Danny Maude and Pete Cowen, role of the right arm

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, nova6868 said:

 

Can you explain "blowback"? I haven't heard that term used before. Thanks. 

 

Explained in this video

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Rdailey9108 said:

I'm gonna venture to guess that it's the club coming down shallow and not kicking out right away. 

It’s about what causes the club to shallow in the change of direction 

[Nard_S]

16 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Poor term to use for what? 

Please explain it because it's a valid question. What "blowback" are you specifically referring to? Blowback is an unintended consequence, (a backfire) that misfires an objective and is usually associated with public policy or politics, not a golf swing. You used the term and in the context of what you are wrote, it makes zero sense. I was trying to give you an opening to answer the guy's question, because I'm curious too.

[MPStrat]

33 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Please explain it because it's a valid question. What "blowback" are you specifically referring to? Blowback is an unintended consequence, (a backfire) that misfires an objective and is usually associated with public policy or politics, not a golf swing. You used the term and in the context of what you are wrote, it makes zero sense. I was trying to give you an opening to answer the guy's question, because I'm curious too.

Pretty simple concept. I encourage you to watch the video I linked for more detail.

Edited August 16, 2023 by MPStrat

[rondo01]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

You used the term and in the context of what you are wrote, it makes zero sense. I was trying to give you an opening to answer the guy's question, because I'm curious too.

manzella defined it (as he uses it) in the video and it’s describing what others have called “natural” shallowing. Seems a lot better than “natural” to me. 

[Hilts1969]

The change in direction doesn't cause the club to do anything unless you seek it. 

[Nard_S]

blowback

noun

blow·back ˈblō-ˌbak 

 

Synonyms of blowback

: an unforeseen and unwanted effect, result, or set of repercussions

[GungHoGolf]

29 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

blowback

noun

blow·back ˈblō-ˌbak 

 

Synonyms of blowback

: an unforeseen and unwanted effect, result, or set of repercussions

Yes, we know the dictionary definition of the word. We’re talking about Manzella’s usage of the word.

[Nard_S]

4 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Yes, we know the dictionary definition of the word. We’re talking about Manzella’s usage of the word.

Apparently Manzella doesn't.

So maybe her doesn't say that because the CC transcriptions says"blow this back" which is not same, and everyone talks wonky and they don't know what it means.

"Feel the gamma torque Luke".....please.

[MPStrat]

 

56 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Yes, we know the dictionary definition of the word. We’re talking about Manzella’s usage of the word.

Ya man,This is a very touchy topic. People will nitpick weird stuff.  😂 

 

Ok how bout: blow back

 

Malaska has been saying this for years, GG too. Now Manzella says it’s a measured fact. He says their 3D system makes Ping’s Enso look like third grade. Bold statement. 

 

The point Manzella is trying to make and I agree with is that, if you’re trying to lay down the shaft with the hands in transition, you are playing with fire. This is when you should already be lining up the club for impact. There isn’t enough time to make an effort to hand shallow in transition and then undo all of that in time for impact. Especially under pressure. 

 

But there are those who are chronically vertical with the shaft in transition and they often fight this issue their entire golfing lives. They can make a swing hand shallowing it on the range that looks nice, but they get on the course and steepen it like crazy. IMO this is because they know subconsciously there isn’t time to pull off stuff like this consistently. 
 

But how do they fix this issue? IMO:

 

They have to learn what blow back is, how to achieve it and why they don’t 

[rondo01]

Just saw the guys over at Elite post this…

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cvape7-gbRq/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[GungHoGolf]

2 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

Just saw the guys over at Elite post this…

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cvape7-gbRq/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Reminds me of Kawamura’s shallowing move.

[Nard_S]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Ya man,This is a very touchy topic. People will nitpick weird stuff.  😂 

Sorry the literal definition of ''blowback'' has zero to do with yours or Manzella's perceptions. The terminology is flat out off & wrong. Nothing touchy about it. It's just lousy use of language and that's all. Guy asked a question, I asked and you made us refer to an asinine video. Thanks for the waste.






It

[MPStrat]

18 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Sorry the literal definition of ''blowback'' has zero to do with yours or Manzella's perceptions. The terminology is flat out off & wrong. Nothing touchy about it. It's just lousy use of language and that's all. Guy asked a question, I asked and you made us refer to an asinine video. Thanks for the waste.

 

Nard, who hurt you buddy? 😊 

 

Just a golf discussion 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

Nard, who hurt you buddy? 😊 

 

Just a golf discussion 

Like how everyone pretends to understand something that's not really understandable not so much because it's advanced but because at its core, it's a simple idea conveyed in an idiotic way. You couldn't even explain it. "Watch the video"....I did, he's an idiot....can I have that 20 min. back? ''Gamma torque'', once you hear that nonsense you know he's a fraud. Who here understands that? Seriously?

 

[Carlito]

16 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Who here understands that? Seriously?

Agree. And some have the talent to make it even more complicated and confusing.

First two pages good stuff, rest waste of time. 

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Like how everyone pretends to understand something that's not really understandable not so much because it's advanced but because at its core, it's a simple idea conveyed in an idiotic way. You couldn't even explain it. "Watch the video"....I did, he's an idiot....can I have that 20 min. back? ''Gamma torque'', once you hear that nonsense you know he's a fraud. Who here understands that? Seriously?

 

This is a mess. Im going to let this be. 
 

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

This is a mess. Im going to let this be. 
 

The term is used in relation to trying to shallow the shaft via the hands and wrists, right? 

[nova6868]

I get what he's saying in the video, but I flushed all the alpha/beta/gamma torque stuff from my brain immediately. Don't want that in there. Haha.

 

[MPStrat]

Just now, nova6868 said:

I get what he's saying in the video, but I flushed all the alpha/beta/gamma torque stuff from my brain immediately. Don't want that in there. Haha.

 

I understand a regular golfer seeing these terms and it being off-putting. But they have been used widely for almost a decade in teaching circles and on golf forums, just not this one. The reason for that is Jacobs and Manzella haven’t really been in the mainstream putting out very much golf marketing for masses like an AMG, or Jake Hutt for instance. They have been doing more content for teachers and golf swing nerds. 

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

The term is used in relation to trying to shallow the shaft via the hands and wrists, right? 

I remembered an article a while back that discusses these terms:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/3-moves-to-smash-it

 

Speaking of blow back and getting too vertical with the shaft in the downswing

 

Also in this article:

 

If you tend to get too steep or over the top, here's where you want to focus. In a good downswing, the lower body shifts left and then the upper body turns and pushes into the left arm, which pitches the club into a slightly flatter, more horizontal position. 

[dap]

I agree with Manzella that the golfer should be actively tumbling the club on the downswing. People might say that would steepen the club and be over the top but not if you aim to hit the inside quadrant of the ball. Some have called it coming over the top from the inside and I think that’s quite accurate.

[Zitlow]

Mike Austin said if you're thinking about shallowing the shaft you're thinking about the wrong thing. 

 

[Nickc]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:27 PM, MMB1500 said:

I was just watching this. A really great and informative video. I always enjoy listening to Pete Cowen's wisdom. 

 

His description of "spinning the right forearm down" is gold. 

 

+👍

Just to put this thread back on its initial track

[Simpsonia]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:58 AM, Hilts1969 said:

To complicate things both arms can Supinate at the same time. I believe that both arms start the downswing by gradually supinating then approaching impact the crossover happens.

 

Think of cradling a baby. Not an easy thing to do because we like to work the arms by moving them in the same direction. Using one arm to throw or hit a tennis ball is a doddle. Put the lead arm on the club though and it becomes much harder.

 

Lead arm doesn't supinate until right before impact. It needs to get close to full unhinge in ulnar deviation before supination can start. Supination before ulnar essentially locks in the wrist hinge too early. At least according to all of the pros Tyler Ferrell has measured. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Simpsonia

[Hilts1969]

28 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

Lead arm doesn't supinate until right before impact. It needs to get close to full unhinge in ulnar deviation before supination can start. Supination before ulnar essentially locks in the wrist hinge too early. At least according to all of the pros Tyler Ferrell has measured. 

 

What does right before impact mean?

Do you class the downswing after transition or part of it?

How long does it take to turn a thought into an action?

I've also heard Tyler say pros supinate more and earlier than ams.

 

 

[Simpsonia]

22 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

What does right before impact mean?

Do you class the downswing after transition or part of it?

How long does it take to turn a thought into an action?

I've also heard Tyler say pros supinate more and earlier than ams.

 

 

 

If you're a subscriber to his site, check out his video "Unhinge Then Supinate", pretty much answers those questions. As for Ams, he's probably really getting to what Manzella was talking about where a lot of ams don't supinate in an effort to drag/hold, or supinate too early and then have to hold off through impact. Another good video of his on the subject is "Troubleshooting Supination"

 

Edit: Also the supination is not really a conscious thought. In another video, he says most of the supination is passive and comes from trail arm extension in his video "Get your supination from arm extension". 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Simpsonia

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

 

If you're a subscriber to his site, check out his video "Unhinge Then Supinate", pretty much answers those questions. As for Ams, he's probably really getting to what Manzella was talking about where a lot of ams don't supinate in an effort to drag/hold, or supinate too early and then have to hold off through impact. Another good video of his on the subject is "Troubleshooting Supination"

 

Edit: Also the supination is not really a conscious thought. In another video, he says most of the supination is passive and comes from trail arm extension in his video "Get your supination from arm extension". 

I'd guess that where Cowen's 'spin it down' is acting as the guide to what you're saying about Tyler's passive lead forearm supination - and that 'spin it down' is equivalent to 'gamma' (GD / Manzella) resulting in the crossover

[MPStrat]

I think it’s very difficult to separate the timing of the anatomical movements of the levers that line up the club for impact. Golfers might need to feel that one dominates or starts the motion, but to me, the movement toward flexion of the lead wrist and ulnar sort of go together with supination kind of like turning a screwdriver. It’s all one thing.
 

I think that could be why Pete simply uses the phrase “spin it down” in relation to the trail arm instead of going into great detail anatomically. 
 

In the change of direction it’s kind of a tug of war between the blow black and the effort to line up the club for impact. I think golfers can get into trouble when one or the other dominates their motion.

 

To use the screwdriver analogy, i think it’s most important that the golfer gets it started very early, but it isn’t really a race to twist as hard and as fast as possible, which as mentioned can create its own host of issues,  its more of a gradual thing. But starting too late will leave too little time. 

[David C]

11 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I think it’s very difficult to separate the timing of the anatomical movements of the levers that line up the club for impact. Golfers might need to feel that one dominates or starts the motion, but to me, the movement toward flexion of the lead wrist and ulnar sort of go together with supination kind of like turning a screwdriver. It’s all one thing.
 

I think that could be why Pete simply uses the phrase “spin it down” in relation to the trail arm instead of going into great detail anatomically. 
 

In the change of direction it’s kind of a tug of war between the blow black and the effort to line up the club for impact. I think golfers can get into trouble when one or the other dominates their motion.

 

To use the screwdriver analogy, i think it’s most important that the golfer gets it started very early, but it isn’t really a race to twist as hard and as fast as possible, which as mentioned can create its own host of issues,  its more of a gradual thing. But starting too late will leave too little time. 

 

The best way IMO to cue this spin it down movement is to focus on what you want the club to do.

Edited August 18, 2023 by David C