Slope function legal before round starts?

[Shilgy]

As I was reading a few threads in the launch monitor and such forum it struck me……if you used your rangefinder before the first tee shot and slope was turned on would there be a penalty since it was not during the round?  Seems a bit unfair that in a shotgun start some groups could access slope on a hilly par 3 for instance if it was their first hole.

 

Just a mindless thread while I watch the Players championship.  Pretty sure mine is turned off as our course is fairly flat but I need to be certain it’s turned off before play in club championship tomorrow.

[AzRoger]

35 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

As I was reading a few threads in the launch monitor and such forum it struck me……if you used your rangefinder before the first tee shot and slope was turned on would there be a penalty since it was not during the round?  Seems a bit unfair that in a shotgun start some groups could access slope on a hilly par 3 for instance if it was their first hole.

 

It's a penalty if the slope function was used to determine the distance of the any shot, doesn't matter if it's your first or last shot.

[Mr. Bean]

37 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

It's a penalty if the slope function was used to determine the distance of the any shot, doesn't matter if it's your first or last shot.

 

Can you quote a Rule to support your interpretation? I can only find Rules about during a round, not before or after.

 

Rule 4.3a says in part: "Common examples of uses of equipment that are allowed and not allowed during a player’s round under this Rule are:

 

(1) Distance and Directional Information.

• Allowed. Getting information on distance or direction (such as from a distance-measuring device or compass).
• Not Allowed.
  • Measuring elevation changes,"

 

There is no Rule saying that you could not visit the course of the competition day before and measure all elevations possible.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Halebopp]

The part of 4.3 Bean was referring to:

 

(3) Information Gathered Before or During Round.

• Allowed.
  • Using information that was gathered before the round (such as playing information from previous rounds, swing tips or club recommendations)

[Shilgy]

48 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

It's a penalty if the slope function was used to determine the distance of the any shot, doesn't matter if it's your first or last shot.

Ah, but this question was before the round started….before the first stroke of the day is not during the round.

[antip]

As noted above, 4.3 breaches can't occur before the round commences.

But here's something quirky: 10.2a Advice is similarly restricted, pre-round - no issue. But the same does not apply to 10.2b breaches - they are not limited to during the round but are for getting help with a stroke. For example, you lay a club down for alignment for your first stroke from the first tee, then pick it up before the stroke and take the shot. You get the general penalty.

[Mr. Bean]

25 minutes ago, antip said:

But here's something quirky: 10.2a Advice is similarly restricted, pre-round - no issue. But the same does not apply to 10.2b breaches - they are not limited to during the round but are for getting help with a stroke. For example, you lay a club down for alignment for your first stroke from the first tee, then pick it up before the stroke and take the shot. You get the general penalty.

 

The way I see it there is a valid reason for those both.

10.2a: It would be impossible to set a time limit to cover Advice before a round.

10.2b: Laying down a club for a stroke is bound to that particular stroke thus there is no need for a time limit, it is all about that stroke.

[davep043]

I have nothing to add, its been covered.  I just love reading a bunch of knowledgeable rules posts all in a row.

[antip]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The way I see it there is a valid reason for those both.

10.2a: It would be impossible to set a time limit to cover Advice before a round.

10.2b: Laying down a club for a stroke is bound to that particular stroke thus there is no need for a time limit, it is all about that stroke.

But, equally, that slope assistance, advice assistance and laying down a club could all involve providing assistance for the first stroke of a round - but they are treated differently. 

[Dpavs]

Here is something that might apply and change opinions... it does mine anyway.

From the 2019 Update UNDERSTANDING THE RULES OF DMDs - (full copy attached)2019_UPDATE_USGA_DMD_FINAL.pdf

 

"A player may use a device that is capable of operating a prohibited function,
provided these specific functions are not accessed by the player during the
round. “Access” is interpreted to mean that the player has viewed or
otherwise used the information generated by a prohibited function, or the
player uses a device where such output is displayed."

 

The phrase "or otherwise used the information generated" does not seem to be restricted to measurements made after the first stroke. Or am I reading this wrong?

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

Here is something that might apply and change opinions... it does mine anyway.

From the 2019 Update UNDERSTANDING THE RULES OF DMDs - (full copy attached)2019_UPDATE_USGA_DMD_FINAL.pdf

 

"A player may use a device that is capable of operating a prohibited function,
provided these specific functions are not accessed by the player during the
round. “Access” is interpreted to mean that the player has viewed or
otherwise used the information generated by a prohibited function, or the
player uses a device where such output is displayed."

 

The phrase "or otherwise used the information generated" does not seem to be restricted to measurements made after the first stroke. Or am I reading this wrong?

What matters isn't this commentary, but the actual Rule.  4.3a specifically outlines prohibitions on using certain equipment "during a round".  If the round hasn't started, 4.3 is not yet in effect.  Similarly, 10.2 covers asking or giving Advice during a Round.  

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

Here is something that might apply and change opinions... it does mine anyway.

From the 2019 Update UNDERSTANDING THE RULES OF DMDs - (full copy attached)2019_UPDATE_USGA_DMD_FINAL.pdf

 

"A player may use a device that is capable of operating a prohibited function,
provided these specific functions are not accessed by the player during the
round. “Access” is interpreted to mean that the player has viewed or
otherwise used the information generated by a prohibited function, or the
player uses a device where such output is displayed."

 

The phrase "or otherwise used the information generated" does not seem to be restricted to measurements made after the first stroke. Or am I reading this wrong?

 

It is very dangerous to separate a bunch of phrases from the entire concept. In that text it is said that it means DURING THE ROUND.

 

Just think of it. If I go to that course a week before the competition and use my slope function, are you going to disqualify me if I use that information gathered a week before in the actual competition?

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Dpavs]

16 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It is very dangerous to separate a bunch of phrases from the entire concept. In that text it is said that it means DURING THE ROUND.

 

Just think of it. If I go to that course a week before the competition and use my slope function, are you going to disqualify me if I use that information gathered a week before in the actual competition?

 

 

I probably was not clear enough regarding the way I am reading this.

The entire text block is as follows:

"A player may use a device that is capable of operating a prohibited function,
provided these specific functions are not accessed by the player during the
round. “Access” is interpreted to mean that the player has viewed or
otherwise used the information generated by a prohibited function, or the
player uses a device where such output is displayed."

 

The first underlined part, as you pointed out, refers to accessing the information during a round. The second part I underlined clarifies that access is interpreted to mean viewing or use of the information generated by a prohibited function. So while the information may not have been generated during the round, if used to determine the first stroke is it not being used during the round?

 

16 hours ago, davep043 said:

What matters isn't this commentary, but the actual Rule.  4.3a specifically outlines prohibitions on using certain equipment "during a round".  If the round hasn't started, 4.3 is not yet in effect.  Similarly, 10.2 covers asking or giving Advice during a Round.  

 

I agree, but this is more than a commentary, it's an interpretation specifically provided by the USGA to help everyone determine how to interpret the rule isn't it?

 

I am not convinced 100% one way or the other on this to be honest but I did find the interpretation to be intertesting and to perhaps muddy the water just enough for me.

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

I agree, but this is more than a commentary, it's an interpretation specifically provided by the USGA to help everyone determine how to interpret the rule isn't it?

This is what the USGA often calls an "infographic", its an explanation to help players to understand the Rule, especially changes to a Rule.  They're not intended to be a substitute for a Rule, merely an explanation.  2019 was the first time that electric range-finders were specifically allowed under the Rules, prior to that they were allowed only if a Local Rule was invoked. The more important part of this specific publication addresses what types of devices and/or functions are allowed, and the restrictions on using them during the round.

Getting into parsing of the verbiage, it says you can't access specific features during a round.  It goes on to an "internal definition" of how to interpret the word "access", but  that internal definition doesn't alter the previous sentence, it still applies to what you can do during the round.  To me, the bit about "otherwise using the information" refers to something like asking your caddie "What's the slope-adjusted yardage?"  You haven't viewed the device, but you're still using the information gathered.

Beyond that, lets go to 4.3a(3), which specifically allows a player to use pretty much any information that was gathered before the Round.  You can use that information for any stroke you play, from your first stroke to your last stroke.

 

[Dpavs]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is what the USGA often calls an "infographic", its an explanation to help players to understand the Rule, especially changes to a Rule.  They're not intended to be a substitute for a Rule, merely an explanation.  2019 was the first time that electric range-finders were specifically allowed under the Rules, prior to that they were allowed only if a Local Rule was invoked. The more important part of this specific publication addresses what types of devices and/or functions are allowed, and the restrictions on using them during the round.

Getting into parsing of the verbiage, it says you can't access specific features during a round.  It goes on to an "internal definition" of how to interpret the word "access", but  that internal definition doesn't alter the previous sentence, it still applies to what you can do during the round.  To me, the bit about "otherwise using the information" refers to something like asking your caddie "What's the slope-adjusted yardage?"  You haven't viewed the device, but you're still using the information gathered.

Beyond that, lets go to 4.3a(3), which specifically allows a player to use pretty much any information that was gathered before the Round.  You can use that information for any stroke you play, from your first stroke to your last stroke.

 

 

I do understand what you are saying in regards to 4.3a(3) but the whole thing still feels muddy to me though. It just seems unreasonable that the USGA intended that, regarding a device/function whose use is illegal to use during a round, it be legal to go out the night before after all the pins have been placed and use that same illegal device/function to obtain all the information you could obtain during the round using the same device.

 

I also feel that there is a lot of hat hanging here too in regards to 4.3a's wording -

 

a. Allowed and Prohibited Uses of Equipment

A player may use equipment to help them play during a round, except that a player must not create a potential advantage....

 

My curiosity here is does the above really mean the same thing as a slightly alternative wording (which is the way I think it is generally being read/interpreted as in this thread) as follows-

 

A player may use equipment during a round to help them play, except that a player must not create a potential advantage...

 

I think it may be the case under the first wording (which again is the wording in the rule) that it does not matter that the information obtained from the equipment may have been obtained prior to the start of a round, it only matters when the information obtained is used. The second wording would, to me,  clearly exonerate the use of the otherwise illegal device information as long as it was not obtained during the round.

 

I agree it comes back to what you have said though.... and boils down to can you use information which it would be illegal to obtain during a round for play during a round and I guess I am not sure 4.3a(3) is really saying that is ok to do.

 

I may change my mind though... just as of right now it's muddy to me that this would be the USGA's intention.

 

Appreciate your attempt to clarify it all though! 🙂

 

 

[davep043]

For the most part, the Rules define what a player may or may not do during a specific time period, during a Round, and the Rules specifically define when the Round begins and ends.  Its extremely rare that a rule controls what a player is allowed to do at other times.  A few that come to mind are Rule 5 prohibitions on Practicing on the Course, a few Rule 10 limitations that apply to every stroke, including the first of the day.  Model Local Rule G-11 limits the use of handwritten notes to aid in putting, specifically the ways in which a Player can gather information prior to the Round.  But you can use a non-conforming club, a non-conforming ball, anchor your putting stroke, stand astride the line of play, ask for or give advice, and lots more as long as you're not doing it during the Round.  I just think you're trying to read something that isn't there

13 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

I agree it comes back to what you have said though.... and boils down to can you use information which it would be illegal to obtain during a round for play during a round and I guess I am not sure 4.3a(3) is really saying that is ok to do.

As a general Rule, if the Rule doesn't say something is DISallowed, then it is allowed.  

[Dpavs]

24 minutes ago, davep043 said:

For the most part, the Rules define what a player may or may not do during a specific time period, during a Round, and the Rules specifically define when the Round begins and ends.  Its extremely rare that a rule controls what a player is allowed to do at other times.  A few that come to mind are Rule 5 prohibitions on Practicing on the Course, a few Rule 10 limitations that apply to every stroke, including the first of the day.  Model Local Rule G-11 limits the use of handwritten notes to aid in putting, specifically the ways in which a Player can gather information prior to the Round.  But you can use a non-conforming club, a non-conforming ball, anchor your putting stroke, stand astride the line of play, ask for or give advice, and lots more as long as you're not doing it during the Round.  I just think you're trying to read something that isn't there

As a general Rule, if the Rule doesn't say something is DISallowed, then it is allowed.  

 

I am not really trying to read something into anything, just sorting it out in my own head!   

 

 

Again, I understand where you are coming from though and I appreciate your perspective and information!

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

I agree it comes back to what you have said though.... and boils down to can you use information which it would be illegal to obtain during a round for play during a round and I guess I am not sure 4.3a(3) is really saying that is ok to do.

 

I may change my mind though... just as of right now it's muddy to me that this would be the USGA's intention.

 

Appreciate your attempt to clarify it all though!

🙂

 

 

The first bullet point of 4.3a(3) deals with before the round and  explicitly states that you are allowed to use information gathered before a round and allowed to gather information to process after the round to help you later on. There's no  qualification as to how you gather it.  Seems admirably clear to me.

 

 

[Schulzmc]

3 hours ago, Dpavs said:

I think it may be the case under the first wording (which again is the wording in the rule) that it does not matter that the information obtained from the equipment may have been obtained prior to the start of a round, it only matters when the information obtained is used.

I know from experience that my friend's range finder with slope always says to at 7 yards to the shot on a particular par 3 on our course. Even though my range finder had never had that function, how could I avoid using that information, obtained prior to the round, during a competitive round at my course?

 

Thinking: "Hmmm... my range finder says 157. Don't add seven, don't add seven, don't add seven..."

[Dpavs]

6 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I know from experience that my friend's range finder with slope always says to at 7 yards to the shot on a particular par 3 on our course. Even though my range finder had never had that function, how could I avoid using that information, obtained prior to the round, during a competitive round at my course?

 

Thinking: "Hmmm... my range finder says 157. Don't add seven, don't add seven, don't add seven..."

 

 

I think you are correlating what you personally know from experience to an actual measurement returned by a device... while they may result in the same number (though a different device would return a different result) I think that the two are not the same thing. You could equally know that because it's uphill "x" yards it will play 7 yards longer and have committed that to memory. That has never been illegal under any circumstances that I am aware of.

[Schulzmc]

3 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

 

 

I think you are correlating what you personally know from experience to an actual measurement returned by a device... while they may result in the same number (though a different device would return a different result) I think that the two are not the same thing. You could equally know that because it's uphill "x" yards it will play 7 yards longer and have committed that to memory. That has never been illegal under any circumstances that I am aware of.

 Yeah - I get that. But would it be a different conclusion if it was my range finder that I used on the course the day before? Now that is an actual measurement returned by a device. Or four hours earlier that same day? Or five minutes before I teed off? That's the point I'm trying (maybe not too clearly) to make.

[rogolf]

Does anyone really think that PGA Tour caddies are not using rangefinders with slope before the tournament days and noting that in their yardage books?  As others have noted, it is permitted.

[Dpavs]

14 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

 Yeah - I get that. But would it be a different conclusion if it was my range finder that I used on the course the day before? Now that is an actual measurement returned by a device. Or four hours earlier that same day? Or five minutes before I teed off? That's the point I'm trying (maybe not too clearly) to make.

 

Sure I get you!

I was actually thinking that given what is being discussed here, the prohibition of using slope during a round begins to seem foolish.

I mean if you can walk the course and get all the same measurements before play begins... what's the point? Sure you could not get every possible data point but you sure could get the most relevant and needed ones.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Dpavs said:

 

I am not really trying to read something into anything, just sorting it out in my own head!   

 

 

 

Why don't you just believe in what you are being told by those who know how it is..?

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Dpavs said:

I was actually thinking that given what is being discussed here, the prohibition of using slope during a round begins to seem foolish.

I mean if you can walk the course and get all the same measurements before play begins... what's the point? Sure you could not get every possible data point but you sure could get the most relevant and needed ones.

 

You are posing a good and relevant question here. Why a player may not use all the possible devices to make their shots easier?

 

Maybe the answer lies in the idea of golf. It is the player who makes the shot and it is up to that player to decide how that shot is going to be made. The big question (you posed) is which part is that player allowed to gather by using various methods and which part they just need to play by the heart.

 

Writing down notes on practice rounds has been the habit of good players for centuries. It is only fair to ask why notes from practice rounds are allowed but those exactly same notes acquired at the scene by sophisticated electronic devices is not allowed. Personally I have no clue. Maybe it is about trying to avoid slow play, trying to maintain the historic aspect of golf or something entirely else, I honestly do not know.

 

 

 

[Dpavs]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

Why don't you just believe in what you are being told by those who know how it is..?

 

 

Ahh... come on Bean...now you're just playin'..lol. Nobody just accepts things (nor should they). One has to formulate acceptance based on several factors.

 

That said I do give the utmost credence to what the experts here have to say. 😉

[Colin L]

 

11 hours ago, Dpavs said:

 

Sure I get you!

I was actually thinking that given what is being discussed here, the prohibition of using slope during a round begins to seem foolish.

I mean if you can walk the course and get all the same measurements before play begins... what's the point? Sure you could not get every possible data point but you sure could get the most relevant and needed ones.

The test of the performance is the unaided performance.  You can acquire your  skills and knowledge in any way you wish using whatever kit you like but on the day the test is hitting a conforming golf ball with your choice from up to 14 conforming golf clubs so that it goes where you want it to without artificial aids to help you make that choice and make your shot.   The rule makers can legislate to maintain that principle of golf as a test of a set of unaided skills; no-one would ever think of legislating to limit how and with what a player acquires them.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by Colin L

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:14 AM, antip said:

As noted above, 4.3 breaches can't occur before the round commences.

But here's something quirky: 10.2a Advice is similarly restricted, pre-round - no issue. But the same does not apply to 10.2b breaches - they are not limited to during the round but are for getting help with a stroke. For example, you lay a club down for alignment for your first stroke from the first tee, then pick it up before the stroke and take the shot. You get the general penalty.

 

Now that's very interesting.

 

The OP's question was about using the slope function on a rangefinder right before starting the round (but before the first shot).

 

As you said, using an alignment aid before taking the first shot of the round is illegal under 10.2b.

 

However, from what I gather here, it would be legal for the player to use the slope function on the first tee right before taking his first shot.

 

What happens in the following scenario:

 

The player is due to tee off at 9.00.00am

 

Per the RoG:

A player’s round starts when the player makes a stroke to start his or her first hole (see Rule 6.1a).

The player must start at (and not before) his or her starting time:

• This means that the player must be ready to play at the starting time and starting point set by the Committee.

• A starting time set by the Committee is treated as an exact time (for example, 9 am means 9:00:00 am, not any time until 9:01 am).

Does that mean if the player used slope function before his tee shot yet after 9.00.00am, he is in breach of Rule 4.3a?

 

I guess I'm curious about which is the more "dominant" decider in determining when the round starts, time or stroke. I'm assuming it's when the stroke is made.

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

The rule makers can legislate to maintain that principle of golf as a test of a set of unaided skills; no-one would ever think of legislating to limit how and with what a player acquires them.  

 

That is exactly what the RBs have done...

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Now that's very interesting.

 

The OP's question was about using the slope function on a rangefinder right before starting the round (but before the first shot).

 

As you said, using an alignment aid before taking the first shot of the round is illegal under 10.2b.

 

However, from what I gather here, it would be legal for the player to use the slope function on the first tee right before taking his first shot.

 

What happens in the following scenario:

 

The player is due to tee off at 9.00.00am

 

Per the RoG:

A player’s round starts when the player makes a stroke to start his or her first hole (see Rule 6.1a).

The player must start at (and not before) his or her starting time:

• This means that the player must be ready to play at the starting time and starting point set by the Committee.

• A starting time set by the Committee is treated as an exact time (for example, 9 am means 9:00:00 am, not any time until 9:01 am).

Does that mean if the player used slope function before his tee shot yet after 9.00.00am, he is in breach of Rule 4.3a?

 

I guess I'm curious about which is the more "dominant" decider in determining when the round starts, time or stroke. I'm assuming it's when the stroke is made.

 

 

 

 

So you think there is something unclear in this sentence:

 

"A player’s round starts when the player makes a stroke to start his or her first hole"

 

?