Why am I hitting it short with driver?

[SpiffyFry]

Hello, not sure if this post belongs here or in the tech forums, but I'm having some issues with driver distance. Here are some numbers from the simulator (averages from 8 drives), and I'm using an old TaylorMade r7 Superquad 10.5° with Aldila NV 65-S shaft.

 

Carry: 246 yards (225 meters) ; Total: 260 yards (238 meters)

Club speed: 109 mph

Ball speed: 156 mph

Spin: 3875 rpm

Attack angle: -2,1°

Launch angle: 11,8°

Smash factor: 1.43

 

What could be the cause of the short distance. Is it because the driver is old? Is it because of high spin? (which I don't understand btw, since attack angle is only -2.1°) Any pointers? I'm hitting it almost as far with my 2 iron...

Edited May 31, 2023 by runarorn010
misspell

[GoGoErky]

It’s your swing mechanics. Guessing you are hitting low on the face based on launch and spin numbers along with low smash factor. 
 

Guessing some over the the move as well.

 

 

 

[GungHoGolf]

1.43 is a low smash, spin is way too high, and -2.1 AoA is too much down. But besides that, you’re leaving out a critical data point: side spin (or spin axis).  My guess is you’re steep and cutting across the ball, hitting fades/slices, and/or making contact low on the face, which adds spin due to gear effect. 

[MPStrat]

It’s likely a mixture of your swing and your driver. Changing nothing else and getting properly fitted for a new driver would probably increase your distance by 20 yards at least.

 

Simulators in general tend to not read spin accurately. I would recommend  getting fitted outdoors with a Doppler radar launch monitor. 

[phizzy30]

Hitting down with older drivers usually causes back spin to go up.  You need to have a more neutral AoA or hit slightly up on it to reduce spin and increase carry distance.  Getting a newer driver will also help as well.  Also, your smash is low which causes me to believe that your ball striking isn't very good. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by phizzy30

[GolfTurkey]

What simulator was that and I presume that was indoors since you said "simulator" and not "launch monitor".

 

Reason I ask is there is huge variance in accuracy between launch monitors, especially indoors, and differences in how they measure CHS / smash e.g. 1.43 smash is ok on a Foresight and sucks on TM / Flightscope.

 

2.1 down is fine and you will barely lose any distance compared to hitting up on a properly fitted modern driver (see Koepka for someone who hits down but can launch it without excessive spin).

[Liveonce]

4 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

What simulator was that and I presume that was indoors since you said "simulator" and not "launch monitor".

 

Reason I ask is there is huge variance in accuracy between launch monitors, especially indoors, and differences in how they measure CHS / smash e.g. 1.43 smash is ok on a Foresight and sucks on TM / Flightscope.

 

2.1 down is fine and you will barely lose any distance compared to hitting up on a properly fitted modern driver (see Koepka for someone who hits down but can launch it without excessive spin).

Koepka is also swinging it 120 so he can hit down . 2 down with this guys speed will result in distance loss

[GolfTurkey]

1 minute ago, Liveonce said:

Koepka is also swinging it 120 so he can hit down . 2 down with this guys speed will result in distance loss

Really? He’s swinging 109 and launching it at 11 if the LM is accurate on those data points.

 

Plenty close to optimal depending on spin rates (who knows if that LM is in the ballpark re. spin, e.g. Toptracer totally overestimates) and spin will be dropped (if it’s actually high)  and launch will be increased further with higher contact on the face and/or a different head. 

[JimmyC59]

12 hours ago, runarorn010 said:

Hello, not sure if this post belongs here or in the tech forums, but I'm having some issues with driver distance. Here are some numbers from the simulator (averages from 8 drives), and I'm using an old TaylorMade r7 Superquad 10.5° with Aldila NV 65-S shaft.

 

Carry: 246 yards (225 meters) ; Total: 260 yards (238 meters)

Club speed: 109 mph

Ball speed: 156 mph

Spin: 3875 rpm

Attack angle: -2,1°

Launch angle: 11,8°

Smash factor: 1.43

 

What could be the cause of the short distance. Is it because the driver is old? Is it because of high spin? (which I don't understand btw, since attack angle is only -2.1°) Any pointers? I'm hitting it almost as far with my 2 iron...

Only on GolfWRX is a 260 yard driver, "short."

Edited June 1, 2023 by JimmyC59

[Hawkeye77]

You could get fit, but your other two threads suggest you don't trust the fitter, lol, and hitting your 2 iron 246-260? No way.

[GoGoErky]

42 minutes ago, JimmyC59 said:

Only on GolfWRX is a 260 yard driver, "short."

It’s short for a 109 ss. 

[MattM97]

That spin is crazy high for a driver, you get into a properly fit driver with 1200rpm less and you'll be carrying it over your old total. 

[xkilgorextroutx]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You could get fit, but your other two threads suggest you don't trust the fitter, lol, and hitting your 2 iron 246-260? No way.

 

[SpiffyFry]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You could get fit, but your other two threads suggest you don't trust the fitter, lol, and hitting your 2 iron 246-260? No way.

I'm just a sceptical person by nature 🙂 A key word I used is "almost" as far. I carry 202yds and total 225yds with 2 iron, which in my book is almost as far (a bit of sarcasm, but still), but a lot straighter and consistent, which makes driver almost not worth it for me atm.

[naj959]

3 minutes ago, SpiffyFry said:

I'm just a sceptical person by nature 🙂 A key word I used is "almost" as far. I carry 202yds and total 225yds with 2 iron, which in my book is almost as far (a bit of sarcasm, but still), but a lot straighter and consistent, which makes driver almost not worth it for me atm.

225 yards is nowhere near 246 yards. That's 2 clubs less in. Just saying. Spin is high and smash is low; pretty straightforward. 

[Hawkeye77]

17 hours ago, SpiffyFry said:

I'm just a sceptical person by nature 🙂 A key word I used is "almost" as far. I carry 202yds and total 225yds with 2 iron, which in my book is almost as far (a bit of sarcasm, but still), but a lot straighter and consistent, which makes driver almost not worth it for me atm.

225 yards you claim total for 2 iron vs. 260 yards you claim total for your driver, assuming either or both are accurate, is miles away from "almost" and giving up 30 yards doesn't make your driver "not worth it".  

 

I'd get some eyes on your swing to find out why it may not be efficient.  If your 2 iron is carrying 202, maybe look into a hybrid/7w or something you should probably be using instead anyway, but you haven't really given much in terms of your game or a vid of your swing.  I can get legitimately close to/equal your driver numbers with much less speed, confirmed at a recent and real fitting and outdoors on the course, so IMO you need to figure out how to maximize your potential with combo of swing analysis and proper fitting.  

[SpiffyFry]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

225 yards you claim total for 2 iron vs. 260 yards you claim total for your driver, assuming either or both are accurate, is miles away from "almost" and giving up 30 yards doesn't make your driver "not worth it".  

 

I'd get some eyes on your swing to find out why it may not be efficient.  If your 2 iron is carrying 202, maybe look into a hybrid/7w or something you should probably be using instead anyway, but you haven't really given much in terms of your game or a vid of your swing.  I can get legitimately close to/equal your driver numbers with much less speed, confirmed at a recent and real fitting and outdoors on the course, so IMO you need to figure out how to maximize your potential with combo of swing analysis and proper fitting.  

I agree with you, and I will probably get a fitting and maybe a lesson later. I just wanted to see if you guys could give me some insight based on these numbers, and if a new driver would potentially be worth it. The thing that bugs me is that I'm not hitting it further with c.a. 110 club speed and, what I thought was a relatively high smash factor (which I have been told is not high). The thing with the 2 iron vs driver is that I consistently hit it 225 and straight with the 2i, but the driver is all over the place and ranging from 240-280, but on average around 260, making me prefer the 2i off the tee more often than not. I'm hitting the irons much better than my woods. I often play in windy conditions so the low ball flight of the 2i really fits my game tbh. Although I will probably buy a 5w later to mix it up if I want higher flight with more spin.

 

And one more thing. If smash factor is a relationship between club speed and ball speed, couldn't the low smash factor also be caused by the clubface not producing enough ball speed as well as my swing hitting the ball poorly? All things being equal, a brand new stealth should cause higher smash factor (because of higher ball speed) than a 15 year old club?

 

And since some people were wondering, these numbers are from Trackman.

Edited June 2, 2023 by SpiffyFry

[PracticeSwinger]

36 minutes ago, SpiffyFry said:

And one more thing. If smash factor is a relationship between club speed and ball speed, couldn't the low smash factor also be caused by the clubface not producing enough ball speed as well as my swing hitting the ball poorly? All things being equal, a brand new stealth should cause higher smash factor (because of higher ball speed) than a 15 year old club?

Do a degree, yes. But the dominant factors, that far outweight the clubhead, are : how you come into the ball and where you hit it on the face (see gear effect on this). Classic case of speed or smash. Do you want to master swinging like your grandpa and finding the sweet spot all day long? Or do you want the potential of swinging it like DJ and practicing to be more consistent in finding the sweet spot? Only you can answer that one

[glk]

43 minutes ago, SpiffyFry said:

I agree with you, and I will probably get a fitting and maybe a lesson later. I just wanted to see if you guys could give me some insight based on these numbers, and if a new driver would potentially be worth it. The thing that bugs me is that I'm not hitting it further with c.a. 110 club speed and, what I thought was a relatively high smash factor (which I have been told is not high). The thing with the 2 iron vs driver is that I consistently hit it 225 and straight with the 2i, but the driver is all over the place and ranging from 240-280, but on average around 260, making me prefer the 2i off the tee more often than not. I'm hitting the irons much better than my woods. I often play in windy conditions so the low ball flight of the 2i really fits my game tbh. Although I will probably buy a 5w later to mix it up if I want higher flight with more spin.

 

And one more thing. If smash factor is a relationship between club speed and ball speed, couldn't the low smash factor also be caused by the clubface not producing enough ball speed as well as my swing hitting the ball poorly? All things being equal, a brand new stealth should cause higher smash factor (because of higher ball speed) than a 15 year old club?

 

And since some people were wondering, these numbers are from Trackman.

I would bet that your driver swing and iron swing are pretty much the same - pretty common to have a bias on one side of the club spectrum - especially given you have an -2 aoa.    There are folks with the opposite situation - hit off a tee way better than irons.    Improving your swing is going to pay bigger dividends than a new club which may or may not help you.

 

You don't need to watch this entire video just the first 5 minutes or so to get the idea then skip to the 30 minute mark to see the two case studies - the first case appears similar to what you are doing.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

20 hours ago, SpiffyFry said:

I agree with you, and I will probably get a fitting and maybe a lesson later. I just wanted to see if you guys could give me some insight based on these numbers, and if a new driver would potentially be worth it. The thing that bugs me is that I'm not hitting it further with c.a. 110 club speed and, what I thought was a relatively high smash factor (which I have been told is not high). The thing with the 2 iron vs driver is that I consistently hit it 225 and straight with the 2i, but the driver is all over the place and ranging from 240-280, but on average around 260, making me prefer the 2i off the tee more often than not. I'm hitting the irons much better than my woods. I often play in windy conditions so the low ball flight of the 2i really fits my game tbh. Although I will probably buy a 5w later to mix it up if I want higher flight with more spin.

 

And one more thing. If smash factor is a relationship between club speed and ball speed, couldn't the low smash factor also be caused by the clubface not producing enough ball speed as well as my swing hitting the ball poorly? All things being equal, a brand new stealth should cause higher smash factor (because of higher ball speed) than a 15 year old club?

 

And since some people were wondering, these numbers are from Trackman.

I assume you can gain with tech, but would not assume that a new face on your driver will be the answer.

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

I assume you can gain with tech, but would not assume that a new face on your driver will be "the" answer.

 

[doctor220]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:34 PM, GungHoGolf said:

1.43 is a low smash, spin is way too high, and -2.1 AoA is too much down. But besides that, you’re leaving out a critical data point: side spin (or spin axis).  My guess is you’re steep and cutting across the ball, hitting fades/slices, and/or making contact low on the face, which adds spin due to gear effect. 

-2 AoA is absolutely not too much down. This is plain wrong. The guy is hitting it low on the face and probably adding loft. -2 AoA is totally fine and playable. The side spin also really doesn't matter in terms of hitting it short. 

 

This thinking that everyone needs to swing 3 up on driver has really hurt a lot of people. You can play tour level golf with a -2 AoA on a driver. Vertical gear effect works wonders. 

 

Taking someone who already hits the ball low on the face and have them swing up on driver is going to make them hit the ball even lower on the face. Not helpful. 

[DCCarpenter]

@SpiffyFry are you hitting a true 2 iron or a driving iron/utility iron?

 

I ask because I have a lot less swingspeed than you and your 2 iron numbers are the same I'm getting from a 18 degree Wilson 2 utility. I think you co uld get a lot more out of your iron while keeping the consistency.

 

I've put the driver under the backseat of the truck and am not touching it at the moment...went 30 holes without a lost tee shot using that 2 iron for everything.

 

Driving irons are a lot less expensive than drivers , maybe try a few out at your closest golf shop and see how they do. Might be able to get 240 dead straight for $250 bucks or less. 

[SpiffyFry]

On 6/3/2023 at 9:15 PM, DCCarpenter said:

@SpiffyFry are you hitting a true 2 iron or a driving iron/utility iron?

 

I ask because I have a lot less swingspeed than you and your 2 iron numbers are the same I'm getting from a 18 degree Wilson 2 utility. I think you co uld get a lot more out of your iron while keeping the consistency.

 

I've put the driver under the backseat of the truck and am not touching it at the moment...went 30 holes without a lost tee shot using that 2 iron for everything.

 

Driving irons are a lot less expensive than drivers , maybe try a few out at your closest golf shop and see how they do. Might be able to get 240 dead straight for $250 bucks or less. 

Hey, when I say driving iron I'm talking about an 18° stealth UDI

[Elkhair]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:31 AM, MattM97 said:

That spin is crazy high for a driver, you get into a properly fit driver with 1200rpm less and you'll be carrying it over your old total. 

1200 lol. need more than that to get the ball in the air. 

[MattM97]

2 minutes ago, Elkhair said:

1200 lol. need more than that to get the ball in the air. 

 

1200 less. Which means take his 3875rpm driver spin, subtract 1200rpm and you get 2675rpm which is plenty of control and will give him more distance.