Danny Maude and Pete Cowen, role of the right arm

[Dewdman42]

I don't think we disagree.

 

I think if you look at the trailing forearm in photo 1 and photo 2 closely, little or no forearm pronation occurred.  The third photo is after impact and not part of this discussion.  I'm not trying to say that no pronation ever happens. But we don't see it in photos 1 and 2 above.  Upper body rotation and the trailing wrist releasing its extension is squaring the clubface.  Likewise with the leading forearm, i don't see it supinating until after impact.

 

Additionally I want to say that when you have hinge and lag, it's a flexion of the left wrist and extension of the right wrist that can twist the grip as you put it.  That is not exactly "spinning the arms".  Once the left wrist is unhinged completely, then twisting the forearm would do that sort of thing but that is very late to be doing that.

 

its also true that a lot of people with strong grip will start out cupped left wrist and then flex it a bit more to flat sooner or later.  But again, this is not neccessarily a twisting of the forearms unless it is very very late..and anyway the topic of this thread I thought was what the trailing arm is doing.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dewdman42

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

I think if you look at the trailing forearm in photo 1 and photo 2 closely, little or no forearm pronation occurred.  The third photo is after impact and not part of this discussion.  I'm not trying to say that no pronation ever happens. But we don't see it in photos 1 and 2 above.  

Because of his strong grip, Berger’s release happens later than most. But, to get to where he is at p8, the intention has to start much earlier. Manzella also had a recent video with BBG sharing Jacobs 3D data that pros are making an effort to rotate the forearms from the very top of the golf swing. They are working to line up the golf club very early in the downswing despite how things might look. 
 

 

19 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

Upper body rotation and the trailing wrist releasing its extension is squaring the clubface.  Likewise with the leading forearm.

The club working on somewhat of an arc combined with flexion to extension of the lead wrist and extension to flexion of the trail wrist do play a role in “squaring” the clubface. But without handle twist and forearm rotation you would be hitting a flop shot. 

 

[johnrobison]

On 8/12/2023 at 1:56 PM, Dewdman42 said:

I don't think we disagree.

 

I think if you look at the trailing forearm in photo 1 and photo 2 closely, little or no forearm pronation occurred.  The third photo is after impact and not part of this discussion.  I'm not trying to say that no pronation ever happens. But we don't see it in photos 1 and 2 above.  Upper body rotation and the trailing wrist releasing its extension is squaring the clubface.  Likewise with the leading forearm, i don't see it supinating until after impact.

 

 

Brian Manzella just posted this video showing how much forearm rotation occurs in Rory's swing

 https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv40iIeAC5j/?hl=en

Berger isn't a whole lot different and you can see in his video, it's the lead arm supination that's responsible for squaring the face

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

Brian Manzella just posted this video showing how much forearm rotation occurs in Rory's swing

 https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv40iIeAC5j/?hl=en

Berger isn't a whole lot different and you can see in his video, it's the lead arm supination that's responsible for squaring the face

I love how he said “you can see the crossover in the arms that nobody what’s to talk about” 😂 

 

I think the big thing for people to take is that, to do what Pete is saying, there is most definitely twisting needed. 

 

This is a very big thing especially for mid and high handicappers. What Manzella is saying is terrifying to many amateurs and even teachers. The conversation I was having with dewdman is a good example. They think this stuff leads to “flip city”. And they aren’t to blame, the “drag and hold” stuff is very popular along with the more recent trend of teachers saying the release is “the lead wrist moving from flexion toward extension and the trail wrist moving from extension toward flexion and rolling the wrists is bad” I believe that statement or belief is painting a very inaccurate but more so incomplete picture of how to line up the golf club. 

 

Now of course you don’t need to study wrist graphs to know that not everyone releases it like Rory but even the player who is measured to have the lowest rate of closure on tour, Brooks Koepka, is rolling his wrists a ton

 

 
 

and then the crossover:

 

 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

45 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I love how he said “you can see the crossover in the arms that nobody what’s to talk about” 😂 

 

I think the big thing for people to take is that, to do what Pete is saying, there is most definitely twisting needed. 

 

This is a very big thing especially for mid and high handicappers. What Manzella is saying is terrifying to many amateurs and even teachers. The conversation I was having with dewdman is a good example. They think this stuff leads to “flip city”. And they aren’t to blame, the “drag and hold” stuff is very popular along with the more recent trend of teachers saying the release is “the lead wrist moving from flexion toward extension and the trail wrist moving from extension toward flexion and rolling the wrists is bad” I believe that statement or belief is painting a very inaccurate but more so incomplete picture of how to line up the golf club. 

 

Now of course you don’t need to study wrist graphs to know that not everyone releases it like Rory but even the player who is measured to have the lowest rate of closure on tour, Brooks Koepka, is rolling his wrists a ton

 

Very interesting stuff and I can attest to that. I'm a decent stick but nothing to write about (swing videos are in the section if need be). Picked up the game in the last few years and when you self diagnose on videos, not wanting to flip, you read online, you come here, you watch videos - and it's very easy to see why guys would pick the 'drag and hold', minimal rate of closure (which isn't true actually), body only pivot that would have you exit low and left, hands going out first then club : which seems like the anti-flip school of thought (but, by my experience, leads to a 'down the line' and even flippy-er release when you require compensations). And then you see, read also, about pronation, compression, crossover, gears capture where elite swings show these moves and how that exhibit the low-left release. Very interesting.

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Very interesting stuff and I can attest to that. I'm a decent stick but nothing to write about (swing videos are in the section if need be). Picked up the game in the last few years and when you self diagnose on videos, not wanting to flip, you read online, you come here, you watch videos - and it's very easy to see why guys would pick the 'drag and hold', minimal rate of closure (which isn't true actually), body only pivot that would have you exit low and left, hands going out first then club : which seems like the anti-flip school of thought (but, by my experience, leads to a 'down the line' and even flippy-er release when you require compensations). And then you see, read also, about pronation, compression, crossover, gears capture where elite swings show these moves and how that exhibit the low-left release. Very interesting.

 

Ya I think some of this is that if a player has already reached higher levels of ballstriking, they have already mastered this stuff. Of these high level ballstrikers, I’d be willing to bet that 9.5 out of 10 started golfing seriously at a young age. So if you talk to them about handle twist or grip roll or forearm rotation and crossover release they think it’s bad stuff.
 

But if you take the the 10 handicap whose mind is poisoned with 2d illusions and social media golf instruction bias, they could really benefit from learning this stuff. And high handicap slicers, for heaven sake, need to learn to twist and supinate their lead arm desperately. 

[PracticeSwinger]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

Ya I think some of this is that if a player has already reached higher levels of ballstriking, they have already mastered this stuff. Of these high level ballstrikers, I’d be willing to bet that 9.5 out of 10 started golfing seriously at a young age. So if you talk to them about handle twist or grip roll or forearm rotation and crossover release they think it’s bad stuff.
 

But if you take the the 10 handicap whose mind is poisoned with 2d illusions and social media golf instruction bias, they could really benefit from learning this stuff. And high handicap slicers, for heaven sake, need to learn to twist and supinate their lead arm desperately. 

And to think that those represent, what 90% of the golfing population? Having them look at a 'drag and hold' release, with a natural OTT tendency and not much clubhead speed will only enhanced that weak, way open face slice - and they'll just try to get rid of it by aiming more left and swinging their body harder - hello right of the planet banana

[Dewdman42]

how you set your club at the top will determine whether you have to supinate your leading arm during the downswing or not.  There is not one single way to get the face square.  
 

You guys keep showing a lot of forearm rotation after impact and nobody is arguing that.  It’s a moot point and by the way I thought this thread was about the trailing arm and whatever Cowen was trying to say.

 

I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.  This thread is becoming very religious and dogmatic.  I’m out 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Dewdman42

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

how you set your club at the top will determine whether you have to supinate your leading arm during the downswing or not.  There is not one single way to get the face square.  
 

You guys keep showing a lot of forearm rotation after impact and nobody is arguing that.  It’s a moot point and by the way I thought this thread was about the trailing arm and whatever Cowen was trying to say.

 

I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.  This thread is becoming very religious and dogmatic.  I’m out 

Not sure if this was directed at me, let's hope not, I'm always trying to keep it open minded.

 

I'm guessing the point was on trailing forearm and it's pronation through the hitting zone. MPStrat used Koepka as an example, the player that has the least amount of rate of closure of the clubface to illustrate.

 

My understanding of the 'drag and hold' school is that you want you agressive body driven pivot to provide the majority of the clubface closure in the impact zone, and that by doing so you reduce the rate and this is Manzella latest crusade, again, my understanding. While AMG, Manzella use their access to Gears to show that elite swings do in fact crossover quickly in the hitting area, and that lead forearm supination and trail forearm pronation (along with good wrist movements) is enabling this.

 

We can see that Koepka hands are on the trail side of his body before impact (where they are in relation to his shirt logo, his shooulder line) and that they are relatively at the same spot relative to his body just after impact - but that his hands have crossover due to his forearms and wrists movements. Again, just my understanding.

[Nels55]

2 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

My understanding of the 'drag and hold' school is that you want you agressive body driven pivot to provide the majority of the clubface closure in the impact zone,

I think that it is the opposite in that the body turn holds the face open or in other words stops it from closing too fast.   Open hips, strong grip, less rotation of the clubface.  LOL that's my understanding of the theory at any rate.

[MPStrat]

46 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

You guys keep showing a lot of forearm rotation after impact and nobody is arguing that.  It’s a moot point

I’m not intending to be rude to you at all, brother, but this statement shows a textbook lack of understanding of golf swing dynamics. I highly recommend that you watch this video. What you see happening on video is an illusion and things like GEARS data shows when things happen in real time but not how or why they happen in less than the blink of an eye.
 

Jacobs 3D has measured that these guys are lining up the golf club very early. They are not trying to shallow the shaft with their hands, arms and wrists, the change of direction is shallowing the club or blowing it back, but they are intending to supinate their lead arm and line up the club from the very top of the swing. What you see happening post impact started much, much earlier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

how you set your club at the top will determine whether you have to supinate your leading arm during the downswing or not.  

This is false.

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

3 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I think that it is the opposite in that the body turn holds the face open or in other words stops it from closing too fast.   Open hips, strong grip, less rotation of the clubface.  LOL that's my understanding of the theory at any rate.

We're saying the same thing, my wording wasn't clear. Meaning that you want to drag and hold your arms, not closing the face with any hands motion, while your body pivot closes the clubface. While others are saying, elite players don't 'release' that way, their forearms and wrists are proving the crossover in the impact area (body still opening obviously and not a stall flip save combo)

[Dewdman42]

Why are we talking about “drag and hold” school?  I said nothing of the kind. That is a red herring.
 

secondly if you look at all these great golfers you absolutely do not see trailing forearm pronatuon prior to contact.  I’m not sure if some of you are really that blind or if we just have a failure to communicate due to some long standing debate surround drag and hold which i have been no part of.

 

there is a reason you see many great people keeping their trailing elbow in close which goes against any theory that the trailing firearm is pronating in the downswing prior to contact.

 

also what we want to do and what Cowen was talking about was covering the ball with the trailing hand.  Pronating the trailing arm would be counterproductive to that.

 

But a lot depends on your grip or if you open the club face too much in the takeaway. 
 

i am still leaving this thread because I see it as fallacious, counterproductive and mean spirited on the part of some, not necessarily you.  Peace out.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Dewdman42

[Zitlow]

4 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

how you set your club at the top will determine whether you have to supinate your leading arm during the downswing or not.  There is not one single way to get the face square.  
 

You guys keep showing a lot of forearm rotation after impact and nobody is arguing that.  It’s a moot point and by the way I thought this thread was about the trailing arm and whatever Cowen was trying to say.

 

I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.  This thread is becoming very religious and dogmatic.  I’m out 

 

Setting the club shaft and face on plane in the backswing determines speed and direction. Otherwise people are stepping on the brakes when they should be accelerating. 

 

[RoyalTroon]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

...there is a reason you see many great people keeping their trailing elbow in close which goes against any theory that the trailing firearm is pronating in the downswing prior to contact.

 

This can be a mutually inclusive dynamic. 

[Hilts1969]

To complicate things both arms can Supinate at the same time. I believe that both arms start the downswing by gradually supinating then approaching impact the crossover happens.

 

Think of cradling a baby. Not an easy thing to do because we like to work the arms by moving them in the same direction. Using one arm to throw or hit a tennis ball is a doddle. Put the lead arm on the club though and it becomes much harder.

[PracticeSwinger]

2 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

To complicate things both arms can Supinate at the same time. I believe that both arms start the downswing by gradually supinating then approaching impact the crossover happens.

Yes and doing so moves your wrists in the correct pattern from the top, requires your lead wrist to flex and your trail one to extend

[Hilts1969]

2 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Yes and doing so moves your wrists in the correct pattern from the top, requires your lead wrist to flex and your trail one to extend

 

Agree and I think that's how people incl myself get into trouble. The right can only supinate a little so attempting it should lead to those wrist conditions and a loading of the right shoulder. 

 

It's an awkward feeling and add in tension  it's very easy to:-

 

Drop the right shoulder 

Open the face 

Over bend the trail elbow 

Stay on the right side too long

 

I'm very talented and can do all of them in one go:-)

 

 

 

 

[JayMas]

22 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

Why are we talking about “drag and hold” school?  I said nothing of the kind. That is a red herring.
 

secondly if you look at all these great golfers you absolutely do not see trailing forearm pronatuon prior to contact.  I’m not sure if some of you are really that blind or if we just have a failure to communicate due to some long standing debate surround drag and hold which i have been no part of.

 

there is a reason you see many great people keeping their trailing elbow in close which goes against any theory that the trailing firearm is pronating in the downswing prior to contact.

 

also what we want to do and what Cowen was talking about was covering the ball with the trailing hand.  Pronating the trailing arm would be counterproductive to that.

 

But a lot depends on your grip or if you open the club face too much in the takeaway. 
 

i am still leaving this thread because I see it as fallacious, counterproductive and mean spirited on the part of some, not necessarily you.  Peace out.

 

 

How would you "cover the ball" with the trail hand without pronating that forearm eventually? Seems impossible. I'm not saying it should be in a fully pronated position at impact, but it has to start or the palm of the trail hand will never actually face the ball if the trail forearm remained completely supinated.

 

Plus how could the rear forearm not pronate if the lead arm is supinating? The motions go together, do they not? 

 

My interpretation of Cowan's spinning down was actually that he is encouraging the forearm to pronate haha. Or at least intend that much earlier, so it happens at the right time.

Edited August 15, 2023 by JayMas

[PracticeSwinger]

24 minutes ago, JayMas said:

How would you "cover the ball" with the trail hand without pronating that forearm eventually? Seems impossible. I'm not saying it should be in a fully pronated position at impact, but it has to start or the palm of the trail hand will never actually face the ball if the trail forearm remained completely supinated.

 

Plus how could the rear forearm not pronate if the lead arm is supinating? The motions go together, do they not? 

 

My interpretation of Cowan's spinning down was actually that he is encouraging the forearm to pronate haha. Or at least intend that much earlier, so it happens at the right time.

I'm with you and that's what I got from the video, only caveat is that both forearms can supinate together (and they do from the top), puts your wrists in a great position. In the hitting area your trail forearm has to pronate, for the crossover to occur after impact, or else you're left with an open face coming in

[JayMas]

34 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

I'm with you and that's what I got from the video, only caveat is that both forearms can supinate together (and they do from the top), putting your wrists in a great position. In the hitting area your trail forearm has to pronate, for the crossover to occur after impact, or else you're left with an open face coming in

Great point, I guess I'd be interested in seeing if the correct sequence is both arms supinating right in the beginning of the transition, and then really p6ish is where the left arm continues that, and the right moves into pronation.

 

But it all happens so fast, that Cowan is basically telling people to feel the pronation earlier ("spin it down") because the initial supination that helps the wrists is happening as a result of earlier things. Plus the manzella video is basically saying the right arm pronation is absolutely starting before impact.

Maybe the whole downswing trigger should be "supinate then pronate" bang bang as your transition feel and almost feel like you do them almost simultaneously (a Monte cast A, cast B situation with that one being wrist focused, but each cast being sort of opposite of each other in a way like pronation and supination would be).

 

Anyway, just regurgitating random thoughts, but it's definitely interesting. The Manzella video was very interesting to me.

[MPStrat]

Very helpful videos, hopefully he does more of them. I see them most helpful in learning what looks shouldn’t be chased. Ie dragging forever through the bottom of the swing isn’t close to what the best players are doing and the best players are actually starting to line up the golf club for impact from the top of the swing despite what we see on camera. 
 

IMO lever education is extremely important, but if the body isn’t behaving in a complementary manner, you can have a phd in golf swing lever movement and hit it terrible. IMO, assuming that the “body” is working as it should is wishful thinking. Not saying anyone has made this claim, just sharing my opinion. The blowback Manzella talks about in the change of direction absolutely affects the golf club and therefore influences what the hands and arms are doing in the change of direction. 
 

 

 

[Ryan_PGM]

In reply to MPStrat. This is not meant to go down a rabbit hole, but I believe Mike Malaska tries to teach the same thing in regard to the video you shared. I haven't seen that one and appreciate you sharing it. 

[MPStrat]

27 minutes ago, Ryan_PGM said:

In reply to MPStrat. This is not meant to go down a rabbit hole, but I believe Mike Malaska tries to teach the same thing in regard to the video you shared. I haven't seen that one and appreciate you sharing it. 

Keen observation. Yes there are definitely similarities in theory. I believe Malaska demonstrates how he personally feels the tumble and makes a huge exaggeration but I don’t think everyone needs to feel it that way. The missing piece with Malaska is that he doesn’t really cover how to allow the blowback to happen in detail which a lot of people need to learn. Those who deal with the shaft being vertical or steep need to learn that first. 

[Ryan_PGM]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Keen observation. Yes there are definitely similarities in theory. I believe Malaska demonstrates how he personally feels the tumble and makes a huge exaggeration but I don’t think everyone needs to feel it that way. The missing piece with Malaska is that he doesn’t really cover how to allow the blowback to happen in detail which a lot of people need to learn. Those who deal with the shaft being vertical or steep need to learn that first. 

I would agree and it all comes down to "feel vs real". I would expect if most people tried the Malaska move without understanding they wouldn't get it. I find it entertaining that a lot of instructors like the ones talked about in this thread are basically trying to say the same thing. All of the angles you see are by-products of a feeling and a lot of the time the feeling is so foreign it doesn't make sense to people. My two cents anyway.  

[nova6868]

15 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Keen observation. Yes there are definitely similarities in theory. I believe Malaska demonstrates how he personally feels the tumble and makes a huge exaggeration but I don’t think everyone needs to feel it that way. The missing piece with Malaska is that he doesn’t really cover how to allow the blowback to happen in detail which a lot of people need to learn. Those who deal with the shaft being vertical or steep need to learn that first. 

 

Can you explain "blowback"? I haven't heard that term used before. Thanks. 

 

[Carlito]

Blowback  and spinning down the right arm to a spider man finish. 

You never miss a ball!

[Rdailey9108]

44 minutes ago, nova6868 said:

 

Can you explain "blowback"? I haven't heard that term used before. Thanks. 

 

I'm gonna venture to guess that it's the club coming down shallow and not kicking out right away. 

[Nard_S]

I think it's poor term to use for this. Blowback is the unintended and detrimental consequence of an action.

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

I think it's poor term to use for this. Blowback is the unintended and detrimental consequence of an action.

Poor term to use for what?