Help with OB wording scenario

[Augster]

Hey,

 

I’m the new Rules czar at my club and me and the other guy didn’t see eye to eye on a couple of things at my club. This one specifically. 
 

On the 10th hole, there is a parking lot on the left. The card only says OB is, “The parking lot on 10”. 
 

The parking lot has a raised curb all the way around it. Is that part of the lot? Nobody actually “parks” on the curb. I’m thinking of changing the clarification of OB to “The parking lot and curb on 10”. Good enough? Better suggestions?

 

Additionally, in the corner of the lot right next to the rough on 10, there is a steep downslope from the hole to the lot. The lot is only about 30 yards from the left edge of the fairway. If your ball is left and going left, there’s a good chance it’s going to try to end up in the lot. 
 

In the steepest part, there is a 1 tie “retaining wall” to keep the hill from eroding into the lot. Here are a couple pics. 

This is the corner where the ties meet. 

 

 

As you can see, the ties aren’t connected to the lot. They are on the course side of the curb. They are working as a retaining wall, not as a parking lot. They are made out of wood, not cement and tar. Etc. etc. 

 

Previously to now, the “ruling” would be if your ball rolled down the hill and was stopped up against the railroad tie, your only relief was an unplayable as the previous guy said that the retaining wall defined OB and was part of the parking lot. 
 

I completely disagree with this. I know it COULD be defined as part of the lot, but our rules only say “the parking lot is OB”. 
 

Is there a right or wrong here? Is there a good way to word our defined OB to NOT include the retaining wall? I’d like it known that the retaining wall does not define OB and is an immovable obstruction. (Once they get the construction on the area done). 
 

I mean, it’s not really a big deal. Maybe 4-5 balls all summer get stopped by the wall/railroad tie. More often the ball just bounces off the hill and over the wall into the lot. 
 

But to those few golfers that get lucky enough for the ties to stop their ball in play, I feel they should get a free drop from the retaining wall. 
 

Thanks for any help. 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Augster

[Mr. Bean]

If the margin is unclear you must make it clear. Use white stakes.

[Colin L]

The fact of there being the disputes you describe  shows that you must have a more precise definition of the boundary.   As above - use white stakes to form the boundary short of the horrible mess you've illustrated.  Maybe change it when the renovation is complete.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Colin L

[antip]

Your objective is clarity, plain and simple. Stakes are a good way to go if you have intelligent folk placing them and intelligent knowledge golfers applying the rules in that area. But you then need to know they are being maintained.

 

If you have any doubts about those pre-requisites (many clubs fall in this camp), I think the easiest way to go from those photos is define the OOB as the parking lot and the concrete kerb. Any ball on the course side that finishes against or with interference from the wooden sleepers would get free relief. Any ball that finishes overhanging the course without any interference with the sleepers (ie interference with kerb only) gets no relief. Setting it up this way is likely to be the easiest to apply and maintain.

[Mr. Bean]

It is my experience that the more words one uses to describe an OB margin (or more or less anything) the more blurred and prone to interpretation the instruction will become.

 

White stakes are not only very clear marking but also gives a hint to the player that a provisional ball may be in order if their ball heads towards the stakes. Also they do not change once the renovation is ongoing or finished. Furthermore they can be moved whenever desired with no change in Local Rules.

 

It is certainly true that markings like stakes need to be maintained but same goes for any marking that is not permanent. So I would not worry about that.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Your objective is clarity, plain and simple. Stakes are a good way to go if you have intelligent folk placing them and intelligent knowledge golfers applying the rules in that area. But you then need to know they are being maintained.

 

If you have any doubts about those pre-requisites (many clubs fall in this camp), I think the easiest way to go from those photos is define the OOB as the parking lot and the concrete kerb. Any ball on the course side that finishes against or with interference from the wooden sleepers would get free relief. Any ball that finishes overhanging the course without any interference with the sleepers (ie interference with kerb only) gets no relief. Setting it up this way is likely to be the easiest to apply and maintain.

I would agree but would suggest that depending on the orientation, particularly to the left of the picture, there may be a  problem with finding the npcr not nearer the hole.  It may well be that stakes would need to be 1cl (say) from the sleepers.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

Apart from the white stakes that solve the issue, can't you just define an area around the railroad ties as ground under repair? Then fix the area properly and lose the "retaining wall" - it's not a retaining wall, lol, just a baling wire fix - I know you aren't the super or whomever is in charge, but until its fixed right, maybe correctly identifying the area as GUR will poke someone into fixing it - the right way!

Edited April 20, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Apart from the white stakes that solve the issue, can't you just define an area around the railroad ties as ground under repair? Then fix the area properly and lose the "retaining wall" - it's not a retaining wall, lol, just a baling wire fix - I know you aren't the super or whomever is in charge, but until its fixed right, maybe correctly identifying the area as GUR will poke someone into fixing it - the right way!

Regardless of the OB issue, that area needs to be GUR protem and then fixed properly. 

Why is so worn? Is it a shoe changing area or players getting their clubs out of their cars?

[Hawkeye77]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

Regardless of the OB issue, that area needs to be GUR protem and then fixed properly. 

Why is so worn? Is it a shoe changing area or players getting their clubs out of their cars?

Looks like a drainage issue, but hard to tell for sure.  We still have a hole in one of our fairways where the course has "intended" to fix a tile for five years - never understood why simple and necessary maintenance issue go ignored.

 

Also can't believe @Augster hasn't whipped the club into shape about fixing this problem - no shrinking violet!

[Augster]

That area of the lot, all winter, is where they store the sand for the “salt/sand mix” they use on roads. Apparently one of the diggers they use to load the trucks hit that one tie and it’s knocked out of place. The tie that angles up the hill will be placed back in line with the other ties next to the curb. 
 

It’ll be put back soon. The “retaining wall” is really only one tie in that area to help with erosion. 
 

That’s my only problem with white stakes, there’s no way to place them keeping the railroad ties in bounds. Also, as you all described, keeping the stakes in the same place through mowings etc. isn’t any good. 

 

I guess, since everyone in our club knows the lot is OB, I could just paint a white line on top of the curb. That would leave the railroad ties in bounds, and make it easy for anyone just looking at it to make the decision if their ball is in or out. No need to look at the local rules sheet. 
 

Thanks for the help!
 

 

 

[Newby]

24 minutes ago, Augster said:

I guess, since everyone in our club knows the lot is OB, I could just paint a white line on top of the curb. That would leave the railroad ties in bounds, and make it easy for anyone just looking at it to make the decision if their ball is in or out. No need to look at the local rules sheet. 
 

 

Sounds good but I am still a little concerned re relief from the timber baulk(s) to the left in the second picture. From the angle shown would a player be able to get relief not nearer the hole?

[szaino]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

If the margin is unclear you must make it clear. Use white stakes.

This !

 

Will take five minutes to pound some stakes in the ground. The original post here probably took longer to type. And while you are at it, move the one stray RR tie to the OB side of the stake.

Edited April 20, 2023 by szaino
add

[rogolf]

55 minutes ago, Augster said:

That area of the lot, all winter, is where they store the sand for the “salt/sand mix” they use on roads. Apparently one of the diggers they use to load the trucks hit that one tie and it’s knocked out of place. The tie that angles up the hill will be placed back in line with the other ties next to the curb. 
 

It’ll be put back soon. The “retaining wall” is really only one tie in that area to help with erosion. 
 

That’s my only problem with white stakes, there’s no way to place them keeping the railroad ties in bounds. Also, as you all described, keeping the stakes in the same place through mowings etc. isn’t any good. 

 

I guess, since everyone in our club knows the lot is OB, I could just paint a white line on top of the curb. That would leave the railroad ties in bounds, and make it easy for anyone just looking at it to make the decision if their ball is in or out. No need to look at the local rules sheet. 
 

Thanks for the help!
 

 

 

We were taught to never paint on anything permanent.

Our first hole has the entrance road along it.  We put white stakes to indicate (not define) out of bounds and our card says, "A ball lying on or beyond the road is out of bounds."  Substitute "curb" for "road"?

[Abh159]

My opinion...

 

First choice - white stakes as just about everyone else has suggested

 

Second choice - paint a white line just inside (the course side) of the railroad ties. 

 

I think having any part of the lot or border (railroad ties) be in bounds is just asking for trouble and controversy. 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

That area of the lot, all winter, is where they store the sand for the “salt/sand mix” they use on roads. Apparently one of the diggers they use to load the trucks hit that one tie and it’s knocked out of place. The tie that angles up the hill will be placed back in line with the other ties next to the curb. 
 

It’ll be put back soon. The “retaining wall” is really only one tie in that area to help with erosion. 
 

That’s my only problem with white stakes, there’s no way to place them keeping the railroad ties in bounds. Also, as you all described, keeping the stakes in the same place through mowings etc. isn’t any good. 

 

I guess, since everyone in our club knows the lot is OB, I could just paint a white line on top of the curb. That would leave the railroad ties in bounds, and make it easy for anyone just looking at it to make the decision if their ball is in or out. No need to look at the local rules sheet. 
 

Thanks for the help!
 

 

 

It really doesn't help with erosion at all so I hope your club can figure out a more permanent solution or maybe as suggested just dedicate that area as OB as well, but GUR seems less penalizing and more reasonable.

[Augster]

7 hours ago, Newby said:

Sounds good but I am still a little concerned re relief from the timber baulk(s) to the left in the second picture. From the angle shown would a player be able to get relief not nearer the hole?

The picture is the corner of the parking lot closest to the hole. The parking lot line, curb, goes into the corner then to the left. Past the curb on that side is also in bounds. So your ball can run through the lot and back in bounds. Happens a lot really. 
 

Relief from the immovable obstruction retaining wall would just be back up the hill, no closer to the hole. Not a problem. Probably 2 drops each time as the picture doesn’t do the steepness justice. 

[Augster]

6 hours ago, Abh159 said:

My opinion...

 

First choice - white stakes as just about everyone else has suggested

 

Second choice - paint a white line just inside (the course side) of the railroad ties. 

 

I think having any part of the lot or border (railroad ties) be in bounds is just asking for trouble and controversy. 

I want the railroad ties in bounds. In the few times per year they stop a ball from going OB, the ball is lying in the rough on the course. 
 

The problem is with making a swing. The ball is going to be on grass, but right up against the tie. If the tie defines OB, the player’s most likely option is an unplayable. If the tie lies OB, with the stakes on the course side of the ties, again, the player would have to take an unplayable. 
 

I’d prefer to keep the ties in bounds as that will make relief more uniform across groups. If group 1 has a ball up against the tie, and they read the card and it says “The parking lot is OB”, they’ll give the player free relief as the railroad tie certainly isn’t the parking lot. But if group 2 had the exact same scenario, and they were in the same group with my predecessor, he’d rule that the tie defines OB and the player would need to take an unplayable. Even though the only guidance is “The parking lot is OB”. 
 

I’m trying to avoid this potential inequity. Ideally everyone is playing using the same rules and relief. 
 

I do like Rogolf’s verbiage, using “A ball lying on or beyond the curb of the parking lot is OB” will certainly paint the picture I want without any stakes or paint necessary. 
 

Thanks for all the help!

[antip]

Dear Czar Augster (congrats on your elevation)

The "on or beyond" words work fine - but everyone needs to be clear what that means under the Rules. A ball that is on the curb but has any fraction of the ball overhanging the course side edge of the curb is on the course. This could be particularly relevant if there is no wooden sleeper there, or if there is any gap between curb and sleeper and a ball finds its way into the gap. 

[Newby]

8 hours ago, antip said:

Dear Czar Augster (congrats on your elevation)

The "on or beyond" words work fine - but everyone needs to be clear what that means under the Rules. A ball that is on the curb but has any fraction of the ball overhanging the course side edge of the curb is on the course. This could be particularly relevant if there is no wooden sleeper there, or if there is any gap between curb and sleeper and a ball finds its way into the gap. 

Something like 'beyond the course side edge of the kerbstones bordering the parking lot' ?

[antip]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

Something like 'beyond the course side edge of the kerbstones bordering the parking lot' ?

That works too, players still need to be alert to all the ball being beyond to be OOB.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

That works too, players still need to be alert to all the ball being beyond to be OOB.

 

Which creates confusion, uncertainty and personal interpretations. Not the best scenario as the vertical margin is far from straightforward.

 

It certainly would be easier to take a valid stand on this issue by seeing the place live but to me it sounds like the shortest route is not the best one in this case. White stakes need no Local Rule, everybody knows what they mean and it is easy to see when a ball is in bounds.

[Abh159]

15 hours ago, Augster said:

I want the railroad ties in bounds. In the few times per year they stop a ball from going OB, the ball is lying in the rough on the course. 
 

The problem is with making a swing. The ball is going to be on grass, but right up against the tie. If the tie defines OB, the player’s most likely option is an unplayable. If the tie lies OB, with the stakes on the course side of the ties, again, the player would have to take an unplayable. 
 

I’d prefer to keep the ties in bounds as that will make relief more uniform across groups. If group 1 has a ball up against the tie, and they read the card and it says “The parking lot is OB”, they’ll give the player free relief as the railroad tie certainly isn’t the parking lot. But if group 2 had the exact same scenario, and they were in the same group with my predecessor, he’d rule that the tie defines OB and the player would need to take an unplayable. Even though the only guidance is “The parking lot is OB”. 
 

I’m trying to avoid this potential inequity. Ideally everyone is playing using the same rules and relief. 
 

I do like Rogolf’s verbiage, using “A ball lying on or beyond the curb of the parking lot is OB” will certainly paint the picture I want without any stakes or paint necessary. 
 

Thanks for all the help!

 

 

If any part of the ball is touching the line it's in bounds. So you could have a line or steaks inside of the ties and balls that stop against it could still be in bounds. I just think if you're trying to make this as simple as possible a line or steaks right up against (or 1/4 inch inside the ties is the best way to go). 

 

My opinion is that saying “A ball lying on or beyond the curb of the parking lot is OB” would only lead to confusion. What constitutes the curb? Is it the concrete curb? Are the railroad ties the curb? Is the boundary the course side of the curb or the parking lot side of the curb?

[antip]

11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Which creates confusion, uncertainty and personal interpretations. Not the best scenario as the vertical margin is far from straightforward.

 

It certainly would be easier to take a valid stand on this issue by seeing the place live but to me it sounds like the shortest route is not the best one in this case. White stakes need no Local Rule, everybody knows what they mean and it is easy to see when a ball is in bounds.

I'm talking about when a precise assessment must be made. White stakes some distance apart are next to useless for that purpose unless someone has brought the string.

[antip]

11 hours ago, Abh159 said:

 

 

If any part of the ball is touching the line it's in bounds. So you could have a line or steaks inside of the ties and balls that stop against it could still be in bounds. I just think if you're trying to make this as simple as possible a line or steaks right up against (or 1/4 inch inside the ties is the best way to go). 

 

My opinion is that saying “A ball lying on or beyond the curb of the parking lot is OB” would only lead to confusion. What constitutes the curb? Is it the concrete curb? Are the railroad ties the curb? Is the boundary the course side of the curb or the parking lot side of the curb?

Putting stakes on the course side edge of the curb moves the course edge to an unmarked line at ground level that joins up the course side edge of the stakes. If those concrete kerbs are not perfectly straight then there will be a variable amount of non-kerb ground that is out of bounds when stakes are used. The kerb itself is less open to interpretation/error/abuse than an invisible line created by stakes. 

Confirming that the kerb is the concrete is straightforward, not open to misunderstanding, the wooden sleepers are immovable obstructions.

And as an aside, a ball that is "touching" the course is not necessarily on the course. Part of the ball must break that vertical plane to be on the course. RBs have carefully excised language of touching the course is on the course in recent years (and see Diag 18.2a).

[rogolf]

11 hours ago, Abh159 said:

 

 

If any part of the ball is touching the line it's in bounds. So you could have a line or steaks inside of the ties and balls that stop against it could still be in bounds. I just think if you're trying to make this as simple as possible a line or steaks right up against (or 1/4 inch inside the ties is the best way to go). 

 

My opinion is that saying “A ball lying on or beyond the curb of the parking lot is OB” would only lead to confusion. What constitutes the curb? Is it the concrete curb? Are the railroad ties the curb? Is the boundary the course side of the curb or the parking lot side of the curb?

Remember that the line itself is out of bounds.  It's better to say that If any part of the ball is touching the course, it is in bounds.  "Touching" includes more than resting on the ground, it also includes the infinitely thin vertical plane on the course side of the line (the boundary line extends vertically both up and down).

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, antip said:

And as an aside, a ball that is "touching" the course is not necessarily on the course. Part of the ball must break that vertical plane to be on the course. RBs have carefully excised language of touching the course is on the course in recent years (and see Diag 18.2a).

 

That is not in line with the answer I have got from R&A. When has that changed and who has confirmed that from R&A?

 

The diagrams have not changed in 30+ years and yet in 2016 by R&A the ball was deemed to be in bounds if it only touched the course and did not break the plane. I have never seen a diagram in the Rules describing that case, in every diagram a ball is breaking the plane.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, antip said:

I'm talking about when a precise assessment must be made. White stakes some distance apart are next to useless for that purpose unless someone has brought the string.

 

I agree, it may be difficult. It may also be difficult to determine where the margin a concrete structure travels when a ball is sitting on it.

 

There is a course nearby where high level competitions are being organized every year and on one hole the margin of a red PA has often been defined to be the (asphalt) edge of a cart path. The path is so steep that no ball ever stays on it but if it were flat a ball might sit on it in such a wat that defining whether it would be in or out of that PA would be extremely difficult due to unevenness of the edge.

 

Marking can be difficult and I think the decision should not be made based on one-in-a-milloin cases but the marking should be practical, easy to read and preferably in common use.

[antip]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I agree, it may be difficult. It may also be difficult to determine where the margin a concrete structure travels when a ball is sitting on it.

 

There is a course nearby where high level competitions are being organized every year and on one hole the margin of a red PA has often been defined to be the (asphalt) edge of a cart path. The path is so steep that no ball ever stays on it but if it were flat a ball might sit on it in such a wat that defining whether it would be in or out of that PA would be extremely difficult due to unevenness of the edge.

 

Marking can be difficult and I think the decision should not be made based on one-in-a-milloin cases but the marking should be practical, easy to read and preferably in common use.

We are entirely agreed on the objective! I'm just not a fan of white stakes if there is a clear and straight line of wall or concrete that can be adopted.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is not in line with the answer I have got from R&A. When has that changed and who has confirmed that from R&A?

 

The diagrams have not changed in 30+ years and yet in 2016 by R&A the ball was deemed to be in bounds if it only touched the course and did not break the plane. I have never seen a diagram in the Rules describing that case, in every diagram a ball is breaking the plane.

 

 

I appreciate that is not in line with your past-received answer (we've been here before). I have tried your past answer in multiple workshop settings and no-one agreed with it. 

 

I have also been told that the boundary edge is not on the course, and that is why just touching the boundary edge is not on the course.

Here's the most recent written (2023) response on this issue from the USGA:

If my ball come to rest on out of bound line with no part of the ball is touching the fairway, is my ball consider OB?

USGA RESPONSE

The OB edge is essentially a vertical plane that extends above and below the ground based on the course-side edge of that OB line. If any part of the ball breaks that plane onto the course, then it is on the course - regardless of whether the ball is touching the ground at the point it breaks that plane. If no part of the ball is inside the boundary edge then it is OB.

[Colin L]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:36 PM, Augster said:

That’s my only problem with white stakes, there’s no way to place them keeping the railroad ties in bounds.

I haven't quite grasped why you need to keep the ties on the course.