Danny Maude and Pete Cowen, role of the right arm

[umamimami]

14 hours ago, airjammer said:

 

If you believe the AMG data. Every golfer they have measured internally rotate there trail arm from the top of the backswing so this may be the intention but it doesn’t seem to be the reality. 
 

If the right arm doesn’t change in any rotation the club face wouldn’t change orientation either..excluding an left wrist bowing…the clubface wouldn’t be spinning at all. In this scenario only how it looks would be changed as it goes from top backswing to back down in front if you. 

 

Forearm is not same segment as arm segment. You can internally rotate your arm from your shoulder joint a la AMG.

 

You can simultaneously “spin” your forearm (supinate)

 

You can also do the hand motion from the video MPstrat posted. 

 

You can do with with your trail hand in a mock backswing, plate your it up like Pete showed. It shoul feel like you threw your trail hand with the accompanying release sensation from each segment as you “spin”. 

 

the result is that you do a shitload of rotation while getting the same look in 2D as someone doing a lot of other moves but not doing this “spin”.  This is a way to put force into the ball. 
 

this is a way to transmit as much torque as possible from each muscle segment. In putting the wrist into a much larger ROM you’re also getting more opportunity to add force and direct it even. But like the video said you have to intend to do the release.

 

 

Lots of the time this gets shortened to throw or skip or whip.

 

[umamimami]

(Double post)

Edited August 10, 2023 by umamimami
Sorry

[bonvivantva]

On 8/5/2023 at 3:42 AM, argee1977 said:

He's now uploaded his interpretation video from his lesson.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV1wNLaMCjI

 

Finally got around to watching this.  At about the 4:40 mark Danny uses spinning and rotating intentionally interchangeably (because obvious to everyone but Cowen they are synonyms).  That's the trouble with instructors and instruction in general.  You need someone that knows how to golf, understands why you can't, can communicated the issue, and can communicate the issue in a way you can understand it.  How often you reckon all the stars align and effective instruction happens? 

 

Further complicating the issue is the fact that a tour pro can probably get away with telling someone like Cowen that spinning and rotating mean the same thing, and then press him to explain why he is using the terms differently.  I sincerely doubt someone as gruff as Cowen would tolerate a mere mortal questioning him.  Even Danny can't quite get him to explain himself clearly.  My point is that while Cowen may understand the most, Maude is clearly the better instructor/communicator/translator.  We certainly wouldn't be debating what Cowen meant on here if he had explained himself clearly.  Finding all the qualities you need in one instructor seems very unlikely and even then, you'd still need a good instructor - student match.  Cowen may be great, but probably only when he has the time and inclination to clarify his vague and confusing explanations.  It probably also helps if his students are as knowledgable about the swing as he.

[PracticeSwinger]

So, from transition, into the hitting zone and through impact, is the trail forearm pronating or supinating?

[MPStrat]

8 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

So, from transition, into the hitting zone and through impact, is the trail forearm pronating or supinating?

Trail forearm is pronating. Lead forearm is supinating. 

[Nels55]

27 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

So, from transition, into the hitting zone and through impact, is the trail forearm pronating or supinating?

It depends on the grip and swing mechanics.  With a side on trail hand grip and a straight line release with the shaft lined up with trail arm ulnar bone (Single Axis) there is very little rotation.  That would be the 'Ideal Mechanical Advantage' or IMA release.  LOL a blast from the past...  I wonder if anyone here remembers Scott Hazledine? 

[PracticeSwinger]

14 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Trail forearm is pronating. Lead forearm is supinating. 

That seems intuitive (for once in the golf swing haha) and relates perfectly

to the ‘club face in hand drawing’ of the video above and/or Cowen ‘spin it down’ talk, two hand tennis backhand motion
 

Was wondering since it seems I’ve read in the past that both forearms were supinating getting through impact (in a sense where both forearms would face up while the lead wrist flexed+ulnar and trail extended+ulnar would provide the shaft lean) : which would be more of the ‘skipping  stones on water with your trail arm’’ motion

 

(guessing it relates also to the latest Manzella video and ‘holding everything’ release style he meant in his Social Media is wrong clip)

[PracticeSwinger]

2 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

It depends on the grip and swing mechanics.  With a side on trail hand grip and a straight line release with the shaft lined up with trail arm ulnar bone (Single Axis) there is very little rotation.  That would be the 'Ideal Mechanical Advantage' or IMA release.  LOL a blast from the past...  I wonder if anyone here remembers Scott Hazledine? 

I’m quite new to golf instruction and always wondered about the effect of trail hand grip  (know of the side / cover etc Adams talk) and the release style - is my trail hand vertical-ish through impact and extends toward the target or is it ‘turning down’ / covering / horizontal-ish for compression

[MPStrat]

18 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

That seems intuitive (for once in the golf swing haha) and relates perfectly

to the ‘club face in hand drawing’ of the video above and/or Cowen ‘spin it down’ talk, two hand tennis backhand motion
 

Was wondering since it seems I’ve read in the past that both forearms were supinating getting through impact (in a sense where both forearms would face up while the lead wrist flexed+ulnar and trail extended+ulnar would provide the shaft lean) : which would be more of the ‘skipping  stones on water with your trail arm’’ motion

 

(guessing it relates also to the latest Manzella video and ‘holding everything’ release style he meant in his Social Media is wrong clip)

Yes I would say the worse the golfer, the less they pronate their trail forearm through impact and keep the trail hand under the grip. 
 

Pros are more “trail hand hides lead hand”

 

15 handicap with major low point issues:

 

 

Pro golfer:

 

 

 

 

[umamimami]

The high handicap isn’t spinning/throwing/swinging/ using the golf club as intended - he’s just trying to get into the position he’s seeing in the second photo. He can’t release something he hasn’t created in the backswing/ isn’t aware of. So the joints look all awkward because they aren’t moving through the natural “throw” / sling that is built into each of us.

 

Pete Cowen learned, partially, from a German Chrio/Physio about a movement system that describes the body motion in spirals up the joints from the ground. Tai Chi is similar. Pete says her name / her company name in a podcast on YouTube.
 

That aside is to say that the second person is doing this “spin” we’ve all been talking about. The spin this german lady is talking about. The spin Danny says he can put his whole trail side into. The spin that the clubface guy is talking about. 

 

Once you’re aware of this built in sling you can start to feel/be aware of it in many of your motions.

 

I forget who said it but they said a beginner would do well by reversing their initial idea/motion of the swing. Relatedly, you spin your arm away from the ball. Infact you do it with most joints /all throughout body. 

Uncoiling. You gotta have a clear intent and knowing of your target. Create it in the backswing and trust and let it out on the downswing, ie downswing is a reaction, you gotta relax and let it out.

 

Try using this to throw a golf ball at the ground to get a feel for it in the trail. Or skipping a rock or other object.

[nitram]

13 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Trail forearm is pronating. Lead forearm is supinating. 

 

Also note that when asked, Cowen says his right side (trail side) is in control. The trail forearm is supinated until around P5.5-P6, then the "spin it down" begins, and the trail forearm pronates while maintaining trail wrist extension into P7.

Edited August 11, 2023 by nitram

[PracticeSwinger]

11 minutes ago, nitram said:

 

Also note that when asked, Cowen says his right side (trail side) is in control. The trail forearm is supinated until around P5.5-P6, then the "spin it down" begins, and the trail forearm pronates while maintaining trail wristcock into P7.

Thanks. As I noted earlier, that's what I got from 'spin it down' and not 'rotate it'. Guessing that more than a few stall / flip savers have to do it because from the top the combo of trail internal shoulder and forearm pronation sets them up for the flip 'rotating it'. While 'spinning it down' comes from the possibility for the trail forearm to pronate getting through impact from a good combo of trail shoulder going external (or just not rotating) and foreram not having pronated already.

[MPStrat]

50 minutes ago, nitram said:

While maintaining trail wristcock into P7.

Maintaining some wrist bend, not wrist c0ck. Wrist bend is wrist extension, wrist c0ck is radial deviation. 

[MPStrat]

34 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Thanks. As I noted earlier, that's what I got from 'spin it down' and not 'rotate it'. Guessing that more than a few stall / flip savers have to do it because from the top the combo of trail internal shoulder and forearm pronation sets them up for the flip 'rotating it'. While 'spinning it down' comes from the possibility for the trail forearm to pronate getting through impact from a good combo of trail shoulder going external (or just not rotating) and foreram not having pronated already.

Yes, the feeling is that the right arm is stable through impact because the pronation is coming actively from the forearm and not the humerus.  

[Carlito]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:40 AM, moehogan said:

The clockwise right arm rotation is from the player’s perspective and is part of the loading process completed by P6. The right shoulder is externally rotated and the right forearm is supinated. This winding moves the right elbow into the torso and connects the entire right side to deliver the blow. Add an extended right wrist and you’re fully loaded.
 

From P6 to P7 the right forearm and hand rotate CCW back to neutral. Can’t remember from the vid what “spinning down the right arm” refers to but it’s probably this CCW rotation of the right forearm from P6-P7. 

In think this motion was already described in the correct way on page 2.

 

[nitram]

22 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Maintaining some wrist bend, not wrist c0ck. Wrist bend is wrist extension, wrist c0ck is radial deviation. 

You are 100% correct.

[nitram]

15 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Thanks. As I noted earlier, that's what I got from 'spin it down' and not 'rotate it'. Guessing that more than a few stall / flip savers have to do it because from the top the combo of trail internal shoulder and forearm pronation sets them up for the flip 'rotating it'. While 'spinning it down' comes from the possibility for the trail forearm to pronate getting through impact from a good combo of trail shoulder going external (or just not rotating) and foreram not having pronated already.

 

I agree. The only thing is your trail shoulder should be in external rotation from P4.5 thru P7. This external rotation is what forces your trail elbow into proper position by P5 and keeps it there into release. This is what Pete is referring to when he talks about maintaining shoulder pressure.

[PracticeSwinger]

10 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Yes, the feeling is that the right arm is stable through impact because the pronation is coming actively from the forearm and not the humerus.  

That's what I always understood from the 'leave the arms up, pivot, side bend, passive arms' crew - the feel that arms don't do much in transition but lowers (relative to the ground and to the chest), no rotation... and then in the hitting area, you're setup for an agressive pivot (trail forearm able to pronate and 'spin it down'). My 2 cents

[Carlito]

23 minutes ago, nitram said:

The only thing is your trail shoulder should be in external rotation from P4.5 thru P7. This external rotation

And unless you are Scotty Scheffler don’t forget the correct power shift!

Edited August 11, 2023 by Carlito

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

That's what I always understood from the 'leave the arms up, pivot, side bend, passive arms' crew - the feel that arms don't do much in transition but lowers (relative to the ground and to the chest), no rotation... and then in the hitting area, you're setup for an agressive pivot (trail forearm able to pronate and 'spin it down'). My 2 cents

Yes, in these debates it’s really clear that people perceive when things happen differently so I’ll say, for me, the arms and hands absolutely don’t do anything actively in the transition nor is there active body rotation toward the target. The arms don’t actively lower in transition, they don’t actively release in transition. Transition is a body move IMO. 
 

“Leaving the arms up higher relative to the chest and use more side bend to lower” and “passive arms in transition” are two completely different things. The first is a preference or a pattern, the second, for me, is a must in any golf swing. 

 

That’s because the transition isn’t the downswing; transition begins in the backswing. I want my transition to happen before the arms start the downswing. Rory says the same thing in his video with Me and My Golf.  The issue a lot of amateurs have is they start their downswing with the arms before any sort of transition move. Kind of like Jack’s “you can’t release it too soon as long as you get to your left side” I would say that’s oversimplified only because “get to your left side” doesn’t really say much but there has to be a transition move with the body before the arms start in the downswing.  From there, you can’t release it too soon IMO. The release is all of the movements we are discussing.

[MPStrat]

11 hours ago, umamimami said:

The high handicap isn’t spinning/throwing/swinging/ using the golf club as intended - he’s just trying to get into the position he’s seeing in the second photo. He can’t release something he hasn’t created in the backswing/ isn’t aware of. So the joints look all awkward because they aren’t moving through the natural “throw” / sling that is built into each of us.

 

You are absolutely correct that much of this look post impact is a result of what was created in the backswing and carried into the downswing. I think it’s good you mentioned that because it’s important to note.
 

What I was trying to get across is that the trail forearm shouldn’t have to supinate through the strike.

 

[runningblind11]

On 8/8/2023 at 12:47 PM, me05501 said:

Interesting concepts for sure. 

 

The "spin it down" language confuses me too. It doesn't mean much to me. 

 

The net result/finished swing is very similar to the Porzak method which is what I've been committed to trying to feel for the last six months or so. 

I'm all for the Prozac method as well. 

[airjammer]

Shots fired but in a weird way as it seemed like he was saying the same thing as cowen but using a different backswing drill that achieves essentially the same thing but I guess he has a problem with trying to maintain external rotation deep into the downswing. 

 

There’s a reason why Cowen, Porzak, and other “put downward pressure on the grip” coaches put a lot of emphasis on the trail arm position. From my experience if your trail arm starts tipping the club’s COM out in front of you too soon…FORE Left!!

[Hilts1969]

3 hours ago, airjammer said:

Shots fired but in a weird way as it seemed like he was saying the same thing as cowen but using a different backswing drill that achieves essentially the same thing but I guess he has a problem with trying to maintain external rotation deep into the downswing. 

 

There’s a reason why Cowen, Porzak, and other “put downward pressure on the grip” coaches put a lot of emphasis on the trail arm position. From my experience if your trail arm starts tipping the club’s COM out in front of you too soon…FORE Left!!

 

Yep basically trying to load the right arm correctly in the backswing. The type of drill he mentions never translates for me, same as one arm drills.

 

Don't agree that this would cure the downswing though. He must have a hell of a stable of players and confidence to dismiss Cowen though.

[Dewdman42]

In my opinion, Cowan was not referring to pronation when he talked about "spinning" the forearms.  He was simply referring to the fact that the hands are on a radius around the rotating torso.  As we rotate our torso and shoulders, the hands are on a larger radius than our rib cage.  I think he was meaning that we need to make a concerted effort to make sure the hands don't fall behind the angular movement.  We are spinning our hands around our spine.  They move faster than our rib cage because they are on a bigger radius.  if we don't move them fast enough they will fall behind.    In his mind that was like swinging the forearms.  He called it spinning.  I think he used a poor choice of words, no surprise there, his language is often very hard for people to follow.

 

If you think about it.  we don't really swing our arms very much relative to our upper body.  We rotate our hips, chest and shoulders through 180+ degrees of rotation in full swing.  Relative to our chest, our hands during backswing only move from just below our navel to up and in front of our right shoulder.  And when we "swing" they move back down and end up not very far from where we started.  it's not much swinging at all, it's more like chopping an axe up and down, relative to our chest and the shoulder sockets.  

 

However, the 180+ degrees of rotation in our upper body that occurs, with hands that are connected to it only loosely through a number of joints in our arms, means that it could be very easy for the body to rotate and the hands to fall behind.  i think he was emphasizing the effort to keep the hands up with the angular motion of our hips,chest and shoulders.  Spin them around our spine is what I think he meant.   If anything, adduction.  However I feel we abduct and adduct a lot less then people think because most of the movement of the hands in the swing plane is due to body rotation, not the arms.  But we can "feel" the effects of keeping the hands up with that, as acceleration in the hands.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dewdman42

[MPStrat]

36 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

He called it spinning.  I think he used a poor choice of words, no surprise there, his language is often very hard for people to follow.

That makes sense. Though there is definitely handle twisting to accomplish what he wants. I agree, not a good choice of words. Spinning it down with the hands in front of the chest is going to be hosels/chicken wing/lead side strike stuff for a lot of people. 

[Dewdman42]

21 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

That makes sense. Though there is definitely handle twisting to accomplish what he wants.

I agree, not a good choice of words. Spinning it down with the hands in front of the chest is going to be hosels/chicken wing/lead side strike stuff for a lot of people. 

 

I don't think handle twisting is neccessary at all to do what he is suggesting.  Get out your clubs and think it through some more.  The rotation (or spinning as he put it) comes from your upper body, not your forearms.  I don't personally think it involves very much adduction either.  A little tiny bit relative to how far our hands are moving through space.  It's more about maintaining. a small amount of tension so that the hands keep up with body rotation, which will in fact cause the hands to accelerate since they are on a larger radius then our rib cage, but its driven from rotation around the spine and not allowing the hands to fall behind, keeping them in front of your chest and rib cage the entire time, no pronation needed whatsoever.

 

Pronating your trail forearm prior to impact leads to flip city.  I do not think his words should be interpreted that way at all.

 

You cover the ball with extended right wrist through impact.  The photos shown on this thread with the trail forearm pronated are all after impact leading to a finish.  Cowen was speaking about the downswing WAY earlier then that.

 

Don't ever take Cowen's words literally or out of context.  He is WAY too abstract and is often speaking in terms of feelings and things that make sense to him in his mind I'm sure, but can easily be misinterpreted, as is the case on this thread.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dewdman42

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

I don't think handle twisting is neccessary at all to do what he is suggesting.  Get out your clubs and think it through some more.  The rotation (or spinning as he put it) comes from your upper body, not your forearms.  

Im not interpreting his words. He is teaching it his way. I am explaining what needs to happen to put pressure on the ball as he says and achieve this penetrating flight. This isn’t really black magic stuff. He has his preferences, and I’m not saying he doesn’t have a unique perspective to offer, but you simply cannot do what he wants without twisting the shaft. 
 

Below is Brian Manzella talking about this concept and how poor ballstrikers and slicers lack handle twist:

 

 

 

 

 

[Dewdman42]

36 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Im not interpreting his words. He is teaching it his way. I am explaining what needs to happen to put pressure on the ball as he says and achieve this penetrating flight. This isn’t really black magic stuff. He has his preferences, and I’m not saying he doesn’t have a unique perspective to offer, but you simply cannot do what he wants without twisting the shaft. 
 

Below is Brian Manzella talking about this concept and how poor ballstrikers and slicers lack handle twist:

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok I get you now.  Bowing the left wrist at the top does not pronate the trailing forearm, if anything that is extension of the trailing wrist, not pronation of that forearm.  It was not my impression that Cowan was talking about this specifically either when he was talking about "spinning", he was talking about spinning the forearms.  Though he definitely was trying to get that outcome, a bowed left wrist to really cover the ball with compression and more forward lean/de lofting.

 

He was poorly describing it either way

 

I myself am also working on that but I don't personally think of it as twisting the grip.  but I get what you mean.  I think this is dependent on the golfer though, its not absolute...there are a lot of golfers that are not bowing their left wrist to twist the grip...they have a flat wrist and a stronger grip and aren't trying to get the back of their hand facing the target bowed at impact.  I hear you, many people do that and teach it, but its not the only way for a quality strike.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dewdman42

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

ok well bowing the left wrist at the top does not pronate the right forearm, if anything that is extension of the trailing wrist, not pronation of the right forearm.  It was not my impression that Cowan was talking about this specifically either when he was talking about "spinning", though he definitely was trying to get that outcome, a bowed left wrist to really cover the ball with compression.  He was poorly describing it either way

 

I myself am also working on that but I don't personally think of it as twisting the grip.  but I get what you mean.  I think this is dependent on the golfer though, its not absolute...there are a lot of golfers that are not bowing their left wrist to twist the grip...they have a flat wrist and a stronger grip and aren't trying to get the back of their hand facing the target bowed at impact.  I hear you, many people do that and teach it, but its not the only way for a quality strike.

Again, I’m not trying to explain Pete’s words, I’m sharing what’s needed to achieve the end result. 
 

Manzella is using flexion to illustrate the needed motion. Even with strong grips, the handle twists and both forearms spin. Though with strong grips it tends to happen later and it may not get to a bowed condition, the important thing to know is that it absolutely must work in that direction. Pros in general tend to have a lot more forearm rotation than amateurs. I think a lot of amateurs think forearm rotation means “flip” and this harmful misconception is why they have such a scoopy impact. This is very relevant to the discussion because we are trying to achieve the end result of more compression and a more penetrating ballflight.
 

I’ll use Daniel Berger as an example because he has a very strong lead hand grip but like usual in pro golfers, has a fairly neutral trail hand.