Trying to turn my hips has ruined my golf

[Chazb]

I got on this kick to turn my hips to start the down swing and I was never really a great striker of the ball but I was decent when I  did a lateral shift and was pretty accurate and fairly long when I left the club head go straight down the line.
I am probably doing something wrong I know but turning the hips to start the downswing gives me a big over the top move.Is this just me or do other people have a similar problem.

[trashpar]

I think you need swing keys on what you personally need.   Sounds like your shoulders are probably coming along for the ride with your hips.  Probably not a good  thought for you

[Valtiel]

29 minutes ago, Chazb said:

I am probably doing something wrong I know but turning the hips to start the downswing gives me a big over the top move.

When it comes to the general idea of "turning the hips" in the golf swing, there are a couple approaches that can be considered "correct" and about a dozen that aren't, so the odds unfortunately aren't in your favor. The most common reason for a big over the top move here is that you're "turning" your right hip instead of the left, bringing you towards the ball and throwing your path out. Video would confirm, and bonus points if you happen to have before and after video of your lateral shift feel and your hip turn feel. 

[KD1]

Try "No Turn Cast"

[MonteScheinblum]

Here’s the issue.

 

hips then 10 milliseconds then throax then 10 milliseconds then lead arm

 

Thats 20 milliseconds or .02 seconds between when hips fire and lead arm fires.

 

it’s approximately 250 milliseconds to make a conscious motor function.  
 

So now you’re creating a gap much wider than the 20 milliseconds by actively firing the hips.  There’s a reason 90%+of ams have their hands behind their right thigh at p6 and all elite players are in front.

 

 Then there’s stalling, flipping, casting and arms takeover and everyone says, “Your swing is armsy, get those hips cleared through impact.”  You’d miss it if you did that.

 

Here’s what I don’t understand.  You have Nicklaus and Woods saying stay closed, get left  and fire the arms and release.  You have Rose, objectively one of the most efficient swings ever, telling you stay closed and bring arms and hands down to P6.

 

Yet for 100 years the mantra has been fire hips, passive arms and hold angles.

 

Guess why these great players say these things?  They did the whole over do the lower body thing and figured out it’s a cohesive, sequenced effort, not over use of one segment and the the others are along for the ride.

Edited May 14, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[RoyalTroon]

16 hours ago, Chazb said:

I got on this kick to turn my hips to start the down swing and I was never really a great striker of the ball but I was decent when I  did a lateral shift and was pretty accurate and fairly long when I left the club head go straight down the line.
I am probably doing something wrong I know but turning the hips to start the downswing gives me a big over the top move.Is this just me or do other people have a similar problem.

 

Not a good trend to get into overall,  but there are some shots where that trend can reward you handsomely and not be over the top.

Edited May 14, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[bakere]

Thinking about turning my hips killed me too. I've had like zero horizontal translation of my pelvis in the downswing, so I've had to work on sliding or bumping my pelvis without any intentional turning of the hips or shoulders. It has been very difficult learning this, especially when I try to hit a s*** hard, as my hip and shoulder turn are my brain's main power source.

[KMeloney]

Yesterday during my round I made a point of getting back to making a slight move off the ball to start my swing. That move acts as both a trigger to start the swing, and also provides me momentum to get into my lead side — and a lot sooner. I hit the ball really well, and I didn’t think about my hip turn once. I suspect that a proper shift took/takes care of the hip turn, making turning the hips more of a result that a conscious effort for me. 

[nikeblades00]

Try a swing thought of arms come down first before you fire the hips. Just try it and see what happens.  

[Zitlow]

Turning your left hip to start the downswing negates the power. It would be like a pitcher throwing to the catcher while stepping to 2nd base, the body motion neutralizes the hand motion. 

 

The hips aren't consciously turned in the golf swing. 

[PJE]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

The hips aren't consciously turned in the golf swing. 

After going down a hips rabbit hole, I have found this to be insightful. 
Just forget about it and take a more holistic approach to your swing. You can stretch and seek flexibility but trying to turn them is a recipe for a problem. 

[PJE]

13 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Guess why these great players say these things?  They did the whole over do the lower body thing and figured out it’s a cohesive, sequenced effort, not over use of one segment and the the others are along for the ride.

Very smart advice. 

[aaronjohnston]

This is what I have had an issue with also. And I was given the reason why in my own thread. And this is right in your face! It's actually annoying that the words TURN YOUR HIPS is even allowed and is used. We aren't actually turning them at all in the slightest. They move back/in and up/behind us. This turn business is what causes so many issues in the downswing alone.

 

Check these two videos

 

 

 

 

[JDIL]

22 hours ago, Chazb said:

I got on this kick to turn my hips to start the down swing and I was never really a great striker of the ball but I was decent when I  did a lateral shift and was pretty accurate and fairly long when I left the club head go straight down the line.
I am probably doing something wrong I know but turning the hips to start the downswing gives me a big over the top move.Is this just me or do other people have a similar problem.

Turning the hips is probably the worst swing advice in the history of swing advice. It ruined me and continues to ruin me. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Yes, we all know that the hips begin the downswing. Sensors, technology, video etc. all show it. But it's literally like 0.14 seconds. Start and stop your timer on your phone as fast as you can. It's about that long.

 

You don't need to actively try to fire your hips. Your hips will fire even if you never knew about its role in the swing. Make a wad of paper with only one goal in mind: underhand it into the trash can. Depending on where you are at you might put your opposite foot forward, dip your knees, stand up a little while your hips rotate and your dominant hand lobs it towards the trash can. Your body did all of that while you only had one thought, underhand this wad of paper to the can. 

 

Amateurs and pros have a problem getting their arms stuck behind. Even Tiger struggled with this, he called it the olé move. At around 4:45. He'd fire his hips so hard, that arms would get stuck, body stalls, whip club around. So his swing thought was, make the arms beat the hips to the ball. He says obviously that's not what happens. Don't restrict the hips, but keep loose, and at the top, fire the arms first, not the hips. In order to fire the arms, your body will move your hips. 

 

When anyone throws a ball nobody thinks, "I need to move right shoulder back, lift my left leg up bent at the knee, shift forward, plant that knee, bring right arm around etc. etc." Yet all of that happens way before we throw the ball. But in golf, for some reason, we see something happen 100 milliseconds before another, and think, "do that first!!!!!"

 

What works better for me is not fire/turn the hips, but side of lead hip towards a spot in front the ball. Like if an arrow was shot through me, starting on my trail hip, through my body, existing the lead hip. Similar to an alignment stick through my front belt loops. At the top of the backswing, it's pointed somewhere towards the target line in front of the ball, wherever doesn't matter. Move that forward one inch. Essentially, it's the 'recentering' and buys me a split second to start the arms.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by JDIL

[Jeselnik]

Turning hips to start the DS will produce horrendous results until you learn how to do it and you can’t learn how to do it if you don’t have the mobility.  Is it the best way to swing a club?  IDK but it is very good way.  I do agree that it will be detrimental for most beginners and a bad idea for people with poor mobility.  There are many people that have learned to swing consistently with other methods that I believe require more talent.  As far as I’m concerned, the fact that I learned how to do it means it must not require an inordinate amount of talent or mobility.  I dropped arms for a while, also have a hitting pattern, they were both stepping stones.  

 

Some advice, don’t waste a lot of time trying to perfect something that doesn’t work for you, you can revisit it later though.  
 

JNIK

 

 

 

[mo_golf_ser]

My coach has me working this sequencing issue out with an alignment stick through the belt loops to make sure my arms get back in front. It is taking a lot of time to change the pattern, but the consistency of strike and dispersion has gone down dramatically. Lots and lots of slow motion reps and patience.

[golfarb1]

Golf pros almost universally conflate movement of the pelvis with movement of the hips 

 

Movement  of the hips refers specifically to movement of the head of the femur( thigh bone ) within each respective hip socket . Because the other end of the femur forms the knee , all movements of the hip will also result in similar movement of the knee 

Because there are two hip sockets on either side of the body , the left hip can move independently of the right hip. 
 

The concept that actions of the lower body in transition are happening so fast lend credence to the idea that such movements are reflex reactions to the positions and weight distributions at the top .

Please examine the two transitions below and describe what is happening 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by golfarb1

[iacas]

5 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Movement  of the hips refers specifically to movement of the head of the femur( thigh bone ) within each respective hip socket .

 

When you say "hip turn" to a golfer, they are almost never talking about "movement of the head of the femur within each respective hip socket."

[virtuoso]

I have not been monitoring the head of either of my femurs. I’ve really dropped the ball on this one.

[ALIF]

41 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

I have not been monitoring the head of either of my femurs. I’ve really dropped the ball on this one.

Shame on you!!! Plus, I can’t believe you admitted it!😂

[golfarb1]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

When you say "hip turn" to a golfer, they are almost never talking about "movement of the head of the femur within each respective hip socket."

I would appreciate if you could tell me what a hip turn in golf actually is , so I could correct and update my understanding  of the golf swing . 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

I would appreciate if you could tell me what a hip turn in golf actually is , so I could correct and update my understanding  of the golf swing . 

 

You could Google it to see how almost everyone else uses the phrase.

 

Just like people say "shoulder turn" when the more appropriate phrase is probably something more like "torso turn" or something (but your torso turns at different points different amounts), and people also say you "turn around your spine" while your spine also turns… there are lots of things in golf that people say and know what they mean, but they aren't necessarily "true."

[Zitlow]

In the backswing as the right leg extends and the weight is shifted the right hip rocks up. The shoulder rotation turns the hips and winds up the right thigh. The right side action unweights the left side lower body pulling the left heel up. 

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

When looking at hip turn or pelvis rotation, both going back and coming down, the tailbone is always displaced before rotation has initiated. Most amateurs miss that part……bad things after that.

[RoyalTroon]

On 5/14/2023 at 2:09 PM, JDIL said:

Turning the hips is probably the worst swing advice in the history of swing advice. 

 

 

 

Butch's advice doesn't fall far from the tree.  

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

When looking at hip turn or pelvis rotation, both going back and coming down, the tailbone is always displaced before rotation has initiated. Most amateurs miss that part……bad things after that.

 

 +1

[golfarb1]

Yes the tailbone moving slightly towards the target at the end of the backswing  is the secret to really compressing the golf ball , However, some have misinterpreted this as moving toward the tailbone towards the target much earlier in the backswing . 

The Tiger video has been around for many years. . Many golfers get their arms too far behind their bodies going down . But unlike players like Tiger  , few make this error due to excessive torso rotation 

The enclosed sketch  may be the worst concept that I have ever seen . It states “ CORECT DOWNSWING 

involves sliding the hips to the left and not permitting them to turn at all until after contact with the ball.”

Obviously there is NECESSARY lateral motion to order to weight the lead foot in the downswing  .  Lateral motion is over by about the 9:00 going down . After that it is basically all torso rotation . This  lateral motion 

Is  partially a function of the width of the stance and weight distribution between the feet , resulting in much more lateral motion with a driver than with a wedge.

But the amount of lateral motion must never result in the outside of the lead pelvis moving beyond the outside of the lead heel. . This is because doing  causes the left femur , yes femur,  to straighten too early , running out of range of motion to rotate .

 

Those who are / have had problems with starting the downswing with the hips do so because of misinterpretation of what the hips actually are doing . All top  pros start their downswing via a combination of lead hip abduction and lead hip rotation . Lead hip abduction will permit the pelvis to move laterally toward the target , while lead hip rotation will rotate the lead knee and start the pelvis to turn . Basically a combination move . 
Many make the mistake of starting the downswing via turning the entire pelvis or even worse the thorax( ribcage) and shoulders to start the downswing .

 

Try Wayne DeFranceso idea to combine lead hip abduction and rotation to start the downswing 

  Place a rod in the ground at about a 45 degree angle about 15 feet in front of you .

To start the downswing move your LEAD hip   ( not your trail hip and not your upper body) towards this rod . 
 

[virtuoso]

Unless I’m missing something, we use lead hip abduction to push the pelvis into the backswing. And now we use more lead hip abduction to move the pelvis toward the target in transition?

[iacas]

5 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

However, some have misinterpreted this as moving toward the tailbone towards the target much earlier in the backswing . 

 

When do you think, for example, Rory's tailbone begins moving "toward the target"?

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Unless I’m missing something, we use lead hip abduction to push the pelvis into the backswing. And now we use more lead hip abduction to move the pelvis toward the target in transition?

See below 

The example of hip abduction is open chain , meaning the foot is able to move freely. If the foot is on the ground as in the golf swing , hip abduction would be closed chain 

Edited July 9, 2023 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

50 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

When do you think, for example, Rory's tailbone begins moving "toward the target"?

You tell me . Since we are referring to tailbone movement, it would more accurate with a back video . 
The  third still illustrates Moe Norman’s 

BEAUTIFUL transition .

His movement clearly illustrates left hip ABDuction  and rotation . 

Edited July 9, 2023 by golfarb1