tilt while others not so much...

What if you’re ambilegrious ? 
 

 

[Nels55]

Mike Adams talks about the different posts here:

 

He says that they fixed Kuchar, I guess that must be after Dr. Kwon found Kucher to not be using ground forces at all per @glk.  Also interesting about Yani Tseng and Lydia Ko...  I guess that if you are not using the correct post you are basically screwed.

[glk]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Mike Adams talks about the different posts here:

 

He says that they fixed Kuchar, I guess that must be after Dr. Kwon found Kucher to not be using ground forces at all per @glk.  Also interesting about Yani Tseng and Lydia Ko...  I guess that if you are not using the correct post you are basically screwed.

Everyone uses the ground - kuchar uses it poorly compared to peers.   Just looked at his driving stats back to 2004   Matt is still hitting the same mid280s    Don't know what they could have fixed - I got the impression from dr kwon that kuch had little interest in change - he has been in the lab multiple times - do not know dates    Dr kwon talked about the more successful golfers he tested showed pretty much zero interest in change as opposed to folks looking to become establish like mini tour, juniors.

 

to me current motion patterns do not predict what a person is capable of doing.   And if you google dominate leg you won't find agreement on what it is let alone if you can measure it - best I found was that is a preferred motion pattern - we all have motion patterns learned over a lifetime - again they don't predict how one can move just how they move now.  
 

everyone glides, launches, etc    To label someone one or the other misses the purpose of using the ground - to generate torque that is translated to angular acceleration angular momentum of the body/club - how one uses all three and when is important and that is what dr kwon measures.

 

dr kwon measures multiple torques in all 3 planes of motion - the two key to speed are the pivoting torque in the horizontal plane and the grf torque in the frontal plane - of these two the grf torque has the most variability in how it can be created - thus it is a difference maker.    Not just how much but when is important.    
 

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

3 minutes ago, glk said:

Everyone uses the ground - kuchar uses it poorly compared to peers.   Just looked at his driving stats back to 2004   Matt is still hitting the same mid280s    Don't know what they could have fixed - I got the impression from dr kwon that kuch had little interest in change - he has been in the lab multiple times - do not know dates    Dr kwon talked about the more successful golfers he tested showed pretty much zero interest in change as opposed to folks looking to become establish like mini tour, juniors.

 

to me current motion patterns do not predict what a person is capable of doing.   And if you google dominate leg you won't find agreement on what it is let alone if you can measure it - best I found was that is a preferred motion pattern - we all have motion patterns learned over a lifetime - again they don't predict how one can move just how they move now.  
 

everyone glides, launches, etc    To label someone one or the other misses the purpose of using the ground - to generate torque that is translated to angular acceleration angular momentum of the body/club - how one uses all three and when is important and that is what dr kwon measures.

 

dr kwon measures multiple torques in all 3 planes of motion - the two key to speed are the pivoting torque in the horizontal plane and the grf torque in the frontal plane - of these two the grf torque has the most variability in how it can be created - thus it is a difference maker.    Not just how much but when is important.    
 

 

 

 

 

You make a lot of good points.

 

Mike Adams is an interesting character.  I found his classification of various golfers dominant post at the show to be a bit arbitrary.  Anyone who does that test could easily self bias to get the results that they want.  Seems like a lack of data for a black and white classification like that.  LOL I saw a bit of that sort of thing when I was working where some manager would look at some preliminary data and run off to make a bunch of decisions that were later proved completely wrong by the actual data.  

 

I think that matching up swing mechanics with a front, mid or rear post is valid and can help a lot of golfers.  The area in question is the assertion that every golfer has one best way to swing.  That could be but seems pretty hard to prove.

[glk]

19 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

You make a lot of good points.

 

Mike Adams is an interesting character.  I found his classification of various golfers dominant post at the show to be a bit arbitrary.  Anyone who does that test could easily self bias to get the results that they want.  Seems like a lack of data for a black and white classification like that.  LOL I saw a bit of that sort of thing when I was working where some manager would look at some preliminary data and run off to make a bunch of decisions that were later proved completely wrong by the actual data.  

 

I think that matching up swing mechanics with a front, mid or rear post is valid and can help a lot of golfers.  The area in question is the assertion that every golfer has one best way to swing.  That could be but seems pretty hard to prove.

Scott Lynn has been working with him and a couple of years ago talked about doing a paper together - still waiting.      I agree that on best way to swing  -  Dr kwon concluded that the most efficient way to use the ground comes via the stepping  motion he advocates - he has lots of analysis to back it up - and some do that pattern already - everyone uses the ground and muscle to produce their swing - just a spectrum of more muscle to more ground even among the elite swings - his advocated motion does not exclude anyone.    

Edited February 9, 2023 by glk

[Pepperturbo]

Interesting dominate leg assessment.  Lifelong athletes learn early about their dominate side.  Though, I am ambidextrous in many sports activities and writing, my right side is much more dominate.  Right Leg kicks are stronger, and right arm punches are more powerful.  In  martial arts training, my right hand/arm broke larger boards, and throws more powerful punches; yet I was born left-handed.

 

Back in the 90s, my right side power showed up in golf when I discovered and used the reverse overlap grip; thanks to Steve Jones.  Reverse overlap grip takes advantage of dominate right power as I transition and feet push hard into the ground, as I pivot left, my hands powered by right side, accelerate through the ball (the best way I can explain it.)  Makes for a powerful, boring trajectory.  Maybe the only downside is right side limits my pivot/transition left; my belly button points slightly right of forward or down range.

 

PS, thanks for the Mike Adams vid.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[bladehunter]

All jokes aside.  I’m very even handed and legged.   As a young kid I’d fool many on the playground with a left footed bomb over the 2nd basemans head when they expected a right footed pull to shortstop in kickball.   And I bat for more power left handed.  But I clearly write  better right handed.  And I can’t Throw as well left handed.  Alwasy had a good arm right handed.  Can putt left handed no problem and always used that to my advantage at putt putt.  Or playing billiards.  Lefty righty doesn’t matter. 
 

point being. I wonder which side it would show is my dominant?  Or would it ?  

[Nels55]

43 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

All jokes aside.  I’m very even handed and legged.   As a young kid I’d fool many on the playground with a left footed bomb over the 2nd basemans head when they expected a right footed pull to shortstop in kickball.   And I bat for more power left handed.  But I clearly write  better right handed.  And I can’t Throw as well left handed.  Alwasy had a good arm right handed.  Can putt left handed no problem and always used that to my advantage at putt putt.  Or playing billiards.  Lefty righty doesn’t matter. 
 

point being. I wonder which side it would show is my dominant?  Or would it ?  

Well, I suppose you could try doing the tests in the two videos that I posted?  Also if you look at your swing on video it should be possible to see what post you are tending towards.  

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, glk said:

Scott Lynn has been working with him and a couple of years ago talked about doing a paper together - still waiting.      I agree that on best way to swing  -  Dr kwon concluded that the most efficient way to use the ground comes via the stepping  motion he advocates - he has lots of analysis to back it up - and some do that pattern already - everyone uses the ground and muscle to produce their swing - just a spectrum of more muscle to more ground even among the elite swings - his advocated motion does not exclude anyone.    

 

Over the years I have spent a lot of time trying to stay more centered when I swing.  While doing this work I noticed on video that no matter how I turned my hips on the backswing for instance trying to turn around the lead hip in an extreme case I would always move my trail hip over my trail foot as I started to swing through.  LOL this is pretty ugly when the hips move back 10 inches during transition.   This move is a sign of a rear post player from what I have learned watching the videos.  When I let my hips go back initially to where they want to be on my backswing and I let my head drift back a fair amount I hit the ball better and quite a bit farther.  This idea seems to work well with Dr. Kwon's step drills so I guess that I am good to go...

[getitdaily]

Listened to the first severe minutes of that first video and it seems like a "duh concept"... if you stay on your lead side you have to use vertical force. If you get a ton of shift onto your trail side you'll have to use horizontal force.

 

Is it just me or is this rather elementary?

[Nels55]

16 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Listened to the first severe minutes of that first video and it seems like a "duh concept"... if you stay on your lead side you have to use vertical force. If you get a ton of shift onto your trail side you'll have to use horizontal force.

 

Is it just me or is this rather elementary?

LOL like a lot of things in life it's elementary if you already know it. 

 

Their idea seems to be that there are 3 main swing types or posts and everyone is predisposed to one of the the swing types or some blend of two.  Finding out the swing that works best for you and learning the correct mechanics for that swing will cause great shots and pure joy!  Working on mechanics for a swing type that does not fit you will cause much distress and a lot of short drives and bad approach shots.  Nobody wants that!

[getitdaily]

8 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

LOL like a lot of things in life it's elementary if you already know it. 

 

Their idea seems to be that there are 3 main swing types or posts and everyone is predisposed to one of the the swing types or some blend of two.  Finding out the swing that works best for you and learning the correct mechanics for that swing will cause great shots and pure joy!  Working on mechanics for a swing type that does not fit you will cause much distress and a lot of short drives and bad approach shots.  Nobody wants that!

Hmmm...not sure I agree with their premise. I've been a trail side loader with a big lateral shift forever. This off-season I've been transitioning to a lead side load with a lot more vertical. I got to a very high level of play, +2, my old way. My changes are starting to instill and I'm seeing even more consistency...and more distance.

[Nels55]

30 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Hmmm...not sure I agree with their premise. I've been a trail side loader with a big lateral shift forever. This off-season I've been transitioning to a lead side load with a lot more vertical. I got to a very high level of play, +2, my old way. My changes are starting to instill and I'm seeing even more consistency...and more distance.

I am not sure that I agree with their premise either.  I think that their argument would be that if your change to the new movement pattern is successful then you were always lead post and had been swinging incorrectly for years for whatever reason.  Or maybe something has changed causing you to need to change your movement pattern.   

 

Also there is the possibility that you are a freak of nature and can swing in any 'post' that you wish. 

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I am not sure that I agree with their premise either.  I think that their argument would be that if your change to the new movement pattern is successful then you were always lead post and had been swinging incorrectly for years for whatever reason.  Or maybe something has changed causing you to need to change your movement pattern.   

 

Also there is the possibility that you are a freak of nature and can swing in any 'post' that you wish. 

Something did change...I wanted to be more consistent...lol.

 

Maybe I am...I was a +2 in the early 2000s as a drawer. Got to a +2 a year ago as a fader. 

[Nels55]

Pretty good speed increase using ground force here:

I looked that pressure mat up the other day it is $21,800 and the much improved dual force plate is $26,000.  Bummer, just out of my price range...

[Soloman1]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:19 AM, Nels55 said:

Mike Adams talks about the different posts here:

He says that they fixed Kuchar, I guess that must be after Dr. Kwon found Kucher to not be using ground forces at all per @glk.  Also interesting about Yani Tseng and Lydia Ko...  I guess that if you are not using the correct post you are basically screwed.

 

Uh, no. It was before Kwon “found” it.

 

It’s about finding an optimum swing based on movements that match. The static test is different than a dynamic test. People may post differently in a full swing because of a pattern they’ve ingrained, but that may not be optimal or a more natural pivot.

 

They have modified things over the years to continually improve results, based on results. They aren’t trying to prove a theory, they test ideas and no matter how much time that takes, discard ones that don’t prove out. And other times they discover a pattern in the process with an open mind.

 

It’s not a “swing like this” for everyone. It’s “swing like this for you.”

 

I traveled the world with these guys and have seen the results over and over for years. They are the most sincere guys and relentless about making other instructors and people better faster.

[Hawkeye77]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:37 PM, Nels55 said:

 

Well, do you put any stock in the idea that there is one right way for you to 'post' your swing based on golf leg dominance?  It seems that the golf swing leg dominance would explain why some do well with stack and tilt while others not so much...

 

Are you claiming they say that? 

[Nels55]

I found this video very interesting:

 

As far as I can tell my release pattern is the same as taught here.  LOL all these years I have been trying to train myself to stop doing the release that is best for me.  Yikes!

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Uh, no. It was before Kwon “found” it.

 

It’s about finding an optimum swing based on movements that match. The static test is different than a dynamic test. People may post differently in a full swing because of a pattern they’ve ingrained, but that may not be optimal or a more natural pivot.

 

They have modified things over the years to continually improve results, based on results. They aren’t trying to prove a theory, they test ideas and no matter how much time that takes, discard ones that don’t prove out. And other times they discover a pattern in the process with an open mind.

 

It’s not a “swing like this” for everyone. It’s “swing like this for you.”

 

I traveled the world with these guys and have seen the results over and over for years. They are the most sincere guys and relentless about making other instructors and people better faster.

Thanks!

 

I seem to remember Dr. Wright mentioning that he had some connection with Mike Adams.  Do you have any opinion of Wright Balance / Larry Rinker?

[Soloman1]

I know Doc Wright more than Larry. They're both legitimate, intelligent and dedicated to what they do.

[Nels55]

6 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I know Doc Wright more than Larry. They're both legitimate, intelligent and dedicated to what they do.

Just out of curiosity do you use Mike Adams or Wright balance teaching in your own swing? 

[Soloman1]

Doc Wright has good info on stance width and hand sizes that are useful. Mike and Terry’s info is for other components of the swing. It’s okay to use both.

 

At my age, I have an “exterminator” swing. I feel like a man trying kill a cockroach with a crowbar.

 

The first time I shot my age I was 64, so I can get it around pretty good with their info.

[Nels55]

18 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Doc Wright has good info on stance width and hand sizes that are useful. Mike and Terry’s info is for other components of the swing. It’s okay to use both.

 

At my age, I have an “exterminator” swing. I feel like a man trying kill a cockroach with a crowbar.

 

The first time I shot my age I was 64, so I can get it around pretty good with their info.

Nice!  What core or post or whatever are you?

[Soloman1]

I’ve always been a whatever…

 

Center post, side-on grip, equal wingspan/height, 85 IQ.

[Nels55]

On 2/9/2023 at 5:05 PM, getitdaily said:

Something did change...I wanted to be more consistent...lol.

 

Maybe I am...I was a +2 in the early 2000s as a drawer. Got to a +2 a year ago as a fader. 

 

In the video below at about 18:58 they talk about Soren Hansen who was a front post golfer trying to play as a rear post golfer for most of his career.  He picked up 9mph in a few minutes by changing to front post.  Anyway he made the  Ryder Cup team swinging 'wrong' so I guess that he is even more of a freak of nature then you are!

 

[Divot License]

On 2/12/2023 at 12:14 AM, Nels55 said:

 

In the video below at about 18:58 they talk about Soren Hansen who was a front post golfer trying to play as a rear post golfer for most of his career.  He picked up 9mph in a few minutes by changing to front post.  Anyway he made the  Ryder Cup team swinging 'wrong' so I guess that he is even more of a freak of nature then you are!

 

That's actually my youtube account that has that posted. lol

[Scottbox]

I took a lesson with Scott Lynn. It was great and really helpful. The "leg dominance" thing is mainly about where your hips "want to go" when you turn into your backswing. That's pretty much it. Where your hips want to drift to is, to a large degree, a function of how you're built, and how loose or tight you are in various hip and leg muscles. This sort of determines the matchups that work with your body, and the best forces for you to use on an individual basis, so you're not forced into one type of swing that a particular teacher "wants" to impose on you.

 

I'm a front post player because I have very little external rotation into my trail leg. When I came to Dr. Lynn, I moved a lot of pressure onto my trail foot at the top of the swing (83-85%), but it was all sway because I can't turn that well into the hip. Then have I'd slide back. This created a massively in-to-out path and issues with hitting the heel sometimes. When I switched to front post and pushed up and back, my vertical and rotary force numbers went way up, and I struck the ball much better. So I guess I found a helpful matchup.

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Scottbox

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, Scottbox said:

I took a lesson with Scott Lynn. It was great and really helpful. The "leg dominance" thing is mainly about where your hips "want to go" when you turn into your backswing. That's pretty much it. Where your hips want to drift to is, to a large degree, a function of how you're built, and how loose or tight you are in various hip and leg muscles. This sort of determines the matchups that work with your body, and the best forces for you to use on an individual basis, so you're not forced into one type of swing that a particular teacher "wants" to impose on you.

 

I'm a front post player because I have very little external rotation into my trail leg. When I came to Dr. Lynn, I moved a lot of pressure onto my trail foot at the top of the swing (83-85%), but it was all sway because I can't turn that well into the hip. Then have I'd slide back. This created a massively in-to-out path and issues with hitting the heel sometimes. When I switched to front post and pushed up and back, my vertical and rotary force numbers went way up, and I struck the ball much better. So I guess I found a helpful matchup.

 

 

 

Sounds like a great experience.  I really Dr. Lynn's approach to golf, he seems to be always trying to learn and at the same time he likes to help others to improve their swings using the knowledge that he has accumulated up to this point.  

 

Front post is similar to Wright Balance upper core swing.  Have you checked out any of Larry Rinker's videos at all?  

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, Divot License said:

That's actually my youtube account that has that posted. lol

Cool!  I took a look and you seem to have a number of videos that I will enjoy checking out.  Thanks!