Don't wanna be a hooker anymore

[contramoto]

I've been playing about a dozen years. I've always had a strong grip, but now it's really ruining my game. I've spent the hours finding the bottom of my swing, on a good path and plane. (Sort of a stack and tilt type discipline).  Can now make really consistent good contact. A little thin now and then, but GI irons make that not a big deal. 
 

What is a big deal is that, if I just take a relaxed natural swing, I can hook a 135y 9i 30 yards. All of my focus and energy goes into holding the face open. So, half my shots are a push-fade and half are a big hook. I can play a round and make good clean contact with every swing and miss every target left and right, and by a lot. I'm money with a sand wedge and I putt above average. But driving and ball striking...it's a mess. I'm full of tension trying to manipulate the club face. I got down to an 11 at one point, and now I can't even break 90. It's all going backwards.

 

I've spent many hours and thousands of balls trying to hit with a neutral grip. I take the club back, and by the time I bring it back down to the ball, my right hand has managed to rotate under the grip. It's like my hand has a mind of its own and wants that blade pointing forward. Like swinging a hatchet. If I do manage to keep my hands neutral, I can't even hit the ball. It all just feels so alien.

 

I've tried one of those molded grip guides installed on an old 7i. After a few swings, my right hand is wrapped under that grip anyway. I've hit literally thousands of balls, doing punch shots that fade a little. Nothing sticks. My right hand has its own supercomputer proprioception that wants to feel the weight of the blade pointing out from my palm, rather than up through the "V."

 

Is there any method or style or approach that can possibly work with an overly strong grip? Stance, position...whatever. I'm willing to try anything.

 

Thanks in advance for any wisdom.

 

 

[Ajgaguy83]

Can we get a video of your swing? It would allow for more direct and helpful feedback.

[MPStrat]

This is a common problem. I started golfing late and I had a teacher who didn’t know how the trail hand is supposed to work band aid my swing by making my grip crazy strong. It didn’t really hurt my iron play all that much but it made driver a nightmare. 
 

If your trail hand isn’t educated properly, it’s going to always want to work under the grip.  That’s the only way it knows how to deliver the clubface. I don’t know of any good videos to recommend on the trail hand. Maybe someone can chime in with something good. 

[nvr3putt]

1 hour ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

Can we get a video of your swing? It would allow for more direct and helpful feedback.

It's available on P-hub. 😁

[MonteScheinblum]

Here’s the issue.  Nearly all hooks are a result of face being too open to some reference point.  Target, path, etc.  Your brain senses this and shuts it too much.  Things like weakening the grip and holding the face off just make it worse.  Likely issue is path is too far right.  Why that’s the issue can’t be known without seeing the swing.

Edited July 23, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

Jeff Smith had a good video on this 5 or 6 years ago which would be helpful to the op I wish I could find it.

 

If the face gets too strong, the body responds and really tilts back a ton to prevent the face from being to shut to the target at impact. This results in huge blocks and hooks. 
 

Excessively open club faces are such the norm in amateur golf that people with faces that are too strong can’t find much good information online. 

 

 

[phizzy30]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Here’s the issue.  Nearly all hooks are a result of face being too open to some reference point.  Target, path, etc.  Your brain senses this and shuts it too much.  Things like weakening the grip and holding the face off just make it worse.  Likely issue is path is too far right.  Why that’s the issue can’t be known without seeing the swing.

So would the solution be to "feel" more swinging left sensation?  Like Alex Noren's pre-shot routine. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by phizzy30

[Ajgaguy83]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

So would the solution be to "feel" more swinging left sensation?  Like Alex Noren's pre-shot routine. 

I’m guessing Monte will tell you we can’t know whether that will help because we haven’t seen the what’s causing the issue. Trying to apply “fixes” without knowing the root cause is not a recipe for success. 

[MPStrat]

29 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

I’m guessing Monte will tell you we can’t know whether that will help because we haven’t seen the what’s causing the issue. Trying to apply “fixes” without knowing the root cause is not a recipe for success. 

In this case, the op is asking a question about how to fix a very specific problem. He talks about in detail. Now, he could have woefully misdiagnosed himself, but his question can be answered. Some of the replies have assumed he has a problem other than what he describes. I’m not sure how helpful that is without seeing the swing. 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

So would the solution be to "feel" more swinging left sensation?  Like Alex Noren's pre-shot routine. 

Don’t know.  Have to address the why.

[MonteScheinblum]

59 minutes ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

I’m guessing Monte will tell you we can’t know whether that will help because we haven’t seen the what’s causing the issue. Trying to apply “fixes” without knowing the root cause is not a recipe for success. 

Correct.  Hypothetically……vertical shaft, right shoulder drops to shift oath right.  Swinging more left would be a complete and total disaster.

 

It’s why number chasing lessons are awful.  “Your path is 8* degrees right, you need to swing more left until it’s 2/3.”  
 

Under my scenario you go from a 5 cap fighting hooks to a 15 with a 2/3 right path.

[PostandGhost]

13 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Correct.  Hypothetically……vertical shaft, right shoulder drops to shift oath right.  Swinging more left would be a complete and total disaster.

 

It’s why number chasing lessons are awful.  “Your path is 8* degrees right, you need to swing more left until it’s 2/3.”  
 

Under my scenario you go from a 5 cap fighting hooks to a 15 with a 2/3 right path.

To play devil's advocate for going from a 5 to 15, he will be able to be a still shoot gross 75, net 60 once or twice a year by timing that face just right, paired with a hot flatstick.  All he has to do is figure out how to do that during the member guest and he becomes the most sought after partner in the tri-state area.  He'd be a dangerous man.

[tthomasgolfer605]

Ball goes left. Golfer aims right. Ball gets too far back making the grip effectively stronger. An inside out swing results from bad ball position. 

[Ajgaguy83]

55 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

In this case, the op is asking a question about how to fix a very specific problem. He talks about in detail. Now, he could have woefully misdiagnosed himself, but his question can be answered. Some of the replies have assumed he has a problem other than what he describes. I’m not sure how helpful that is without seeing the swing. 

 

It has nothing to do with that as the difference between feel and real is often orders of magnitude, especially when describing YOUR golf swing.

 

All we’re saying is, if you’re taking the time to diagnose this, seek improvement, etc. taking the time to go the one extra inch in this case, i.e. providing a video, isn’t asking much. It’s what’s is necessary. You could argue giving blind advice is negligent if you’re actually trying to help.

[Haroputt]

For me the the main reason for the hook is overactive right hand 

I play with neutral grip   My right hand moved more weak to reducing any “snapping” 

[naj959]

Fix the path. If it was just a face issue you'd probably just hit pulls. 

[moehogan]

OP, I feel your pain. When I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge from a side hill lie below my feet! 😎

 

An easy thing to try without making changes to your swing or grip position is increasing the grip pressure in the ring finger of your trail hand.  Different finger tendons connect to and activate different arm muscles that can influence the amount of club rotation.

 

Hit a few balls at the range with this and try to calibrate the amount of additional pressure needed to straighten out your shot. If it doesn’t help, no big loss!

[MPStrat]

20 minutes ago, naj959 said:

Fix the path. If it was just a face issue you'd probably just hit pulls. 

Thats not what happens when you have a right hand that’s way too strong. I had this issue years ago. The face gets too closed to the path. You end up needing an excessively left path to pull it or fade it. You can actually pull hook the ball with a neutral or reasonably left path if the right hand grip is too strong. Good golfers generally will take the other route and try to hold the face and hit big draws with irons and huge blocks and hooks with driver. 

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, moehogan said:

OP, I feel your pain. When I was a youngster I could hook a sand wedge from a side hill lie below my feet! 😎

 

An easy thing to try without making changes to your swing or grip position is increasing the grip pressure in the ring finger of your trail hand.  Different finger tendons connect to and activate different arm muscles that can influence the amount of club rotation.

 

Hit a few balls at the range with this and try to calibrate the amount of additional pressure needed to straighten out your shot. If it doesn’t help, no big loss!

You’re not allowed to answer the op’s question. The zealots simply will not have it. 

[MPStrat]

5 hours ago, Ajgaguy83 said:

All we’re saying is, if you’re taking the time to diagnose this, seek improvement, etc. taking the time to go the one extra inch in this case, i.e. providing a video, isn’t asking much. It’s what’s is necessary. You could argue giving blind advice is negligent if you’re actually trying to help.

all I’m saying is, I’m answering a pretty clear question about right hand grip. 

[MonteScheinblum]

50 minutes ago, Haroputt said:

For me the the main reason for the hook is overactive right hand 

I play with neutral grip   My right hand moved more weak to reducing any “snapping” 

That’s not the root cause.  Your right hand is taking over for a reason.

[badpokerbadgolf]

I suffered from similar issues after a long hiatus from golf when I returned.  Sounds like maybe early extension?  Hips come to far forward so your hands dont have enough space to move through the swing aggressively at the impact zone and it causes some ugly 2 way misses.  I fixed it by having a feel that my butt stayed back throughout the entire swing and not worrying about the hands were doing as much.  Just trying to create as much space as possible and turning hard through the ball. 

[Lefty_3Jack]

On 7/22/2023 at 11:34 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Here’s the issue.  Nearly all hooks are a result of face being too open to some reference point.  Target, path, etc.  Your brain senses this and shuts it too much.  Things like weakening the grip and holding the face off just make it worse.  Likely issue is path is too far right.  Why that’s the issue can’t be known without seeing the swing.

Is a path that is 3-5 in to out too far for an iron?  I assume the answer is, "it is if you cannot deliver the face consistently to match the path", but asking for a friend who also hooks short irons regularly and is suffering.... 

[dfeldss]

I'm also a chronic hooker. I do have a strong grip, but pretty sure my hooks are from stalling the hips and flipping it to save it. I've played nice fades with the same strong grip, but my sequencing has gotten all out of whack trying to improve the pivot i think.

 

Haven't touched a club in about a month though after playing the worst golf of my life for the last year or so, so curious to see what it looks like next time out.

[MonteScheinblum]

32 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Is a path that is 3-5 in to out too far for an iron?  I assume the answer is, "it is if you cannot deliver the face consistently to match the path", but asking for a friend who also hooks short irons regularly and is suffering.... 

it all depends on how you get there.  

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, dfeldss said:

I'm also a chronic hooker. I do have a strong grip, but pretty sure my hooks are from stalling the hips and flipping it to save it. I've played nice fades with the same strong grip, but my sequencing has gotten all out of whack trying to improve the pivot i think.

 

Haven't touched a club in about a month though after playing the worst golf of my life for the last year or so, so curious to see what it looks like next time out.

Stalling and flipping are symptoms, not the disease. 

[dfeldss]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Stalling and flipping are symptoms, not the disease. 

 

You're right. Should've highlighted that the pivot/sequencing is the disease. The stall/flip comes after to that to try to hit any semblance of a golf shot

[KMeloney]

This is where I am -- but I feel like I've finally gotten it under control.

 

I've embraced my strong grip. I just need to be mindful of a few things in the swing.

 

I have shortened my swing (I FEEL like it looks like John Rahm's swing, even if it really doesn't). If my arms run off too long in the backswing, I almost always shut the face down prior to impact. Keeping my backswing feeling like a half-swing keeps things completely under control.

 

I need to make sure that I make a full shoulder turn and allow the club to get behind me enough. When trying to change my path by getting the club more upright and down-the-line (instead of behind me) in the back swing, all that did was keep me from being able to swing from the inside. It would put my path very down-the-line -- and with a closing club face, that could often lead to a pull or pull-hook. With a strong grip, I need to make sure that my path is inside-out just enough to allow for a nice, small, controlled draw.

 

Along with these two other checks, I need to keep turning through the shot. Turning through the shot is a lot easier with a compact swing and an "early" shift to the left.

 

Incidentally, I've got a buddy who's a 1 whose grip is the strongest I've ever seen. Yes, he hits a big slinging draw as hit stock shot, but he can also fade the ball on command with the same grip. So, I wouldn't abandon the strong grip as the only foreseeable way to fend off the lefts.

[byoshio82]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:43 PM, contramoto said:

I've been playing about a dozen years. I've always had a strong grip, but now it's really ruining my game. I've spent the hours finding the bottom of my swing, on a good path and plane. (Sort of a stack and tilt type discipline).  Can now make really consistent good contact. A little thin now and then, but GI irons make that not a big deal. 
 

What is a big deal is that, if I just take a relaxed natural swing, I can hook a 135y 9i 30 yards. All of my focus and energy goes into holding the face open. So, half my shots are a push-fade and half are a big hook. I can play a round and make good clean contact with every swing and miss every target left and right, and by a lot. I'm money with a sand wedge and I putt above average. But driving and ball striking...it's a mess. I'm full of tension trying to manipulate the club face. I got down to an 11 at one point, and now I can't even break 90. It's all going backwards.

 

I've spent many hours and thousands of balls trying to hit with a neutral grip. I take the club back, and by the time I bring it back down to the ball, my right hand has managed to rotate under the grip. It's like my hand has a mind of its own and wants that blade pointing forward. Like swinging a hatchet. If I do manage to keep my hands neutral, I can't even hit the ball. It all just feels so alien.

 

I've tried one of those molded grip guides installed on an old 7i. After a few swings, my right hand is wrapped under that grip anyway. I've hit literally thousands of balls, doing punch shots that fade a little. Nothing sticks. My right hand has its own supercomputer proprioception that wants to feel the weight of the blade pointing out from my palm, rather than up through the "V."

 

Is there any method or style or approach that can possibly work with an overly strong grip? Stance, position...whatever. I'm willing to try anything.

 

Thanks in advance for any wisdom.

 

 

Play bigger grips. That’s helped me get rid of the lefts except for the occasional pull. 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Incidentally, I've got a buddy who's a 1 whose grip is the strongest I've ever seen. Yes, he hits a big slinging draw as hit stock shot, but he can also fade the ball on command with the same grip. So, I wouldn't abandon the strong grip as the only foreseeable way to fend off the lefts.

Strong grip is fine. Weak grip can be fine. Trail hand too far under the club, not fine. Trail hand too far on top of the club, not fine.
 

Some people do the double whammy by trail hand too far under, then close the face at address effectively making the grip even stronger. A grip that’s too strong or too weak can be death.